Lost signal under trees on my first trip

[+Joba and Geo Jake]

Hey all-

 

I borrowed my fathers Garmin GPSMAP 196 to take my kids out and see if they were going to like geocaching before spending the money on a GPS. Good news- They had a riot and can't wait to get out and set our first cache. They already have one of moms tupperware bowls full of old happy meal toys ready to go. Bad news was that I lost signal almost immediatly when going under any type of tree cover.

 

Living in the upper mid-west, it seems like this would be the number one quality when looking for a GPS purchace. I see the SporTrak listed in other threads for a good sale price. Do they keep their signal under tree cover?

 

If not, which do you think is the best?

 

I am going entry level so I do not really want to spend more than a couple of hundred dollars.

 

Thanks

[+Stunod]

You should look for a unit with a quad-helix antenna. Many people agree that this is the best type of antenna for use in the dense forest. I see from the Garmin MAP 196 spec page, that you were using a quad...not sure why you had so many problems.

 

I have a Meridian Plat and have few problems with losing signals. I'm sure you'll get many other suggestions here!

 

"Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand."

[+YukonMike]

I agree with Stunod. I also have a Magellan Meridian Platinum, and I rarely have any trouble losing signal under tree cover. I even pick up five or six satellites inside my house. Be sure to put in some time searching around on the web. You can find some really good deals on GPS units. I got mine from Compuplus.com. Happy hunting.

YukonMike

 

YukonMike

[+Renegade Knight]

There is tree cover and tree cover and I lost signal in it.

 

When I do I hold the GPS vertical and above my body. That seems to help. I'm not sure about the vertical part but once you get something to work better it becomes part of the ritual.

 

=====================

Wherever you go there you are.

[+beatified]

You might look for something that allows the use of an external antenna. Although it might seem that it would make no difference to use an external antenna I get roughly 2 times the signal strenght out of my GPS with the external antenna than I do without it. I have the Garmin GPSMAP 76s (a little pricey) and this is one of the better GPS units out there right now. I think we got it for about $385 and you can get an antenna for about $30. The antenna helps because it is actually an active antenna (amplified) its powered. In my area I can recieve almost constantly (not under trees and thing but in open area) WAAS or differential singnals on all the satillites as long as there in veiw but using an external antenna greatly improves the singnal strength.

I am pretty sure that garmin has a few GPS units that allow for an external antenna.

Good luck

beatified

[+nincehelser]

As you've found, the quad-helix antenna isn't immune to the tree-cover problem. All GPS receivers, regardless of the antenna type, suffer from this problem to some extent.

 

I'd worry less about the antenna, and more about features that can really make a big difference in enjoyment....like mapping, a small pocket size, expandable memory, or doing fancy routing on your car's dash.

 

Truth be told, any GPS receiver on the market today will work just dandy for geocaching. You aren't going to find people complaining they can't find a cache because of brand X, antenna Y, of feature Z.

 

George

[+chris-mouse]

I've used both my current Sportrack Pro and an ancient GPS2000xl under heavy tree cover without much of a problem. Neither one was perfect, they both had accuracy problems under the trees, but they were usable.

A couple of things help though. First, keep conducting objects like hands etc away from the antenna, no matter what type it is.

Second, watch the orientation. A patch type antenna works best when horizontal, the helical types work best when vertical. Note that this is the antenna orientation that matters, not the orientation of the GPS unit itself. Check the GPS manual for the manufacturer's recommendations and follow them.

Third, slow down. I find that when I'm moving, even at a walk, the GPS can be indicating a spot well behind where I am now. I've found that stopping about 100 feet short of the cache and letting the GPS catch up to me makes a big difference. Next time you're walking with the GPS, stop for a minute or so, and watch what happens. I've seen my position continue to change for 50-60 feet after I've stopped.

 

<o_o>

[+MacDaddy]

Garmin Etrex Vista User here x 6 months. I am frequently in the woods here, thick canopy in S.E. Alaska, and often very wet.

If I acquire satellites prior to entering the canopy, I am much more successful in keeping my satellites. If I try to acquire once in the canopy, it still happens, but much slower.

I am also almost always on on side of some steep ridge, which of course screws me for reception in that direction.

But 95% of the time I set my pack down, and put the GPS'r on top of it and let it 'settle', and it acquires, and I'm off again. Hint: put bright tape on your GPS'r if you want to find it again after setting it down!

Haven't tried holding my GPS'r over my head and walking in circles yet, afraid someone might see me...

 

My two cents, and a money back gaurantee!

 

"There's no need to be afraid of strange noises in the night. Anything that intends you harm will stalk you silently."

[+Joba and Geo Jake]

Thanks all for your support. I am going to hit the Costco over the weekend with one of my friends that has a membership and pick up the Sportrak special.

 

Next week, my son and I will be setting our first caches in Door County Wisconsin while on vacation.

