Acceptable cache contents?

November 20, 2002

We received an email today that started by asking the question - "Does being a charter member permit you to dictate what is and what is not suitable for others to view ?"

Background - On Sunday we did a cache that contained right at the top of the cache box, even above the cache letter, a small business card with a picture of a naked woman of more than ample proportions. Neither Kim or myself considered this to be the kind of thing that is acceptable to be left in a cache, so we removed it. I noted on the cache log that we had done so as we considered it neither appropriate or amusing.

It seems that "totus41" disagrees. He/she continues in their email to us - "I have seen an example of the "offensive" card with my young family who thought they were amusing and good innocent fun. It is obvious that you still cover the piano legs in your house...... Kids see stronger things on advertisements, T.V., newsagents shelves and everyday life."

So "totus41" thinks that we need to "face reality (2002)" and that “by acting as censure and policeman(woman) you are attacking the spirit of the hunt.”

Whatever that means?

Is this the way that geocaching is going? Is it acceptable? We would be most interested to know the opinions of others.

Alex & Kim. (Prudes) - alledgedly.

November 20, 2002

Definitely not acceptable contents.

You were right to remove it. This is a family sport. even if kids do see worse on TV, they didn't ought to be, and it's no excuse for this good natured sport to be another accesory to lewdity.

I shall certainly continue to remove any items from caches that are definitely in breach of the geocaching.com rules.

Rock on.

--

**Mother is the name of God on the lips of all children**

November 20, 2002

I agree that the contents of a cache should be chosen with care and not offensive, perhaps rather than say what you found in the log it might have been better to say "took business card left ....". I know that may sound a bit PC but sometimes it is better to say less than more and the result is the same, bad removed and better put in its place. Think about it as trading up.

November 20, 2002

This sort of thing should not be placed in caches.. What is OK to one can be offensive to another.

I for one am just pleased that Trunchball wasn't there to find this "inofensive piece material".. Is this the thin end of the wedge?

I for one will bin anything I find offensive.. Why? because the next cacher could be a impressionable 7 year old, open to the views of an elder generation..

Lets keep the SMUTT out of Geocaching please..

Moss de Boss... Sorta

November 20, 2002

We have always cached as a family, Inevitably its the kids who open the box or bag or whatever, I rely on my fellow cachers to ensure that Roo aged 6 and Mick aged 8 see only stuff appropriate to a Universal Cert on a film... so far we've never been disappointed.

Censorship? yes it is, but where do you draw the line otherwise.. Adult only caches?

Shares in Tupperware? Be a Geocacher!

November 20, 2002

Slytherin, Totus41 has no basis for denying you the right to remove any item from a cache. As long as you don't remove the logbook and camera, you can take anything else you like!

Tell them that and tell them to stop spamming you with emails.

Its that easy. Morality and ethics actually are a spurious sideline to this and should not be allowed to cloud otherwise clear thinking.

No trees were harmed during the production of this posting, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced....

1k · November 20, 2002

Before I make my comment do I get a peek?

LoL....no seriously it isnt acceptable ofcourse not I mean it quite clearly states in the rules you aren't allowed to do this sort of thing and removing it was the best thing to do.

Pid

Ben Piddington http://www.buckscaching.co.uk

6.5k · November 20, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Slytherin:
So "totus41" thinks that we need to "face reality (2002)" and that “by acting as censure and policeman(woman) you are attacking the spirit of the hunt.”

Is this hunt they speak of, a hunt for porno?

quote:
Is it acceptable?

No it is not acceptable!

As much as Geo Weasel (or anyone elase for that matter) might enjoy porno it shouldnt be in geocaches.

What i want to know is why this person is b@#$%^ing, if it was in a cache(and wasn't the log) isnt it open game for trading?

November 20, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Geo Weasel:
I mean it quite clearly states in the rules you aren't allowed to do this sort of thing

Does it? where?

Don't get me wrong, Ben, I'm not saying it *shouldn't*, I'm just saying I can't find where it *does*. I would be pleased if you could enlighten me.

No trees were harmed during the production of this posting, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced....

November 20, 2002

Where i agree that porn should most definatly not be allowed in caches for very obvious reason i also cant believe for one second this person planted porn with any ill intent. If I am wrong, then this cacher should be excluded but i think he/she should have their say before we all judge them. Maybe it was some sort of joke that wasn't properly thought through or maybe it wouldn't be offensive to most. Any chance you could email the offending party and get them to air their views here slytherin?

