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adhaas85

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Hello, I've been aware of the concept of Geocaching for many years. I thought now would be as good a time as any to give it a try.

Not many free ones where I live, but I have a decent list in the surrounding areas. I wanted to take my kids (10 and 3) to try 3 or 4 and see if they enjoyed it.

 

What to do after you've found it, or what I'm even looking for is a complete mystery to me.

A box? A book? A jar? A tin? I have no clue.

 

I also don't know if I'm supposed to put something or take something? On here it makes it seem like I replace something that's in the "cache" but then I would need a bag of non-perishable goodies to put in there.

 

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.

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14 minutes ago, adhaas85 said:

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.

 

The Help Centre would be a good place to start. There are introductory videos as well as beginner's guides and just about everything else. There's a link to it at the bottom of every page on the website.

 

image.png.38d40eedb2450532eb8cb70fd018e358.png

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22 minutes ago, adhaas85 said:

Hello, I've been aware of the concept of Geocaching for many years. I thought now would be as good a time as any to give it a try.

Not many free ones where I live, but I have a decent list in the surrounding areas. I wanted to take my kids (10 and 3) to try 3 or 4 and see if they enjoyed it.

 

What to do after you've found it, or what I'm even looking for is a complete mystery to me.

A box? A book? A jar? A tin? I have no clue.

 

I also don't know if I'm supposed to put something or take something? On here it makes it seem like I replace something that's in the "cache" but then I would need a bag of non-perishable goodies to put in there.

 

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.

Honestly, not knowing what to find is part of the fun. Our first try, we were clueless, walking around in circles on the grass, not having a clue what we were looking for. After we finally did locate a cache (it was an ammo can, a regular size), then we said "Ohhhh!" and went back and found the other, which was a micro. Since you are introducing kids, maybe try for the lower D and T rated caches, with bigger than micro?  You don't have to trade anything, but if you take something, you should trade up or even. No food. Ever. Like ever. Not ever. Never.

 

The most important things to remember are to sign the log with your username(s), and replace the container as found so that muggles (non geocachers) don't find it/take it, etc.

 

But as your post asks, a container can be almost anything. Some are the size of a pencil eraser, and some are the size of a bread box/ammo can. The cache listing will tell you the size, as well as the Difficulty and Terrain rating. Watch for attributes, too. It may say kid friendly, or watch for snakes/thorns.

 

Pick easy ones at first. I hope you have fun!

 

 

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Another useful resource is Geocaching 101. I've answered your specific questions with quotes from that page.

 

20 minutes ago, adhaas85 said:

What to do after you've found it

At the most basic, "Sign the logbook and return the geocache to its original location."

 

But sometimes there are trade items in the cache, so: "If you take something from the geocache (or "cache"), leave something of equal or greater value."

 

The catch is that there are items called "trackables" that are not traded. Instead, finders are supposed to move them from cache to cache. "Each Trackable is etched with a unique code that can be used to log its movements on Geocaching.com as it travels in the real world. Some of these items have traveled hundreds of thousands of miles thanks to geocachers who move them from cache to cache!"

 

25 minutes ago, adhaas85 said:

what I'm even looking for is a complete mystery to me.

A box? A book? A jar? A tin? I have no clue.

"Geocaches vary greatly in size and appearance. In the field you will see everything from large, clear plastic containers to film canisters to a fake rock with a secret compartment. So, how do you find the cache?

 

"The first step is to get a general idea of the cache's size. The size is shown on each cache page. A general overview of the cache size graphic is found below. Please note that these are just examples; sizes can vary.

 

"Micro - Less than 100ml. Examples: a 35 mm film canister or a tiny storage box typically containing only a logbook or a logsheet. A nano cache is a common sub-type of a micro cache that is less than 10ml and can only hold a small logsheet.

 

"Small - 100ml or larger, but less than 1L. Example: A sandwich-sized plastic container or similar.

 

"Regular - 1L or larger, but less than 20L. Examples: a plastic container or ammo can about the size of a shoebox.

 

"Large - 20L or larger. Example: A large bucket.

 

"Other - See the cache description for information."

 

29 minutes ago, adhaas85 said:

I also don't know if I'm supposed to put something or take something? On here it makes it seem like I replace something that's in the "cache" but then I would need a bag of non-perishable goodies to put in there.

