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I was wondering, the thing i like about Waymarking is the categories and statistics and that gave me a nice idea. Wouldn't it be neat if the system keeps track of the waymarks and when one of your waymarks is approved, you also get the message: congratulations, you posted the first waymark of this category in the continent/country/state! It would add another dimension to the game. 

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20 hours ago, Becktracker said:

I was wondering, the thing i like about Waymarking is the categories and statistics and that gave me a nice idea. Wouldn't it be neat if the system keeps track of the waymarks and when one of your waymarks is approved, you also get the message: congratulations, you posted the first waymark of this category in the continent/country/state! It would add another dimension to the game. 

 

The good thing is, that you have posted in "only" 381 categories so far. In the thread, that fi67 mentioned, I explained how I did start this statics:

and I still keep track of the firsts in category-country-combinations (on the way to #300). As I do that manually, it would be too much work to also check for category-continent-combinations (wouldn't even know how to do that in a reasonable time) or category-state/province-combinations. I have f.e. the first "Chronogram" in the Austrian provinces Wien, Burgenland, Niederösterreich, Oberösterreich, Steiermark and Kärnten. But that was quite easy to check, because I have no Chronograms outside Austria as of yet and there are not that many of them in Austria (24 chronograms and 20 of them are mine).

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:D 253, after appoving your first "Elevated Buildings" waymark. :D

 

A little help from me: You got the first "Signs of Zodiac", "Hydroelectric Power Stations" and "Mines" waymark in Sweden. Maybe more in Sweden and of course I haven't checked the many categories you have in Germany.

Edited by PISA-caching
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16 hours ago, PISA-caching said:

:D 253, after appoving your first "Elevated Buildings" waymark. :D

 

A little help from me: You got the first "Signs of Zodiac", "Hydroelectric Power Stations" and "Mines" waymark in Sweden. Maybe more in Sweden and of course I haven't checked the many categories you have in Germany.

My first elevated buildings were the pile dwellings in Unteruhldingen (WM14ET2) approved by you on June 25th ... :) - this one was the second ...

But 253 categories is right for now - after the posting the new entry in Denmark (WM14ME3) for "This old church" was added.

 

I checked for "first entry in country", I've posted in:

Denmark, U.K. and the Netherlands didn't have a first in country.
For the first entry in province of country I'll just post the number of categories for the according province, the list above is included in the count.

 

DE/Baden-Württemberg - 1

DE/Nordrhein-Westfalen - 20

DE/Rheinland-Pfalz - 1

 

NL/Limburg - 1

 

SE/Dalarna - 9

SE/Gävleborg - 2

SE/Jämtland - 3

SE/Kronoberg - 2

SE/Norrbotten - 6

SE/Östergötland - 1

SE/Skåne - 1

SE/Stockholm - 1

SE/Värmland - 1

SE/Västerbotten - 5

SE/Västernorrland - 3

SE/Västmanland - 1

 

Thats all for tonight ...

 

Edit: I used the country filter on my postings first, selected the category of that list and then changed it to "All waymarks" and hit the "Update" button to view the results of the category. For the ones, where I'm first in country i checked twice - just to be sure. But there seems to be a small, nonreproducable bug when filtering (as Max and 99 pointed out), because the result for the "Headstones of Centenarians" was false. Now I've to check again ... maybe i should write myself a tool for that.

Edited by FamilieFrohne
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On 7/28/2021 at 1:29 AM, FamilieFrohne said:

Now I've to check again ... maybe i should write myself a tool for that.

 

I'm nearly 3/4 through with processing all the category pages where I've posted in (not to speak of the ones where I didn't post (yet)) - but this proessing took me nearly eight hours. The process of fetching the pages of a category is only partially automated. The process inserts the information of first poster of category and country/region into a local database for faster access.

 

But a first try on the data can be seen on this page: https://wm.familie-frohne.net/list_user.php?name=FamilieFrohne

 

You may also try your own username (i.e. https://wm.familie-frohne.net/list_user.php?name=Becktracker).

What do you think about it? Right direction or completely off the path?

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9 hours ago, FamilieFrohne said:

What do you think about it? Right direction or completely off the path?

 

WOW

... is all I can say! This is awesome! Defintely the "right direction"! Thanks for all the work you put into this. If there is anything that I or somebody else can do, don't hesitate to ask for help. This is definitely worth the effort.

