Idea!

[+woodsters]

Not sure if this has been brought up or not, but I will give it a shot.

 

Their is always talk about maintenance of caches. Many of us see that the real issue with "vacation caches" are maintenance. But not only with those type of caches. I had an idea on this. What if when you are logging a find on a cache that there is a section that you could mark stating that the cache needs maintenance. Then within, there can be a selection of common problems: broken container, needs new logbook, contents wet, no (or low amount/quality) trade items (for caches with trade items), and etc. This would be sent to the owner along with the report of someone finding it. Perhaps an icon can be made next to the cache on the listings annotating that the cache needs maintenance. This offers a few things. One the owner is made aware of maintenance issues, TPTB/Admin are aware, and it lets other cachers know. Many cachers feel that it's the caching community to help keep caches maintained. This is perfect for those people that feel that way. Some who people like to go and do those things and help each other out. Once the maintenance is completed, then TPTB/Admin should receive a message that it was completed. That way, the "flag" can be removed. Perhaps when a flag remains for a certain amount of time then the cache can be disabled and the owner notified, then after another amount of time of being disabled that if it's not taking care of then it's either archived or put up for adoption.

 

It was just a quick though, so don't tear me apart. I know that some people wil lmake some comments in the online logs, but many times the owners never read them. At least if they get an email saying maintenance needs to be done, then they will respond to it. This could also be seperate from making a log entry buy one of the options of where the others like "found it", "make a note" and etc are. It could at least send a seperate type of email to the email and marked as important.

[+Tallchick]

I'm new to geocaching, but given what I know so far, I would be willing to provide some cache maintenance for a vacation cache in my area (10-15 miles away or less). Of course, I live in one of those areas (Southeast Michigan) that isn't a high vacation destination.....

[+CYBret]

I don't know that this is a problem that is broken enough to require fixing. For the most part, we leave comments about maintenance needs in the logs and they either get taken care of by the owner or by another finder. I've brought new baggies, new containers, new logbooks and other things to cache sites myself.

 

I think as long as we're all pretty specific in our logs that the cache needs attention it gets taken care of more often than not.

 

Bret

[+sbell111]

That sounds like a great idea to me.

 

Perhaps there could be a checkbox un the log page that shows that the cache no longer needs maintenance. That way, if you report it as needing maintenance, as next finder, I can bring the required fix. Once I've fixed up the cache, I can report it so the flag on the page is removed. This would eliminate some of the work for the admins.

[+sbell111]

I don't know that this is a problem that is broken enough to require fixing. For the most part, we leave comments about maintenance needs in the logs and they either get taken care of by the owner or by another finder. I've brought new baggies, new containers, new logbooks and other things to cache sites myself.

 

I think as long as we're all pretty specific in our logs that the cache needs attention it gets taken care of more often than not.

 

Bret

My feeling is that if this were a flag on the page, the next finder would know what items to bring.

 

I rarely cache with a pack full of stuff anymore. The flag on the page would prompt me to bring in specific items to fix the cache.

[+sbell111]

Why don't you request that this thread be moved to the 'Geocaching.com Web Site' area?

[+av8tors32]

This is a great idea. I hit a vacation spot cache yesterday that needed some serious maintenace. If I had know I would have packed some stuff into the site to fix it. An indicatior on the cache listing would have definately alerted me.

 

Personally I try not to read too many of the postings until after I have looked for the cache myself. I hate reading spoilers, unless I have already logged a DNF.

 

This should be a fairly simple data field add to the cache posting. We just need to convince the powers that be....

[+SixDogTeam]

I take a complete cache with me in my pack (Container, readme notice, ziplock, log book, toys etc.) Then, Whatever a cache needs I can replace. Some just need a ziplock, but in some cases, the whole thing is missing (Like it was supposed to in a hole in a tree for example and has numerous Did Not Finds Logged) and I replace the whole thing, especially if I know the owner is notorious for non-maintenance or is inactive. In that case, I can't log a find, but future cachers can. The real problem is these guys who throw dozens of containers into the woods far from their homes and never go back.The only real solution is for cachers to help maintain the caches they find... Just carrying along a small 25-cent logbook in a baggy in your jeans will go a long way. The most prevalent problem I've encountered is waterlogged (no pun intended) logbooks.