Trading is optional. But if you want to trade, then yes, you'll need some items to leave in exchange for the items you take. When choosing trade items, keep the following in mind:

 

"People of all ages hide and seek geocaches, so think carefully before placing an item into a cache. Explosives, ammunition, knives, drugs and alcohol should not be placed in a cache. Respect local laws at all times.

 

"Please do not put food or heavily scented items in a cache. Animals have better noses than humans, and in some cases caches have been chewed through and destroyed because of food items in a cache."

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To give you an idea of what you might find here are some geocaches and their content I've found in the past year. 

 

8ccb2a5e-f279-4fd0-89d0-856f313f258a.jpg 69ea9050-4e04-4e70-8d72-b93cb1a118b2.jpg 006cb76b-c92b-4044-a3f0-33b3dae33840.jpg a8a6507d-c252-4959-8702-be9e26f62e4e.jpg

05d49aa4-2eb7-4fc0-89cf-ff147f598625.jpg f9490509-b1fa-42a0-871d-00a1fa3715c2.jpg

 

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39 minutes ago, L0ne.R said:

To give you an idea of what you might find here are some geocaches and their content I've found in the past year. 

 

Ammo cans are also a fairly common container, particularly once you get out into the forests and mountains, like this traditional metal one:

 

AmmoCanMetal.jpg.489dd1cd29b8e021b1cb8db026f4493d.jpg

 

or the more modern plastic ones:

 

AmmoCanPlastic.jpg.00ff44ba3f9df37b81fe38536385f779.jpg

 

Also sometimes the container is themed to the cache, like these ones of mine:

 

ContainerMontage2.thumb.jpg.418f4f8cbaf1b23b50f7c050da3493c7.jpg

 

Expect the unexpected is a good rule of thumb!

 

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1 hour ago, adhaas85 said:

Hello, I've been aware of the concept of Geocaching for many years. I thought now would be as good a time as any to give it a try.

Not many free ones where I live, but I have a decent list in the surrounding areas. I wanted to take my kids (10 and 3) to try 3 or 4 and see if they enjoyed it.

 

What to do after you've found it, or what I'm even looking for is a complete mystery to me.

A box? A book? A jar? A tin? I have no clue.

 

I also don't know if I'm supposed to put something or take something? On here it makes it seem like I replace something that's in the "cache" but then I would need a bag of non-perishable goodies to put in there.

 

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.

 

Here's where to start in the Help Center:

https://www.geocaching.com/help/index.php?pg=kb.chapter&id=141&pgid=537

 

There are intro videos here and in The App, such as this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-4q6sYuyfY&feature=youtu.be

 

Welcome and good luck! :D

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On 9/22/2020 at 3:15 AM, adhaas85 said:

Hello, I've been aware of the concept of Geocaching for many years. I thought now would be as good a time as any to give it a try.

Not many free ones where I live, but I have a decent list in the surrounding areas. I wanted to take my kids (10 and 3) to try 3 or 4 and see if they enjoyed it.

 

What to do after you've found it, or what I'm even looking for is a complete mystery to me.

A box? A book? A jar? A tin? I have no clue.

 

I also don't know if I'm supposed to put something or take something? On here it makes it seem like I replace something that's in the "cache" but then I would need a bag of non-perishable goodies to put in there.

 

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.

As a total newbie,,, I had no idea what to expect.. BUT you just look for anything unusual...  I have been doing the traditional caches first as I know its a box.. sometimes as small as a film canister... I'm now at 22 caches and one travel bug... its well worth getting premium, and its cheap for the whole year.... Good luck

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On 9/22/2020 at 4:48 AM, barefootjeff said:

 

Ammo cans are also a fairly common container, particularly once you get out into the forests and mountains, like this traditional metal one:

 

AmmoCanMetal.jpg.489dd1cd29b8e021b1cb8db026f4493d.jpg

 

or the more modern plastic ones:

 

AmmoCanPlastic.jpg.00ff44ba3f9df37b81fe38536385f779.jpg

 

Also sometimes the container is themed to the cache, like these ones of mine:

 

ContainerMontage2.thumb.jpg.418f4f8cbaf1b23b50f7c050da3493c7.jpg

 

Expect the unexpected is a good rule of thumb!