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Of course I checked my own username and saw that I have some waymarks in Norway (f.e. https://www.Waymarking.com/waymarks/wmWQV8) without a region, because I wasn't sure, if the town Sandvika still belongs to the Oslo region or not. This leads to the following questions:

  1. Question to all: Is there an official (Waymarking) map (or something) to see where the exact borders of the various regions are (other than Google Maps)?
  2. Question to FamilieFrohne: If I add a region to these relatively old waymarks (or change false regions), it will not automatically update the statistics, no?
Edited by PISA-caching
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2 hours ago, PISA-caching said:

Of course I checked my own username and saw that I have some waymarks in Norway (f.e. https://www.Waymarking.com/waymarks/wmWQV8) without a region, because I wasn't sure, if the town Sandvika still belongs to the Oslo region or not. This leads to the following questions:

  1. Question to all: Is there an official (Waymarking) map (or something) to see where the exact borders of the various regions are (other than Google Maps)?
  2. Question to FamilieFrohne: If I add a region to these relatively old waymarks (or change false regions), it will not automatically update the statistics, no?

 

Sandvika belongs to the surrounding Fylke Viken. To your questions:

  1. You can use the Openstreetmap map or their derivates, the borders of provinces and in most countries also the borders of the counties are mapped. If you are a paying member of project-gc.com you may also use their MapRegions-Tool (https://project-gc.com/Tools/MapRegions) - the site is mainly used for geocaching ... :). The polygons used for determining the borders are quite accurate.
  2. Currently there is no update of already stored entries. Reason for this, is that the process has to fetch all the pages of a category (one by one) first before it can make the selection for the database (there is no API access I know of - and currently it is not needed). Each single page takes about a second to three for retrieval so this takes some time ... I'm currently not really satisfied with the actual process (which was a day of work invested), so there is definititly potential for improvement :) .
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21 hours ago, FamilieFrohne said:

Currently there is no update of already stored entries. Reason for this, is that the process has to fetch all the pages of a category (one by one) first before it can make the selection for the database (there is no API access I know of - and currently it is not needed). Each single page takes about a second to three for retrieval so this takes some time ... I'm currently not really satisfied with the actual process (which was a day of work invested), so there is definititly potential for improvement :) .

 

This is really great! I had thought about doing something like this for a long time, but I always feared the massive effort. Thanks a lot!

 

When I check my user name in your database, I currently find 811 region entries, while of the 547 first-in-a-country I know of, only 390 have been identified yet; so it looks like I can hope for an end result in the four digit area. Cool!:cool:

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On 7/31/2021 at 11:42 AM, fi67 said:

When I check my user name in your database, I currently find 811 region entries, while of the 547 first-in-a-country I know of, only 390 have been identified yet; so it looks like I can hope for an end result in the four digit area. Cool!:cool:

 

New data retrieval for all current categories in the directory was started on Saturday around 2 p.m. There are 1793 region entries for your name stored in the database checked by simple count-SQL-statement (but I didn't check the first-in-a-country count).

 

 

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On 8/2/2021 at 12:47 PM, FamilieFrohne said:

 

New data retrieval for all current categories in the directory was started on Saturday around 2 p.m. There are 1793 region entries for your name stored in the database checked by simple count-SQL-statement (but I didn't check the first-in-a-country count).

Wow! This is more than I expected. Now, I have a new goal. Join the 2k first-in-a-region Club!

 

How many member does it have, currently? I can only think about five or six.

 

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40 minutes ago, fi67 said:

Wow! This is more than I expected. Now, I have a new goal. Join the 2k first-in-a-region Club!

 

How many member does it have, currently? I can only think about five or six.

 

None. You are leading the pack - see https://wm.familie-frohne.net/count_user.php

 

# Name #Posted first in region #Posted first in country
1 fi67 1793 550
2 BruceS 1789 119
3 Marine Biologist 1594 481
4 saopaulo1 1412 571
5 denben 1397 826
6 silverquill 1295 439
7 Metro2 1255 681
8 razalas 1226 242
9 ToRo61 1213 218
10 Dragontree 1169 241
11 Torgut 1157 677
12 Dorcadion Team 1037 380
13 T0SHEA 963 28
14 RakeInTheCache 905 326

...
Edited by FamilieFrohne
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12 hours ago, FamilieFrohne said:

There is a bug for determining the first-in-a-country entries. The fix for this requires a reimport of the data, so the shown values are not accurate until the import is done (this requires some time, so I'll post when it is done).