(Not a dig just standing up for innocence before proven guilty)

Dan Wilson - www.Buckscaching.co.uk

6.5k · November 20, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by MCL:
Does it? where?

Don't get me wrong, Ben, I'm not saying it *shouldn't*, I'm just saying I can't find where it *does*. I would be pleased if you could enlighten me.

Well, right here Jeremy said to remove porn if you find it. In the FAQ it says, "Use your common sense in most cases. Explosives, ammo, drugs, and alcohol shouldn't be placed in a cache. Respect the local laws. All ages of people hide and seek caches, so use some thought before placing an item into a cache." under the What shouldnt be in a cache, heading.

November 20, 2002

The offending item was not porn. It was nothing that you wouldn't see on the front cover of a top shelf mag, or on page 3 of the Sun.

But it still wasn't appropriate cache fodder.

We are happy to see that the concensus is that we did the right thing.

Alex.

November 21, 2002

In the same way that there is no written instruction that you should not "trash a cache" there is no direct reference to porn, other than those mentioned above.

Neither of these need to be written down, surely. Okay, I understand that these cards mignt not be pornographic per-se, but is it worth the risk of condemnation.

Consider the negative publicity this might engender. If someone wanted to have a pop at geocaching, this is just the sort of thing they will grab hold of.

Consider also that this website is viewable by all, even those using parental controls like "Net Nanny". Therefore we should be careful about the content to prevent GC.com becoming filtered. Please think about this in your logs.

On the subject of suitable content for a cache, it is worth re-iterating about things like pocket knives, cigarette lighters and alcohol.

We visited a cache in ancient woodland where it is obvious that kids do go and play, often without parental control. In the cache, (which had been accidentally found twice according to the log book) we found a cigarette lighter which had been part of the original cache content. As I said, this was in an ancient woodland, if some kids found the cache and decided to build a little bonfire ...

Food is quoted as being unsuitable as cache content and the reason might not be immediately obvious. Because animals can smell the food in a cache, they are likely to follow the scent whilst forraging. If a cache has been carefully covered with twigs and leaves, the animal is likely to try to dig up the food. If the container is plastic, it might get chewed, but at the very least it will be left exposed to view. I tried to teach a badger to cover up the cache again but he just grunted and walked off. Huh! ignorance eh

Tim & June (Winchester)

See June, I told you that sign which said 'Unsuitable for Motor Vehicles' was wrong !

November 21, 2002

Slytherin: That which you see on the cover of a 'top-shelf mag' *is* porn, which is why many places cover these mags up whilst on display. Besides, pornography means the "pictorial or graphical representation of sexual matetrs", and so I'd like you to explain how a picture of a naked lady (unless dispalyed in an anatomical/medical sense) could be anything but pornography, albeit reasonably mild.

--

**Mother is the name of God on the lips of all children**

November 21, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Tim & June:
I tried to teach a badger to cover up the cache again but he just grunted and walked off. Huh! ignorance eh

I am sure Geo Badger is a bit more responsible than that

Seriously though, some people should employ a bit more "common sense" (difficult to define) when trading or placing cache items. Apart from the practical matters mentioned by Tim and June above, an item that isn't neccessarily offensive to one person may well be to another. If there is any doubt, leave it out - its just not worth the potential bad feelings.

Rich

mobilis in mobili

November 21, 2002

Well done , You were right to remove rubbish like that, you have to protect the junior catcher's.

Its a clean sport apart from the mud and wet feet, so lets keep it that way, Was this a home country cache or was from abroad? I dont think I have heard of totus41, and if I find anything in a cache which of that nature or harmful then I will remove and destroy the articles.

But having said that , I have not found anything of that sort in the 204 caches that I have found that needed to be removed , this goes to prove that we are all responsible types, and I know that it will stay that way,

Nige , In a throwing it down with rain Tyne Valley

November 21, 2002

I've removed contents before from caches (alcohol) because I worried for the next finder - who might well be a child.

As it happened, the cache owner was happy for me to remove it (actually, it was Tim and June's cache), but I did run the risk of the owner complaining that it wasn't my right to do so.

Personally, I would say remove it - the owner may be angry, but what for? You've removed adult material from a family game - it has no place in geocaching, is my opinion (and it is only an opinion).

