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Deepdiggingmole
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Yea - I understand that - I am trying to convince someone that going anonymous completely like that is not the same as 'hiding your stats' 
They have seen the '?' on a couple of lists (top 10 finders in the world for example) and are under the impression that this was simply due to hiding their stats 
Their argument againt going anonymous is that GC guidelines says this isnt possible - though I would suggest it is 

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Now it sounds like you are talking about Project-GC, perhaps?  There are no "lists" on Geocaching.com for "top 10 finders in the world."  

 

In addition to GDPR's "right to be forgotten," there is a separate right driven by privacy laws such as California's CCPA.  Any user can say "do not share my information with third party websites."  Someone who exercises that right will show up as a question mark on Project-GC, Cachly or any other third party partner application.  

 

This right is also in addition to / separate from the functionality on Geocaching.com to hide stats from others.

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3 hours ago, Keystone said:

Now it sounds like you are talking about Project-GC, perhaps?  There are no "lists" on Geocaching.com for "top 10 finders in the world."  

 

In addition to GDPR's "right to be forgotten," there is a separate right driven by privacy laws such as California's CCPA.  Any user can say "do not share my information with third party websites."  Someone who exercises that right will show up as a question mark on Project-GC, Cachly or any other third party partner application.  

 

This right is also in addition to / separate from the functionality on Geocaching.com to hide stats from others.

Yes, the lists are in PGC 
OK - this sounds promising (to clarify my point)

Is the bit in the geocaching site on your account in 'Settings' then 'Authorizations' where it has a tick box saying "Do not share my personal information with Authorized Developer applications." - is it this that then causes your account to become anonymous (shows as a '?') to sites such as Project-GC or cacherstats  ?

Edited by Deepdiggingmole
amend question
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32 minutes ago, Deepdiggingmole said:

Is the bit in the geocaching site on your account in 'Settings' then 'Authorizations' where it has a tick box saying "Do not share my personal information with Authorized Developer applications." - is it this that then causes your account to become anonymous (shows as a '?') to sites such as Project-GC or cacherstats  ?

 

It is a bit silly though.

Practical example: I load caches in GSAK via API and those who don't want to share are listed as "opted-out user". If I then put the caches by these CO's on a list and download the GPX which is then imported in GSAK the CO's name is shown again. As GSAK can lock these fields later API refreshes will not overwrite the CO's name. The effect of not sharing the data is thus rendered useless.

 

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I think it's frankly ridiculous if someone who is a cache owner wants to keep their information 100% private, if that means that no third party can receive any information about the owner account.  IMO If this is how it works and you want a private account, you should not be able to own a cache listing. Otherwise, if you want to make your account private, you'll have to adopt out or archive your owned caches. It's not a technical thing, it's a common sense thing. The cache is yours. If everything about your account is censored yet you own public geocaches, it does not compute.

Either make your account obviously about yourself and care nothing about privacy if you want to own a cache, or make your account a completely anonymized personna so that there's absolutely no reason to want to make your account private. Yeeshk. We use aliases, usernames, monikers, handles these days online for a reason already.

 

You want a private account and want to geocache freely on the site? Use a custom email, use an alias (not a real name), don't provide any details about yourself anywhere, don't meet people and share your geocaching name, don't own any geocaches that reveal anything about yourself... I mean I could understand someone being only a cache-finder and requesting that full privacy lockdown, but anything else just seems... way too demanding given the type of hobby this is and being so reliant upon community. =/

 

/rant over :P

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3 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

I think it's frankly ridiculous if someone who is a cache owner wants to keep their information 100% private, if that means that no third party can receive any information about the owner account.  IMO If this is how it works and you want a private account, you should not be able to own a cache listing. Otherwise, if you want to make your account private, you'll have to adopt out or archive your owned caches. It's not a technical thing, it's a common sense thing. The cache is yours. If everything about your account is censored yet you own public geocaches, it does not compute.