 

Thanks again for all of the advice

 

[+Spzzmoose]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Team Cacheup:

Thanks all for your support. I am going to hit the Costco over the weekend with one of my friends that has a membership and pick up the Sportrak special.

 

Next week, my son and I will be setting our first caches in Door County Wisconsin while on vacation.

 

Team Cacheup... I don't mean to be a stick-in-the-mud but you might not want to place your caches while on vacay. You need to maintain them every once in a while so the approvers almost alway's turn them down. Get a few finds under your belt before you place a cache, it will help makes yours even better when you know what to do and not do from personal experiance. I still havent placed my first but I'm starting to get some good ideas and will soon after a few more finds! Good luck and welcome!! Have fun!

 

Thanks again for all of the advice

 

---

[+White Feather]

I took my brand new eTrex Legend out for the first time today in an unsuccessful attempt to find a geocache. In the open field starting out it gave an accuracy figure of 142 ft. while receiving seven satellites. That alone looks to me to be unusable in searching for geocaches. When I entered the woods the Legend had no clue where we were but that didn't stop it from telling me. After allowing it time to settle out it would say the geocache is due East 110 ft. I would take six or seven steps in that direction and it would tell me I needed to go due West 146 ft. I could probably do as well with just a topo map. Right now I am not sure the Legend is worth the effort it would take to throw it into the trash can.

 

Are these things only useful for city-to-city navigation on the interstate?

[+MacDaddy]

Depending on signal strength, you may get what some call erroneous readings.

After you use it in different amounts of cover, or areas of reflection/deflection you'll get a feel for it's accuracy. Sometimes when you get down to 100 feet or slightly less, it's time to put the receiver in your pocket and start looking. And there are many folks who have logged many caches without a GPS'r.

But, if you do feel like throwing it in the trash, give me a ring, I'll give you a good price for it.

 

"There's no need to be afraid of strange noises in the night. Anything that intends you harm will stalk you silently."

[+White Feather]

If you can't expect to get closer than a hundred feet with a GPS I don't see the need for one. I would think most people could come within that distance with just a topo map. I have found four geocaches without a GPS but only because there were very explicit directions to help me find them. They were hidden so well I'd hate to have to search over an area of nearly three quarters of an acre with a fine tooth comb every time I try to find a geocache.

 

And I thought this was a hobby I could really get into.

 

Just how good a price are we talking?

[+nincehelser]

If you're in an open area, you should easily get down into 15 feet or so of estimated error, perhaps better.

 

Since you say you're getting 7 sats, I assume you have good signal.

 

Perhaps your almanac hasn't been properly updated. You might try to let it sit out in the open for 1/2 hour or so to get the latest data.

 

If that doesn't work, return it for a new unit since it is obvioulsy defective. The Legend is known for fine performance, so it isn't a problem with that particular model.

 

George

[+MacDaddy]

No, don't get me wrong, you will very likely have your GPS lead you right up to a geocache. A lot will depend on the accuracy of the GPS'r of the person placing the cache as well.

The first time I found South Chatfield in Denver, it took me to within 5 feet of the cache, from there it was just a matter of looking for something that didn't look quite right.

I really hope you have better luck next time. I really enjoy this thing some call a sport, I'm not sure what it is, but I think it's fun.

Putting a cache out is fun as well, and then watching as folks discover it, and log it hopefully.

Have fun, I hope it works out for you.

 

"There's no need to be afraid of strange noises in the night. Anything that intends you harm will stalk you silently."

[+Joba and Geo Jake]

All I can say is WOW. I picked up the SporTrak Pro this weekend and this unit is going to be perfect!!! I downloaded all of the maps for the area and my son and I went on an all day adventure.

 

We found 3 caches. The SproTrak took us within 20 feet and 2 were under heavy tree cover. This unit is very user friendly. Creating Waypoints is a snap!

 

Thanks to you veterans who suffered through my avalanche of redundant questions.

 

[GeoPernas]

quote:

---

Originally posted by White Feather:

In the open field starting out it gave an accuracy figure of 142 ft. while receiving seven satellites. That alone looks to me to be unusable in searching for geocaches.

---

 

I have a V, but it gets a bit wonky when I'm not holding it flat. Also, do you have WAAS turned on? That helps a lot. 142/110 ft isn't right at all, I regularly get ~10 ft accuracy, with up to 30 for bad tree cover.

[+Team Shibby]

quote:

---

as previously posted by Whit Feather:

I took my brand new eTrex Legend out for the first time today in an unsuccessful attempt to find a geocache. In the open field starting out it gave an accuracy figure of 142 ft. while receiving seven satellites.

---

 

May I ask if you gave the unit a chance to build an almanac before venturing off to look for caches, or did you open the box, install the batts, plug in a cache coordinate and head out the door? Cause thats what it sounds like you did

 

Kar

[+White Feather]

Building an 'almanac' is a new term to me. I saw nothing about that in the owner's manual. When I put the batteries in several weeks ago I took it out in the back yard and left it turned on there for at least a half hour. Would that help?

