This cache is dangerous and illegal

November 8, 2002

I understand and respect the need for a self-policing community. I just don't care for the way things were handled in this case.

I would have appreciated a direct email expressing the concerns about the cache.

Try to see things from my point of view for a second: I had to 'stumble' on this thread as I am discovering the forums to realize that there was a potential issue. Sucks, doesn't it?

Next time a newcomer makes a mistake in a cache description, point it out to the reviewer of the submission and let him handle it.

...

1000111-1000101-1001111 is indeed 'GEO' in ASCII.

SimonG : 1

Mopar : 0

;-P

I made yet another change to the page, this time encrypting the 'driving' / 'parking' directions.

Cheers,

Fabien.

3k · November 8, 2002

How many 'Mom's' do we need?? nm

1000111-1000101-1001111

Just a suggestion. Encrypting the driving/parking directions does no good when the person needs a hint at the cache location. Maybe a suggestion that, that info is encrypeted so they know. Sorry to bug you again. Leave the darn thing alone and don't worry what anyone else thinks.

______________________________________________________________________________________

Not so sure, Somewhat new Owner Of a Garmin GPS V Received on 10-03-02

November 8, 2002

One of the most fun cache hunts I went on was for a cache that I "thought" at first would require me to climb up onto a concrete span over I-215 in Utah. I was mad at first that someone would put a cache in such an obviously illegal location but then I decided to try a few more access points and I learned two things. 1) I am lousy at estimating where a cache will end up being when I am more than 400 feet away and 2) there is a little piece of ground near the concrete span that is hard to get to but not impossible and not illegal. It ended up being a fun hunt and I even left a travel bug for the next cacher brave enought to keep trying

November 8, 2002

quote:

quote:
Like I’ve said before, if someone bores a hole through a redwood tree to hide a cache inside, does that impart guilt on us all?

Guilt? No. Outrage? Hopefully.

What if it was my tree on my property and I allowed cachers to find it on my property? If you know anything about trees (especially redwoods) putting a hole into it does not doom it to destruction. Nor does it throw the world into an environmental catastrophe. For some reason there seems to be some enexplainable, otherworldly, myth about redwoods? Like they are the saviours to the universe and are on the verge of collapse. They grow like weeds in their native range and are not on the brink of extinction as some would like the rest of the country(and the world) believe. (END RANT)

From the begining of this thread I could not believe so many were reading so much into the location of a cache based on speculation. And I wouldn't trust most of the map/photo products available as the gospel when overlaying coordinates(subject to more errors) over them.

Done....hope I don't enrage too many.

-UA

***********************************************************

...Proudly ranked 620th in the state of California!My Home

[This message was edited by Uncle Alaska on November 08, 2002 at 03:13 PM.]

November 8, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by MrMom:
http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=42343

Cache name: WIRED

New user, no finds, one hide.

This cache is dangerous and illegal. The cache requires you to stop on the shoulder of a state thruway. How did this one get by the screeners?

Geonavigating since 1991

A little harsh, don't you think. According to this satelitte photo (red dot is the cache)

http://www.lostoutdoors.com/map.php?map=42.756500,-78.829000&t=1&z=1&s=1&id=&mark=42.756500,-78.829000,255,0,0,7,*

it is right next to the road. However, there is a large wooded area with what appears to be appartments beyond. The cache very well may be accessible from there.

It would be a good idea though for the hider to put a note on the cache to advise people of this. We have a very similar one here

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=8106

But the hider put notes to advise cachers. Maybe the hider should do the same.

"We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile. We are the Borg."

3k · November 8, 2002

I told ya'll that goldkey was still alive.

That has been taken care of already goldkey.

______________________________________________________________________________________

Not so sure, Somewhat new Owner Of a Garmin GPS V Received on 10-03-02

1.6k · November 8, 2002

Yes, there is an emergency lane and you see people stopped there all of the time, but that's what it's there for--to stop in an emergency.

Let's put it this way. You stop on the side of road. You are mere feet from the lane where semi-trucks grossing 80,000 lb are going in excess of 65 mph. If that driver so happens to fall asleep or isn't paying attention (if you have a CB you can hear them telling drivers behind them about cars on the side of the road just for this very reason) and runs in your car. Say, you drive a fairly heavy car or SUV. It weighs about 5,000 lbs. 5,000 lbs isn't going to slow 80,000 lbs very much, but 80,000 lbs will certainly increase that 5,000 lb vehicle's speed quite quickly. Hopefully, you're not in it or in front of it.

In cases like this, generally, the car is completely obliterated. Only the truck driver is likely to survive the crash.

Or...

Some idiot with a cellphone is more interested in whats for dinner than the task at hand. He's in the slow lane, but hasn't noticed that people are slowing down for some reason--you being on the side of the road. He realizes too late and swerves to where he doesn't think there is a car--to the right--and plows directly into you.