EDIT: Is totus41 not the owner of the cache? If not, shouldn't the owner be the one to judge whether or not you did the right thing?

------

An it harm none, do what ye will

[This message was edited by Kouros on November 21, 2002 at 02:33 AM.]

November 21, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Huga:
...I'd like you to explain how a picture of a naked lady (unless dispalyed in an anatomical/medical sense) could be anything but pornography, albeit reasonably mild.

Art? See all those classic oil paintings in the Tate for example.

NB - I am not in any way agreeing with the placement of this material in the cache (see my comment above). I just wanted to answer the specific point that anything with a picture of a naked lady on it is considered pornographic.

Rich

mobilis in mobili

November 21, 2002

Well, in the strictest sense, it is pornographic, but there are certain lines drawn when it comes to art.

Business cards with buxom naked ladies probably don't count as art.

--

**Mother is the name of God on the lips of all children**

1.4k · November 21, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Huga:
Business cards with buxom naked ladies probably don't count as art.

Unless Tracey Emin was to nail them to a plank - in which case not only would it be art but also it would be very expensive art

Chris

Bear rescues a speciality!

London & UK Geocaching Resources: http://www.sheps.clara.net

November 21, 2002

We agree that it was unsuitable, and as for kids seeing these thing on television. I can assure everyone that our 4 children don't.

We only have a television for the winter, and then it is only used for video/dvd

As for alcohol, i have removed alcohol from a cache....and very nice it was too.

(not a good idea though)

Tech-no notice

November 21, 2002

Is it only porno if you enjoy it in a sexual way?

Other than that it's art, which you shouldn't enjoy???

No flames just kidding.

Shares in Tupperware? Be a Geocacher!

November 21, 2002

I generally go by the rule, if it is illegal for a child under 16 to buy it in a shop, you shouldn't put it in.

From your description it sounds like the picture was borderline acceptable from the point of view of being acceptable to be displayed. But borders are different for different people. There are plenty of things that could have been in the cache not offensive to anybody, therefore you did the right thing in a) removing it :rolleyes: pointing out that there are a lot of people who have a problem with this stuff.

-------

jeremyp

The second ten million caches were the worst too.

http://www.jeremyp.net/geocaching

November 21, 2002

We wouldn't be happy to find anything like that picture in a cache - try answering the question "Why is there a picture of a naked lady in there? from a 6 year old boy. Explanations could be quite difficult! Only yesterday I was asked what a virgin was by the 6 year old and the 9 year old went one better by asking what an intimate part of a female body was! We don't shelter them that much but what they do see & know about is monitored by us, something that could be quite difficult when they like to be the first to open a cache, which is all the fun of the game for them!

Sarah (Team Tate)

Team Tate

Remember - if it's moving, it's not dead...

November 21, 2002

Our 5 year old and 3 year old take it in turns to open a cache and in allowing them to do this we are trusting the Geocaching community to maintain family orientated contents.

If any of you find contents that are inappropriate then please remove them - we've certainly done this on several occasions.

I have to say that I'm suspicious of the intent of totus41 in sending this Email. totus41 is yet another cacher with no finds/hides and clearly an alias. Why? An otherwise "respectable" member of the caching community? Or stirring the forum to enjoy the debate?

Any environment which allows the participants anonymity lays itself open to being stirred up in this way. However, what matters to us is the knowledge that other cachers share our values and will behave accordingly where it really counts - in the field (and woodlands, hilltops etc etc).

Dave

1.2k · November 26, 2002

I'm generally against setting hard and fast rules as to what is and what is not acceptable. What I find acceptable my colleagues may not and vice versa. I much prefer the "use your commonsense" approach.

In this case (not having seen the offending article) although I probably wouldn't have been offended personally I would probably have removed it. Why - because other people have their own values which they try to pass on to their own children, children who will possibly open a cache.

As for alcohol I consider this to be quite different. I have placed, and found, miniatures of various drinks and consider them to be nice prizes for adult cachers. They make a nice change from McToys now and again. As for children finding them, how many small children go caching on their own? Very few if any I guess. Yes, children who are caual passers by COULD find the cache and take the drink but hey - they could also raid their own parents' drinks cabinets as well. On balance I think the risk is small.