 

I had noticed that there was no WAAS satellite even on the satellite display yesterday. I just found that WAAS was disabled. I have no idea why. I have enabled it and will give it one more try. It certainly was unusable yesterday without it. If it turns out that I can't use it until the leaves fall in November I will be a very unhappy camper.

 

Thanks for the responses.

[+Team Shibby]

The amanac if the information that is collected and stored in the GPS. It lists the health of the satellite as well as its location. Having the latest almanac in your GPS will decrease the time it takes for your system to "search and acquire" the signal as well assist in calculating your exact location. If you operate your reciever without this updated information, your receiver can start to act funny.

 

Kar

 

TEAM SHIBBY!!!!

 

Krs, Kar & Na

[+White Feather]

OK, I'll bite. How do I get the latest almanac into my Legend? My manual does not even mention such a thing.

[+Team Shibby]

Simply leave it turned on with a clear view of the sky. Let it sit for 20 - 30 minutes and your all set. If you have a clear view of the southern sky, make sure you have WAAS enabled.

 

This is not something you have to do all the time, but it is especially important before using it for the first time.

 

Kar

[+marinor]

I never have a problem with tree cover

 

 

Life is just an illusion, albeit a very elaborate one.

[+MacDaddy]

Well, my secret is out..how did you get my picture? Where's my Vista?

 

"There's no need to be afraid of strange noises in the night. Anything that intends you harm will stalk you silently."

[+marinor]

with the vista you were not smiling, so a few of the guys chimped in and gave you an upgrade to a real gpsr

 

Life is just an illusion, albeit a very elaborate one.

[+Have Cache WILL Travel]

I have the same problem- my Magellan 3000XL goes buggo within 100 yards of a tree. I managed to use it on ONE geocache so far, that was out in the open. On every other cache I've been on, it has given me readings from 100yds to over a mile away from my actual location, and usually remains unlocked with no change in location registrering at all until I get back to the parking lot. If I leave it out in the open, sometimes it will lock in 15 minutes or so, after half an hour I give up and use the topo and satellite maps I bring with me, which so far is the only thing that's been useful in finding caches.

I read all the posts above, and in other threads, but nobody seems to be saying that XXX brand unit is better than another. I know mine must suck, because y'all would not be finding anything if you had my unit.

I don't need fancy mapping, but I will buy a garmin V if it actually will lock. Somebody please help with a recommendation? I need a unit that will hold lock in dense cover, all other considerations like mapping are secondary. Any sub-$600 unit considered.

Recommendations??

Also, which how-to is the best to read as far as how to store and D/L waypoints?

Thanks!

[+Tahoe Skier5000]

I get flawless coverage under trees with my V.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------

Garmin V

Garmin III+

[Kerry.]

quote:

---

Originally posted by volks_ev71:

I get flawless coverage under trees with my V.

---

 

Flawless cover! well there's trees and then there's trees. For every tree that one "might" get "reasonable" reception in/under there's a thousand more that will knock that thinking for six.

 

In simple terms there's no receiver made that will hold a full lock at all times in dense tree cover. GPS receivers simply don't like trees but if someone is going to claim perfect reception in so called trees then at least try and qualify the trees, otherwise stating that brand XX is perfect in simply "trees" says bugga all and is rather (very) misleading.

 

Cheers, Kerry.

 

I never get lost everybody keeps telling me where to go

[+Sissy-n-CR]

I have a STMap and so far the only times I've had problems is under very heavy tree cover with a wet canopy. Even then I was still getting signal, just not a lot of satellites so my accuracy was way off. I don't recall ever completely losing lock in the woods due to tree cover.

 

CR

 

[+Essiar]

My SporTrak Pro seems to work fine under heavy tree cover. Not quite as good as in the wide open but pretty darn close to it. If it seems off a bit I just take a few steps and it seems to lock right back on. I have never used a Garmin so I have no first hand knowledge but there does seem to be a common thread in these forums that the Quadrahelix antenae (or whatever it's called) on the Magellnas seems to do a better job under cover. Has anyone ever used both at the same time under trees and seen a difference?

[+MacDaddy]

I just finished teaching a search and rscue class in the Denver area, using Garmins, (etrex vista, Garmin12, 12XL) as well as a Magellan. Of course we did some geocaching as part of the class, and under the trees they performed remarkably similar. We found that it really depended on satellite position, and terrain. The other instructor using a Magellan had to wait a tiny bit longer for signal acquisition, and preferred the speed at which I could bring up different functions on the Vista. He also liked the clarity and contrast of the screen, bu he absolutely HATES the screen size!

 

"There's no need to be afraid of strange noises in the night. Anything that intends you harm will stalk you silently."