Magellan Contest Rigged?

August 17, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by The Leprechauns:
When the coordinates for the original and bonus Pittsburgh treasures are released, I can assure you that they will be accurate within the normal range we're used to as geocachers.

I am, of course, disqualified from participating in the contest. I wish everyone else good luck!

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

Next time, instead of getting married, I think I'll just find a woman I don't like and buy her a house.

So I must ask about the orginal cache. Was it buried like the newpaper article said? Will we hear to full story about the first cache?

9.1k · August 17, 2003

1. The first Magellan cache is NOT buried. It is hidden in a traditional manner.

2. The cache is still in place. All I did was verify its presence and accuracy of the coordinates (my readings were 40 feet off). The article incorrectly states that I retrieved the cache in order to hide it in a different spot.

3. I will be hiding the bonus cache. Obviously I will not say anything about where it will be hidden, but I will say that it will be hidden in a manner designed to give geocachers an advantage over the people who read about the treasure hunt in the newspaper.

4. If you are going to be a vocal critic of something, then you ought to be willing to help fix things if you are asked to, and are in a position to help. "Don't be a part of the problem, be a part of the solution."

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

Next time, instead of getting married, I think I'll just find a woman I don't like and buy her a house.

9.1k · August 17, 2003

Oops. Double post.

To avoid wasting this space, I will tell you the coordinates for the first Magellan cache. It's at North 40 something, West 80 something.

[This message was edited by The Leprechauns on August 17, 2003 at 07:29 PM.]

August 17, 2003

Yep! The squeaky wheel always gets the grease!!!!!

Dogs Have Owners....Cats Have Staff!!

August 17, 2003

Hey, Lep, does that mean that the coords for the original cache will be released and then a second cache will be placed later in the Magellan contest? Also, is the original cache somewhere that we have enough info to find?

[This message was edited by TimInOhio on August 17, 2003 at 11:24 PM.]

August 18, 2003

I don't have any details on these 2 Pittsburgh caches, but I can tell you from talking to someone at Magellan that the contest is over at the end of the month. If they keep the tradition of releasing these on Saturday, then it will be either this weekend or next.

Some things are lost, some left behind.

Some things are better left for someone else to find.

August 18, 2003

Some of our Pittsburgh vets are famous now.

Click for the article

::+::=::+::=::+::=::+::=::+::=::+::=::+::=::+::=::+::=::+::=::+::=::+::

Searching through the cave. Team VaxCave.

August 18, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by The Leprechauns:
4. If you are going to be a vocal critic of something, then you ought to be willing to help fix things if you are asked to, and are in a position to help. "Don't be a part of the problem, be a part of the solution."

BTW, I am glad that you got involved to help put this thing on track... I read reading Magellan's site, there was a funny post by someone going by the name "Magellan Rules"

<snip>

Magellan what are you thinking? There was a article this weekend the Pittsburgh Trib talking about the original hunt. It stated that you gave the treasure to a certain person to rehide. Did you know that this person has been bashing you? This person has stated he owns a Garmin unit and would never use anything else. This person also posted a new cache in Settlers Cabin right after the incident and called it "Magellan Sucks". This is the person you gave to hide your treasure. SHAME ON YOU!!! You could have someone who is happy with Magellan and uses your product. I know that besides myself a few others who uses and are very happy with YOUR PRODUCT. Don’t be surprised if the coordinates are wrong again, after all he is using a Garmin.

</snip>

I guess you can't be loved by all...

Oh yea, and I do trust your mad skills with your Garmin...

9.1k · August 18, 2003

DeskJocky, thanks for the chuckle. I hadn't yet seen that post on the Magellan page. Obviously, Thales had read my fairly opinionated writings about the treasure hunt. Their P.R. director mentioned this as a specific reason why they contacted me to help out. I appreciated this gesture, as it shows that the company is trying to make things right.

As for my skills in marking a waypoint, while I am usually pretty good, don't we also need to mention the experience that you and others had at The Elves Tree a Raccoon? Hiking up and down steep hills for 3 miles only to be skunked on a stage one micro whose coordinates were off by 180 feet. Yeesh. Bad coords happen, even to a so-called expert like me. But the coords on the second Magellan Treasure Hunt will be the most accurate fix I'll ever mark!!!