Lighters - I'm less sure. Again kids can very easily get hold of them and if they're going to light a fire in the woods I would guess they would likely as not come prepared. I personally wouldn't put a lighter in one of my caches but there again I wouldn't remove one from somebody else's.

Just to reiterate my golden rule - Use COMMONSENSE

_________________________________________________________

It is better to regret something you did, rather than to regret something you didn't do.

November 27, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by The Hornet:
In this case (not having seen the offending article) although I probably wouldn't have been offended personally I would probably have removed it.

I thought that Kim had binned the card, but she found it in the bottom of her bag yesterday.

Not sure if I'm doing the right thing, but here is a link to a picture of the card that was left in the cache. If anyone thinks it's not appropriate, I will remove it. I have marked it Over 18s ONLY, so that cuts you out Michael. (Unless your dad says it's OK. )

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~alexa/cachecard.htm

November 27, 2002

On reflection it is maybe not a good idea to post the picture in its original form. So I have changed it slightly.

Alex.

[This message was edited by Slytherin on November 27, 2002 at 03:05 AM.]

November 27, 2002

I'd pretty much say that was unacceptable cache contents.

Too bleedin' right you removed it

--

**Mother is the name of God on the lips of all children**

1.4k · November 27, 2002

I think you did the right thing by removing it - though I hope you put something back to replace it

Chris

Bear rescues a speciality!

London & UK Geocaching Resources: http://www.sheps.clara.net

1.2k · November 27, 2002

Having seen the article I stick by what I said previously. You were right to remove it and althoughI'm not upset by it I can see no redeeming features (!) such as humour etc. It seems to be a common advertising card. Absolutely no place for it in a cache.

Well done Alex.

_________________________________________________________

It is better to regret something you did, rather than to regret something you didn't do.

November 27, 2002

Good job, I would not have liked Mick or Roo to find thatin a cache, think of the questions...

"dunno son -ask yer muther!"

Shares in Tupperware? Be a Geocacher!

November 29, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Slytherin:
It seems that "totus41" disagrees. He/she continues in their email to us - "I have seen an example of the "offensive" card with my young family who thought they were amusing and good innocent fun. It is obvious that you still cover the piano legs in your house...... Kids see stronger things on advertisements, T.V., newsagents shelves and everyday life."

Perhaps Totus41s' children see worst on television but that doesn't give them the right to push it onto my children.

Quite right to remove it.

Kev (Icenians)

Statistics show that those with the most birthdays live longest.

December 2, 2002

Quoth the Hornet:

quote:
It seems to be a common advertising card.

Not common in my neck of the woods...you obviously live somewhere a bit more, erm, cosmopolitan.

Well done removing it, Slytherin.

evilrooster

-the email of the species is deadlier than the mail-

1.2k · December 2, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by evilrooster:
Quoth the Hornet:

quote:
It seems to be a common advertising card.

Not common in my neck of the woods...you obviously live somewhere a bit more, erm, cosmopolitan.

Well done removing it, Slytherin.

_evilrooster_

-the email of the species is deadlier than the mail-

This sort of thing is extremely common in London. Just about every public phone box in the West End is littered with the dadgum things. There again I've yet to find one in Watford (not that I'm looking you understand)!!

_________________________________________________________

It is better to regret something you did, rather than to regret something you didn't do.

December 4, 2002

As regards alchol: It goes against the guidelines, and leaving caches chock full of booze is probably not a good idea (although it might help Dan & Pid find the meaning of life).

But, having said that I flouted the rules once by adding a miniture bottle of rum to a cache I made which had a smuggling theme, as I felt it was appropiate to the location which was used by smugglers to stash contrabrand including rum. I felt it was unlikely a child would visit the location without parential supervision and the rum made a nice little touch of humour. Nobody has yet complained.

Common sense *should* be the key as the other examples of questionable content would seem to be inappropiate to the majority of cachers.

*******************************************************

Don't mention the mushrooms

*******************************************************

January 11, 2003

I'm new to Geocaching, but a long time hill walker and I was delighted to be able to use the idea of a "Treasure Hunt" to introduce our little girl to the great outdoors. I hope the day never comes when I have to inspect the caches before she sees what's in them, to prevent her seeing something like the card that is the topic of this thread.

January 11, 2003

Widening the theme a little, I've discovered several items in various caches that worried me a little. Not from my opinions about morals or taste, but more to do with practical and safety issues.