No, I've put far too many miles behind me on the road to not tempt fate by stopping on the side of the road unnecessarily. If I have to, I pull way off into the grass.

CR

November 8, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by umc:
I told ya'll that goldkey was still alive.

That has been taken care of already goldkey.

______________________________________________________________________________________

Not so sure, Somewhat new Owner Of a Garmin GPS V Received on 10-03-02

Didn't know anyone thought I was dead , thanks for having faith in me will teach me to read the ENTIRE thread before replying. At least the satelite pic was a new addition.

"We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile. We are the Borg."

November 8, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by umc:
Whats so wrong with parking on a freeway anyway?

I see people there all the time. Changing a tire reposition items in a trailer or back of a truck, taking a piss over the rail or whatever.

______________________________________________________________________________________

Grrr.... This is one of my biggest peeves- idiots parking on the freeway. The breakdown lane is there for emergencies- not to stop and take pictures, not so the kids can pee, not so geocachers can take a shortcut. It really burns me when traffic is cruising along nicely at 85 mph and then all the breaklights light up, people start changing lanes and the flow goes down to 60mph because some f***knuckle stopped to take a leak instead of getting off the highway at the next exit.

The absolutely STUPIDEST thing I ever saw was a group of college-age kids that had exited a bus that broke down. They set up lawn chairs in the breakdown lane on the inside of a blind curve, less than six feet from the right travel lane. Traffic was a complete mess and these idiots didn't even have the sense to protect themselves by putting their chairs in the grass behind the guardrail.

"Everybody wants to save the world, but nobody wants to help mom with the dishes," -P.J. O'Rourke

November 8, 2002

quote:
I'll accept your apology as well...

Hey, MrMom, maybe you didn't get the hint the first time.

"Everybody wants to save the world, but nobody wants to help mom with the dishes," -P.J. O'Rourke

2.5k · November 8, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Mrs Mom:
Criminal you may not believe that caches are being removed by park services hence giving Geo CAching a bad name but it is happening. Roadkill has given examples in Chicago on other forums,

You are going to have to back up your claims here, rather than try to deflect the fact that a cache was mis-diagnosed as being illegal and dangerous.

In Chicago, there are not caches being removed, to the contrary, the parks that did not allow them before are coming around and starting to allow them, with some restrictions. Geocaching in Chicago doesn't have a bad name, the problem was that the park people didn't know what it was and didn't know how to react. Because of some hard work by area people like Markwell and others, geocaching is being introduced into areas where it previously not allowed. You can read more about geocaching and the parks in Chicago at: http://chicagogeocaching.com/

You state that you are getting your information from someone in the forums called Roadkill, but a search of the forums does not turn up any posts by that name. No one I know in Chicago goes by that name, as far as I know. The only user closely resembling that name appears to be another New Yorker Road Kill (two words), and checking his find logs shows he hasn't been near Chicago since June of 2001.

38.2k · November 9, 2002

There is a similar cache in NY off of I-787. It's in a linear park that runs between 787 and the Hudson river. The walk to the cache from the legal access point is about a mile. I have the waypoint on my GPS and while driving on 787, I pass within 350 feet of the cache. I once considered stopping on the shoulder and making a dash for the cache, but sanity took over and I didn't.

This doesn't make it an illegal, or dangerous cache, but geocachers may do something illegal and dangerous to get to the cache. But that is their problem, not the cache owners.

I agree with 1000111-1000101-1001111 that this could have been handled a lot better. A private e-mail is always the best way to express any concerns you may have about a cache. THEN if the owner doesn't address your concerns, its time to take it to the forums.

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on its hind legs, but by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" -Max Beerbohm

5k · November 9, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by GoldKey:
At least the satelite pic was a new addition.

Incorrect my half-silicon friend.

I was the second to respond and included a helpful link to the aerial view. In fact, my message is almost identical to yours in content. We sure think alike; I'm just quicker.

Jamie

November 9, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Z:

quote:
Originally posted by GoldKey:
At least the satelite pic was a new addition.

Incorrect my half-silicon friend.

I was the http://opentopic.Groundspeak.com/0/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=1750973553&f=3000917383&m=5920954835#3200964835 and included a helpful link to the aerial view. In fact, my message is almost identical to yours in content. We sure think alike; I'm just quicker.

Jamie

Clearly I must have assimilated an inferior species this week and it has affected my programming for the worse. That or I can always blame it on a distubance in the space/time continum.

"We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile. We are the Borg."

November 9, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Alaska:
What if it was my tree on my property and I allowed cachers to find it on my property?