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

Next time, instead of getting married, I think I'll just find a woman I don't like and buy her a house.

August 18, 2003

I found it quite entertaining that they had to create a new account to make that particular post.

I am moving along!

August 18, 2003

I don't know about anyone else, but I know where the Leprechaun lives and I'm going to be staking out his house and following him around everywhere until he hides the treasure.

If I don't use this knowledge to my advantage, SOMEBODY ELSE WILL.

If that does't work, I'm going to sneak into his house, steal Little Lep's hamster, and ransom it for the coordinates.

Johnny

August 18, 2003

Then I am going to sue Quest Master because I hurt myself when I fell off my chair laughing so hard.

I am moving along!

August 18, 2003

quote:
If I don't use this knowledge to my advantage, SOMEBODY ELSE WILL.

Don't worry, I have already hacked into his GPS, phone, computer, fax and laptop (I don't mean his laptop computer, I mean his actual lap) to be sure that I can again have the advantage on this one...

-- Alan "The Master Hacker" Freed

9.1k · August 18, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by alansfreed:
I have already hacked into his ... laptop (I don't mean his laptop computer, I mean his actual _lap_) ...

-- Alan "The Master Hacker" Freed

Was it as good for you as it was for me?

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Next time, instead of getting married, I think I'll just find a woman I don't like and buy her a house.

August 18, 2003

quote:
Was it as good for you as it was for me?

Maybe even better!

PS -- I'm looking forward to locating some of your hides since you have several in my neck of the woods. I hunted for Elves in the Forest with my daughter last weekend, but we got stuck in a storm during the search.

[This message was edited by alansfreed on August 18, 2003 at 01:00 PM.]

9.1k · August 18, 2003

Alan -

"Elves in the Forest" was my first hide, and still gets frequent visits and good reviews. Thank you for putting it on your list. I am sure that you and your daughter will enjoy it on a day with better weather.

I had the privilege of being the first finder of your "Punxsutawny Phil in a Panek" cache, which had some of the nicest cache goodies I've seen in awhile.

I am glad to see that you're getting into the "regular" geocaching game, and I hope you'll agree that it's ENTIRELY different from the Magellan Treasure Hunt mentality!

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

Next time, instead of getting married, I think I'll just find a woman I don't like and buy her a house.

August 18, 2003

quote:
I am glad to see that you're getting into the "regular" geocaching game, and I hope you'll agree that it's ENTIRELY different from the Magellan Treasure Hunt mentality!

I can definitely agree that the mentality for regular Geocaching is much different, and a lot of people were firmly shaking their fingers at me with the expectation that the mentality should be the same.

For Geocaching, the "thrill of the hunt" is truly the name of the game. For a regular cache, I enjoy the experience by setting aside a couple hours, and I'll enjoy a hike through the woods with my 5-year-old, and we'll take time to enjoy nature along the way. And I certainly wouldn't go stomping around in someone's yard.

But the Magellan game is a LOT different. The stakes are high for the FTF. Sorry, but I don't really care if I win a hat -- I want one of the big prizes! This is not something I'd attempt for the thrill of the hunt -- I'm in it for the big prizes, and I'm not afraid to admit that.

And I'm not ashamed to be resourceful in attempting to win, either. I'm looking forward to seeing where the Pittsburgh caches wind up -- I'm sure that with your help they'll finally be able to post them accurately!

August 18, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Quest Master:
I don't know about anyone else, but I know where the Leprechaun lives and I'm going to be staking out his house and following him around everywhere until he hides the treasure.

Last week I attached ones of those GPS and cellular tracking devices on his caching chariot. So I know where he has been for the was week and a half. And I must say he has been visiting some "questionable" places...

August 18, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by alansfreed:
And I'm not ashamed to be resourceful in attempting to win, either.

