What to do about Ownerless caches

[Geomonkeys]

Here in aus there are several caches still appearing as available, that have been "lost" either plundered, or cleaned up by varius councils. the problem is , the owners of the caches, dont seem to be around any more to clean up/archive thier caches.

how do we go about sorting out these problems?

[+erik88l-r]

That's a tough question, and one I believe has been bantered about in these forums before. There are caches out there that are still out there, but because they haven't been found in a year are assumed gone. Some people won't hunt a cache that has three sad faces in a row on the most recent logs, others consider it a challenge. I always scan the most recent logs before going out to check for that.

 

Then again, if someone posts pictures of the remains of a plundered and broken cache and the owner does nothing then it should be archived by Jeremy or another admin. IMHO

[+Dekaner]

When someone comes across one of these caches, why not check the logs for active geocachers and ask that someone adopt it?

 

- Dekaner of Team KKF2A

[+Salvelinus]

Jeremy, et al.

 

Would you consider permanetly archieving a cache if the owner has mentioned that it "probably dosen't exist and I live to far away to confirm it".

 

I know of a Cache that has had three no finds in a row. I wanted to look for it, so I e-mailed the owner and got the above response. In my e-mail I encouraged him to archieve it, but I don't want to be a pest. It is still active, however the cacher seems somewhat inactive.

 

Can we forward "crediable" information such as these types of e-mails to the admin. relating to the possible archieving of a cache that may not exist? If so, can/will the admin act on the matter after review of the information?

 

I realize that you are pretty busy folks. But, is there a better way?

 

Regards,

Smoochnme

 

"He who hesitates is lost"

[+culpc]

I like the idea of adopting "orphaned" caches. There needs to be some system in place for determining the orphan status of the cache. Society is so mobile, today, that adoption may be a viable alternative!

 

Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son.

[+Markwell]

I posted my response in this thread earlier today, but here it is again. I think those in the area that are long-time cachers and active in the area should keep an eye out for caches that are getting listed as not found, but the owner doesn't respond. If either the owner doesn't care about the cache anymore or can't be contacted, I'd rather see them adopted by active cachers.

 

Currently, this can be done through the main contact at Geocaching.com - Jeremy et al

 

Markwell

[Syn]

Attn Jeremy

 

I volunteer to be the one to handle the aspect of abandoned cache's.

 

Hammer me off an email as to how you feel about this.

 

I am sure we can come up with a clear protocol to abandonded caches.

 

waynepdx

[+briansnat]

Three to four not founds in a row doesn't mean a thing. I've seen many logs with that, then suddenly a find. It would be a good idea for someone who found the cache before, to volunteer to check and see if it is indeed there. If anybody is concerned that a cache has gone missing and the cache owner is unresponsive, perhaps an email to previous finders to solicit a volunteer might be in order.

 

I think it would be worse to archive a cache that is actually out there (at which point it becomes litter), than to leave it active and have people post not founds.

 

We have to "police" this sport ourselves to some extent. We can't expect Jeremy to handle every possible problem (what do we think he is, Congress?).

 

Now caches that are obviously gone and I mean those where the remanants are strewn about, are a horse of another garage. In those cases they should be archived if the owner doesn't resopond or replace it within X amount of time; 6 months just to throw out a number.

 

[This message was edited by BrianSnat on May 23, 2002 at 04:22 AM.]

[BassoonPilot]

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrianSnat:

Three to four not founds in a row doesn't mean a thing. I've seen many logs with that, then suddenly a find. It would be a good idea for someone who found the cache before, to volunteer to check and see if it is indeed there. If anybody is concerned that a cache has gone missing and the cache owner is unresponsive, perhaps an email to previous finders to solicit a volunteer might be in order.

---

 

All good ideas and suggestions.

 

But I've got to say, I'm getting a little sick and tired of cache owners who are less-than-diligent about maintaining their caches, yet refuse to archive caches that have been reported as missing (by previous finders or the cache owner proper) for many months ... or longer.