Either make your account obviously about yourself and care nothing about privacy if you want to own a cache, or make your account a completely anonymized personna so that there's absolutely no reason to want to make your account private. Yeeshk. We use aliases, usernames, monikers, handles these days online for a reason already.

 

You want a private account and want to geocache freely on the site? Use a custom email, use an alias (not a real name), don't provide any details about yourself anywhere, don't meet people and share your geocaching name, don't own any geocaches that reveal anything about yourself... I mean I could understand someone being only a cache-finder and requesting that full privacy lockdown, but anything else just seems... way too demanding given the type of hobby this is and being so reliant upon community. =/

 

/rant over :P

 

To be fair, it's only in 3rd-party applications that this info can't be seen, so they aren't really anonymous. If you view the cache page or the CO's profile, everything looks like it always has.

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6 minutes ago, The A-Team said:

 

To be fair, it's only in 3rd-party applications that this info can't be seen, so they aren't really anonymous. If you view the cache page or the CO's profile, everything looks like it always has.

 

It's a potential problem for Challenge Cache COs, though, as they can't check the qualifications of loggers who've opted out of third party applications but, under the current guidelines, can't require those finders to document their qualification.

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2 hours ago, The A-Team said:

To be fair, it's only in 3rd-party applications that this info can't be seen, so they aren't really anonymous. If you view the cache page or the CO's profile, everything looks like it always has.

 

Right that's merely the restriction to 3rd parties. My rant kind of slid over into the all-out 'forget me' option. I think there's a disconnect if someone wants to stay anonymous to 3rd party apps when the whole point of geocaching is that it's a public pastime, and making your info anonymous to 3rd parties is kind of pointless, really, if all the 3rd apps are approved by GCHQ and therefore "as trustworthy" as the 1st party system. Any problems and the approved partner status would be revoked. It should be more like an all-or-nothing thing, which is the 'erase my existence' option.

 

I guess, if that extreme case is a profile scrub, as in you actually aren't intending to use the account any more, then it doesn't really matter - any geocaches you own should be archived or adopted anyway. If there isn't an option for "I want to play normally and own geocaches but I don't want my information known to anyone", then I guess the major point of my rant is moot :P  I just think there's an inconsistency in wanting any form of personal privacy (if not already 100% anonymous alter-alias) when you actively own geocache listings; that mechanic doesn't translate well in the geocaching universe, imo.

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12 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

It's a potential problem for Challenge Cache COs, though, as they can't check the qualifications of loggers who've opted out of third party applications but, under the current guidelines, can't require those finders to document their qualification.

 

 

A cache owner near me that's one of my favorite hiders, on project gc, the username on his owned caches is ~optout~.  But I can run his name through a checker and get correct output.

 

Ordinarily output on project gc includes a link to the username profile on Geocaching.com - when this name is run, there's no link, but the output of the checker is there.

 

Privacy rules keep changing, so this may change too at some point. But I don't think it's true right now.   And it strikes me as unlikely that someone would both opt out, and then log a challenge, and the checker can't function. 

 

I suspect that only DELETED USER (remove account) would fail.

Edited by Isonzo Karst
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It seems you edited out the info on your opt-in/out but chances are that your username is still linked to older founds but newer finds (after opt-out) may no longer be linked. It all depends to the way PGC stores the info.

As I mentioned before, a CO may be listed as Opted-out user when getting the cache info into GSAK via API but reloading the same cache as GPX, be it individual file, list or PQ, the name will be seen as on the website. Locking the data protects it from being overwritten by future API calls. I have no "opted-out users" in any of my databases.  The moment that changes I will just as happily move them from the opted-out list to the ignore list. If I can't know who places a cache I can't (won't) filter out their caches to go find them.

 

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45 minutes ago, on4bam said:

The moment that changes I will just as happily move them from the opted-out list to the ignore list. If I can't know who places a cache I can't (won't) filter out their caches to go find them.