I'm not going to let this stand. What you did was wrong. Period. You KNEW that you had information that you weren't supposed to have and didn't report it to Magellan even after you knew it was wrong and your advantage was lost. You could have saved everyone involed a lot of headaches if you had done the right thing. You were in a position to nip this fiasco in the bud and you failed to act. The fact that you can rationalize it as being resourceful, or enterprising, or whatever you chose to call it, clearly demonstrates that you are less than honorable. I'll stop short of saying that you are a bad person or morally bankrupt because I don't know you and I think that this crazy contest is more responsible for your bad conduct than a flaw in your character. I hope for your sake that you're not so smug that you don't feel at least a little shame now.

I'm officially out of this contest. I don't want to be the rat that wins this race.

Johnny

August 18, 2003

quote:
I'm not going to let this stand.

Good Lord... BOO HOO. I hope you feel much more holy and righteous after all that. So sorry to hear you're out of the race.

9.1k · August 18, 2003

Alan, my position on how you conducted yourself is previously on record in this thread. I tried my best to put it behind me by distinguishing between the Magellan Hunt and regular geocaching. I wish you had let the subject drop. By bringing it up again, you prompted Quest Master's post. Now you've thumbed your nose at Western Pennsylvania's top geocacher. Most of us learned our geocaching ropes by following his example, whether it's how to hide a cache, how to plan for a hunt by using maps, or how to play this game ethically.

I'm not too sure you'll be very popular at our next picnic.

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

Next time, instead of getting married, I think I'll just find a woman I don't like and buy her a house.

August 18, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by alansfreed:
Let’s set some records straight, here. First off, “hacker” is quite a misnomer here. I am the “hacker” you’re referring to.

When I looked through some of the previous treasure hunts, I viewed the maps to study what types of areas they were hiding the caches. I am a web designer, and I am therefore quite Internet savvy. As a curiosity, I right-clicked on the map, and saw the web address of the map image. It ended with an id number (id=x). I noticed that the individual challenges also had ID numbers associated with them.

With this “amazing hacking knowledge,” I tried typing the web address of the image, but substituted the ID for the current Pittsburgh cache. I was extremely surprised to find that the alleged map for the site appeared when I did this. I was not “hacking” the site per se; this wasn’t exactly a Pentagon-level thing. Anyone with a reasonable knowledge of the web could have figured this out, and I did so in less than 5 minutes. I can assure you that Magellan was quite lax in allowing the maps to be found this easily. This glitch was cleared up later in the week, and it is no longer possible to use this method.

So I was faced with a dilemma. Yes, I knew I wasn’t “supposed” to have this map. But I also knew that with it being so easy to find, others would soon have it as well. And I have heard of at least half a dozen other people who DID have them ahead of time, including some folks I met today. If I wasn’t going to use this knowledge to my advantage, SOMEBODY ELSE WILL.

Do you really believe that some of these other treasures – like Houston -- have been found by people before the coordinates were posted, just because they “stumbled on them?” I doubt that very, very highly. I promise you they had the maps, and their maps were accurate. The map that I found for the Denver contest was accurate, for example.

The moral to the story is that Magellan is the culprit here. They made it extremely easy to find the maps, and that was their fault. I see many people here calling me a hacker as though I dug into their internal network, or I have my own personal satellite surveillance system or something. I would bet that 90% of the people criticizing me for using this information to my advantage would have done the same thing if they had found it, although they’re certainly not about to admit that here.

I wish you all well with the hunt… I can promise you that my enthusiasm for this, and geocaching in general, has been squashed to nil, and I will not be seeking the treasure when the new coordinates are released.

First I have to say that yes if I had stumbled onto that I would have gone as soon as I found it.

I have use this method to find all sorts of "hidden" info. Often you will see a set of pics somewhere and it will be 1,2,4,6 well the first thing I do is try and go to 3 and 5 most of the time it works. Cause the pics are there for their friends but for whatever reason they didn't post them to the html page.

As for your actions after find the messed up co-ords they were better than most would hae done. If i was the homeowners or those given tickets I would be trying to seek legal restitution from Magelan cause the only thing that seems to curb corp, screw ups the the pain of fines.