 

I really would like to see an automatic notification sent to the owner of any cache not recording a "find" log within the previous 6 months that directs the cache owner to verify the condition and existence of the cache. If the owner fails to respond to the notification within a specified time period, the cache would be automatically archived.

 

Though this might add to the "cache as trash" problem slightly, it might also motivate a few owners.

[+parkrrrr]

quote:

---

I really would like to see an automatic notification sent to the owner of any cache not recording a "find" log within the previous 6 months that directs the cache owner to verify the condition and existence of the cache. If the owner fails to respond to the notification within a specified time period, the cache would be automatically archived.

---

 

I think that any such automated system should, at the very least, be revised to only start the process of archiving or transferring ownership of the cache if there were "not found" logs posted in the same amount of time. Otherwise, there's a good possibility that nobody's even tried to search for it yet, or that everyone's waiting for better weather (for example, a cache high up in the mountains might only be accessible for a few months in the summer.)

 

Also, I don't think it should just archive the cache automatically upon getting no response from the owner. Perhaps suspending the cache would be a better idea. If there could be an "adopt this cache!" link on the page while it's suspended, so much the better: then someone who has previously found it could adopt it and archive it if she has personally verified that it's missing, or someone else who's found it could adopt it and take over the chore of responding to the monthly "your cache has not been found in six months..." notifications while cajoling local geocachers into searching for it.

 

[+joedohn]

What's needed is a feature showing the last date the cache owner viewed their cache web page (and make it visible to all).

 

If there are a series of failed hunts and you can see by a glance that the cache owner hasn't viewed their web page for a month (or more) then you have a better idea if it's been abandoned.

[+rdw]

Good idea... except that there is little reason to visit the cache page since the log text goes out in the found emails. A "last visit" display could give a false impression of the owners involvement.

 

rdw

[+The Cheeseheads]

quote:

---

Originally posted by BassoonPilot:

 

I really would like to see an automatic notification sent to the owner of any cache not recording a "find" log within the previous 6 months...

 

Originally posted by Warm Fuzzies - Fuzzy:

I think that any such automated system should, at the very least, be revised to only start the process of archiving or transferring ownership of the cache if there were "not found" logs posted in the same amount of time. Otherwise, there's a good possibility that nobody's even tried to search for it yet, or that everyone's waiting for better weather (for example, a cache high up in the mountains might only be accessible for a few months in the summer.)

---

 

This is probably the best idea I have seen. Perhaps another cache status needs to be added to the system. In addition to "archived" and "deactivated", perhaps there also needs to be something along the lines of "potentially abandoned".

 

After six months of no activity, an automatic email would be sent to the owner, directing them to visit their cache page and click on a link to verify that they still are active.

 

If there is no response after a week, the cache would be moved into the "potentially abandoned" status.

 

At this point, it gets a little gray, though. Perhaps after a month, if there is still no response from the owner, the cache gets archived? How about a page listing all the abandoned caches in an area which the local geocachers could use to check to see if they still exist or not. The page could then let you report back as to whether a cache is missing, plundered, damaged, still functional, etc. From there, a case-by-case decision can be made as to what to do. Archive the cache, transfer ownership, etc.

 

Jeremy and crew really need to get something put into place, since as the number of total caches gets bigger and bigger, this problem will come up more and more frequently.

 

[+Markwell]

That's the best suggestion I've seen. I've never been a fan of "automatic archiving" when a cache hasn't been found or looked at. However a notification process where the hider has ample time to respond, and then the cache is only placed on a "watch list" is a good idea.

 

Then humans can intervene and indicate, yes the cache is gone and should be archived or that it's still there and make an offer to adopt if the owner doesn't show up.