Wow, semi-unrelated is right. Hey, what if wasn't a Redwood, but a cardboard cutout of Darth Vader? And what if it wasn't a hole, but a picture of a light saber? And what if it wasn't a discussion about breaking laws....etc etc etc.

Anyway, on the redwood specific comments, your arguments are the reason the radical environmentalists feel justified. Did you perchance have ancestors who made similar arguments in defense of Dodo hunting?

It almost make me ashamed to vote Republican.

ApK

1.1k · November 9, 2002

1. It was perfectly acceptable to ask questions about this particular cache, especially since the hider did not have any finds to their name. However, I would have emailed the user directly as a courtesy before airing concerns in the forums.

2. Keep in mind that there is an assumption of all caches that they are placed with permission. Using common sense, a cache placed on the side of a busy highway was not placed there without permission. It was a valid concern.

3. I sure hope that G-E-O isn't putting illegally copied music and movies in that cache. If so, I will archive it. Both poor placement AND association with illegal activities give a bad name to this sport. Stick to Gnutella so your crime is peer to peer.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

November 9, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by MrMom:
The cache is roadside. BTW stopping is illegal.

Caches such as this - DOES give ALL of us a bad name.

Do we police ourselves or do we let them legislate it.

When policing ourselves, don't you think we have an obligation to investigate a little before making strong allegations such as Illegal and Dangerous? Maybe a post in the form of a question rather than a statement would have been more prudent. I think self policing works better when a bit of discretion is applied.

5.9k · November 9, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):
1. It was perfectly acceptable to ask questions about this particular cache, especially since the hider did not have any finds to their name. However, I would have emailed the user directly as a courtesy before airing concerns in the forums.

snip

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

I agree with points 2 and 3, however, the only question asked by the poster was how did the cache get past the screeners. So was the attack against the screeners? It can be frustrating to wait three or four days for approval, but in waiting I realize how hard they're working. So, kudos to them. The statement in the post was, “dangerous and illegal”, which some of us find a little condemning. Had they asked a question like, “I think this cache is illegal, what about you?” or “I believe it to be dangerous to stop along the freeway, what about you?” (They would have been Markwelled to another thread on the same topic) So I think that was the beef, Not the question, but the lack thereof.

November 9, 2002

Geez people!

The content of the cache is PERFECTLY safe, legal, rated PG, w/o sharp edges, none of the parts can be swallowed, does not contain lead paint, has been tested for radon, molds and is far enough from the highway in a wooded area.

About the digital media:

It's all public domain stuff snagged from the net: 'Gutemberg Project' e-books, Usenet recipes, public domain old delta blues, public domain movies

For reference:

http://pressthebutton.com/archives/

http://www.mp34u.com

http://promo.net/pg/

Do I need to provide a urine sample and a blood test to be a geocacher too?

5.9k · November 9, 2002

RECIPES?!?! For what? BOMBS?!?!? OMG! BURN HIM! BURN HIM!

I'm going out caching.

November 9, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Navdog:
Now if it was in the meridian strip, that would be another thing!

Median strip? Who me?:

My cache

-WR

"Why worry when you can obsess?"

1.5k · November 9, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Z:
Hmmm, my first red flag for this cache is the statement "There's nothing interesting about the location of the cache" in the description. That right there is an issue.

Sure, virtual caches are somewhat "required" to have a unique reason for their existance, but I've never heard that a regular cache must be placed somewhere that is exciting or unusual.

The Toe Pages

1.5k · November 9, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by 1000111-1000101-1001111:
I understand and respect the need for a self-policing community. I just don't care for the way things were handled in this case.

I would have appreciated a direct email expressing the concerns about the cache.

I agree... and, despite the original poster's good intentions - when someone starts a thread with the subject line of This cache is dangerous and illegal it is going to set off some bells and whistles here in the community. They didn't ASK if we thought it was dangerous and illegal, or provide any other constructive comments. A quick e-mail to you and their concerns could have been addressed without them having to post here to try to get everyone worked up about it.

I hope you don't let this experience spoil your fun here. We're all full of opinions, but most folks use common sense before spouting off too much.

9.1k · November 9, 2002

The cache in question was found today and the log was favorable. So let up on the guy already!

Ever since I piled on in the RiceBrothers "false cache placement" threadI've made it a point not to jump on any bandwagons or make any accusations about a cache without firsthand knowledge. We should all learn from these experiences.

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

Please attend our seminar, "Geocaching for Time Travelers," which will be held two weeks ago.

November 9, 2002

Edit: Oh nevermind

[This message was edited by Duke_ on November 10, 2002 at 01:56 AM.]

9.4k · November 11, 2002

How about a cache UNDER a freeway overpass? The cache description says it can be accessed by several directions. Sure, one of those may be stopping on the freeway and climbing down the embankment.