Pat Patterson

Garmin 12XL

82CJ7 & 79F250

Herd of Turtles 4x4 club

August 18, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by alansfreed:
I hope you feel much more holy and righteous after all that.

I am not so smug and apparently I gave you too much credit by giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Johnny

August 18, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Quest Master:
I don't want to be the rat that wins this race.

Johnny

I wholeheartedly agree. This is the kind of thing that happens when a grassroots game like Geocaching gets too big. More rules = more problems, arguments, etc. Not to get off on a tangent, but these are the same reasons why I disagree with Geocaching organizations, clubs, etc.

August 18, 2003

First! I don't want to get into a pissing contest with anyone, BUT I have to agree with Questmaster & Leprechauns!!

By re-hashing what you did and by stepping on toes of fellow cachers, you have created a very poor image of yourself and most likely will not be welcomed at caching events.

AND to top it off, YOU went around TELLING everyone you bumped into, that you had the info 2-3 days in advance like a child that had found his xmas toys before xmas!!

I'm glad you don't have access to top secret info, we would be in bad shape!!

August 18, 2003

Wait a minute. Alansfreed noticed the format of a URL, tried it, was given additional info, and now he's not welcome at geocaching events?!

I've seen posts from several cachers who did the same thing (but got no results). If a Magellan cache hunter knew a shortcut to the cache's coordinates would you require that they take the same route as everyone else because the shortcut would give them an unfair advantage? Many cachers in Pittsburgh learned from their newspaper that the cache was in their city. Wouldn't you consider that unfair?

And to say that he is not welcome at geocaching events is a shame.

Give the guy a break.

It's not like alansfreed used his hacking skills to try to break into Magellan's secret server. He just noticed the URL and gave it a shot. I'd like to think cachers are resourceful people

August 18, 2003

I'm not faulting Alansfreed for finding the URL!

If one of the pro cachers like the Leprechauns, Questmaster or any others that have been around for awhile had came across this info a few days in advance, They would have contacted Magellan and let them know that the info was on private land!!

I'm sure he was there a few times looking around, but NO! He risked other cachers getting into trouble with the local police and causing problems to the land owners when all of these strange people came flocking onto there land!!!

This is almost the same if the SWAT TEAM comes busting into you home, and said OH!!! SORRY wrong house!

And flaming other cachers that he does not know is the wrong thing to do in my book!

August 27, 2003

If I had found the coordinates ahead of time like he did, then followed them to private property, I may not have contacted Magellan to tell them of their mistake. I'd wonder at that point if the page was just a page they made as a template for the final page with proper coordinates. Also, I wouldn't know what their reaction would be if I contacted them about the coords days before the real coords were posted--could I be disqualified from the contest for this?

One thing I know for sure... I would not have said:

Good Lord... BOO HOO. I hope you feel much more holy and righteous after all that. So sorry to hear you're out of the race.

to Quest Master.

August 27, 2003

So, Leprechaun...

Since you're helping them hide these things and make things better in Pittsburgh (and I do think they made a good choice here,) do you know if the second Pittsburgh cache (and the 2nd in the LA area) is replacing another cache they would have hidden, or a completely new cache in addition to the rest. Also, are the coupons the same? One grand prize and 25 hat coupons? I imagine this is a nightmare for them since contest rules tend to be very inflexible.

Hopefully they're compensating you nicely for helping them (something to make up for your inability to claim a prize.)

August 27, 2003

Anyone who went into something sponsored by Magellan and had hoped for a Geocaching experience should have known better. This contest wasn't about geocaching, it was completely different because geocaching is not about the prize... this was. People weren't out in parks for 3 days straight with no sleep to be first finder... they were there for the prizes. Stop confusing this with geocaching, PLEASE!

Also, "hacking" magellan's site was hardly a dispicable act. I would have done the same... If this was a friendly competition within the geocaching community it would be different, but this was about prizes. I think a lot of people here are kidding themselves if they think they wouldn't do the same thing. To find a geocacher you often have to think like the hider... and alansfreed did just that. He actually out-thought the hider. I applaud him and anyone else who has done the same thing.