 

LEAD DOG -- THE CACHE DOCTOR

[+Doc-Dean]

No offense Woodster but I think its not necessary...

It is somthing that is easily do-able in the logs for the cache.

If the cache owner is neglecting it, he/she is just as likely to ignore the notification you are proposing as he/she is to ignore the email with the log he/she receives after each activity event on the cache page...

 

IMHO...

[+woodsters]

That sounds like a great idea to me.

 

Perhaps there could be a checkbox un the log page that shows that the cache no longer needs maintenance. That way, if you report it as needing maintenance, as next finder, I can bring the required fix. Once I've fixed up the cache, I can report it so the flag on the page is removed. This would eliminate some of the work for the admins.

Yes that was sort of the idea on it, not sure if I mentioned it. I'm all for making it more automated and less work for the admin. But I think that there could be a part where the admins are notified of existing problems. Say ones that haven't ahd maintenance completed on them.

[+Doc-Dean]

There is another parallel thread going on right now called Old Caches...

 

I think my response there will also fit here so I am pasting it:

(Doc-Dean)

Why invite more institutional control on something that really doens't need it!!

 

Plus with institutional control, you now need someone to actually take time to reveiw all the data (paid position or volunteer) and if they take action, who is going to enforce it and how...

 

Seems to me it adds many different additional layers of complexity which are not needed.

[+woodsters]

No offense Woodster but I think its not necessary...

It is somthing that is easily do-able in the logs for the cache.

If the cache owner is neglecting it, he/she is just as likely to ignore the notification you are proposing as he/she is to ignore the email with the log he/she receives after each activity event on the cache page...

 

IMHO...

Doc....a lot of people do not even read the logs at all. I normally don't sit down and read the logs. everyonce in a while I will. Not my own caches , but ones I haven't gone after. Since I use the PQ's on my PocketPC. I usually don't read anything on the cache until I get there or in the area. Also as another stated here, they don't want to read them because of spoilers and etc.

 

The point of making it of where it flags the cache as well as notifying the owner is that for those that do carry and/or like to help with the caches will know ahead of time. For instance, there may be some caches that are within a few miles of my house. I don't sit there and read the logs all the time. But if I were skimming across the listings and see that there was a maintenance icon, I would check to see what was up with it. I may be able to go and fix it quickly for the owner. Not everyone is carries stuff to fix caches. Although some feel they should, it's not a requirement. Technically the cache belongs to the owner, and just like a pet, it's ultimately their responsibility. Although many of us will help out the cache for simple things from time to time. Also I don't carry my pack to every cache I go to with ziplocs, pens, pencils, and etc. Also some people won't put in their postings about maintenance needed. It's not saying that they would use the feature, but some may see it and remember a problem. Also if the email is ignored, then after a certain amount of time if the flag was not removed, then the admin can be notified and they can take action as deemed necessary. Or they could be notified when the maintenance flags are placed and keep an eye out on those caches.

[+Renegade Knight]

Flags in the main search listing would be a good idea for various reasons. An icon about where the TB/MOC icons are.

 

Cache Rescue Missions.

Cache up for adoptions.

Cache in need of TLC

 

It would be part of a larger means of providing a quick picture of the caches status.

 

These same Icons on the cache page in a special zone (maybe around the TB status zone) would let PDA apps pick it up.

Edited January 1, 2004 by Renegade Knight

[+Confucius' Cat]

If a cache owner does not read thier logs or the emails they get now, why would you think they will read a special email? I think sending another email would be a waste of bandwidth.

 

However, I think the check-box-icon thing is an excellent idea.