 

I think there's some confusion here. On or for project gc sharing, a user local to me has opted out. On project gc, his owned caches are listed as owned by opted out.   His  username will still work in a project gc checker, and his caches will return if I run my name in a checker and his caches are part of the qualifying group.

 

On Geocaching.com, his caches are listed as owned by his username, linked to his account. 

 

Currently, the only way to become unknown  on Geocaching.com is to ask to have your account deleted.  At that point any caches that you might own will still exist on the site, owner name DELETED_USER.  The listings will be archived and locked.

If you have a  find on any of them, it'll still come in a MyFinds query, but owner will be DELETED_USER, that username link goes to an article Deleted user in the Help Center.

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I have never 'opted out' or changed my settings but now suddenly people are thanking 'opted out user' formy caches.  So I researched it and went into authorizations and clicked the 'share with developers box' as someone had suggested.  Today I again i recieved an 'opted-out user' thank you.....  not sure what's going on??? I don't want to be 'opted out'.  Can anyone help?

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I was able to import all your owned caches with no problem into GSAK (a third party authorized developer).  So, your account settings are as you want them to be at this time.

 

My guess is that someone is using a third party authorized app, like Cachly for example, and had saved your caches for offline use prior to when you changed your account settings.

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This comes back to the question of why a cache owner's username is restricted from 3rd party apps, when it's specifically intended to be sought and found by the public and shouldn't have an anonymous owner. Logs and activity perhaps.  For the cache owner, 3rd party apps only get the filtered username 'opted-out-user' which populates their log templates. Seems very odd to hide the cache owner name only from 3rd party apps, but not the website or official app. :huh: 

 

Edited by thebruce0
Added a "but" for grammatical clarity
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30 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

For the cache owner, 3rd party apps only get the filtered username 'opted-out-user' which populates their log templates. Seems very odd to hide the cache owner name only from 3rd party apps, not the website or official app

 

The opted-out-user has only requested their name be anonymous on  a 3rd party app. 

 

If they want to be anonymous on the website, they can not hide.    They've got some privacy options on public profile, but anonymous hider is not one of them. 

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Yes that's what I'm saying - it keeps their name as the cache owner private on 3rd party apps, not on the website or official app. The cache owner's name. That's odd. (I know there's no way to make your name private on the website or official app)

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On 6/20/2022 at 11:52 AM, thebruce0 said:

This comes back to the question of why a cache owner's username is restricted from 3rd party apps, when it's specifically intended to be sought and found by the public and shouldn't have an anonymous owner.

 

For your "why" question, please see my posts in this thread from February 2020, explaining the impact of Privacy Laws around the world which empower individuals to say that they don't want their personal information shared with third parties.  Geocaching HQ had no choice but to implement this right, in order to continue making the website available in jurisdictions that have such laws.

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I know HQ's hands were reportedly tied on this. It's still dumb and doesn't make sense. Maybe just because the context of the law for this website and hobby seem contradictory. It's a very public website, with information that is willingly shared publicly (when you publish a geocache to be found by the public), so it seems nonsensical to hide the owner of the geocache listing - but only from 3rd party apps.

I mean, I don't think services like Xbox Live have that option, to hide account profile names from any 3rd party apps that make use of game data, for instance. If anything they may just have an option to make the account private. But then XBL doesn't have a publicly visible list of assets owned by a user that might need to be affected by a privacy law in this weird limbo zone. But there are media shares.

I don't know if it's something that there's a way around to have it make sense (like TOU fine print that in wilfully opting in to list a geocache you're rescinding your privacy setting to 3rd party apps in the context of your username being visible as the owner), or maybe just disallowing people with strict privacy settings from publishing publicly visible geocache listings... *shrug*  It's the context of the application of the law that's just really really odd.

 

Especially when 3rd party apps just have to add one hoop to jump through - "Want to see the cache owner's name? Tap here to view the listing in your mobile browser". Just so extraneous...

