Environmental Impact Links (what others think about caching)

[+Bloencustoms]

I thought it would be interesting to see what these other groups are saying about Geocaching.

 

Let's use this thread to link to sites about geocaching's alleged impact, that we may be more informed as a community about what non-cachers think of our activity.

 

I'll start it off with this link. I'll try to find more...

 

"Searching with my good eye closed"

 

[This message was edited by BloenCustoms on April 16, 2003 at 06:02 PM.]

[+Bloencustoms]

Here's another wherin digging is understood to be a common practice for cachers.

 

"Searching with my good eye closed"

[+flask]

oh, wow.

spelunking is good, geocaching is bad?

 

i'm a little puzzled as to why one form of traffic is inherently better.

 

how about let's all go outside and play?

 

no, you can't play in my yard. or anyone else's.

 

it doesn't matter if you get to camp at one or at six. dinner is still at six.

[+briansnat]

Below is a reply to a usenet group that I subscribe to. The subject of Geocaching came up and several subscribers joined in and the basic tenor was that geocaching was akin to strip mining and the practicioners where a bunch of clueless yahoos, suddenly unleashed into the outdoors and destroying it for everyone else.

 

I've seen geocaching bashing going on in many forums. Despite negative stereotypes, geocachers by and large, are not a bunch of clueless, citified couch potatos and rednecks suddenly tramping through the woods, GPS in hand. The bulk of geocachers are outdoors lovers, who find geocaching to be simply another way to enjoy the outdoors. The ranks of geocachers include: backpackers, hikers, forest rangers, trail volunteers, foresters, S&R personnel, naturalists, botanists and even a some LNT advocates. And yes, geocaching has even gotten some former couch potatos out from in front of the TV and into the outdoors.

 

Just like there are irresponsible hikers, hunters and backpackers and other outdoors users, there are a handful of irresponsible geocachers. Be advised that the geocaching community actively polices the sport, and addresses irresponsibly placed geocaches as soon as they are brought to its attention.

 

 

 

"It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues" -Abraham Lincoln

[+wimseyguy]

First the Soup Nazi, now Cave Nazis?

quote:

---

The first step is to write an article for the NSS News and inform cavers of the potential problem that these geo-caches and posted cave locations may pose

---

My cave, I was here first.

 

These changes in latitudes, changes in attitudes;

Nothing remains quite the same.

Through all of the islands and all of the highlands,

If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane

[bloomcru]

What are the facts behind the "spiralling vindictiveness in Colorado" comment? Makes it sound as if we are a militant group of extremists instead of the mostly innocuous group of family-friendly types with a couple of radicals thrown in for humor that we really are. Sounds as if that lady and her spelunking friends are more militant than we could ever become, except for criminal and his pals, of course

 

And she makes it sound like Jeremy is fighting battles day and night, defending our rights!! Go Jeremy!

 

my 2 pennies-

charlotte of bloomcru

[+Sissy-n-CR]

quote:

---

Originally posted by flask:

 

i'm a little puzzled as to why one form of traffic is inherently better.

---

 

Probably because you don't have a Ph.D. or belong to the NCS (National Caching society).

 

Note they said that the biggest danger is the posting of the caves on the interent. Don't you just love "security through obscurity?"

 

CR

 

[+worldtraveler]

The two articles posted thus far are ~1 year old; that's 1/3 the lifespan of this sport thus far. While the number of active cachers and caches has multiplied during the past year, it seems,from the relative dearth of new articles, that our "impact" has not. That sort of exposes the unsubstantiated "gloom and doom" rants of these writers for what they are, IMO.

 

Worldtraveler

[+Wander Lost]

I'd like to know what kind of GPS gets reception in a cave!

 

That's one unit I'd like more info on.

 

We're all here, because we're not 'all there'.

 

[+Renegade Knight]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wander Lost:

I'd like to know what kind of GPS gets reception in a cave!