 

<QUOTE>I take a complete cache with me in my pack (Container, readme notice, ziplock, log book, toys etc.) Then, Whatever a cache needs I can replace. Some just need a ziplock, but in some cases, the whole thing is missing (Like it was supposed to in a hole in a tree for example and has numerous Did Not Finds Logged) and I replace the whole thing, especially if I know the owner is notorious for non-maintenance or is inactive. In that case, I can't log a find, but future cachers can. The real problem is these guys who throw dozens of containers into the woods far from their homes and never go back.The only real solution is for cachers to help maintain the caches they find... Just carrying along a small 25-cent logbook in a baggy in your jeans will go a long way. The most prevalent problem I've encountered is waterlogged (no pun intended) logbooks.</QUOTE>

 

Even just having a film can with log book could serve as a temproray replacement.

 

I have done this, too and I wondered how it would be taken by the owner. Would he be greatful? Would he be insulted, thinking, "CCdave thinks I am a bad owner"? In my case it was the former- I got a nice thank-you email from the owner (who in this case is a VERY active cacher with many, many hides)

 

I am not sure everyone would react the same.

 

My only concern with completely replacing the cache is, is it really gone? Or am I just not able to find it? (In my reference case, it was a re-visit so i know it was really gone)

 

To replace a cache that you cannot find could create a disservice to all if the cache in question is not really gone, but just hidden better than your new one.

Edited January 1, 2004 by ChurchCampDave

[Keystone]

You will be pleased to hear that Geocaching.com is already seriously considering this idea. Having a "cache needs maintenance" log type was suggested last month by one of the smart volunteers (not me), who observed that people are often reluctant to use the "cache should be archived" option. If the problem is repaired, then it doesn't need to be archived.

[+woodsters]

Good to hear Keystone. As far as the owner getting an email. Yeah I iomagine some will not look at it. But if it is marked differently and they know their cache could be archived, they may go and do soemthing, but then again, they may not care.

 

Keystone. You mentioned adding a log type it needs maintenance. What about having it add an icon in the search listings like it does the TB's and the cache types. That way people who may want to go out and do some maintenance on caches could or at least it will get the attention of the next cacher and they could check to see what it needs and possibly bring it to fix it. Also just like how it does in red at the top of the cache pages about caches are archived or disables, then maybe there could be an attention getter there too for the same thing.

[+Doc-Dean]

I am retracting my previous criticism of this idea... I think the icon to let other caches know that a cache needs help is very worthy.

 

I was getting hung up on lazy cache owners not doing anything with being told they need to maintain their caches.... etc...

[+rusty_tlc]

I am retracting my previous criticism of this idea... I think the icon to let other caches know that a cache needs help is very worthy.

 

.................

So right after Keystone endorses the idea you do an about face huh?

I see how it is.

[+Johnnie Stalkers]

I am retracting my previous criticism of this idea... I think the icon to let other caches know that a cache needs help is very worthy.

 

.................

So right after Keystone endorses the idea you do an about face huh?

I see how it is.

Apparently there is a nose attached to that big red eye.

[+hikemeister]

This does not strike me as a major problem. I carry a box in my trunk with extra containers, plastic bags, log books, pens, etc., and when I find a cache in need of something, typically just make the fix and let the owner know either by email or in a log. Found a very difficult multi-stage had lost one stage due to a fire -- the owner was not available to fix, so just replaced that cache container. No big one. Just common courtesy -- others do the same for me.

[+hikemeister]

I am retracting my previous criticism of this idea... I think the icon to let other caches know that a cache needs help is very worthy.

 

I was getting hung up on lazy cache owners not doing anything with being told they need to maintain their caches.... etc...

On a more serious note -- if Sauron wore a paper party hat, how long would it take until it was vaporized ?

[+rusty_tlc]

I am retracting my previous criticism of this idea... I think the icon to let other caches know that a cache needs help is very worthy.

 

.................

So right after Keystone endorses the idea you do an about face huh?

I see how it is.

Apparently there is a nose attached to that big red eye.

