Government land, locked gate, No trespassing,..

[+Lost_not_found]

Went caching today and 3 of my targets were on state (or federal) land, beyond a locked gate and barbed wire fence, with the "No Trespassing" signage.

 

Several questions

1) Are these allowed?

2) Since the owner of the cache needs permission and a review before it's published, does that mean I have permission to jump the 4 foot fence? (I'd need a ladder)

3)If I'm stopped by some official, as I was today at another find, do I have a defense if charged with trespassing?

4)If this type of location is not be allowed, how do I report it to have it removed?

[+barefootjeff]

If you come to a No Trespassing sign or a gate/fence that's intended to keep people out (as opposed to just motor vehicles), then no, don't go in there. The reviewers don't visit the cache locations, so as long as it's not obviously private property on the map or satellite image, they have to take the CO's word for it that it's public land and whatever permission is needed has been obtained. That said, a few things come to mind:

• Are your coordinates accurate? If, for example, your GPSr is showing it a couple of metres inside the fence, maybe it's actually outside. Or if it's a puzzle or multi cache, maybe you have the wrong coordinates.
• If the fenced property is narrow, could the cache be on public land on the other side of it, perhaps accessed from a different road?
• Has anyone else mentioned the fence, gate and sign in their logs? If they haven't, and it's not a brand new cache, are you absolutely sure you're in the right place?
• If the CO has permission to be on that land behind the gate, they should have mentioned it in the cache description. Is there anything in that to suggest this?

If none of those things apply and you're as certain as you can be that the cache is on that prohibited land, log a DNF and at least an NM or even an NA, preferably including a photo of the fence, gate and sign. Provide as much information as you can so the owner and/or reviewer can take appropriate action.

[+Touchstone]

The quickest way to report it would be through a Needs Archived Log which notifies the local Reviewer.  In a situation like that, I might also follow up with contacting HQ directly through the Help Center contact process.

 

Without further information, it sounds like something changed between the time the Listing was Published and when you went looking for it.  Stuff happens, and the cache owner needs to adjust (aka Archive the Listing).

[+Lost_not_found]

There are 3 by the same CO in the area, very close to each other, all on "Prohibited" land. Placed 2015/2016, with around 150 finds each and very few DNF. Last find yesterday.

NO comments about the location.

There IS a parking spot, with coordinates, in the description that would have you enter from a different direction ... and a hike... but still fenced.

 

Just had a good look on Google Maps and there does seem to be a track of sorts from the parking spot. I was there today but saw no easy access over the fence.

I'll go take another look tomorrow.

 

Thanks to both of you for the advice.

[+cerberus1]

1 hour ago, Lost_not_found said:

Went caching today and 3 of my targets were on state (or federal) land, beyond a locked gate and barbed wire fence, with the "No Trespassing" signage.

 

Several questions

1) Are these allowed?

2) Since the owner of the cache needs permission and a review before it's published, does that mean I have permission to jump the 4 foot fence? (I'd need a ladder)

3)If I'm stopped by some official, as I was today at another find, do I have a defense if charged with trespassing?

4)If this type of location is not be allowed, how do I report it to have it removed?

 

We've found quite a few caches in front of "no trespassing" signs, but coordinates showed the cache beyond.   

With civilian GPS only accurate to around 10 feet, between you and the hider it could be more like 25.

 Are others logging finds ?

 If others are, what makes you think there's gotta be something shady going on ? 

You may simply be taking a different direction. 

 - We see even long-time, high-numbers folks do that all the time.  Trying to get there quicker maybe....

We had a cache that was a 1-mile flat walk along a creek.  We'd get logs saying "how steep that cliff was..." "dangerous cliffs...".  

They weren't at the posted parking, or they would have seen the trail starts from your car door. 

 

A couple parks near me still have old "posted" signage along their borders, left-overs from deer camps and farms that used to own the property.

One large one a few counties over has no trespassing signs and cameras stationed about the property, with a couple caches inside.

 - It was a fed confiscation,  the cameras long-inoperable, and signage left over from it's previous "tenant".  It's now a park too.

A property I visited just a week ago still has posted signs past the tree line, along it's back half.  It's been that way for nine years.

[+barefootjeff]

5 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

They weren't at the posted parking, or they would have seen the trail starts from your car door. 

 

One of my pet annoyances with the website and app is that the driving directions take no account of a cache's parking and/or trailhead waypoints, instead directing seekers to the road closest to the cache. I had a cache, which I ended up archiving because of safety concerns, where the driving directions in the app pointed people to a street at the top of a cliff. The cache was in a sea cave at the base and accessed by parking about five hundred metres south and walking along the foreshore.

