Thanks

[+LovelyAlicia]

Sorry I posted.

Edited July 11 by LovelyAlicia
Post met with hostility

[+Smitherington]

To me there is a difference between the very public places of a parking lot for multiple businesses and a small parking lot for one or two businesses. In the second case I would ask permission. Signs in the road right-of-way also seem to be fair game.  If the sign is by a house I would tell the homeowner what was going on.

[+Rustynails]

Your title implies something more. What are you really trying to say?

[+thebruce0]

1 hour ago, Smitherington said:

Signs in the road right-of-way also seem to be fair game.

 

That would very much depend on the nature of the sign and the camouflage strategy...

[Keystone]

1 hour ago, Smitherington said:

Signs in the road right-of-way also seem to be fair game.  If the sign is by a house I would tell the homeowner what was going on.

I have a "form letter" Reviewer Note template that I probably use once each week for this purpose.  Stop sign at a rural road intersection with corn fields on all four corners?  OK for me to assume permission.  Stop sign in view of someone's house?  I ask if the homeowner has been informed.  It doesn't do any good to argue about "right-of-way."  In 40 years of legal practice and real estate financing, I have never once seen an easement or right-of-way agreement that allows for geocache placements.

[Keystone]

And so, the next question you might ask after reading my post about "assuming permission" is:  when is it OK for a Reviewer to assume permission?  We can pull the permission card whenever our spidey senses are tingling.  But, for a more detailed explanation, my seminal essay on permission is hereby incorporated into this post by reference as if fully set forth herein.

[+JL_HSTRE]

Something to watch out for in shopping plazas of any size: No Trespassing and No Loitering signs.

 

It seems nonsensical to me to post a No Trespassing sign that is open to the public (the sign normally effectively means "do not enter"), but there are apparently technical legal reasons. Regardless, if the plaza owners have problems with people that necessitate Trespassing/Loitering signage IMO that means they don't want geocaching either.

 

Remember not all roads are public roads, even if the public can drive on them. The county road that goes by the shopping mall is a public ROW, but the road leading into the mall is probably part of the mall's property. 

 

Highway rest areas are open to the public, usually 24/7, but even if the state doesn't ban geocaches there outright (ex: Virginia) security at some rest areas have prohibited caches there.

 

Personally, I think geocaching would be better off banning physical parking lot caches outright. Removes a permission gray area, improves safety, helps steering clear of commercial guidelines, and improves cache quality (99% of parking lot hides are just for the numbers with nothing interesting to see there).

[+Goldenwattle]

2 hours ago, JL_HSTRE said:

Highway rest areas are open to the public, usually 24/7, but even if the state doesn't ban geocaches there outright (ex: Virginia) security at some rest areas have prohibited caches there.

 

Personally, I think geocaching would be better off banning physical parking lot caches outright. Removes a permission gray area, improves safety, helps steering clear of commercial guidelines, and improves cache quality (99% of parking lot hides are just for the numbers with nothing interesting to see there).

These worries you have don't exist everywhere. There are many road side rest area caches in Australia, and I doubt anyone asked for permission to put it there. I doubt few would care.

There are caches in parking areas here too, and I doubt anyone thought it necessary to ask permission, and really, I doubt few would care. You seem to have more restrictions than we do, but please don't suggest banning something, when it's not a world wide problem. If it's a problem in the USA, just ban it there, and don't for countries where it is not a problem.

There are some restrictions for National Parks here I believe, but that might vary too depending where in the country. Maybe someone from the ACT could answer. Did you have to ask to place a cache in Nature Parks in the ACT? There are quite a few caches in Nature Parks here. 

As long as the cache is not on private land without permission, most places appear to be okay. Oh, and icons for puzzles and multis not on private land, even if the cache is not on private land. Put the icon on a road. This last one was from personal experience. I had to move an icon from a pond in a paddock to the nearby road. A land owner complained. The cache was not on their land.

