Is requiring a cacher to download a 3rd party app / game allowed

[+Deepdiggingmole]

As a puzzle base to work out the co-ords - are you allowed to require cachers to download a third party app/game and in order to obtain the answers to questions specified on the cache page you have to play that game. 

 

For example - To find the Geocache you need to play Theme Park Tycoon 2 on Roblox - answer the following questions which you will find while playing and the answers will give you numbers ......

 

 

[Keystone]

Please read and follow the Help Center article called "Software, apps, technology and downloads."

[+Deepdiggingmole]

10 minutes ago, Keystone said:

Please read and follow the Help Center article called "Software, apps, technology and downloads."

I had read that - however I have seen one such cache published so wondered if it had changed 

 

Thanks

 

[+arisoft]

1 hour ago, Deepdiggingmole said:

To find the Geocache you need to play Theme Park Tycoon 2 on Roblox - answer the following questions which you will find while playing and the answers will give you numbers ......

 

Sometimes you can find this kind of answers from web. For example, you may find a video where this game is played. I know one similar mystery where the information requires massive playing or just using Google.

[+Deepdiggingmole]

24 minutes ago, arisoft said:

Sometimes you can find this kind of answers from web. For example, you may find a video where this game is played. I know one similar mystery where the information requires massive playing or just using Google.

I have seen a few like that too - though the one I have seen specifically says - 'play the game'  - I did google it to see if i could get the answers and in this instance though I managed to get some, it does seem you will have to play 

[+Sottiwotti]

I've seen a Adventure Lab require people to download a 3rd party app to be able to do the AL. Is the rule different for ALs, or did this person break the rules?

[+Max and 99]

32 minutes ago, Sottiwotti said:

I've seen a Adventure Lab require people to download a 3rd party app to be able to do the AL. Is the rule different for ALs, or did this person break the rules?

That's surprising! I would probably report that one. 

[+Sottiwotti]

18 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

That's surprising! I would probably report that one. 

People really like it though, it has a score of 4.8.

[+Deepdiggingmole]

2 hours ago, Sottiwotti said:

I've seen a Adventure Lab require people to download a 3rd party app to be able to do the AL. Is the rule different for ALs, or did this person break the rules?

Interestingly there is no specific rule/guideline in the AL builder guidelines regarding a 3rd party app - but since you need to run the AL App to play the AL (access locations and answer questions) I can not see how downloading another app "to be able to do the AL"  is within the guidelines 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Deepdiggingmole

[+cerberus1]

1 hour ago, Sottiwotti said:

People really like it though, it has a score of 4.8.

 

We found a cache in another state that was a dug, square pit with a plywood cover (ammo can underneath).

Long before Favorite Points but got rave reviews.  Go figure...

[+JL_HSTRE]

29 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

 

We found a cache in another state that was a dug, square pit with a plywood cover (ammo can underneath).

Long before Favorite Points but got rave reviews.  Go figure...

 

Some really old buried caches were grandfathered in because they predated the prohibition, but probably shouldn't have.

 

Lots of geocachers are either unfamiliar with the Guidelines or see them as an inconvenience to be circumvented. A hide that skirts the rules (or worse) is creative and novel, and gets accolades from them. "Is this right?" is not a question that enters their mind.

[+JL_HSTRE]

The only apps that should be required are Groundspeak published or sanctioned apps like Wherigo or Adventure Labs, or something generic that requires no specific app and/or can be done by other means (ex: internet searches, calculators, or waypoint projections).

 

I don't mind going to a specific free website for a jigsaw puzzle or to interact with AI or use a special geochecker or something like that. However, I think nothing requiring a fee or login/account or download should be allowed, whether belonging to the CO or a third party. (Excepting things covered by my preceding paragraph.)

 

[+NanCycle]

1 hour ago, JL_HSTRE said:

 

Some really old buried caches were grandfathered in because they predated the prohibition, but probably shouldn't have.

 

Lots of geocachers are either unfamiliar with the Guidelines or see them as an inconvenience to be circumvented. A hide that skirts the rules (or worse) is creative and novel, and gets accolades from them. "Is this right?" is not a question that enters their mind.

 

Yes , caches that are "unique" are highly favorited and also copied.  I have a Bookmark List of "Buried caches" and when I read through the logs, I see a lot of "I'm going to hide one like that."

[+arisoft]

52 minutes ago, NanCycle said:

 

Yes , caches that are "unique" are highly favorited and also copied.  I have a Bookmark List of "Buried caches" and when I read through the logs, I see a lot of "I'm going to hide one like that."

 

I have a traditional D4 cache that occasionally gets comments that it is buried. A regular size cache is placed into a large hole in the bedrock and covered with thick fabric and on the top there is a small stone. Basically, it is like any cache with hint "under a stone", but the fabric makes it very difficult to notice, as you may see from the image above. The cache under the fabric is significantly larger than the pebble in the middle of the image. If you zoom in, you may see the edge of the fabric. To find the cache you must lift the pebble, which is fixed to the fabric camouflage and log the cache.