Yes but does the nose require maintainence? And should there be a place to log this requirment?

[+Johnnie Stalkers]

I am retracting my previous criticism of this idea... I think the icon to let other caches know that a cache needs help is very worthy.

 

.................

So right after Keystone endorses the idea you do an about face huh?

I see how it is.

Apparently there is a nose attached to that big red eye.

Yes but does the nose require maintainence? And should there be a place to log this requirment?

Apparently said nose is on fire and covered with KA KA. If it needs maint. the cache owner is gonna have to do it.

[+dzdiver]

I am new to geocaching and until this past weekend I have not done any multicaches. Last weekend my wife and I set out to do a multicache that involves 9 caches. Seven of them give clues (numbers) that must be put into the correct order by the 8th cache to find the last one. We found the 8 caches necessary to find the last one, however two of the logs were so wet that we could not read the clues. I noted this in my online logged visits and used the gc.com email feature to send two emails to the owner of the caches. Only 4 days have gone by since I sent the emails and the owner has yet to respond. I realize that this is during the holiday season, but the same owner has found the time to log a visit to a brand new cache in the same area. I am of the mindset that the ninth cache should be archived since it is not findable due to the clues being illegible. Guidance and feedback is appreciated.

[+woodsters]

I wouldn't archive it just yet dzdiver.....give them some more time...make a note on the cache page if you already haven't.

 

Hikemiester: Some others have stated that they do similar things. I have ziplocs, pens, and etc in my bag with me normally. But sometimes I don't take my bag with me. Depends on the cache. If it's a quick and easy one then I won't take it. If it's in an urban area where others are around, I won't take it normally. And sometimes I plain out forget it at home. Plus the bag isn't really big enough to carry a container, unless that is all that's in it. Some people will not fix a cache plain and simple, whether it's theirs or someone elses. I have gripe if it's theirs, but I do not expect them to do it if it isn't theirs. However, most people will fix them up and sometimes carry items. Many times they will see it mentioned in notes on the cache page and go out and repair it. The great thing about having a system like I stated would be that when you are searching for new caches to do, that there may be a little icon stating it needs maintenance. You can at least look to see what it's going to need so that way you don't have to carry in an entirely new cache. It may just need some ziploc bags or a pen or book. Some people will still carry everything. Many won't. This may also change ones mind about doing it, just like the above multi that couldn't be completed.

[+Doc-Dean]

[+woodsters]

Thief!

[+Doc-Dean]

Thief!

No disrespect!

 

[+woodsters]

Thief!

No disrespect!

 

[+dzdiver]

Today was the start of my weekend. The owner of the multi-cache still had not responded to my emails and online logs that his caches need attention. Since I was looking forward to locating the final cache in the multi, I figured I needed to try harder to contact the owner. I remembered that one of his full size caches had his direct email address and possibly phone number written on the container. Unfortunately this cache is also near a rain swollen creek right now. I remembered how to access the cache from the opposite side so I made some preparations to get wet and drove down. I surveyed the creek and then waded across. I got into about 3 feet to 3.5 feet of cold water. I found the cache and I was able to get the owners direct email and phone number. (The multicache that I had problems with was a micro and didn't have the contact information). After changing clothes and drying off, I was able to call the owner and talk with him. He said that he would do some maintenance on the logs in the next few days. After I was able to reasonably show that I had found the micros he provided the correct clues. I hope to find the final cache tomorrow!

 

After this experience, I would like to recommend that cache owners provide a contact phone number in their cache so that they can easily be contacted. Maybe the owners email was down or he doesn't routinely check it.

