DT rating for caches which are over 7m

[+Deepdiggingmole]

This is just a query regarding those caches which have been placed way up in an unclimbable location such as a tree or bridge - I am talking of those that are over 7 metres up and more - they are not hard to find as you already have the co-ords to get you there - they are just high up 

What DT should be used for these ?

The guidelines say the following where tools are mentioned -
5* D - "The most extreme mental challenge. Requires specialized knowledge, skills, tools, or significant effort to find, solve, or open."
Even though this mentions tools it suggests that there is a hard puzzle to solve to get you to the point where you have the correct co-ords (and so the tools are the online decoders or similar) or that the container itself is very sneaky and/or is not a straightforward task to reach the logbook even once the container / location is found
5*T - "Requires specialized equipment such as scuba gear, a boat, rock climbing gear, or similar" 
Now, though this doesn't mention extended poles I had always considered they fall in the category of specialised equipment and if you dont have one you can't reach the cache 
If I see a cache with a T rating of 1.5* - I am not expecting to have to reach very high or even use any sort of tool to reach the cache - so if the cache is 7m up and requires a special tool as in the extended pole - is the 1.5*T  correct or not

[+niraD]

59 minutes ago, Deepdiggingmole said:

This is just a query regarding those caches which have been placed way up in an unclimbable location such as a tree or bridge - I am talking of those that are over 7 metres up and more - they are not hard to find as you already have the co-ords to get you there - they are just high up 

What DT should be used for these ?

The guidelines say the following where tools are mentioned -
5* D - "The most extreme mental challenge. Requires specialized knowledge, skills, tools, or significant effort to find, solve, or open."
Even though this mentions tools it suggests that there is a hard puzzle to solve to get you to the point where you have the correct co-ords (and so the tools are the online decoders or similar) or that the container itself is very sneaky and/or is not a straightforward task to reach the logbook even once the container / location is found
5*T - "Requires specialized equipment such as scuba gear, a boat, rock climbing gear, or similar" 
Now, though this doesn't mention extended poles I had always considered they fall in the category of specialised equipment and if you dont have one you can't reach the cache 
If I see a cache with a T rating of 1.5* - I am not expecting to have to reach very high or even use any sort of tool to reach the cache - so if the cache is 7m up and requires a special tool as in the extended pole - is the 1.5*T  correct or not

I'm used to seeing a high terrain rating for elevated caches where seekers are expected to climb, and a high difficulty rating for elevated caches where seekers are supposed to stand on the ground/pavement and use some other method to retrieve and replace the cache.

 

To me, an elevated cache rated D1.5/T5 means it's easy to spot, retrieve, and replace, but I'm going to need technical climbing gear to get up to where the cache is located. But an elevated cache rated D5/T1.5 means that I'm going to need some sort of pole, grabber, or other tool to retrieve and replace the cache, but the location is otherwise easy to reach (perhaps even almost wheelchair accessible except for an obstacle or two).

[+Hügh]

2 hours ago, Deepdiggingmole said:

specialised equipment

 

To me, "specialized equipment" is equipment that requires training from a certified professional in order to operate safely. The examples they list are: climbing gear, scuba gear, boat; all of those require a license and/or training, or else you risk serious injury.

 

That is to say, there is a difference between "specialized tools" (UV light, CHIRP, reach-pole) and "specialized equipment".

 

I would suggest high-difficulty, and terrain set to whatever is appropriate for reaching GZ.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Hügh

[+arisoft]

9 hours ago, Deepdiggingmole said:

so if the cache is 7m up and requires a special tool as in the extended pole - is the 1.5*T  correct or not

 

There are different ways depending on what country you are in. In Finland, a tool that is used to reach a geocache, is regularly considered a terrain lowering tool. A pole or ladders are examples of this kind of tool. Many geocachers have both of them always available. They use the tool to avoid climbing and the terrain is set from T3 to T5 depending on how high or difficult it is to reach without a pole or ladders. My latest high terrain cache is T3.5 and it is about 3.5 meters from the ground. The description suggests using a pole, but is it still possible to find without any tools.