Reimport is done. Hopefully all data should be ok now ...

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6 hours ago, FamilieFrohne said:

 

# Name #Posted first in region #Posted first in country
       
13 T0SHEA 963 28
       

 

Ok Erik, now you've blown ME away, as well.

I really had no Idea I would have more than a paltry few firsts, given our location and the places in which we have posted.

As a result I paid no real attention to this thread, thinking it had no actual relevance to me. It's not that we haven't posted a lot, but that almost everywhere we have gone, others have preceded us.

Now I've managed to impress even myself with the number of firsts we've accumulated, even if we are waaaay down in 13th place.

I assume that in North America, regions = provinces or states.

Had No Idea!

 

Thanks for all the work, time and drudgery, Erik.

Keith

Edited by ScroogieII
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1 hour ago, ScroogieII said:

I assume that in North America, regions = provinces or states.

 

You are right with that assumption. I used the values in the list shown for "Limit search to the following region:" in the filters selection box on Waymarking.com.

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On 8/3/2021 at 10:51 PM, fi67 said:

 I can only think about five or six.

 

And I am 5th in the country list. The four ahead of me are exactly the ones, I had been thinking about. 

I have little chances to travel at the moment, but I will try my best to move on with the numbers in my tiny home zone. Fortunately, I have about ten regions in three countries within in an hour from home.

Edited by fi67
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That data is amazing :D, some time ago because of the other topic mentioned above it took me a couple of weeks to check one by one the firsts in a country :unsure:.

At the time I counted 222 and now I have 242 first in a country. First in a region I didn't count then (it would probably take me a year) but I'm in 8th nice :).

Thank you for you work.

 

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Today I asked the database table with the first in a region entries to give me a list of waymarks without a valid region - that is all the countries that have regions defined (like Austria, Belgium, Germany, Switzerland and 23 other countries, where the selection box for the region is enabled), but the selected entry is empty. Reason for this database query was that the statistics would not be really right with the empty selections.

 

Unfortunatly the list is really, really, really long (2686 entries so far, see https://wm.familie-frohne.net/list_region.php).

 

And that leads me to the question of what to do. There are some solutions I can think of:

  1. Correcting all the entries found and make a complete reimport for the first in region table? That would be the right thing, but would take ages to correct manually
    • and has to be repeated until no more entries with empty region are found ...
    • and also would drive the officers nuts who have to approve the changes ...
    • so this solution does not seem practical
  2. So I have to find a software solution to set the corresponding regions only in my import program and run a complete reimport?
    • Feels like the right direction, but could take a longer time to develop:
      • Checking the involved listings and remember the regions in a separate table could be error prone due to the manual task.
      • Best solution should use the coordinates of the listing to determine the region automagically - but this increases the time to handle the complete import , because the pages in question have to be parsed for the information after a separate web call.
  3. Rewrite my import program to run a reimport ignoring the empty regions for the 27 countries? Feels also wrong.
  4. Ignore the false entries and live with it? Feels completely wrong to me.

After thinking a little more about it, solution number two would be the best approach.

But: Are there any other practical solution ideas, I hadn't thought of?

 

What do you think?

 

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"Deutsche Gründlichkeit" :D

 

Some questions that came to my mind:

  • How many of the 2686 waymarks missing their region will still be in the list, after receiving their correct region? This is a theoretical question. I don't expect an answer. :-)
  • Is there a possibility to send all the Waymarkers in the list ONE note saying that they should check your list for their username and correct their own waymarks? No officers needed if one edits his/her own waymark.
  • If it is possible and they don't correct them (either because they are no longer active or lazy or there are too many wrong ones....), do they deserve to be on the list, because YOU somehow corrected their waymarks for them?
  • What about the waymarks missing their region/state in the USA? F.e. https://www.Waymarking.com/waymarks/WMC154 or https://www.Waymarking.com/waymarks/WMAV6M

Ok, but I don't just have questions. Here are two ideas I had:

  • If you have a waymark in the category xyz, but without a region and you have firsts in the same category for all the regions in that country, it might be the case that the region-less WM was created later than the youngest first of all the other regions. Maybe that is faster than trying to find the correct region with the coordinates.
  • If you could create the same list, but ordered by category, I would check the categories in which I am an officer or owner and correct the WMs. 
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6 hours ago, PISA-caching said:
  • How many of the 2686 waymarks missing their region will still be in the list, after receiving their correct region? This is a theoretical question. I don't expect an answer. :-)
  • Is there a possibility to send all the Waymarkers in the list ONE note saying that they should check your list for their username and correct their own waymarks? No officers needed if one edits his/her own waymark.
  • If it is possible and they don't correct them (either because they are no longer active or lazy or there are too many wrong ones....), do they deserve to be on the list, because YOU somehow corrected their waymarks for them?
  • What about the waymarks missing their region/state in the USA? F.e. https://www.Waymarking.com/waymarks/WMC154 or https://www.Waymarking.com/waymarks/WMAV6M

Ok, but I don't just have questions. Here are two ideas I had:

  • If you have a waymark in the category xyz, but without a region and you have firsts in the same category for all the regions in that country, it might be the case that the region-less WM was created later than the youngest first of all the other regions. Maybe that is faster than trying to find the correct region with the coordinates.
  • If you could create the same list, but ordered by category, I would check the categories in which I am an officer or owner and correct the WMs. 

Well ...

  • for the first point: I really don't know, but I would expect them to be less. Perhaps some Waymarks on the list (being currently the first in the region) would be removed because they are now second on the list. - But the statistics would be all right then ...
  • for the second: Sure, I could write a message to each one on the list, but I'm not sure if they would like it - possibly see it as spam from my side. And for some users (like saopaulo1, RakeInTheCache, Windsocker and Punga and Paua to name a few) this would indeed be much to do.
  • for the third: I wouldn't correct the waymarks here only in the statistics importer - simple reason: as I think the officers would go nuts on the changes ... I would also ... (not to mention the still existing east/west bug in the coordinate box)
  • for the fourth: The country is "United States" and with the coordinate in the listing I can determine the state it is in - so no real problem.

To your ideas:

  • Have to check that, but something tells me, that it wouldn't be that easy.
  • Here you go: https://wm.familie-frohne.net/list_region.php?sort=1 - Calling the page is a little bit slower - optimization would require me to rework too much (and also I'm currently a bit tired)
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16 hours ago, FamilieFrohne said:

Here you go: https://wm.familie-frohne.net/list_region.php?sort=1 - Calling the page is a little bit slower - optimization would require me to rework too much (and also I'm currently a bit tired)

 

Thanks a lot. Not much, but at least there are now 9 more WMs that have a correct region. BTW: About half of them are new firsts in their region. 9 WMs are not really representative though.

 

16 hours ago, FamilieFrohne said:

for the second: Sure, I could write a message to each one on the list, but I'm not sure if they would like it - possibly see it as spam from my side. And for some users (like saopaulo1, RakeInTheCache, Windsocker and Punga and Paua to name a few) this would indeed be much to do.

 

It's not spam, if you send one message saying that some of their WMs are missing their region. If I were not active in the forums, I would appreciate such an information.

 

16 hours ago, FamilieFrohne said:

for the fourth: The country is "United States" and with the coordinate in the listing I can determine the state it is in - so no real problem.

 

I was trying to say: Why are these not in the list you provided (https://wm.familie-frohne.net/list_region.php)? I have only one WM (with correct state) in the USA, but others would probably see their WMs missing the state and correct them.

 

Edited by PISA-caching
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Most regions were added long after the begin of Waymarking. When I started in 2009, only about ten countries had regions, and also they had almost all older waymarks without a region.

 

This has changed quite a bit, but most of these regions were added later by local waymarkers who were interested in correct data in their immediate surroundings. This has happened in several waves, and no officer ever had any issue with that and will not have in the future.

 

Emailing the owners will hardly have any effect, because they either have way too many waymarks to reasonably consider doing the changes, or they have not been active anymore for many years.

 

 

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Just what I thought myself - if I have to involve the other users, then many of them would ignore my plea. I can't fix it at the source, so I'll have to write a mapper for the country information gained by the coordinates . 

 

Um ... I just found out, that there is no entry for "Northern Ireland" when you select the "United Kingdom" as country filter.

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27 minutes ago, FamilieFrohne said:

Just what I thought myself - if I have to involve the other users, then many of them would ignore my plea. I can't fix it at the source, so I'll have to write a mapper for the country information gained by the coordinates . 