 

not found anything THAT cool here in Portugal yet!!!  

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Never seen any ammo boxes here.. Bet there are lots in the states. Army and navy stores I guess.. the Uk too... never seen on here

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1 hour ago, CleverCloggs said:

not found anything THAT cool here in Portugal yet!!!  

56 minutes ago, CleverCloggs said:

Never seen any ammo boxes here.. Bet there are lots in the states. Army and navy stores I guess.. the Uk too... never seen on here

 

You've found a couple "regular"-sized caches.  What were they ?   :)

Here, ammo cans and Lock n Lock plastics seem the most popular the further away from a town (large green areas on the map) you are.

Some are now being replaced by wide-mouthed pill bottles when COs experience theft (they're cheap or free...).

 - My favorite CO, known for awesome locations and unique areas only uses pill bottles.

He's our favorite because he still goes by the idea of the marketing message "language of location",  rather than making the hobby all about "treasure".

 

It's possible I guess that certain areas just don't care for them.  That's a shame, as they're good containers, with the least maintenance.

The cost is a bit more than a film can too, no wonder why caches are wet.   ;)

It might be that they're not allowed in certain areas. We have some here that only want clear containers.  

 - I guess contacting some folks listed in the Geocaching policies wiki  for your country would say.

Edited by cerberus1
splleling

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46 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

I guess contacting some folks listed in the Geocaching policies wiki  for your country would say.

 

You don't wish better to those poor guys?

Broadly speaking we consider that military material are for military use, solely. Apart from that, I would advise to read this "assumptions" with a pinch of salt... a handful even. ;)

Edited by RuideAlmeida
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22 minutes ago, RuideAlmeida said:

You don't wish better to those poor guys?

Broadly speaking we consider that military material are for military use, solely. Apart from that, I would advise to read this "assumptions" with a pinch of salt... a handful even. ;)

 

To be clear, I did say, "It might be that they're not allowed in certain areas.  We have some here that only want clear containers. ".

Ammo cans are considered quality containers...

 

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2 hours ago, CleverCloggs said:

Never seen any ammo boxes here.. Bet there are lots in the states. Army and navy stores I guess.. the Uk too... never seen on here

 

The plastic one I bought in an outdoor leisure and camping store. It was in the fishing section and sold as a tackle box.

 

image.png.c95db520da9932767772f1237ecd2f1b.png

 

Maybe I should go and buy another one while they're on special.

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8 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

 

The plastic one I bought in an outdoor leisure and camping store. It was in the fishing section and sold as a tackle box.

 

image.png.c95db520da9932767772f1237ecd2f1b.png

 

Maybe I should go and buy another one while they're on special.

my nearest such shop is an hour away!   nothing nearer so far

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11 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

 

You've found a couple "regular"-sized caches.  What were they ?   :)

Here, ammo cans and Lock n Lock plastics seem the most popular the further away from a town (large green areas on the map) you are.

Some are now being replaced by wide-mouthed pill bottles when COs experience theft (they're cheap or free...).

 - My favorite CO, known for awesome locations and unique areas only uses pill bottles.

He's our favorite because he still goes by the idea of the marketing message "language of location",  rather than making the hobby all about "treasure".

 

It's possible I guess that certain areas just don't care for them.  That's a shame, as they're good containers, with the least maintenance.

The cost is a bit more than a film can too, no wonder why caches are wet.   ;)

It might be that they're not allowed in certain areas. We have some here that only want clear containers.  

 - I guess contacting some folks listed in the Geocaching policies wiki  for your country would say.

ALL the regular size, and  I mean... were dirty plastic boxes.. lids broken or bent, and yogurt pots with a scrappy bit of paper in... not seen anything as well looked after with proper logs etc and swag yet! its almost as if in 2012 they was a spike. And not they are just sitting in their place's rotting away!  The two that has been so far published, have been found almost immediately, so there are people looking... Iv hidden 3 more... and when they get published.................. people will have some proper cool ones.... 

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ps... my containers are within a 20km radius. Easy to keep an eye on....  an old bent yoghurt pot or jam jar with a bit of paper in it that cant be written on is no use.... LOL this is a premium!  cache??? NOOO don't think so! Beginning to think I need a refund LOL 

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9 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

 

The plastic one I bought in an outdoor leisure and camping store. It was in the fishing section and sold as a tackle box.