-Zach

-Team Zen-

9.1k · August 27, 2003

Man in the Wild -

This is a bonus Magellan cache, we aren't stealing one from some other city. It contains a grand prize coupon and 25 hat coupons just like all the others. Thank you to you and to others who have expressed confidence in my ability to help Magellan fix things. I promise you a good hunt for the second cache. All that I will say about it is that geocachers will have an advantage over newbies who read about the contest in the paper.

Team Zen -

So, for the possibility of personal gain, you would knowingly and willingly place your fellow geocachers in a position where they'd be trespassing on private property, and interacting with the local constabulary, when you were in a position to prevent that from happening? You're welcome to follow your own sense of ethics. Here in Pittsburgh, the vast majority of the geocacher community watches out for each others' backsides. And we'll stick with our ethics.

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

Next time, instead of getting married, I think I'll just find a woman I don't like and buy her a house.

August 27, 2003

Thank you for that answer, Leprechaun. I've seen several people ask the same question on the Magellan site, and never did see a response from Magellan to let people know how that's being handled.

So I guess that means there will be six more caches--Pittsburgh #2 and five other cities within the next few days (unless they extend the end of the contest.)

I might have to make another run out to Pittsburgh for the second cache, although I don't know if I'll be able to bring any of my family with me this time.

August 27, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Zach and Shannon - Team Zen:
Anyone who went into something sponsored by Magellan and had hoped for a Geocaching experience should have known better. This contest wasn't about geocaching, it was completely different because geocaching is not about the prize... this was. People weren't out in parks for 3 days straight with no sleep to be first finder... they were there for the prizes. Stop confusing this with geocaching, PLEASE!

Also, "hacking" magellan's site was hardly a dispicable act. I would have done the same... If this was a friendly competition within the geocaching community it would be different, but this was about prizes. I think a lot of people here are kidding themselves if they think they wouldn't do the same thing. To find a geocacher you often have to think like the hider... and alansfreed did just that. He actually out-thought the hider. I applaud him and anyone else who has done the same thing.

You're right. It isn't geocaching. It's very unfortunate that Magellan calls it that.

I also agree that what alansfreed did does not rise to the level of being dispicable. I didn't say that and nobody else did either. Whether or not you, I, alansfreed, or anybody else would have done the same thing does not make it right. If alansfreed would have won the grand prize with this information he would have cheated but still he would have been entitled to the prize because he didn't do anything illegal. Sometimes cheaters win. I wouldn't hold a grudge against anyone for winning that way but I wouldn't applaud them either. This contest may not be geocaching but still there has to be some sense among the participants of what is and what is not fair play. The thing that really worries me is this attitude that almost anything goes when prizes are involved. People will be shooting at one another if Magellan puts a million dollars in a cache. It's a mad, mad, mad, mad world after all...

Johnny

August 27, 2003

So this contest was to close by Monday the 1st, just 5 days left, so will they post the remaining sites, or extend the contest????

My vote is for "sooner is better", hoping for one in upstate NY, LI just doesn't do it for me!!!

August 27, 2003

Okay... No, I would not let my fellow geocachers get in trouble for trespassing. I was not talking about that. I didn't mean that if I realized it was on private property that I wouldn't report it, of course I would. I just meant that if I knew where a cache was because Magellan made a mistake and I capitalized on it... I would use that knowledge.

Also, I do not think what he did was cheating. He found a means of figuring out where the cache was before everyone else, and anyone else could have done the same thing if they had the knowledge. He is being criticized for being resourceful and I think that's pretty sad.

-Zach

-Team Zen-

August 27, 2003

By the way Lep... I know you think you're all high and mighty with your superior ethics and all, but you don't know me. You twisted my words into something they didn't mean and it makes me wonder just what your definition of "ethical" is. Here in Michigan, we can comprehend basic ideas in writing so as to not make stupid mistakes like you have made. I'm sorry, but don't question my ethics, and certainly do not question the ethics of my state.