 

Some months ago I talked with a reviewer about a D5/T5 traditional cache idea that required some tools to find the cache. The required tools were 5m long ladders and a small hex wrench. The reviewer did not accept requiring a hex wrench but accepted ladders. It should be a mystery cache if it needs a special tool, that was the reasoning behind this decision. I put a hex wrench in a combination locked box next to the cache to overcome this requirement. (Combination was not disclosed, of course, because it is D5) In this context, long ladders were not a special tool but a hex wrench was. In conclusion, if your cache requires a pole as a D5 special tool, the cache must be a mystery cache.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by arisoft

[+Mausebiber]

Quote

In conclusion, if your cache requires a pole as a special tool (D5) the cache must be a mystery cache.

 

Not in Germany.

 

Here, all cache which requires a pole as a special tool are traditional, unless there is a riddle to solve.

 

Just two examples: 

https://www.geocaching.com/play/results/?cn=Kellergrund&ho=1&asc=true&sort=geocacheName

https://www.geocaching.com/play/results/?cn=Naturfreundehaus&ho=1&asc=true&sort=geocacheName

 

and we have hundreds of those.

https://www.geocaching.com/play/results/?ct=2%2C9%2C3773&st=Germany&oid=79&ot=country&cn=angel&ho=1&asc=true&sort=geocacheName

 

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Mausebiber

[+barefootguru]

7 hours ago, Hügh said:

I would suggest high-difficulty, and terrain set to whatever is appropriate for reaching GZ.

 

The help centre specifically says terrain is 'Physical effort needed to arrive at coordinates and sign the logbook.'  Note the last part.

 

https://www.geocaching.com/help/index.php?pg=kb.chapter&id=97&pgid=82

[+barefootjeff]

It seems different rules in different countries. For Australia, the Regional Wiki says this:

 

SPECIAL EQUIPMENT

These are things requiring training to use, safety equipment such as helmets or life jackets, and are not part of the caching tool kit you can carry easily, or the tool kit the average geocacher would carry most of the time. Boats, large ladders, and rope climbing or abseiling equipment are examples. For example, a technical tree climb requiring ropes etc. would be a T5. But a free climb without the need for special equipment would be 4.5 or lower (often much lower). Once you’re up there if it’s hard to open or find the cache then that would be reflected in the D rating. A pole cache (tree fishing) on the other hand, would be generally be low Terrain in most cases if it’s easy to get to the position you need to be at, but higher Difficulty to reflect a tricky manipulation.

[+Hügh]

39 minutes ago, barefootguru said:

Note the last part.

 

I am not sure I understand what you are trying to tell me here.

 

I used "ground zero" in my previous post to refer to "the cache site", the place you need to be to find & sign the cache. If the tree is intended to be climbed, then "ground zero" would be up tree for a higher terrain rating. If the cache is intended to be brought down by use of a tool, "ground zero" is at the base of the tree. So, one should set the terrain rating to align with the intended "ground zero".

Edited October 24, 2023 by Hügh

[+cerberus1]

On 10/24/2023 at 8:36 AM, Deepdiggingmole said:

This is just a query regarding those caches which have been placed way up in an unclimbable location such as a tree or bridge - I am talking of those that are over 7 metres up and more - they are not hard to find as you already have the co-ords to get you there - they are just high up 

What DT should be used for these ?

"Unclimbable" location for me is apparently a bit different than you...  

If you can see it, it's a D1 or 1.5

22-23 feet is kinda low-end for a rope cache, but I'd rate it a T5, as "specialized equipment" would be used (or someone lugging a ladder).

One of our few remaining hides is a huge camo rural mailbox 30' up, positioned from a branch, and it's D1.5 and T5.

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by cerberus1
Because someone will pick nits...