[+Viajero Perdido]

We also make do with a map style that ignores parking areas or no-trespassing zones in the OSM data. It would be useful...

[+cerberus1]

30 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

One of my pet annoyances with the website and app is that the driving directions take no account of a cache's parking and/or trailhead waypoints, instead directing seekers to the road closest to the cache.

 

Most here use nuvis or similar, not relying on cache directions when posted coordinates to parking are there. 

This might be worth the "irk" thread if it wasn't so ridiculous...  

We've seen a lot of people mention hassles they went through, and we can tell they either never scrolled down to see the parking coordinates, or were just looking for something closer.     

Some we put there for a reason.  The upset folks who for some odd reason, think a drop off a cliff is only a 2 in terrain sure didn't understand that...

Others, like the driveway to a huge gamelands parking that runs in-between the driveways of two homes.   Many are like that.

  - We've seen cacher's cars parked in the road (the tell-tale scarab decal).    Wonder who's yard they walked through...

[+niraD]

1 hour ago, barefootjeff said:

That said, a few things come to mind:

• Are your coordinates accurate? If, for example, your GPSr is showing it a couple of metres inside the fence, maybe it's actually outside. Or if it's a puzzle or multi cache, maybe you have the wrong coordinates.
• If the fenced property is narrow, could the cache be on public land on the other side of it, perhaps accessed from a different road?
• Has anyone else mentioned the fence, gate and sign in their logs? If they haven't, and it's not a brand new cache, are you absolutely sure you're in the right place?
• If the CO has permission to be on that land behind the gate, they should have mentioned it in the cache description. Is there anything in that to suggest this?

 

I've also done a few caches where part of the point was for the seeker to find safe and legal access to the cache location. Like barefootjeff's example of a sea cave cache, there was no safe legal access from the roads closest to the cache locations. The point was to figure out how you could access the cache location safely and legally.

[+Joe_L]

If there is a fence and locked gate, then is appears that the property owner doesn’t want anyone coming in from that side.  Maybe there is an open gate or access somewhere else.

 

Check the cache pages including the logs to see if the property owner is mentioned.  If it is government-owned land, it might not be a park, but it could be a wildlife refuge or some other “greenspace” with few or no amenities of a park.

 

Check other maps and see what the property is.

 

The fence may be there to prevent adjacent landowners form using the land.  There is a possibility that the “No Trespassing” signs are just for a portion of the area that is further fenced off internally.  The property might have been formerly operated by another agency (DoD, for example) and a smaller area is fenced and signed because previous site activities have made for unacceptable use conditions. 

[+31BMSG]

13 hours ago, Lost_not_found said:

Went caching today and 3 of my targets were on state (or federal) land, beyond a locked gate and barbed wire fence, with the "No Trespassing" signage.

 

Several questions

1) Are these allowed?

2) Since the owner of the cache needs permission and a review before it's published, does that mean I have permission to jump the 4 foot fence? (I'd need a ladder)

3)If I'm stopped by some official, as I was today at another find, do I have a defense if charged with trespassing?

4)If this type of location is not be allowed, how do I report it to have it removed?

The locked gate makes it obvious you can't go after the cache but before you log a NA you might touch base with the CO, it's possible it was open when it was placed but now closed, either temporarily or permanently. Both BLM and AZ state trust land have been known to temporarily close areas. State trust land allows caches placed according to ASLD guidelines but to access them you need a recreational permit. Any cache on BLM land I've come across has been a free for all as long as the gate wasn't locked, but you should probably do some research on that.

[+colleda]

Could be on a reservation?

[+kunarion]

9 hours ago, Joe_L said:

If there is a fence and locked gate, then is appears that the property owner doesn’t want anyone coming in from that side.  Maybe there is an open gate or access somewhere else.

 

There's a cache behind a locked gate with “NO Public Access / Authorized Personnel Only” signs at the edge of a local city park. I think that gate is new. The off-limits area is a retention pond. There's equipment back there. And attentive authorities roam the area.  "DNF".  I didn't feel like working my way down there. It just seemed like a bad idea.

 

Turns out, the cache has permission for placement and has been doing OK for 13 years. The park people don't want everyone hanging out down there. You can log the cache, and that's OK. Yeah, there are actually two ways to get down there without jumping the fence.

 

But I'm still always wary in those situations. I'm gonna go find out, before, say, climbing over the fence with a ladder. I'm a LEO magnet.

 

[+icezebra11]

Lost_not_found,

Are these caches in the fenced area traditional caches?  The reason I ask is that I see you are a new cacher and occasionally new cachers are unfamiliar with Mystery/Puzzle caches and try to find a cache at the posted coordinates, which are false.  Those types of caches require you to solve a puzzle of some sort to obtain the true coordinates.