-Zach

-Team Zen-

9.1k · August 27, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Zach and Shannon - Team Zen:
Okay... No, I would not let my fellow geocachers get in trouble for trespassing. I was not talking about that. I didn't mean that if I realized it was on private property that I wouldn't report it, of course I would. I just meant that if I knew where a cache was because Magellan made a mistake and I capitalized on it... I would use that knowledge.

Also, I do not think what he did was cheating. He found a means of figuring out where the cache was before everyone else, and anyone else could have done the same thing if they had the knowledge. He is being criticized for being resourceful and I think that's pretty sad.

You *applauded* the person who did what I described in my prior post. My beef is not with the fact that he discovered the map, but rather that he failed to report the problem with the cache being on private property. If you wished to distinguish between those two things when you were clapping for him, perhaps you could have written your post a bit more precisely.

For the life of me, I can't fathom the people who applaud someone's ability to find a URL but turn a blind eye to how he used the information. Perhaps if you had been in Pittsburgh that weekend you might think differently.

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

Next time, instead of getting married, I think I'll just find a woman I don't like and buy her a house.

August 27, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Zach and Shannon - Team Zen:
By the way Lep... I know you think you're all high and mighty with your superior ethics and all, but you don't know me. You twisted my words into something they didn't mean and it makes me wonder just what your definition of "ethical" is. Here in Michigan, we can comprehend basic ideas in writing so as to not make stupid mistakes like you have made. I'm sorry, but don't question my ethics, and certainly do not question the ethics of my state.

Hoo Boy! That's funny. We had all better hope that Lep's ethics are superior or he's already got this contest in the bag. Lep will know the coordinates for the second treasure and I'll wager that he didn't sign any contract with Magellan saying that he wouldn't tell anyone. Even if he did there is probably someone at his law firm that could find a hole in it somewhere. I'm going to be laughing real hard when Little Lep gets the prize. Some will cry 'foul' but it seems to me that many others will 'applaud' him for being 'resourceful', 'enterprising', and 'clever' if he can get away with it. What's the difference?

It seems that there are no principles when a valuable prize is at stake.

Give me a call, Lep. Let's talk kickbacks....

Johnny

August 27, 2003

First... Lep, When did I even address the fact that it was trespassing in my post? You are going on absolutely nothing, assuming that I am applauding trespassing and not telling people about it. I applaud what he DID, not what he did not do. He probably did not report anything because frankly, why would Magellan ACTUALLY put the cache there? I for one would figure that I got it wrong. And you know what? Why the heck do you assume that I was specifically addressing YOUR previous post? I was simply stating my opinion on the "hacking" matter. If I had been in Pittsburgh that weekend, I would think "Man... I wish I had thought of that" and nothing more. I am not the spiteful type. I am not the type of person that gets angry with a person for outsmarting the competition.

If Lep decided to use his power and information for that cause, it would be sad. There is a difference. Lep has information that no one else has access to. The "hacking" incident was just someone using information that was available with a little digging. There is a big difference.

-Zach

-Team Zen-

9.1k · August 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Quest Master:
We had all better hope that Lep's ethics are superior or he's already got this contest in the bag. Lep will know the coordinates for the second treasure and I'll wager that he didn't sign any contract with Magellan saying that he wouldn't tell anyone. Even if he did there is probably someone at his law firm that could find a hole in it somewhere. I'm going to be laughing real hard when Little Lep gets the prize. Some will cry 'foul' but it seems to me that many others will 'applaud' him for being 'resourceful', 'enterprising', and 'clever' if he can get away with it. What's the difference?

It seems that there are no principles when a valuable prize is at stake.

Give me a call, Lep. Let's talk kickbacks....

Johnny

Gee whiz, Johnny, you're RIGHT! ::: Slaps self on forehead ::: Why didn't I think of that? I did not sign a contract. All I did was give my WORD over the telephone to Magellan's director of PR. And how much is that worth? Geocachers will find out when the second treasure hunt occurs.

Hypothetically, if I were to go back to the treasure chest and remove the grand prize coupon, I'd be glad to give a kickback to Quest Master for suggesting the idea. I'll take the SporTrak Color and cut it in half... 50/50 seems fair.