Oh wait, there is a ROAD UNDER the freeway! How about taking the next offramp and finding that road...

no, let's flame the guy that placed it under there instead of thinking that far...

38.2k · November 11, 2002

quote:
Geez people!

The content of the cache is PERFECTLY safe, legal, rated PG, w/o sharp edges, none of the parts can be swallowed, does not contain lead paint, has been tested for radon, molds and is far enough from the highway in a wooded area.

About the digital media:

It's all public domain stuff snagged from the net: 'Gutemberg Project' e-books, Usenet recipes, public domain old delta blues, public domain movies

For reference:

http://pressthebutton.com/archives/

http://www.mp34u.com

http://promo.net/pg/

Do I need to provide a urine sample and a blood test to be a geocacher too?

Your cache is fine. I think that fact has been established here. Can't wait to get out there to search for it. My in-laws live about an hour away and it will provide me with something to do while out there.

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on its hind legs, but by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" -Max Beerbohm

November 11, 2002

My next cache will be named "Dangerous & Illegal" .. That should rattle some cages, what do you think?

A cache a day keeps the blues away...

November 11, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by 1000111-1000101-1001111:
My next cache will be named "Dangerous & Illegal" .. That should rattle some cages, what do you think?

A cache a day keeps the blues away...

I'll be the first to hunt for it!!!!

5.9k · November 11, 2002

I wish we could declare this thread "dangerous and illegal" instead.............

November 11, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:
I wish we could declare this thread "dangerous and illegal" instead.............

But if we did, in a hypothetical situation, how might one hide a dangerous and illegal cache in a national forest, where such caches have been previously pulled. How do you do it?

November 12, 2002

I figured that I'd keep things interesting after all the hoopla about this cache...So today, I upgraded it to a 3/3 from its initial 1/1 level ;-) And of course, it's even more Dangerous and Illegal than before

A cache a day keeps the blues away...

November 12, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by 1000111-1000101-1001111:
I figured that I'd keep things interesting after all the hoopla about this cache...So today, I upgraded it to a 3/3 from its initial 1/1 level ;-) And of course, it's even more _Dangerous and Illegal_ than before

A cache a day keeps the blues away...

Oh no! You didn't hide it BEHIND the tree, did you???

---------------

Go! And don't be afraid to get a little wet!

5.7k · November 12, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by 1000111-1000101-1001111:
My next cache will be named "Dangerous & Illegal" .. That should rattle some cages, what do you think?

As a pun, you should make it the geeky: "!(Dangerous & Illegal) cache"

Make sure you place it in an area that looks bad from a satelite pic, but is in fact a cool hiding spot.

--Marky

"Everyone spends time in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer with a backlit GPSr"

November 12, 2002

I thought about the following question:

quote:
But if we did, in a hypothetical situation, how might one hide a dangerous and illegal cache in a national forest, where such caches have been previously pulled. How do you do it?

And I came up with this answer: steganography. Take a look at the "recent news" section of my profile for an example.

All you have to do when you register your cache is to "mark" it (using a special character somewhere in the description or in the encrypted text or using a watermark in a picture...) so that people in the know would recognize it as a "special" cache with hidden location information. Of course, the coordinates that you would post for the cache would have to be in a "legal" area but pointing to a most "virtual" cache ;-)

There are other ways to hide information. This is only one of them.

Cheers,

Fabien.

A cache a day keeps the blues away...

November 12, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by 1000111-1000101-1001111:
I thought about the following question:

quote:
But if we did, in a hypothetical situation, how might one hide a dangerous and illegal cache in a national forest, where such caches have been previously pulled. How do you do it?

And I came up with this answer: steganography. Take a look at the "recent news" section of my profile for an example.

All you have to do when you register your cache is to "mark" it (using a special character somewhere in the description or in the encrypted text or using a watermark in a picture...) so that people in the know would recognize it as a "special" cache with hidden location information. Of course, the coordinates that you would post for the cache would have to be in a "legal" area but pointing to a most "virtual" cache ;-)

There are other ways to hide information. This is only one of them.

Cheers,

Fabien.

A cache a day keeps the blues away...

I like the way this guy thinks!

9.1k · November 18, 2002

I have placed the "Elves in the Fast Lane" cache in tribute to our new friend G-E-O. It's fun looking at the map and seein' that red star right next to the expressway!

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

Why didn't Noah swat those two mosquitos?

3.1k · November 19, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Marky:
As a pun, you should make it the geeky:

"!(Dangerous & Illegal) cache"

Ah, but then it could still be EITHER Dangerous or Illegal. You'd want:

!(Dangerous || Illegal)

Mein Vater war ein Wandersmann, und ich hab' auch im Blut.

This cache is dangerous and illegal

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