 

Um ... I just found out, that there is no entry for "Northern Ireland" when you select the "United Kingdom" as country filter.

https://forums.geocaching.com/GC/index.php?/topic/337630-northern-ireland-issue/

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Awesome, i had no idea that my thread would actually lead to something, but the program you've written leads to another dimension in Waymarking where i'm conserned. Thanks for your work familiefrohne! I've got an idea how to do continents but i have to try as i return from my vacation.

 

Btw, i'm the first to post pubs in belgium which seems quite an achievement because of the belgian beer tradition...

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Seeing wether you are the first to post in a specific category in a specific continent is pretty easy. I myself check the categories that I was first to post in a country to save me some time (with the list of Familiefrohne). Then go in Waymarking.com to that category and to the last page. Look at the minimap in the top right corner, it is pretty easy to see if a waymark is posted in the continent that you are interested in. If the page doesn't show any waymarks in your continent, move on to the previous page. If, someone has posted a waymark in the specific continent, you were beaten. 

 

BTW, whilst checking the categories I've been sending some messages to the other users that posted the first in a continent, to let them know. Some of you may have had a message from me already...

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3 hours ago, PISA-caching said:

300th first-category-in-a-country: Town Clocks in Bosnia and Herzegovina WooHooo! A nice milestone.

 

First of all: Congratulations for reaching a new milestone.

 

According to this I just did a "small" update of the waymarks added in the last two weeks (when I did the last run). Looking at the list of the published WM's (since the mentioned town clock) you should have three more than the 301 shown in the statistics. That is not good, since it indicates a gap between your counting and my counting.

 

But since I'm also currently working on the correction of the waymarks without valid region - which is only a partial automated task (reading the coordinates from the waymark listing and asking the google-geocode-API for the adm1 and adm2 info first), that is taking longer and needs some manual doing  due to the fact that I have to adjust the found regions to the ones used by Groundspeak (that is when the google info does not match the Groundspeak info (mostly for Great Britain, Spain, Portugal, South Africa, ...)) - I can't have a look at the possible first-categories-in-country missing. If you have the time to look and to make a comparison, it could help me to get the missing ones a bit faster back into the list.

 

Otherwise you'll have to wait until I'm done with processing all the 1122 waymark categories for the waymarks without region before I can do another fully automated import. As I said, this may take some time ...

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11 hours ago, FamilieFrohne said:

According to this I just did a "small" update of the waymarks added in the last two weeks (when I did the last run). Looking at the list of the published WM's (since the mentioned town clock) you should have three more than the 301 shown in the statistics. That is not good, since it indicates a gap between your counting and my counting.

 

All good. You sort the WMs by the date of approval and I sort them by the date of creation. 

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After a really long time correcting the import tables for missing regions over and over again (most work had to be done for United Kingdom and Ireland) the list of mismatched waymarks should be empty now. I found a few east/west (and south/north) mismatches because the coordinates showed the waymark being in the ocean - these I tried to correct via the edit function at the waymark. There still may be some left - I didn't look for the waymarks that have a filled region entry in their listing.

 

Anyone interested in the list of waymarks corrected in the process (that means the ones I found with an empty region in the listings) may have a look at the (JSON-formatted) output of https://wm.familie-frohne.net/get_regionwm.php

 

The counting (https://wm.familie-frohne.net/count_user.php) should be in the right dimensions now (that means hopefully no more than a deviation of 10)

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On 9/3/2021 at 10:48 PM, FamilieFrohne said:

Anyone interested in the list of waymarks corrected in the process (that means the ones I found with an empty region in the listings) may have a look at the (JSON-formatted) output of https://wm.familie-frohne.net/get_regionwm.php

 

I found 2 in Austria, that are in the "Austrian and Swiss National Heritage Sites" category, where I am an officer. I corrected those two.

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On 9/3/2021 at 10:48 PM, FamilieFrohne said:

Anyone interested in the list of waymarks corrected in the process (that means the ones I found with an empty region in the listings) may have a look at the (JSON-formatted) output of https://wm.familie-frohne.net/get_regionwm.php

 

If you could add the category to the list, officers with edit rights (most do have, but there are alternative setups, about five categories where I am an officer do not allow me these changes) could easily correct some of them without having to go through the standard procedure.