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

Next time, instead of getting married, I think I'll just find a woman I don't like and buy her a house.

August 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by The Leprechauns:
My beef is not with the fact that he discovered the map, but rather that he failed to report the problem with the cache being on private property.

I've been resisting the temptation of posting here again for fear of re-opening a can of worms, but I see that the can is already open...

First, let me apologize to Quest Master for my previous, rather childish post. I had a bad day in the first place, and I didn't appreciate the comments aimed at me, but I should have let it alone. I'm honestly not a bad guy, and I'm sincerely sorry that I lashed back.

It seems that I'm repeatedly coming under fire because "I didn't report the fact that the coordinates pointed to private property." But this isn't the truth at all. I did indeed report this to the police immediately, which I said in my first posts in this thread.

I provided the North Fayette Township police with a map, the URL, my contact information, and I INSISTED to them that this would be a continuing problem. They told me they'd take care of it.

Now if I had this whole experience to live over again, yes, I would have indeed contacted Magellan to notify them of the error as soon as I was aware of it.

I don't know what the case was for Magellan, but have you ever tried to get through to the right person at a major company? I absolutely hate wading through voice mail systems, pushing '1' for this and '2' for that in a vain attempt to contact a human being. I admit that I didn't want to even attempt to try contacting them directly for that reason, AND because the police had told me they'd take care of it.

If I hadn't thought that the situation was going to be resolved before the coordinates were released, I wouldn't have been sitting in the middle of Settler's Cabin Park with everyone else that Saturday morning...

August 28, 2003

I'm atill without power from the tornadao, I've been missing everything thats going on but for trips out of town to recharge batteries so i can see at night and to check my email. I can't wait to get back in the game! HA! Hopefully I'll have power again soon. cold showers suck and I won't even mention the annoyance of not being online. Yeah I'm a computer junkie. But look at how much I have missed here in the past few days! LOL

Eeyore

I am moving along!

August 28, 2003

I accept your apology, Alan, and I acknowledge that your failure to nofity Magellan was a mistake and not a crime. There are no hard feelings on this side and I look forward to meeting you someday.

I do, however, continue to have a problem with persons who preach their relative ethics as they relate to this situation. It is a dangerous game that you and they are playing. You're making up your own rules. Somebody might also say that they were entitled to the prize if they won a fistfight at the cache and somebody else might say they were 'resouceful' for putting sugar into the gas tank of a competitor. I could think of a thousand examples like this and get a thousand different opinions on what is and is not fair. Some would say that it would depend on the size of the prize. The bottom line here is that it wasn't fair to the other participants who had every reason to expect that nobody would have the coordinates ahead of time and they would have an equal chance of winning. I think that it is clear that this is the way that Magellan had intended for it to come off. If it was not unethical to use this information, it was, at least, unsportsmanlike and inconsiderate. You're putting yourself and your ethics before everyone else.

Because I do not want to be accused again as being righteous or holier-than-thou, I will admit that it would have been dangerous for me to have the same information that you 'hacked' from Magellan's website. I certainly wouldn't have had the gall to approach a private residence and say that there was supposed to be a trasure there based on information that I knew I wasn't supposed to have, BUT, I might very well have used the information to get to the treasure if it had been there. I would have cheated if I had done so, and I wouldn't be able to trick myself into thinking that I was just being 'resourceful' but I would be a cheater with a new GPS and I could probably live with that. Shame on me. This is my reason for staying out of this contest. I don't like what it does to people.

Johnny

August 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by The Leprechauns:

Hypothetically, if I were to go back to the treasure chest and remove the grand prize coupon, I'd be glad to give a kickback to Quest Master for suggesting the idea. I'll take the SporTrak Color and cut it in half... 50/50 seems fair.

Can I have the half with the batteries? I think that they will fit nicely in my Garmin.

quote:
Originally posted by Zach and Shannon - Team Zen:
If Lep decided to use his power and information for that cause, it would be sad. There is a difference. Lep has information that no one else has access to. The "hacking" incident was just someone using information that was available with a little digging. There is a big difference.