 

If they are truly traditional caches, you might try contacting the cache owner or a previous finder for advice on access.

Edited January 5, 2020 by icezebra11

[+Goldenwattle]

15 minutes ago, icezebra11 said:

Are these caches in the fenced area traditional caches?  The reason I ask is that I see you are a new cacher and occasionally new cachers are unfamiliar with Mystery/Puzzle caches and try to find a cache at the posted coordinates, which are false.  Those types of caches require you to solve a puzzle of some sort to obtain the true coordinates.

I had a puzzle cache icon showing up in the middle of a pond on private property. Somehow the land owner saw this on the internet and I had to move the coordinates to a nearby road, even though the cache wasn't on the private property.

[+Lost_not_found]

UPDATE:

I haven't been back there yet, I plan to go tomorrow. After a bit of looking at maps and other info it seems the land is owned by the Department of water resources. 

 

Here is the thing. Being new to geocaching and the use of hand held GPS devises, I'm kind of blindly following wherever the GPS points me. In this case it lead me to the entrance to the "Dam" which is the only road to the caches. They are WELL inside the fence. When I saw the gate / sign I looked for another way in and drove down a road that runs along the side of the property. It's a well used road. Got as close to the cache as possible on that road and pulled over. At this time I had not read the description of the cache (Mistake #1) so I didn't see the parking info. Anyway, I was in a small parking area. Didn't see any access over or through the fence so I moved on. 

 

Google maps does show trails on the land so I think there may be access for hikers. I need to go and confirm this.

 

The caches are "traditional" but require some thinking (and 'special equipment') to solve. Description says "Field Puzzle". D 1.5, T 1.5

 

I'll know more in a day or two. Will update again.

 

Thanks for all the suggestions.

[+Touchstone]

No harm in asking when it's not obvious.  Just for the record, it appears one of the Lackey's/Forum Mods found it recently (must be down that way for a visit), so I'm pretty certain they would/could Archive those Listings pretty much immediately if there was something seriously amiss

[+Lost_not_found]

Update: I was bored and it's a nice day (a little too warm to be doing much outside) so I went and checked out the area.

There IS access to the land. There is a low 'step over' in the fence. Seems to be a few horse trails all over the area. Still has a sign "Obey the rules" and lists about 6 rules.

 

So, had TOTT with me and thought ... why not. Found all 3.

 

Do you think I could find my way back to the car?

 

I'm going to have to figure out how to mark my parking spot as a waypoint or something so I can navigate back to it when I'm done. This time i wasn't too far away so I made it (After walking past where I needed to go)

 

Problem solved for this issue. Thanks to all who replied.

[+cerberus1]

25 minutes ago, Lost_not_found said:

Do you think I could find my way back to the car?

 

I'm going to have to figure out how to mark my parking spot as a waypoint or something so I can navigate back to it when I'm done. This time i wasn't too far away so I made it (After walking past where I needed to go)

 

Congrats on solving your query.   

 

Are you using the geocaching app ? 

If so,   in the cache details page, pick Waypoints.    Tap the "+" sign, and save it with a "to car", To trailhead", or whatever name. 

[+Lost_not_found]

10 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

 

Congrats on solving your query.   

 

Are you using the geocaching app ? 

Thank you. It was a good walk. I've completed my yearly exercise early this year.

 

App? You mean on a smart phone or similar?  No. I'm not even sure what an app is. My cell phone is older than rocks. No camera, no touch screen, no anything. It's a phone, used to make and receive phone calls. Doesn't do anything else. Oh wait, I think it can do text message but without a keyboard it's not easy. (Press '2' three times to get an 'e' )

 

My new toy is a Garmin GPSMAP 64sx. I should be able to mark my starting point and then go to it when I got lost. I could even log my trail but that could result in a longer 'back track' than needed.

 

[+cerberus1]

18 minutes ago, Lost_not_found said:

App? You mean on a smart phone or similar?  No.

 

My new toy is a Garmin GPSMAP 64sx. I should be able to mark my starting point and then go to it when I got lost. I could even log my trail but that could result in a longer 'back track' than needed.

 

Yep.  If you have a mark button, just add a name if you want n done.      

We found the hard way once, when a bit too far in and started bushwhacking.    The old 60csx works the same.

Since, we log mark and type "park" anytime we're walking, and can no longer see the truck.  

 

Edited January 5, 2020 by cerberus1

[+Lost_not_found]

1 minute ago, cerberus1 said:

 

Yep.  If you have a mark button, just add a name if you want n done.      