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4 hours ago, fi67 said:

If you could add the category to the list, officers with edit rights (most do have, but there are alternative setups, about five categories where I am an officer do not allow me these changes) could easily correct some of them without having to go through the standard procedure.

 

The thought of adding the category to the waymark came, when I was more than half through the list of categories. So I added the category to the remaining ones in the correction run. Unfortunatly these are currently waymarks of only 345 categories, so I have to check about 11100 waymarks without a category by another program to assign the category. Development of that program will be done in the next few days.

 

Another currently open topic is the removal from the correction list if the waymark was corrected i.e. by the category officers. This removal will be useful when making a full import of the category - so this may take some time until it is developed.

 

Meanwhile you may have a look at the page https://wm.familie-frohne.net/open_regionwm.php where the 345 already processed categories are listed.

 

I hope, you may find this page helpful.

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16 hours ago, FamilieFrohne said:

Development of that program will be done in the next few days.

Wrote the program during the lunch break - it took nearly 90 minutes to process the 11100 waymarks without category in the list ( https://wm.familie-frohne.net/get_regionwm.php ), but now the list with 773 categories in it (see mentioned list in previous posting: https://wm.familie-frohne.net/open_regionwm.php ) is complete.

Edited by FamilieFrohne
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As a side question: I see that there are almost 200 waymarks missing their region in the Mountain Summits category. I assume, that some of them are also the border between two regions. What is usually done then? No region, maybe? Or does a mountain summit always "belong" to one or the other region?

 

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57 minutes ago, PISA-caching said:

Or does a mountain summit always "belong" to one or the other region?

 

That is the case. Usually each (land) point on earth can be mapped to an administrative unit on a millimeter base using the polygones described by the (country, region and county) borders with

  • an administrative level 0 unit (a country),
  • an administrative level 1 unit (a subdivision of a country taken from ISO 3166-2 (think of it as a province, region, state, ...)),
  • an administrative level 2 unit (counties, large cities, ... - normally assigned by the country administration)
  • and probably more administrative units depenting on the country.

So a mountain summit may be part of two different administrative units.

 

During the correction of the waymarks without region I used the informations associated with the coordinate (which is roughly on a meter base using our standard GPS devices) to determine which administrative level 1 to use. Difficulties were given for United Kingdom and Ireland, since the international administrative units are not the same as the ones used by Groundspeak (e.g. Wales and Scotland were divided into North and South) - that was mainly a manual mapping on a case-to-case basis.

 

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2 hours ago, PISA-caching said:

As a side question: I see that there are almost 200 waymarks missing their region in the Mountain Summits category. I assume, that some of them are also the border between two regions. What is usually done then? No region, maybe? Or does a mountain summit always "belong" to one or the other region?

 

There are many waymarks on borders. In two categories: Border Crossings and Tripoints and Multipoints this is even a requirement. It can also happen to mountain summits.

 

I would just pick one of the available options, all are sort of correct and it is much better than to have entries without a region.

 

I personally use the more obvious option if there is one (e.g. an easy ascent from region A and cliff towards region B). If there is no difference in this respect, I take the one where I have less waymarks (in that category or in total).

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On 9/7/2021 at 10:19 PM, FamilieFrohne said:
On 9/7/2021 at 5:36 PM, fi67 said:

If you could add the category to the list, officers with edit rights (most do have, but there are alternative setups, about five categories where I am an officer do not allow me these changes) could easily correct some of them without having to go through the standard procedure.

 

The thought of adding the category to the waymark came, when I was more than half through the list of categories. So I added the category to the remaining ones in the correction run. Unfortunatly these are currently waymarks of only 345 categories, so I have to check about 11100 waymarks without a category by another program to assign the category. Development of that program will be done in the next few days.

 

Another currently open topic is the removal from the correction list if the waymark was corrected i.e. by the category officers. This removal will be useful when making a full import of the category - so this may take some time until it is developed.

 

Meanwhile you may have a look at the page https://wm.familie-frohne.net/open_regionwm.php where the 345 already processed categories are listed.

 

I hope, you may find this page helpful.

 

I just finished correcting the missing regions in all categories where I have direct edit rights. I didn't count, but I estimate the list is about 400 entries smaller when you do the next adjustment. So, only about 15% of the complete list, but better than nothing.

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