 

Markwell

[+Crusso]

I agree with the automatic emails after 6 mos, etc. I think what we also need is a seperate place (sort of like the "Locationless Caches" button, but by area) that we can click on where caches can be posted that are "potentially missing, abandoned, etc". When the email is sent out to the owners, they should be put on this page. Then any adventurous cachers in the area can check on them, report back & maybe even adopt them if they are still viable. It would sort of add yet another type of hunt to the sport. Maybe even have a seperate tally on the find page for "Recovered Caches". It would also allow cachers to recycle existing pages by placing new caches in them if the area is viable. Admin...?

[+Crusso]

I agree with the automatic emails after 6 mos, etc. I think what we also need is a seperate place (sort of like the "Locationless Caches" button, but by area) that we can click on where caches can be posted that are "potentially missing, abandoned, etc". When the email is sent out to the owners, they should be put on this page. Then any adventurous cachers in the area can check on them, report back & maybe even adopt them if they are still viable. It would sort of add yet another type of hunt to the sport. Maybe even have a seperate tally on the find page for "Recovered Caches". It would also allow cachers to recycle existing pages by placing new caches in them if the area is viable. Admin...?

[+joedohn]

Although the above scenario sure seems viable, I wonder if a more local community based solution and less geocaching.com-centric wouldn't be more workable.

 

I suggest a continuing forum topic on abandoned caches in each individual region. My guess is, the regions with the largest numbers of active and responsible cachers (willing to deal with this problem) will also be the regions with the most need for self policing of cache litter. The forum can be the place that derelict caches can be discussed, investigated, retrieved and then archived by request to geocaching.com.

 

I think using the forums as the base for dealing with abandoned caches will have a couple of beneficial side effects; a) it will help develop community cohesion to deal with future issues and raise the 'visibility' level manyfold of the problem of abandoned caches.

 

The 'visibility' part seems real important to me right now. Besides having a method of dealing with problem caches I think working the problem from the front end is needed also. I'd like to see geocaching.com have a statement of some sort placed on the front page of the website to the effect of 'don't let your cache become trash'. Maybe add it to the 'Cache in Trash Out' paragraph.

 

rdw punched a logical hole in my earlier suggestion of listing cache owner's visits to their cache pages, but I still think the idea could be a helpful component to managing bad caches. Making and hiding the cache is only half the formula. Using the computer is the other half. I believe tracking cache owners visits to their cache pages would be a quicker and more reliable (though not infallible) way of judging the cache owner's interest in their own caches. This could be accomplished by no longer sending the text of logins through email or by just requiring cache owners to view their web pages at least monthly (or bi-monthly, whatever) to avoid them being made inactive. I know many game sites do this to clear out the backlog of no longer utilyzed accounts. Hotmail just began doing this also.

 

Like everybody else in this thread, I think this is a problem needing pretty quick action and I believe community pressure on cachers to tend to their caching responsibilities will be more effective than pressure coming principally from geocaching.com.

[BassoonPilot]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Warm Fuzzies - Fuzzy:

 

I think that any such automated system should, at the very least, be revised to only start the process of archiving or transferring ownership of the cache if there were "not found" logs posted in the same amount of time. Otherwise, there's a good possibility that nobody's even tried to search for it yet, or that everyone's waiting for better weather (for example, a cache high up in the mountains might only be accessible for a few months in the summer.)

---

 

I suppose the person who placed/owns the cache would know that information, and could temporarily disable the cache for that period of inaccessibility.

 

But I think the existence of caches that have never been found need to be periodically (re)verified.

 

For example, there is one cache in my area that nobody has apparently ever sought, placed on a rather inaccessible island. It has been in place almost a year, and the cache placer freely admits he has no idea if the cache still exists. (At least this owner is accessible!) I can think of at least a dozen other examples where caches have never been found and owners have never posted an update to their page.

 

quote:

---

Also, I don't think it should just archive the cache automatically upon getting no response from the owner. Perhaps suspending the cache would be a better idea. If there could be an "adopt this cache!" link on the page while it's suspended, so much the better

---

 

I like the idea of suspending the cache for a short period of time before the cache is automatically archived if the owner hasn't responded within the specified time period. This would allow for an "adopt a cache" or "adopt a location" procedure, and if no one claimed the location by a specified date,it would then be automatically archived.