[+JL_HSTRE]

3 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

These worries you have don't exist everywhere. There are many road side rest area caches in Australia, and I doubt anyone asked for permission to put it there. I doubt few would care.

 

As I have pointed out in the past to you and Jeff, Australia is off in its own world. Australia has fewer caches than California. 

 

I think rest areas are usually good places for geocaches. I merely pointed out that even though they are public doesn't always mean they're allowed.

[+LovelyAlicia]

21 hours ago, Rustynails said:

Your title implies something more. What are you really trying to say?

I'm sorry if my title caused you (or others) some confusion. I am merely seeking clarification. Thanks to all who responded.

[+JL_HSTRE]

2 hours ago, LovelyAlicia said:

I'm sorry if my title caused you (or others) some confusion.

 

Confusion isn't the issue. The first post, especially with that title, comes across as someone trying to win an argument with their Reviewer. 

[+CheekyBrit]

This discussion is really good. Until this thread, it did seem like quite the gray area that comes up with newbies trying to hide and not knowing how to go about getting permission. I have contact and first name basis with my area's BLM rec manager, Forest service rec manager, city urban planner, the facility managers for different shopping areas, gyms, and the university. I've also knocked on about 4% of the doors in my city for geocache permission / awareness. I've erred on the side of more permission but it was probably overkill in most cases.

[+thebruce0]

On 7/8/2024 at 9:09 PM, Keystone said:

I have a "form letter" Reviewer Note template that I probably use once each week for this purpose.  Stop sign at a rural road intersection with corn fields on all four corners?  OK for me to assume permission.  Stop sign in view of someone's house?  I ask if the homeowner has been informed.  It doesn't do any good to argue about "right-of-way."  In 40 years of legal practice and real estate financing, I have never once seen an easement or right-of-way agreement that allows for geocache placements.

 

I think the stop sign issue (as an example) really really depends on local transit authority. Rumour here in Ontario spread of a CO who got in a pile of doodoo because he put a fake reflective cover on a rural stop sign. The TC did not like that. Considering there is a safety concern for standards in reflective surfaces, if someone puts a non-approved reflective cover over theirs, they have no control or knowledge of whether the sign will still be effective; someone will have to take blame if there's an incident. I believe here it is illegal in some manner to intentionally cover in any way a traffic safety sign (nature excepted). But IANAL. In any case, I think everyone would agree that it's at least not safe in the slightest to cover a sign intended for bystander (especially traffic) safety.

 

Now, if the reference is to attaching something to the sign pole or at its base, that's very different  

[+MNTA]

I've seen a couple of caches archived at the request of local land owners despite being on public land. The first the owner thought the land was theirs despite being a county park/trail I filed the NA after getting yelled at..  Reviewer immediately archived despite protests from the CO, community relations are more important. The second the farmer complained about cars parked illegally & dangerously on the busy road to observe a sign on his property to use for a multi cache. 

 

In these cases permission was not required but the wishes of the local landowners were honored. 

[+niraD]

Quote

Well, at least the rest of the thread is still here.

 

For the record, the post wasn't met with hostility. It was met with discussion, with various participants taking different views. Not the same thing at all.

[+cerberus1]

On 7/8/2024 at 7:08 PM, Smitherington said:

To me there is a difference between the very public places of a parking lot for multiple businesses and a small parking lot for one or two businesses. In the second case I would ask permission. Signs in the road right-of-way also seem to be fair game.  If the sign is by a house I would tell the homeowner what was going on.

We asked for permission on every cache we ever placed.  All property belongs to someone.  You claim permission on every cache placed...  

But curious what a "road" right of way is.  We own the property up to the road and pay taxes on it. Woods on both sides of the driveway.

We have a road and a border right of way (there's a strip to a side road behind us/another's property so we're never landlocked in the future.)

The "right of way" is us allowing utilities/road crews to be there on our property...