 

Regards,

 

Steve

[+ironman114]

Today was the start of my weekend. The owner of the multi-cache still had not responded to my emails and online logs that his caches need attention. Since I was looking forward to locating the final cache in the multi, I figured I needed to try harder to contact the owner. I remembered that one of his full size caches had his direct email address and possibly phone number written on the container. Unfortunately this cache is also near a rain swollen creek right now. I remembered how to access the cache from the opposite side so I made some preparations to get wet and drove down. I surveyed the creek and then waded across. I got into about 3 feet to 3.5 feet of cold water. I found the cache and I was able to get the owners direct email and phone number. (The multicache that I had problems with was a micro and didn't have the contact information). After changing clothes and drying off, I was able to call the owner and talk with him. He said that he would do some maintenance on the logs in the next few days. After I was able to reasonably show that I had found the micros he provided the correct clues. I hope to find the final cache tomorrow!

 

After this experience, I would like to recommend that cache owners provide a contact phone number in their cache so that they can easily be contacted. Maybe the owners email was down or he doesn't routinely check it.

 

Regards,

 

Steve

I'm not sure I would want to list my phone #. Might get too many calls for clues that are hard to ignore. Email work even if it takes some time. I was just down for several days cause I had to reformat my hard drive and lost all info I hadn't backed up. AlsoI couldn't get my drivers back for about 5 items including my modem and ethernet. I called Compaq and wasted 30 bucks and went thru 3 people and still no help. I fixed it the next day but had to wait till a non holiday to call and get the info I needed to get my dsl back. So I had no email for 3 LOng days. Ny comp still has no sound.

 

But I'm glad you did make such a determined effort to contact the owner.

[SE7EN]

I was just down for several days cause ...

Norton Ghost is a wonderful thing. It's saved me tons of work. Just do a basic install, include all of your drivers and programs for your basic computing needs, make an image, and put it on a CD.

 

There are other "drive imaging" programs out there that work well also. I just prefer Ghost.

 

Do this and you'll never worry about lossing all of your caching info.

[+ironman114]

was in the process of installing Norton system works when I lost everything.

[+crzycrzy]

Uh-Oh...

I don't know if anyone wants my opinion or not, but here goes anyway...

I think the idea of setting in place some sort of a system for notifying owners of a

cache site that there is an issue, however, leaving it up to the world at large to

fix sites in disrepair or missing is another issue altogether.

Why is this ? Because I have already been thinking (As a fairly new cacher myself)

about all the places and ideas to put my first cache site up.

If there were no rule to how many I can place, (And so far as I know there is not)

then I could go crazy putting them all over the place. The more I put, the more

there is for someone to maintain. Not by me, but by the community at large.

No big deal as long as only I do this, but multiply me by 13,000 members, and

there could be an enormity of caches which would become unmaintanable and

this would lead to a rather dull sport. Missing or outdated caches and the like.

Certainly a half million caches would make for more potential finds, but it creates

an unmanageable system when left as an honor system alone.

Also, we might begin to find ourselves at the receiving end of some nasty

legislation as most landowners and public land managers would get rather sick

of it quickly. Imagine having to know the differing laws of each state and/or

country in regards to geo-caching because they have differing laws in place to

regulate that which we have failed to regulate on our own.

But if the cache owner takes responsibility, he/she is far less likely to make one

at a great distance from home as it becomes impractical to maintain. This is why

the guidelines are that way. So that we exercise responsibility as well as enjoy the

sport. The present system is well maintained, and doesn't disintegrate under

the load because there is a degree of forced balance. Don't maintain the cache,

and the cache goes away.

So I for one must interject and though as I said before, I see your point, I also

see why things are the way they are. Whoever thought of that guideline thought it

through well. I for one am glad that someone has made an effort to keep things

in check so that the sport doesn't become an obstacle unto itself.

I can handle criticism to this viewpoint, but it makes sense to me at least.

Now I have nothing against alternatives such as allowing vacation caches to be

marked as a vacation cache and allowing the finder to either remove the cache

or to adopt it at their choice. This could be a differing method for allowing the

maintenance of "vacation" style caches...

My two and .5 cents.

Edited January 4, 2004 by crzycrzy

[+woodsters]

Uh-Oh...

I don't know if anyone wants my opinion or not, but here goes anyway...