 

That's one unit I'd like more info on.

 

http://home.attbi.com/~wander_lost/smile02.gif We're all here, because we're not 'all there'.

 

http://www.geocachingwa.org

---

 

Your handy dandy denim clad pacing units work in a cave. Standard issue at birth, denim optional.

 

=====================

Wherever you go there you are.

[Jeremy]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wander Lost:

I'd like to know what kind of GPS gets reception in a cave!

---

 

It's called GPS Re-radiating. Essentially geocachers visit a cave they're interested in placing a cache. About 2-10 feet of ceiling within the cave is scraped clean of bats, stalactites, and other unnecessary debris. Then a re-radiating device is bolted in place with 10 2-3 foot rock bolts, spread evenly across the device so it is snug against the rock. A cable is fed outside to an inefficient gas generator that runs on leaded fuel. To reduce external C02 emissions from the generator a tube is fed back into the cave, which doubles as a way to remove the bat vermin and keep it clean for geocachers.

 

It's pretty effective and the 3-4 geocachers who visit each year can be guaranteed a clean, bat free cave for their hunt.

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

[+Runaround]

quote:

---

A cable is fed outside to an inefficient gas generator that runs on leaded fuel.

---

 

I'm assuming it's a 2 stroke engine. The blue smoke is actually more effective for bat removal than 4 stroke exhaust.

 

Now where did I park my car???????

[+WildcatRegi]

At the caver's org they said:

quote:

---

At the present time, the single biggest impact that geo-caching may have on caves in the posting of cave location on the Internet.

---

 

I think that says about it all, THEY are good, anybody else is bad. They want their places to be known only to themselves! It's OK for them to be crawling around and exploring but heaven forbid if we encourage anybody to stop by for a quick visit!

 

I also found it amusing how the ad-hoc committee constantly said we 'claim' to be concerned about the environment or private property or whatever.

 

 

"The hardest thing to find is something that's not there!"

[+Bloencustoms]

Here's another forum for hikers concerned about the impact geocaching has.

 

"Searching with my good eye closed"

[+Breaktrack]

I just love it when people want to regulate you, but heaven forbid anyone should try to regulate them!!!!

 

I'm sorry, but we have just as much right to be there as they do. If I'm allowed to be somewhere and use the area as a hiker or backpacker (which I've been all my life) then the fact there is an ammo can set out in an area of thousands and thousands of acres is NOT causing a tremendous impact on ANYTHING!!!!

 

Reasonable, rational thought is not being utilized by those who are slamming this little sport of ours.....

 

For all those within our own ranks who rant against the "cache police" when someone trys to state someone, or something, is likely to make the sport look bad, re-think and perhaps contribute rather than rant about it. We either police ourselves, or there are a tremendous number of people out there who will be MORE than happy to do it for us.

 

Once again, JMHO.

 

 

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

[Jeremy]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MuzzleBlast!:

At the caver's org they said:

quote:

---

At the present time, the single biggest impact that geo-caching may have on caves in the posting of cave location on the Internet.

---

 

I think that says about it all, THEY are good, anybody else is bad.

---

 

All jokes aside (my last post), caving can be extremely dangerous and it does make sense to go out with experienced cavers. I would defend them on that point, though their generalizations are mildly offensive. "Us" and "Them" mentalities create a difficult environment for cooperation.

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

[+Bloencustoms]

About 10 years ago, I had almost considered joining the NSS. I was living in another state at the time, but wound up back in New Orleans, where there are no caves for hundreds of miles. They do have a pretty strict set of rules concerning cave usage, and most of them are designed to be in the best interest of the cave. However, the idea that "non-cavers" somehow have less of a right to experience the natural beauty underground is offensive. While cavers are very careful about how they impact the caves, they do quite often drill holes in the limestone for permanent rappel anchors. And often leave fixed ropes and/or caches of supplies if they plan to return at a later date. I fail to see how this differs from a geocache other than the use of a GPS reciever.