 

image.png.c95db520da9932767772f1237ecd2f1b.png

 

Maybe I should go and buy another one while they're on special.

That's about twice what I paid at a local disposals shop for a real one.

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8 minutes ago, CleverCloggs said:

ALL the regular size, and  I mean... were dirty plastic boxes.. lids broken or bent, and yogurt pots with a scrappy bit of paper in... not seen anything as well looked after with proper logs etc and swag yet! its almost as if in 2012 they was a spike. And not they are just sitting in their place's rotting away!  The two that has been so far published, have been found almost immediately, so there are people looking... Iv hidden 3 more... and when they get published.................. people will have some proper cool ones.... 

 

So far this year there have been 28 new caches published in my region (New South Wales Central Coast, Australia), although I seem to be the most prolific hider:

 

image.png.c5f1b52ab9a01e7b78a21387a43455c4.png

 

This is well up on last year when we had 18 new caches for the whole year (4 of them mine).

 

It may be a climate thing, but I've found plenty of caches that are more than ten years old and most are in excellent condition, like this one I found last year that was placed in 2008 and is still the original logbook in the original container:

 

GC1K67W.jpg.8dc8d437041427886119586c01a34676.jpg

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3 minutes ago, colleda said:

That's about twice what I paid at a local disposals shop for a real one.

 

By the time I drove to the nearest disposals shop and back it'd cost me a lot more, though.

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54 minutes ago, CleverCloggs said:

LOL this is a premium!  cache???

It's not a premium cache. 

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57 minutes ago, CleverCloggs said:

Beginning to think I need a refund LOL 

If you think paying $30 a year for a Premium Membership guarantees you'll find caches in good condition,  you've been misinformed. 

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26 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

If you think paying $30 a year for a Premium Membership guarantees you'll find caches in good condition,  you've been misinformed. 

probably! It would be fun to just find..ONE  intact cache.. but then I have only found 22 so far! maybe it has to be hundreds before you find a nice maintained one around here... 

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52 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

 

So far this year there have been 28 new caches published in my region (New South Wales Central Coast, Australia), although I seem to be the most prolific hider:

 

image.png.c5f1b52ab9a01e7b78a21387a43455c4.png

 

This is well up on last year when we had 18 new caches for the whole year (4 of them mine).

 

It may be a climate thing, but I've found plenty of caches that are more than ten years old and most are in excellent condition, like this one I found last year that was placed in 2008 and is still the original logbook in the original container:

 

GC1K67W.jpg.8dc8d437041427886119586c01a34676.jpg

I have hidden 5, got 2 published so far.. and will keep them in excellent condition.. as that's what the game is? looking after something in a game you play...  could be the fact that here..there was a surge in cache hiding in 2012, when I checked, then just left there.. and people put new bits of paper in as a courtesy ( I do it too) never seen a cache like your photo yet! 

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1 hour ago, CleverCloggs said:

ALL the regular size, and  I mean... were dirty plastic boxes.. lids broken or bent, and yogurt pots with a scrappy bit of paper in... not seen anything as well looked after with proper logs etc and swag yet! its almost as if in 2012 they was a spike. And not they are just sitting in their place's rotting away!  The two that has been so far published, have been found almost immediately, so there are people looking... Iv hidden 3 more... and when they get published.................. people will have some proper cool ones.... 

thanks for the  link.. I had read that a while back, in fact before I joined this..I read up and YouTube ed tons of clips to learn.... Alentejo is different here, in my area... I actually live in a preserved nature area... which is very beautiful... to find good places is a task, as the good ones are already filled by broken and unwanted caches....  

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43 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

If you think paying $30 a year for a Premium Membership guarantees you'll find caches in good condition,  you've been misinformed. 

You are in the USA,.. I can imagine there are a plethora of cool caches..Not like here in sleepy Alentejo, Portugal where time and things are forgotten  ;)

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Just now, CleverCloggs said:

You are in the USA,.. I can imagine there are a plethora of cool caches..Not like here in sleepy Alentejo, Portugal where time and things are forgotten  ;)

Different geocaching all together! Unless you live in this are you don't know the state of half of them. So I tend to agree. America is probably jam packed with good caches. And new ones published often. Unlike here. 