[+barefootjeff]

1 hour ago, cerberus1 said:

If you can see it, it's a D1 or 1.5

 

On all the tree-fishing caches I've done, I've been able to see it from the ground easily enough, but hooking it with the pole, getting it down and, after signing the log, putting it back up has often been pretty tricky and time-consuming. According to our regional wiki at least, that tricky manipulation needed should be factored into the D rating.

[+niraD]

8 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

 

On all the tree-fishing caches I've done, I've been able to see it from the ground easily enough, but hooking it with the pole, getting it down and, after signing the log, putting it back up has often been pretty tricky and time-consuming. According to our regional wiki at least, that tricky manipulation needed should be factored into the D rating.

Exactly. And according to the Help Center article Ratings for difficulty and terrain (D/T), the difficulty rating is more than just being able to see the cache. Several of the lower difficulty ratings mention the challenge of solving a puzzle, but the description of D5 specifically includes "specialized knowledge, skills, tools, or significant effort to find, solve, or open."

[+baer2006]

15 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

On all the tree-fishing caches I've done, I've been able to see it from the ground easily enough, but hooking it with the pole, getting it down and, after signing the log, putting it back up has often been pretty tricky and time-consuming. According to our regional wiki at least, that tricky manipulation needed should be factored into the D rating.

Tree-fishing caches are all the rage here in Germany, and most of them also follow this rule, but not all. Personally, I think that's good, because it can be described by way of a relatively generic "guideline" (in quotes, because it's not an official GS Cache Hiding Guideline):

• Every obstacle regarding getting the final coordinates (e.g. difficult puzzle), finding the container (e.g. good camouflage), retrieving the container (e.g. fishing pole needed) and retrieving the log (e.g. gadget cache, or lock-picking challenge) is reflected in the D rating.
• Every obstacle, which makes it harder to move yourself physically to the spot, where you can start any of the above (e.g. start tree-fishing), goes into the T rating.

With such a guideline in mind, it's pretty clear for any non-so-easy cache, if the D and/or T rating should be high. That includes any necessary tool usage: If it's needed to get you to the cache (e.g. ladder, rope, boat), T goes up; if needed to find the cache, get the cache to you or open the cache (e.g. fishing pole, lock-picking set), D goes up.

[+Deepdiggingmole]

18 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

"Unclimbable" location for me is apparently a bit different than you...

I am not sure why you thought this - I didn't specify in the OP what I thought it should be, I was querying whether a cache over 7m up which required an extended pole would be considered T1.5 or not (I didnt say this is what I considered it to be)  - you followed this up with 'if it needs specialsed equipment then T5' which is what I have always thought - however it does seem by all the responses that this should be reflected in the D rating 

[+arisoft]

3 hours ago, Deepdiggingmole said:

however it does seem by all the responses that this should be reflected in the D rating 

 

Not by all responses. It depends on how geocachers are used to rate caches in their territory. Ambiguity started by defining special tools both D5 and T5.

[+barefootjeff]

1 hour ago, arisoft said:

Ambiguity started by defining special tools both D5 and T5.

 

Not quite. D5 is specialised tools (things you use to do something with) while T5 is specialised equipment (stuff needed to get yourself to the cache). But yeah, it could perhaps be worded a bit better to enhance the distinction.

[+Goldenwattle]

On 10/25/2023 at 1:36 AM, Deepdiggingmole said:

If I see a cache with a T rating of 1.5* - I am not expecting to have to reach very high or even use any sort of tool to reach the cache - so if the cache is 7m up and requires a special tool as in the extended pole - is the 1.5*T  correct or not

Absolutely agree. I have arrived at a 1.5T and been disappointed, and annoyed, to see it way up high in a tree. NOT 1.5T.

[+Goldenwattle]

On 10/25/2023 at 12:10 PM, barefootjeff said:

not part of the caching tool kit you can carry easily, or the tool kit the average geocacher would carry most of the time.

That describes a fishing pole, especially when you arrive by plane at a destination. Not something most would pack.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Goldenwattle

[+arisoft]

3 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

Absolutely agree. I have arrived at a 1.5T and been disappointed, and annoyed, to see it way up high in a tree. NOT 1.5T.