We found the hard way once, when a bit too far in and started bushwhacking.    The old 60csx works the same.

Well I'll be darned. There IS a "Mark" button. And a "Find".  (Goes to read the manual again)

 

Thanks.

[+Touchstone]

I sometimes do a tracklog on my GPS for such purposes, particularly if the route is rather circuitous and doing a straight line between point A and B is not an option.

[+ras_oscar]

Glad the OP was able to score the find.

 

As a general procedure moving forward, always obey land control signs posted on the property. Use your own common sense. The presence of a cache will IMOHO not provide a positive defense to a trespassing charge.  If it feels creepy ( like a single male adult lurking around a playground filled with toddlers) do it another way, another day., or not at all. No smiley is worth losing your liberty, even for a short period of time.  I had a local cache that I put on my ignore list several years ago because the approach was from a private driveway and I didn't feel comfortable. I was recently reviewing caches in my area and read some recent logs. They mentioned an alternate approach that avoided the private driveway entirely. I was able to use the alternate approach  and score the find. The best approach is not always the direct route.

[+31BMSG]

After my last post I thought I should look at my recreational permit since I'm going to be caching south of Benson in about 10 days, it expired two weeks ago. While renewing the permit I saw this land use map that I thought might be helpful in case you weren't already aware of it, http://gis.azland.gov/webapps/parcel/?loc=-112.0001,33.4071,10&layers=11,2,0

[+niraD]

2 hours ago, ras_oscar said:

The best approach is not always the direct route.

This is a very valuable lesson. Don't just "blindly follow wherever the arrow points". I found a cache where past logs complained about bushwhacking through poison oak, etc., etc., etc., but I was able to stay on the path to within a few feet of the cache. They were probably never more than a couple hundred feet from the trail, but they were following the arrow, rather than navigating to the coordinates.

[+cerberus1]

2 hours ago, ras_oscar said:

 The best approach is not always the direct route.

 

Yep.  

When we take new folks out  (GPSr preloaded with caches we'll do), we intentionally bring them  to areas that have the GPS adding measurement by staying on-trail. 

Many panic that they "did something wrong", not realizing that after you make that loop, another's behind it, and now you're down to a few feet...

[+thebruce0]

I was just thinking too, your first approach might imply there's an issue, but maybe the fence you come up to encloses an area between you and the cache, and you just need to find another way around. It's always worth checking the map(s) to verify as much as possible, before assuming the worst, and asking the CO (possibly meaning coming back another day) is almost always the best choice if ever uncertain

[+ras_oscar]

Trail maps are the best invention since sliced bread. I would encourage everyone to download and use OSM maps, and add trails to the map where they are missing. You can make the call after you have arrived at GZ, and are ready to make the hike out. Turn on track,logs and hike back to the car.  It takes literally 15 minutes to upload a track log to OSM, trace it, tag it and save the tile. And its fun, particularly if you're a data geek like me.

Edited January 6, 2020 by ras_oscar

[+Lost_not_found]

I couldn't agree more. Stay on paths as much as possible and only go 'bushwacking' when there is no other way for the last few yards. This is what I did yesterday. Point to point distance was perhaps a few hundred yards but by following the trail it was closer to (I'm guessing here) a mile. As for the locked gate, again, as soon as I saw it I did look for an alternate route. The fact that I didn't see one.... and my error in not reading the entire cache description ... resulted in this discussion.

 

Also a factor... being old and disabled has forced me to always look for the most direct and easiest way to do anything. That mindset is now easing somewhat. The walk yesterday, although causing much soreness, did feel good.

[+hzoi]

On 1/5/2020 at 7:31 PM, Lost_not_found said:

Update: I was bored and it's a nice day (a little too warm to be doing much outside) so I went and checked out the area.

There IS access to the land. There is a low 'step over' in the fence. Seems to be a few horse trails all over the area. Still has a sign "Obey the rules" and lists about 6 rules.

 

...

 

I'm going to have to figure out how to mark my parking spot as a waypoint or something so I can navigate back to it when I'm done. This time i wasn't too far away so I made it (After walking past where I needed to go)

 

Just to follow up - all three of those caches had parking waypoints with the same coordinates, which would have taken you to that step-over fence, trailhead, and sign, and would have taken care of your second issue of getting you back to the car.  If you used a pocket query or individual GPX files to add those caches to your GPSr, it should have included those parking waypoints for you.

 

Not every cache will come with a parking waypoint, but it's worth checking the description to find out.