In response to Jeremy's post, yes, many caves can be extremely dangerous, and if you aren't familiar with them, definitely bring an experienced guide along. The hazards include mudslides, falling rock, drowning pools, flash floods, sinkholes, tight squeezes (people have gotten stuck and died) not to mention the wildlife.

Still, it's a shame the entire caving community has been programmed to look upon cachers as "interlopers".

 

"Searching with my good eye closed"

[+Genoist]

Leaving a physical cache somewhere could be considered littering. That presents itself as impact to me. So lets ban physical caches.

 

The majority of the world is stupid, and the rest of us are in danger of contagion.

[+Bloencustoms]

quote:

---

Originally posted by TeamSJ1:

Leaving a physical cache somewhere could be considered littering. That presents itself as impact to me.

---

 

What kind of physical caches are you leaving?

 

"Searching with my good eye closed"

[+briansnat]

quote:

---

Leaving a physical cache somewhere could be considered littering.

---

 

OK, I'll bite on this troll.

 

Litter? Nope, see below:

Main Entry: litter

Pronunciation: 'li-t&r

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French litiere, from lit bed, from Latin lectus -- more at LIE

Date: 14th century

 

4 a : trash, wastepaper, or garbage lying scattered about b : an untidy accumulation of objects

 

So by definition a geocache is the exact opposite of litter.

 

"It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues" -Abraham Lincoln

[Nook & Cranny]

Another little point: Many caves are damaged by the exhalation of hot air by its visitors-any visitors-even spelunkers!

 

So maybe it is not the caves they want to protect so much but their exclusive enjoyment of them.

[+JohnnyVegas]

quote:

---

Originally posted by BloenCustoms:

I thought it would be interesting to see what these other groups are saying about Geocaching.

 

Let's use this thread to link to sites about geocaching's alleged impact, that we may be more informed as a community about what non-cachers think of our activity.

 

I'll start it off with http://www.caves.org/nss-business/reports/jun02/pres.html#GEO-CACHING. I'll try to find more...

 

http://angelfire.com/pro/bloen/images/eyes.GIF

"Searching with my good eye closed"

 

[This message was edited by BloenCustoms on April 16, 2003 at 06:02 PM.]

---

 

What I see in that link is a group of people that do not understand that a GPS will not work in a Cave. I also see in the same group of people a need to keep there activity for them alone and a need to keep caving a private club.

Has anyone noticed when a area becomes "Open Space' in reality in Becomes "Closed Space" as far as access.

[+BeOnTheLookOut]

They actually have Geocaching Incident Rangers.

Wonder how much that job pays? Kind of relates to the thread about Can Geocaching become a job?

 

"And how is education supposed to make me feel smarter? Besides, every time I learn something new, it pushes some old stuff out of my brain. Remember when I took that home winemaking course, and I forgot how to drive?"

[Cavess]

Dear All,

 

Once again I see that the geocaching/cave caches debate has arisen again.

 

If anyone is interested in how the NSS REALLY views the geocaching community, please see the most recent NSS business pages:

 

http://www.caves.org/nss-business/reports/mar03/avp.html#Geocaching

 

I guess I'm just dissapointed that despite what appeared to be some significant progress on working together between our communities, certain members of this forum seem only to want to dwell on the negative.

 

Regardless, I appreciate the number of geocachers and cavers who have come forward with offers of help and mutual respect!

 

Hazel

[+Wander Lost]

Hazel,

 

That's a very nice write up. Please don't take everything said in here as gospel. Unfortunately some cachers are quick to hit 'Post Now' before they consider how their comments might be viewed by people outside the geocaching community. (Myself included sometimes)

 

I hope your efforts to establish a good working environment with the local caching community continue to go well. I also hope your example is followed by other organizations that have similar concerns.