I think the idea of setting in place some sort of a system for notifying owners of a

cache site that there is an issue, however, leaving it up to the world at large to

fix sites in disrepair or missing is another issue altogether.

Why is this ? Because I have already been thinking (As a fairly new cacher myself)

about all the places and ideas to put my first cache site up.

If there were no rule to how many I can place, (And so far as I know there is not)

then I could go crazy putting them all over the place. The more I put, the more

there is for someone to maintain. Not by me, but by the community at large.

No big deal as long as only I do this, but multiply me by 13,000 members, and

there could be an enormity of caches which would become unmaintanable and

this would lead to a rather dull sport. Missing or outdated caches and the like.

Certainly a half million caches would make for more potential finds, but it creates

an unmanageable system when left as an honor system alone.

Also, we might begin to find ourselves at the receiving end of some nasty

legislation as most landowners and public land managers would get rather sick

of it quickly. Imagine having to know the differing laws of each state and/or

country in regards to geo-caching because they have differing laws in place to

regulate that which we have failed to regulate on our own.

But if the cache owner takes responsibility, he/she is far less likely to make one

at a great distance from home as it becomes impractical to maintain. This is why

the guidelines are that way. So that we exercise responsibility as well as enjoy the

sport. The present system is well maintained, and doesn't disintegrate under

the load because there is a degree of forced balance. Don't maintain the cache,

and the cache goes away.

So I for one must interject and though as I said before, I see your point, I also

see why things are the way they are. Whoever thought of that guideline thought it

through well. I for one am glad that someone has made an effort to keep things

in check so that the sport doesn't become an obstacle unto itself.

I can handle criticism to this viewpoint, but it makes sense to me at least.

Now I have nothing against alternatives such as allowing vacation caches to be

marked as a vacation cache and allowing the finder to either remove the cache

or to adopt it at their choice. This could be a differing method for allowing the

maintenance of "vacation" style caches...

My two and .5 cents.

crzycrzy, you have hit on some good points there. Some I tend to agree with, some I don't. I think that the ultimate maintainer of the cache is the owner. I have no problem with helping out with some immediate problems of a cache. Many times I often have some ziploc bags, pens, and etc with me. I do not however carry an entire container with me. To me, it's not feasible to carry an empty container in my pack (small). It's already got enough other stuff.

 

Unfortunately though, many cache owners go astray. Whether if they quit, or perhaps someone in the military that gets deployed (a cache is the last thing in their mind to take care of before they go).Some of those caches are great caches. Many people kind of adopt them unofficially. Many people also believe in being a good Geo-Samaritan. On the vacation cache thing, the main reason for restrictions on them, is maintenance, point blank. Doesn't matter on the distance. Caches will not be taken care of, if the owner doesn't take care of them. A cache owner is the only one that can determine if they can properly maintain a cache. There's a question on properly maintaining and it's left open. There is no definitive answer of what an allowed amount of time would be for an owner to check on problems. There's also a question on the distance away. Let's say if an approver will not approve anything over 150 miles away for instance (seeing as no other requirements are met). So if a person wants to put one 151 miles away, will they be turned down? Technically, they should, humanly, maybe not. But then it keeps extending and extending. Each approver is different. The guidelines are just that and they are vague. They leave a lot for the approvers to flex.

 

I agree that there should be a limit on the amount of caches a person places. Many disagree with that, but there are various reasons I can think of. I won't list them now as this posting is getting rather long.

 

The system I was talking about and in which keystone said they are considering is to notify not only the owner, but the cachers, that this cache indeed needs some maintenance. It should be ultimately the owners responsibility, but those Geo-Samaritans out there might want to help out. Plus they might know the owner and know the owner is away or unable to do it. Plus if I know ahead of time that a cache needs a certain thing, then I will be more apt to bring it along to help out. I would happily sign the new log, TN left new log...

[+crzycrzy]

Yup. We pretty much agree.

Who cares about the semantics ?

See you in the field !

[+Alan2]

auto-special email to hider sounds good.