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14 minutes ago, CleverCloggs said:

I have hidden 5, got 2 published so far.. and will keep them in excellent condition.. as that's what the game is? looking after something in a game you play...  could be the fact that here..there was a surge in cache hiding in 2012, when I checked, then just left there.. and people put new bits of paper in as a courtesy ( I do it too) never seen a cache like your photo yet! 

I found one yesterday, a climbed a huge hill, found a plastic juice bottle, broken and one piece of paper! disappointing! 

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4 minutes ago, CleverCloggs said:

You are in the USA,.. I can imagine there are a plethora of cool caches..Not like here in sleepy Alentejo, Portugal where time and things are forgotten  ;)

the states are different, cannot compare! 

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41 minutes ago, CleverCloggs said:

It would be fun to just find..ONE  intact cache

But you have found intact caches, right? 

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8 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

But you have found intact caches, right? 

2 mini ones... OLD but fine.. found a lovely place where it was hiding too... 

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2 minutes ago, CleverCloggs said:

2 mini ones... OLD but fine.. found a lovely place where it was hiding too... 

The old historic caches are very much appreciated in my area. Every state/country has their oldest one, and it's a common goal to go find it/them. 

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2 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

The old historic caches are very much appreciated in my area. Every state/country has their oldest one, and it's a common goal to go find it/them. 

If we could travel I think I would do a world wide geocacheing holiday!!! 

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Just now, CleverCloggs said:

If we could travel I think I would do a world wide geocacheing holiday!!! 

You'd be surprised and how many International travelers have goals to find the oldest caches in every area. Geotours can also be big draws for travelers. 

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1 minute ago, Max and 99 said:

You'd be surprised and how many International travelers have goals to find the oldest caches in every area. Geotours can also be big draws for travelers. 

I bet! I have been to the states a couple of times... last time was 2015 for a book award!!! wish I would have known about geocaching then! 

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11 minutes ago, CleverCloggs said:

wish I would have known about geocaching then! 

A very common sentiment!

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On 9/22/2020 at 3:15 AM, adhaas85 said:

.

 

I also don't know if I'm supposed to put something or take something? On here it makes it seem like I replace something that's in the "cache" but then I would need a bag of non-perishable goodies to put in there.

 

 

I tend to put something in, and take nothing...  If I had my grandchildren with me, Im sure they would want to take something :) 

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1 minute ago, Max and 99 said:

A very common sentiment!

I only found out about this by accident!!!  and even if my area is pretty pants, as soon as 2020 buggers off and all the world is slightly calmer, I shall go hunting LOl geocaching the world! 

Edited by CleverCloggs

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7 hours ago, Max and 99 said:
8 hours ago, CleverCloggs said:

Beginning to think I need a refund LOL 

If you think paying $30 a year for a Premium Membership guarantees you'll find caches in good condition,  you've been misinformed. 

Exactly. I've heard a lot of reasons why cache owners mark their caches PMO (Premium Member Only). Most of them have nothing to do with the cache being a premium experience in any way. Many are actually just trying to keep a cache--any cache--from being destroyed by cache maggots.

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1 hour ago, niraD said:

Exactly. I've heard a lot of reasons why cache owners mark their caches PMO (Premium Member Only). Most of them have nothing to do with the cache being a premium experience in any way. Many are actually just trying to keep a cache--any cache--from being destroyed by cache maggots.

cache maggots?? enlighten me please :) 

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4 minutes ago, CleverCloggs said:

cache maggots?? enlighten me please :) 

AKA Cache Pirates.

They go around destroying or stealing caches. Often they leave their calling card.

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43 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

AKA Cache Pirates.

They go around destroying or stealing caches. Often they leave their calling card.

aww that's horrible!!!! flippin heck!

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17 hours ago, colleda said:

That's about twice what I paid at a local disposals shop for a real one.

We get them new here for US$11.99 with coupon.  If anyone in the US wants to clip this one, feel free.  Good until 10/31/20.

These are decent cans with very good quality seals.