[+Bloencustoms]

It's good to see that there is an effort on the part of the NSS to do more research into what caching entails. I suspect that most people's motivation in placing a cache has to do with sharing a special location with fellow enthusiasts, and we wouldn't want that location to be spoiled for future finders. Who wants to see spray paint on the ceiling? I had the unfortunate experience myself in a cave in California. Very depressing. The texture of the ceiling was such that it would be very difficult to scrub the paint off without snapping fragile formations. The park had cemented a 55 gallon drum into the cave's entrance, and locked it with an iron gate. But, somehow, that wasn't enough.

Anyway, why couldn't a cacher be as easy on a cave as a caver?

 

"Searching with my good eye closed"

[Cavess]

In response to BloenCustoms comment:

 

> Why couldn't a cacher be as easy on a cave as a caver?

 

The short answer is no one has said that they can't. Our concern is simply the posting of sensitive cave locations on the internet, not to prevent conciencious cachers from finding caves. We simply aim to protect caves from those with no regard for the sensitive cave environment - ie. vandals.

 

For the long answer, this debate went on 'ad nauseum' on this list previously, so please refer to the topic 'Caches in caves'.

 

Hope that helps,

 

Hazel

[+RJFerret]

quote:

---

Originally posted by BloenCustoms:

About 10 years ago, I had almost considered joining the NSS.

...

They do have a pretty strict set of rules concerning cave usage, and most of them are designed to be in the best interest of the cave. However, the idea that "non-cavers" somehow have less of a right to experience the natural beauty underground is offensive. While cavers are very careful about how they impact the caves, they do quite often drill holes in the limestone for permanent rappel anchors.

---

 

To correct some misconceptions (as a lifetime NSS member). Yes, there are strict considerations to responsible cave usage, but NO rules (save those of caves they own). There is NO "idea that 'non-cavers'...have less...right", in fact the EXACT opposite: its encouraged! We'll even loan safety equipment and guide you to more wild caves and show you the neat formations. We will enthusiastically share these beautiful, precious places just how we do by placing caches.

 

Climbers put bolts in caves, then cavers go and remove them. It was a BIG issue a few years ago and probably continues...

 

The problem is when a cave is damaged or destroyed, that's fairly permanent. The formations take literally THOUSANDS of years to "grow". Many are fragile. This precious resource can readily be annihilated, such that nobody else may appreciate it.

 

The NSS has consistently stated it has no problem with caches. It has a problem with coordinates being advertised publicly (on any website) or caches drawing people to sensitive/fragile caves whose only protection is "secrecy".

 

Simple solution they suggested, use an Offset Cache or Multicache! (Then hopefully the cave won't get plundered/vandalized.)

 

They have been very receptive, supportive, and extended a hand to us--why do so many of us slap it?

 

We complain and are unhappy when caches are vandalized, yet a cache is simply/inexpensively replaced. A cave and it's formations can NEVER be truely replaced, and gating a cave costs BIG money.

 

Randy

 

PS: There are caves that even CAVERS are not allowed to visit.

[+T-storm]

I thought the following quote from another section of the referenced NSS report was interesting:

quote:

---

I did receive one report where a register book was found burned. This has happened before but it is usually extremely rare cases. Apparently, some spelunkers consider the CCUS register book as a third source of light in emergencies.

---

Seems that the cavers disagree amongst themselves a bit just as some cachers argue over the appropriateness of placing caches in some types of parkland. Just an interesting tidbit that struck me kinda funny.

 

T-storm

 

http://www.cordianet.com/geocaching

[+Bloencustoms]

This thread isn't about NSS bashing, If you read above, I had even considered joining years back. Most of the people I spoke to were very friendly.

The original intent was for people to post links from outside the geocaching community to better understand how the sport's environmental impact is viewed by others. I want to know where these park managers are getting all of the negative input from. Perhaps we could find a way to get to them before they are misinformed.

 

"Searching with my good eye closed"