In one cache, in a woodland area, was a lighter full of liquid gas. In another, which had become waterlogged, was the soggy remains of a bar of soap. Today, in another cache into which water had got in, was a cardboard packet of mints and a couple of boiled sweets.

Now, I'm not trying to have ago about the quality of the items, but just the practicallities of leaving flamable materials in woodland, where a dry spell will heat the cache and the bracken might become tinder dry, or sweets which will dissolve in water in a cache.

The mints had started to disolve over the rest of the items, as had the bar of soap in one I found a few months ago. I have to admit that I decided it wasn't up to me to remove the sticky mess left behind, so I did what I could to dry the cache out and left the items in there.

So, perhaps a quick read of the guidlines might be a good starting point?

In my own opinion, I think I would rather someone took something without leaving anything, rather than leaving sweets, matches, lighters or anything that could melt all over the rest of the items, or cause a fire!

--... ...--

Morseman

January 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Morseman:
I have to admit that I decided it wasn't up to me to remove the sticky mess left behind, so I did what I could to dry the cache out and left the items in there.

I reckon you should have removed the sticky items to help maintain the cache. I have done this a few times in the past.

Rich

mobilis in mobili

January 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by el10t:
I reckon you should have removed the sticky items to help maintain the cache. I have done this a few times in the past.

Rich

_mobilis in mobili_

This is a good principle which we'd ask everyone to follow. If we all think about the contents of each cache that we visit then we'll have a regular check on safety / longevity / suitability. We started to do this recently.

Dave

January 15, 2003

Although I do not have children I always ensure that what I put into a cache reflects that a lot of the time children may be first to open it.

So I do not put any of the following in caches I find:

Knives- It is up to the parents if they feel their children can have penknives. Don't put them in caches.

Adult material- Already covered. Lets try to keep the young cachers away from this stuff until it is appropriate for them to see it. The reason this stuff is top shelf is to prevent the vertically challenged youngsters from seeing it. Most newsagents put this sort of stuff in plastic bags that conceal the dubious covers.

Matches- How would you like to see the wood your cache/the cache you have just found burnt down?

Fireworks- Pretty obvious why not really.

Foodstuffs- Tins of stuff is acceptable but they all will have a sellby date so it is not a great idea. Any soft packaged stuff could get tampered with by non cachers. There are some sick people about.

Drugs/Pills- This can be a innocent as paracetamol. Any pill is a no-no. Putting illegal drugs in a cache is so wrong I do not know where to start.

In summary anything a child could misuse or injure themselves on should not be put into a cache. If I find any of these items in a cache I will remove it.

Lastly using caches for profit is a surefire way of getting you barred from geocaching.com.

Well there we go. If all you new cachers stick to these guidelines you will not go far wrong.

Thanks

Chris

LASSITUDE- (noun) Tiredness and apathy: a state of weariness accompanied by listlessness or apathy[15th century. Via French from Latin lassitudo , from lassus 'weary'.]

January 17, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Lassitude:
Adult material- Already covered. Lets try to keep the young cachers away from this stuff until it is appropriate for them to see it. The reason this stuff is top shelf is to prevent the vertically challenged youngsters from seeing it. Most newsagents put this sort of stuff in plastic bags that conceal the dubious covers.

There was a discussion of 'top shelf' and ordinary magazines on the radio a little while ago.

The spokesperson for WH Smiths (I think it was that company) said that actually, the publishers stipulate what is to be 'top shelf' and it's more to do with attracting the type of customer that will buy them than keeping it 'out of reach of minors'.

Also, the plastic bags are there to stop these same customers just looking through the magazine without buying it.

I notice Computer magazines now do the same! I wonder what that says about their target market?

--... ...--

Morseman

January 17, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Slytherin:
The offending item was not porn. It was nothing that you wouldn't see on the front cover of a top shelf mag, or on page 3 of the Sun.

I've not seen prostitutes advertising themselves on page 3 of the Sun! Maybe I've been looking in the wrong places...

Regardless of whether images of naked women are appropriate cache contents, the fact remains that these particular advertisements are illegal. IANAL but since it is illegal to "provide facilities for prostitution", having a stated policy allowing prostitutes to advertise in caches would seem unwise.

Of course, when I placed a CDROM of WindowsXP in a cache last weekend, that was just as naughty!

Acceptable cache contents?

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