 

This is exactly how I see this.

 

Couple of weeks ago I arrived to GZ and didn't immediatelly find the cache. I checked the description and saw T4.5. I have forgotten to take the fishing rod with me. Oops...

And here comes the interesting point of view to this matter. Almost every time I realize that I have forgotten to carry the fishing rod to the GZ, I can find some kind of stick from the nearby ground or sometimes I can climb to the tree instead of fishing. No tool or equipment required at all. The only obstacle between me and the cache is the elevated terrain.

[+Deepdiggingmole]

It seems opinion is split here - some go with - the special tool (extendable pole) falls under the T5 especially as that tool is not something you can carry in your back-pack (so not akin to the tools like magnets, UV lights, torches, pokey things etc etc) 
Others go with D5 - where "requires specialised tools where significant effort to open." (amended)
I can see both sides - however it does mean you are getting cache owners using D5 and others T5 for essentially exactly the same type of hide and the same location (high up) both needing the same tool and I agree with @barefootjeff " it could perhaps be worded a bit better to enhance the distinction." 

[hsiale]

On 10/24/2023 at 4:41 PM, Hügh said:

 

To me, "specialized equipment" is equipment that requires training from a certified professional in order to operate safely. The examples they list are: climbing gear, scuba gear, boat; all of those require a license and/or training, or else you risk serious injury.

Does one need formal training and a license to operate a regular, human-powered small boat in Canada?

[+Hügh]

1 hour ago, hsiale said:

Does one need formal training and a license to operate a regular, human-powered small boat in Canada?

 

No, neither for climbing.

 

But it's probably not a bad idea to take a course with Paddle Canada and earn a certification of some kind. Having an emergency out on the water and not knowing what to do is not a place you want to be.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Hügh

[+Oxford Stone]

Lots of fishing rod caches near here (Oxfordshire, UK) going out with high T ratings. I wish they wouldn't... actually I wish they wouldn't put out fishing rod caches at all, they're the spawn of the devil. 

[+baer2006]

8 minutes ago, Oxford Stone said:

actually I wish they wouldn't put out fishing rod caches at all, they're the spawn of the devil. 

Then you can be happy that you don't live in Germany.

[+thebruce0]

On 10/27/2023 at 2:55 AM, arisoft said:

Almost every time I realize that I have forgotten to carry the fishing rod to the GZ, I can find some kind of stick from the nearby ground or sometimes I can climb to the tree instead of fishing. No tool or equipment required at all. The only obstacle between me and the cache is the elevated terrain.

That's quite often the case here. If a CO here wants it to be a pole cache, it's either away from any forest or trees where one could find a 'natural tool', it's it's so ridiculously high that a long branch wouldn't be feasible and only a special extended pole would work. But most prolific cachers around here have access to some sort of massive pole just in case... heck there have been groups who have strung multiple extension poles together, used more for extra support, and ladders in combination for even more height, for a the very few and rare top-of-lamp-post-style caches. Those are generally pretty risky (muggles, parking lot enforcement, etc) and either don't typically last too long or are only found once in a blue moon by large groups

But they definitely test people's resourcefulness..es...

[+thebruce0]

On 11/6/2023 at 7:24 AM, hsiale said:

Does one need formal training and a license to operate a regular, human-powered small boat in Canada?

To own a kayak is available to all. To paddle a kayak, likewise. But there are regulations as to what is required in your boat. Many ignore that if they feel they're advanced enough. But if there's a problem or you're caught then there can be hefty fines. In most cases in Ontario at least 98% of paddle caches are on rivers and ponds and small lakes where kayaks and canoes are more than welcome. Many prolific cachers have their own personal paddle boats. There are some on the great lakes where people often commission a motor boat from a nearby owner; and they often are aware of geocachers because of word of mouth It can become a little side hustle for friendly boat owners along the shorelines... geocachers will pay for a nice boat ride out to a remote cache on the rough lake. Fun experience!