 

I am considering it spoiling, when someone falsely reveals that it is buried, even it is not buried, because it gives an extra hint where it is placed. I don't understand why someone could think that the cache is buried. Could you understand this?

Edited November 30, 2023 by arisoft

[+Team Canary]

We have two, I know of, published recently that you have to email an automatic reply email address to get information, I thought that was banned too.

[+Crazedllama]

There are still a few AR caches out there that were allowed the use of select AR apps to find final coordinates. I put one out years ago, but the app is apparently only available on iphone now. An AR cache I finished a few weeks ago used an app that only worked on my 10 year old android phone.

 

https://coord.info/BM58MPC

[+arisoft]

1 hour ago, Team Canary said:

We have two, I know of, published recently that you have to email an automatic reply email address to get information, I thought that was banned too.

 

I have also thought that it is not allowed but when I tried to find a suitable rule I couldn't find any.

 

"Cannot require geocachers to email the cache owner for information needed to find the cache."

 

This is the nearest, but you don't email to the owner so it may not apply.

 

One published cache I know required that the owner answers manually to email and the cache was immediatelly disabled by the reviewer when this was noticed.

 

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by arisoft

[+Goldenwattle]

That's a no-no for me; downloading an unknown program to my computer. So any cache that requires that is a no-no too. Unless I can get the final coordinates from a braver/foolhardy previous finder.

[+Goldenwattle]

4 hours ago, arisoft said:

 

I have a traditional D4 cache that occasionally gets comments that it is buried. A regular size cache is placed into a large hole in the bedrock and covered with thick fabric and on the top there is a small stone. Basically, it is like any cache with hint "under a stone", but the fabric makes it very difficult to notice, as you may see from the image above. The cache under the fabric is significantly larger than the pebble in the middle of the image. If you zoom in, you may see the edge of the fabric. To find the cache you must lift the pebble, which is fixed to the fabric camouflage and log the cache.

 

I am considering it spoiling, when someone falsely reveals that it is buried, even it is not buried, because it gives an extra hint where it is placed. I don't understand why someone could think that the cache is buried. Could you understand this?

The rules used to say caches can't be buried, or partly buried. Has this changed? Some old original caches are buried, but that likely happened before that rule. Some years ago I also came upon a buried cache by a hwy here in Australia. You had to stomp about until you heard a bell below. I never did hear that bell. The traffic on the hwy was too heavy. Not a sensible place beside a noisy road to put such a hide. I think it got archived.

[+niraD]

1 hour ago, Goldenwattle said:

The rules used to say caches can't be buried, or partly buried. Has this changed? Some old original caches are buried, but that likely happened before that rule. Some years ago I also came upon a buried cache by a hwy here in Australia. You had to stomp about until you heard a bell below. I never did hear that bell. The traffic on the hwy was too heavy. Not a sensible place beside a noisy road to put such a hide. I think it got archived.

The guidelines about buried caches now include the following explicit exception:

 

"The only exception is if a property owner gives explicit permission to create a hole to place the cache, which you must provide to the reviewer and state on the cache page. A cache cannot require the finder to dig to reach the cache. See the Regional Geocaching Policies Wiki for details in your region."

[+Goldenwattle]

58 minutes ago, niraD said:

The guidelines about buried caches now include the following explicit exception:

 

"The only exception is if a property owner gives explicit permission to create a hole to place the cache, which you must provide to the reviewer and state on the cache page. A cache cannot require the finder to dig to reach the cache. See the Regional Geocaching Policies Wiki for details in your region."

Thanks, I Bookmarked the Australian regional one. 

The one I mentioned with stomping about listening for the bell, was on public land and doubtful there was permission for it. Although to be realistic, where it was wasn't a problem (except for traffic making the spot too noisy), as from memory, there were no buildings anywhere remotely close. The ground was also bare sand, so there was limited damage that could be done. Archived now though. Likely still a buried cache.

[+JL_HSTRE]

2 hours ago, niraD said:

The guidelines about buried caches now include the following explicit exception:

 

"The only exception is if a property owner gives explicit permission to create a hole to place the cache, which you must provide to the reviewer and state on the cache page.

 

There's also a similar exemption for drilling holes into trees.

 

I think both exemptions are serious mistakes by Groundspeak. Besides any problems with dishonesty, it's going to result in people cluelessly digging/drilling holes in and hiding a cache somewhere without explicit permission, only to get denied at publication (or worse: slip through the review process). Then there's an argument with the Reviewer and meanwhile the damage has been done. 

[+TeamRabbitRun]

On 11/30/2023 at 10:35 AM, Sottiwotti said:

People really like it though, it has a score of 4.8.

 

Doesn't matter. 

It degrades the game by encouraging people to expand the requirements and soon, that sort of thing becomes common, and the game is no longer geared to its original audience and purpose.

 

Report guideline violations. Protect the hobby. If you think people will get mad at you for spoiling their fun, too bad. This is a rigidly-controlled hobby with intentional protective guardrails (most of which seem to have a pill bottle stuffed in the end!)