[+Lost_not_found]

3 hours ago, hzoi said:

 

Just to follow up - all three of those caches had parking waypoints with the same coordinates, which would have taken you to that step-over fence, trailhead, and sign, and would have taken care of your second issue of getting you back to the car.  If you used a pocket query or individual GPX files to add those caches to your GPSr, it should have included those parking waypoints for you.

 

Not every cache will come with a parking waypoint, but it's worth checking the description to find out.

Yes, i did say my mistake was not reading the description before heading to the cache. In an effort to find another way in I did go to the parking area even without reading the description but still did not see the step-over. 

As for getting back to the car... not sure how to use the extra coords as a waypoint unless I enter them manually. Yes I use pocket query downloaded to an SD card. I have since discovered how to mark a waypoint AFTER getting there so I can navigate back to it, but not how to enter a waypoint to navigate to before getting to it. There are so many trails in that area that even with (point to point) guidance I probably would still have missed the car. In reality, the road was never out of sight so no chance of getting totally off course but I had to go through the fence to get out. I missed the entrance I used to get in by 200 yards.

 

Most important thing, I found all 3 caches and solved the puzzles.

[+hzoi]

41 minutes ago, Lost_not_found said:

As for getting back to the car... not sure how to use the extra coords as a waypoint unless I enter them manually.  Yes I use pocket query downloaded to an SD card. I have since discovered how to mark a waypoint AFTER getting there so I can navigate back to it, but not how to enter a waypoint to navigate to before getting to it.

 

I see you're using a Garmin.  I don't have that particular model, but I used to have a 60CSx.  You should hopefully see waypoints on the map view; here it should show up as a P in a white circle.  For additional waypoints, if you hit the "Find" button, it should give you a list of options to navigate to; one of those should be waypoints.  Another option should be just going to coordinates, and you can punch them in manually.

 

Like any tool, it takes some getting used to, but the more you mess with it, the better you'll get with it.

 

I don't know if your unit is set to show a track map by default.  If it's not, check your manual - it's like a digital trail of breadcumbs, right there on the map.  That function has made my life easier on many occasions - I don't normally bother marking the car, because the unit just leaves a little purple line of where I've been.  Is handy.

 

41 minutes ago, Lost_not_found said:

Most important thing, I found all 3 caches and solved the puzzles.

 

Indeed.  And no snakes!  Not that I found many snakes in Arizona, I think only a couple over the few years I lived there.  I was much better at finding teddy bear cholla.

Edited January 9, 2020 by hzoi

[+Lost_not_found]

39 minutes ago, hzoi said:

 

I see you're using a Garmin.  I don't have that particular model, but I used to have a 60CSx.  You should hopefully see waypoints on the map view; here it should show up as a P in a white circle.  For additional waypoints, if you hit the "Find" button, it should give you a list of options to navigate to; one of those should be waypoints.  Another option should be just going to coordinates, and you can punch them in manually.

 

Like any tool, it takes some getting used to, but the more you mess with it, the better you'll get with it.

 

I don't know if your unit is set to show a track map by default.  If it's not, check your manual - it's like a digital trail of breadcumbs, right there on the map.  That function has made my life easier on many occasions - I don't normally bother marking the car, because the unit just leaves a little purple line of where I've been.  Is handy.

 

 

Indeed.  And no snakes!  Not that I found many snakes in Arizona, I think only a couple over the few years I lived there.  I was much better at finding teddy bear cholla.

I did not see any waypoint on the map. when I hit "go" after selecting the geochache I wanted, I was lead right to the gate on the dirt road. Then I looked for an alternate entry point and drove down the next nearest road while keeping the target location on the map. Once I was as close as I could get I parked in a parking area. 

I'll have to try the "find" button next time I do a cache with additional waypoints. Yes I'm still learning how to use the GPSr. I must say I'm not totally happy with it. It stops navigating several times during a trip (with no warning until I look at the screen and see it not moving). Once I've found a cache and hit "Find next nearest" it sometimes tries to direct me to the one I just found. A few other problems that could just be user error.

 

Anyway, it gets me out of the apartment which is a good thing. Would be nice to have someone riding along but can't have everything.

[+ras_oscar]

On ‎1‎/‎6‎/‎2020 at 1:40 PM, Lost_not_found said:

Also a factor... being old and disabled has forced me to always look for the most direct and easiest way to do anything. That mindset is now easing somewhat. The walk yesterday, although causing much soreness, did feel good.

If you have mobility challenges I'd encourage you to invest in a good set of topographic maps. Game trails and old wagon trails zigzag around for a reason,, They keep as close to the same elevation as possible. Trekking straight up one side of a mountain and down another is shorter horizontally, but almost always wears you out far more then the longer and more level winding route.