 

That leaves ample opportunity for "human intervention."

[thebmrust]

I just got my first GPS and heard about the geocaching fun. But I am leaving the area I am familiar with.

I was ready to put my first cache out, but after reading the posts, it looks like that by doing so, and eventually leaving the area (and orphaning the cache) it is somewhat frowned on.

So, I will have to bide my time and place a cache in the late summer or fall.

 

"It's not what you know, but what you don't know."

--------------------------------------------------

"I am a legend in my own mind."

[+Markwell]

quote:

---

Originally posted by thebmrust:

So, I will have to bide my time and place a cache in the late summer or fall.

---

 

Or you could find another cacher in the area that would be willing to take over your cache maintenance once you leave.

 

Markwell

Chicago Geocachers

[+Team WO9LF]

Take a look at This Cache starting from my May 20th log.

I e-mailed the Cache owner and never got a response. The Cache is still there, but not in it's correct spot. It was also in need of a little TLC. I am thinking of trying to place it back to its original spot and re-stocking it, but I hate to do that to a Cache that doesnt belong to me unless I have the owners permission. Since I got no E-mail response, I am not sure what to do.

I left it within 3 feet of where we found it, but the finder after me moved it quite a bit. That scares me because we all know that GPS's can have a bit of variance in accuracy, and I am not sure moving that far was the correct thing to do.

I guess I was just wondering what you all think would be the best thing to do in this situation...Archive it, give it the TLC it deserves by restocking and moving it to its intended place, or nothing at all?

 

Thanks!

 

Laugh now, but I've got plenty to do when I'm the last person on the planet

[thebmrust]

Well, I thought about finding an adopter. We'll see. I really want to do this, but I want to make sure it's respobnsible too.

 

"It's not what you know, but what you don't know."

--------------------------------------------------

"I am a legend in my own mind."

[+Team StitchesOnQuilts]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Team WO9LF:

Take a look at http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=7971 Cache starting from my May 20th log.

I e-mailed the Cache owner and never got a response. The Cache is still there, but not in it's correct spot.

---

 

I think this is one of those things where the best you can do is do whatever's within your comfort zone and don't fret, otherwise. It's not your responsibility, after all - if you choose to do something, you're helping the owner of the cache out.

 

That said, based on the entries I saw, I personally would probably make a best guess as to where the cache was originally located, refurbish the cache a bit, and put it back where I thought it was originally located. Then I'd send email to the owner telling what I'd done. I'd include a spoiler (encrypted) in my log entry if it seemed necessary. (The animal chew marks on the lid is what pushed me over into thinking I'd help.)

 

If the owner yells at you for having helped, then you know not to help that person in the future.

 

But I think that you've gotta take it on a case by case (or is that cache by cache) basis. If you do what "feels right", at least you've pleased SOMEBODY, right?

 

Shannah

[+Team StitchesOnQuilts]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Team WO9LF:

Take a look at http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=7971 Cache starting from my May 20th log.

I e-mailed the Cache owner and never got a response. The Cache is still there, but not in it's correct spot.

---

 

I think this is one of those things where the best you can do is do whatever's within your comfort zone and don't fret, otherwise. It's not your responsibility, after all - if you choose to do something, you're helping the owner of the cache out.

 

That said, based on the entries I saw, I personally would probably make a best guess as to where the cache was originally located, refurbish the cache a bit, and put it back where I thought it was originally located. Then I'd send email to the owner telling what I'd done. I'd include a spoiler (encrypted) in my log entry if it seemed necessary. (The animal chew marks on the lid is what pushed me over into thinking I'd help.)

 

If the owner yells at you for having helped, then you know not to help that person in the future.

 

But I think that you've gotta take it on a case by case (or is that cache by cache) basis. If you do what "feels right", at least you've pleased SOMEBODY, right?

 

Shannah