I guess that it wouldn't be right for you to tell me the coordinates but apparently it would be perfectly okay for me to use the info if you will give it to me. After all, anybody could have gotten the info if they had offered a similar bribe.

I know a cute litte redhead that I could deliver to your doorstep if you are interested....

Johnny

August 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Quest Master:
I know a cute litte redhead that I could deliver to your doorstep if you are interested....

I'll match that cute little redhead and raise with a blonde...

9.1k · August 28, 2003

Alansfreed - I will just echo what Quest Master said. We keep trying to forgive you, and to differentiate between the Magellan Contest vs. regular geocaching. As I wrote a page or two back, I welcome you as a regular geocacher, I enjoyed finding your cache, and I'm glad you're trying some of mine.

Quest Master and Man In The Wild - I have decided that I no longer have any ethics. This being the case, I feel that I can accept BOTH of your kind offers. At the exact same time, even. You have each been to my house and I hope you marked a waypoint. If not, I'll e-mail the coordinates to you. And they'll be accurate. Real accurate.

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

Next time, instead of getting married, I think I'll just find a woman I don't like and buy her a house.

August 28, 2003

Originally posted by The Leprechauns:
Man in the Wild -

All that I will say about it is that geocachers will have an advantage over newbies who read about the contest in the paper.

QUOTE]

Why would you do that? Most of the geocachers already have a GPSr (and experience).

Wyatt W.

The probability of someone watching you is directly proportional to the stupidity of your actions.

August 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by phantom4099:
Why would you do that? Most of the geocachers already have a GPSr (and experience).

My guess is it wasn't to give Geocachers an edge--just more a case of it being a much tougher cache than the average Magellan cache, and regular geocachers would have the edge due to experience looking for caches that are actually hidden.

August 28, 2003

Lep - I have it on good account that you're really quite a good guy. I want to apologize for our misunderstanding and for anything I might have said that was inappropriate. I firmly believe that we just misunderstood each other from the beginning and that we just got off on the wrong foot. You're a great person that has given the organization I am part of, MiGO, a lot of help when we have needed it. Thank you for that. Trippy reminded me tonight in an email that sometimes on the internet, people just don't come across the way they would like to. He cared enough to make sure there was no bad blood between us and I am following through and making sure of it too. So yeah... Sorry.

Also... sorry to anyone else who misunderstood my intentions or whose posts I misunderstoon.

One more thing... on my own accord, I would like to say this. No opinion I give, EVER, should be considered a reflection of the opinions of other MiGO members. I figured I should mention that since I do advertise our organization at the bottom of each of my posts. Not all of us are as stubborn and bullheaded as I am. If anyone has a poor opinion of me, please do not let it reflect on your opinion of other Michigan cachers. They are amazing people, many of whom I have had the pleasure of meeting. I consider them all to be great friends and great people.

-Zach

-Team Zen-

9.1k · August 28, 2003

Wow! What a very nice post, Zach. There are some other people in these forums who ought to sign up for lessons from you on how to prevent a flame war. I hate flame wars. I like to make my point and move on.

I chewed on your first post because the issue was important to me... I pounced on your words and also on what you didn't say. I am a lawyer and we are good at that. I would have done the same thing to anyone else who wrote the same thing.

I am afraid you may have misread the intent of my statement about geocachers here in Pittsburgh watching out for each other's backsides. In saying that, I did not mean to imply anything negative about Michigan geocachers. I did not even look to see where you were from. I am fortunate to have struck up online friendships with a number of MiGO members and I hope to attend one of your events someday. If I disparaged the good MiGO name, I apologize for that. All I really meant was to make a positive statement about how Pittsburgh geocachers watch out for and help one another, rather than focusing on a prize hunt.

I am getting the heck out of town for a Labor Day weekend marathon caching trip, so that if anything goes wrong with the Magellan hunt that I planned, I will be out of gunshot range. I hope that you have a nice holiday weekend, too.

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

Next time, instead of getting married, I think I'll just find a woman I don't like and buy her a house.

Magellan Contest Rigged?

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