 

anyway,

/soapbox :omnomnom:

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On 6/20/2022 at 11:52 AM, thebruce0 said:

This comes back to the question of why a cache owner's username is restricted from 3rd party apps, when it's specifically intended to be sought and found by the public and shouldn't have an anonymous owner. Logs and activity perhaps.  For the cache owner, 3rd party apps only get the filtered username 'opted-out-user' which populates their log templates. Seems very odd to hide the cache owner name only from 3rd party apps, but not the website or official app. :huh: 

 

 

Really?  We don't belong to gsak or project gc.  Maybe if FTF was available when we started it might have been different...

I've had the button clicked on "Do not share my personal information with Authorized Developer applications" since it was a thing.

But every "stat" and all info is right there on my stats page/profile.  This is the site we signed into, not your "other" one.   :)

We've kept it open so others can see we lead by example (when people years ago had issues with multiple logging).

If you must have my "name" included in your stats for some odd reason,  work a bit for it...

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15 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

Really?

:huh: yeah really. This has nothing to do with stats btw. And it's not the only website or service that has profiles providing public data for public use...

 

12 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

As far as the website goes, geocachers are fictional characters with no required resemblence to any actual person living or dead. Do fictional characters really have a right to privacy?

yeah, it could be a completely fictional and made up account with fake everything, and still be opted-out. It's an odd annoyance in the context of viewing public data, like information about a geocache that was willingly listed for the public to view.  IANAL, but I'd think that having a disclaimer that when you list a geocache publicly (ie anywhere, even PM), then certain elements of your profile (such as the cache owner name) won't fall under 3rd-party-app obfuscation, due to the fundamentally public nature of the asset being shared, and the fact that you're opting in to listing it on the website.  It's not passive sharing of data you don't know is going out to 3rd party apps. You opt in to make your account private (though it's not private, just limited to 3rd party api uses). You also opt in to list a public asset which includes certain elements of your profile (the text of your account name or link to profile - which is also viewed publicly).

It's just a weird mix of stuff and limits... but whatev, I'm getting lost in the rant again :P heh

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5 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

 

Really?  We don't belong to gsak or project gc.  Maybe if FTF was available when we started it might have been different...

I've had the button clicked on "Do not share my personal information with Authorized Developer applications" since it was a thing.

But every "stat" and all info is right there on my stats page/profile.  This is the site we signed into, not your "other" one.   :)

We've kept it open so others can see we lead by example (when people years ago had issues with multiple logging).

If you must have my "name" included in your stats for some odd reason,  work a bit for it...

 

When I was preparing my two challenge caches, which are both attribute-based, I had to compile a list of nearby cachers who either already qualified or were close to doing so, both to help me set the bar for the challenge and to satisfy the reviewer that the challenges were attainable. At the time, the only way to see how many finds a cacher had with a particular attribute was through Project GC,  and even now the geocaching website search doesn't support negative attributes (in my case, Takes more than an hour), so it was a bit frustrating when I'd bump up against players who'd blocked their statistics from third party sites, particularly as this region doesn't have very many active cachers to pick from. So no, not all the info is right there on your stats page.

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4 hours ago, JL_HSTRE said:
On 6/22/2022 at 11:41 AM, cerberus1 said:

We don't belong to gsak or project gc.

 

They don't get private data; they get data that is already public. If there is any personal information available you voluntarily put it in your profile or logs.

 

And, ultimately, like anything public on the internet, stopping 3rd party apps from getting data directly doesn't stop them from getting data at all. Many people have had a misunderstanding of privacy because of that (see the shock and fear when people who don't know any better could google their address and see the visual of their front porch on street view). 3rd party apps can get the 'private' (hidden to 3rd party) data other ways. Of course in GC context that would void their right to use the API (but we know another app that shall not be mentioned, which can effectively give an obscene gesture to this 3rd-party-block feature already), so it's not smart to get the publicly-available user data that's inconveniently blocked from their API access.  And while it's a good gesture from HQ to provide this function (and essentially have their hands tied by GDPR anyway), it really isn't about privacy, and hopefully anyone who has this turned on for their profile understands what's actually happening here.

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