 

243786898_50cal.jpg.002ca45fe3a946f3f8ea3bc21cc2d402.jpg

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18 hours ago, colleda said:

That's about twice what I paid at a local disposals shop for a real one.

 

Wow. 

When our cache group chipped in for pallets of 30 and 50cals (GSA auctions),  we picked up more than most at 2 bucks each for 30cal.   :)

I needed some for ammo too.     :D

IIRC, 50cal was 4...

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Some of the Northern Colorado crowd (Team Tiger Pride) who are actually from Cheyenne, Wyoming, did that a few years ago.  Showed up at one of our major events with a pickup truck load of the things (.30 cal) from auction.  A steal at 'retail' for $3.  Most of them were in pretty good shape, too.  Not much rust at all.

 

It pays to inspect a few seals before picking up a whole pallet of them, though.  Going to McMaster to buy new seal material is a real project, and you have to silicone seal the tiny gaps in the corners, even a nice mitering job is done.

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7 hours ago, ecanderson said:

We get them new here for US$11.99 with coupon.  If anyone in the US wants to clip this one, feel free.  Good until 10/31/20.

These are decent cans with very good quality seals.

 

243786898_50cal.jpg.002ca45fe3a946f3f8ea3bc21cc2d402.jpg

never seen them here... but then again.. wasn't looking for them.. will do though....

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One main problem considering the price is that a piece gets more expansive as soon as it's good for geocaching.

 

About 15 years ago film canisters were trash and so you got them for free. Nowadays shops will sell them especially for geocaching purposes and they take too much money for it. These cans are getting more expensive every day it seems if you buy them in a geocaching shop.

 

In the beginning of my geocaching career I bought two solid ammo cans for about 10 euro (about 11 $) and nowadays geocaching shops won't give me one for that price. It didn't say geocaching than so I bought them for whatever they thought I want to do with them. Nowadays they are sold especially for geocaching purposes again.

 

Another example are key holder stones that you can buy for a little money - but they get expensive as nowadays they are "special cool geocache containers". Something like that: https://www.ebay.de/i/120756313146?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=707-134425-41852-0&mkcid=2&itemid=120756313146&targetid=942625292057&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9041873&poi=&campaignid=10199424640&mkgroupid=101937414157&rlsatarget=pla-942625292057&abcId=1145992&merchantid=7395352&gclid=Cj0KCQjwtsv7BRCmARIsANu-CQeF0dJwuCxXqckfZWohNhnd4GgQIVgEw3SFICrML4YaJpukdzy-dqYaAuP5EALw_wcB

Some years ago they were used to hide keys - now it's "SCHLÜSSEL, CACHES UND VIELES MEHR" (keys, caches and many more) so one of the main purposes is to be a cache container and therefore it's much more valuable.

 

It is about the market - as long as cachers pay the high price..... But nevertheless it's still worth it - spending a little money to get a good container but I do not like the trend...

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On 9/22/2020 at 4:48 AM, barefootjeff said:

 

Ammo cans are also a fairly common container, particularly once you get out into the forests and mountains, like this traditional metal one:

 

AmmoCanMetal.jpg.489dd1cd29b8e021b1cb8db026f4493d.jpg

 

or the more modern plastic ones:

 

AmmoCanPlastic.jpg.00ff44ba3f9df37b81fe38536385f779.jpg

 

Also sometimes the container is themed to the cache, like these ones of mine:

 

ContainerMontage2.thumb.jpg.418f4f8cbaf1b23b50f7c050da3493c7.jpg

 

Expect the unexpected is a good rule of thumb!

 

really cool caches! not found anything like that here just yet, just a lot of broken ones.. But I live in hope...  Our area is very isolated, and lots of trees abandoned building etc.. no big city near by, and Covid stops us from going into Lisbon and places to search.. later though maybe. 

  • Funny 1

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On 9/28/2020 at 8:33 AM, RetroRider1955 said:

 Unlike here. 

quite.. Its is marvelously sleepy in Alentejo....

20131126_172221.jpg

Edited by CleverCloggs
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8 minutes ago, CleverCloggs said:

quite.. Its is marvelously sleep in Alentejo.... )hope we don't get told off for saying that!!!

 

As far as the eye can see, marvelous and sleep are lovely words, but I will keep watching, sometimes things are not as they seem... ;)

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