Throwdown Etiquette

[+HunterandSamuel]

15 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

 

The Help Center,  then Hide a Cache, then #7 - Ownership after publication.   

Found it!  Thanks. This is what I looked at (the bottom of geocaching.com page):

Careers

Partner With Us

Geocache Hiding Guidelines

Legal

Logo Usage Guidelines

Parks & Police

 

[+kunarion]

18 minutes ago, Michaelcycle said:

In my experience, about 20% of wet or damp logs I encounter are the result of a prior cacher not closing the container properly. People are in such a hurry to get to  the next find that they fail to make sure that the contents are not caught in the seal, the lid is not closed all the way around, the log is not rolled tight and inserted into the bison cap first and so on.

 

That happens to my caches a lot.  People open the container in the rain, or when the container or just its lid is wet, and now the stuff inside gets wet.  The container seals the water in.  The next finder adds more water.  Nobody says a thing until the contents are a huge mess. I check my caches without waiting for "maintenance logs", because drying a slightly moist log sheet can save me a lot of time later.

 

And I find even containers that don't seal well, that hold water inside.  They don't dry out.  The finders sometimes add ziplock bags that cause soaked items to stay soaked longer.  And the throwdowns are pill bottles, with no water consideration.

I found a water-filled "plastic jar" cache this weekend and resisted adding a "dry log in a ziplock bag".  The other previously added logs and bags are all soaked, and it's been like that for maybe a couple of years.  Time for NM for sure.

 

 

Edited December 9, 2019 by kunarion

[+HunterandSamuel]

6 minutes ago, L0ne.R said:

 

I'm the opposite. As a cache owner (a total of 60+ over 15+ years), I view the NM log as an important tool to keep on top of my caches and keep them looking good for the next finders. An NM means the finder thinks there's enough of a problem that I should go have a look (maybe bring some supplies with me). 

After maintaining your cache I see in the link Cerberus1 gave me that you can remove the NM?

[+HunterandSamuel]

Remove the “Needs Maintenance” icon

If you don't remove the "Needs Maintenance" attribute it will affect the Health Score of your cache. Follow these steps to remove the "Needs Maintenance" attribute:

1. Temporarily disable your cache if maintenance will take some time.
2. Maintain your cache. Find out how!
3. Select Log geocache on your cache page.
4. Select Owner maintenance as the log type.
5. If you disabled your cache, enable it.

Thank you for being a responsible cache owner!

[+L0ne.R]

18 hours ago, HunterandSamuel said:

After maintaining your cache I see in the link Cerberus1 gave me that you can remove the NM?

 

Yes. After an owner checks their cache and does appropriate maintenance, they log an Owner Maintenance log. 

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by L0ne.R
typo

[+thebruce0]

41 minutes ago, MartyBartfast said:

personally I think there is no place for replacing caches unless agreed with the CO.

 

And even then the CO should plan a followup visit to verify first hand that the cache is in proper findable condition. (also that is indeed their agreed-upon responsibility when listing their geocache on gc.com)

 

29 minutes ago, HunterandSamuel said:

You are right. It would make me feel like we don't take care of our caches, that we are negligent.

 

You really shouldn't feel that way. If you are pro-active, that's great, but negligence should only be inferred from caches where NM logs go unaddressed, especially when followed by more DNFs, and even Reviewer Notes, or consequential actions. A NM by itself should never be seen as a black mark against the owner, as explained above.

You'd be seen as a responsible and attentive CO if you quickly address maintenance issues (which are not inherently related to the quality of your cache) and re-enable them for people to find in first-hand verified findable condition. That's a good CO

 

I'd much prefer to see a cache with NM logs, followed by OM logs, even if there are DNFs before the NM.  That tells me a few things, but mainly, the CO cares about their cache.  The reasons for the DNFs and NM I'd have to read to determine, but it could be anything from an amazing cache in a difficult location, to an unoptimal container requiring regular maintenance that the CO nonetheless greatly cares about

Edited December 9, 2019 by thebruce0

[+HunterandSamuel]

19 minutes ago, IceColdUK said:

I always struggle to find things in the Help Centre - even when I know I’ve already seen it.

 

This is a great example.  Why should a new cacher (i.e. seeker) be expected to read help on hiding a cache to find out something like this?

I just had trouble finding it again! Had to go back to Cerberus1's  post. I wondered that too. I read what I thought were the guidelines, never thought to click on "Help Center". It should be titled "Guidelines and Help Center" in my opinion.

[+CAVinoGal]

23 minutes ago, HunterandSamuel said:

34 minutes ago, MartyBartfast said:

This suggests that you see an NM as some sort of black mark against you - it isn't it's just a simple statement of fact so don't take them to heart and don't feel bad about using them

• You are right. It would make me feel like we don't take care of our caches, that we are negligent. We work hard at taking care of them and receive many compliments. That's wonderful!  After the last snow fall of 18", we went to all our cache hides and uncovered them (except for the lamp posts, snow banks are too high). We then made sure to write a note letting future finders know that they are ready to find after the snowfall. And this is exceptional!  And I would venture to say, NOT the norm!

 

Not all CO's are as conscientious as you, and not all hides are as easily checked on as yours apparently are. I have a few that I can walk to, and check regularly on my walks around the neighborhood.  Others are more of a drive, and I don't visit them unless a log indicates attention is needed or I happen to be in the area and I have time to stop by - I appreciate the NM in those cases! 

 

Having that logged on one of your caches is NOT saying you are negligent.  Things happen in nature that you have no control over.  Other cachers, critters, Mother Nature can all change a hide for the worse.  The NM just alerts you to a potential problem - go check it out, fix it if needed, then log the OM so others (and GS, and the CHS algorithm) know you have dealt with it and the cache is viable.  You probably don't need to disable and re-enable the cache unless you think/know it's out of commission for a time.

[+HunterandSamuel]

8 minutes ago, L0ne.R said:

 

Yes. After an owner checks their cache and does appropriate maintenance, the log an Owner Maintenance log. 

 

Okay, this now makes sense. NM doesn't seem so bad now, like a black mark on your reputation in the geo-community. It actually makes you look like a responsible geocacher when "owner maintenance" is logged. Thanks so much.

[+HunterandSamuel]

11 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

 

And even then the CO should plan a followup visit to verify first hand that the cache is in proper findable condition. (also that is indeed their agreed-upon responsibility when listing their geocache on gc.com)

 

 

You really shouldn't feel that way. If you are pro-active, that's great, but negligence should only be inferred from cache where NM logs go unaddressed, especially when followed by more DNFs, and even Reviewer Notes or consequential action. A NM by itself should never be seen as a black mark against the owner, as explained above.

You'd be seen as a responsible and attentive CO if you quickly address maintenance issues (where are not fundamentally related to the quality of your cache) and re-enable them for people to find in verified first-hand findable condition. That's a good CO

 

I'd much prefer to see a cache with NM logs, followed by OM logs, even if there are DNFs before the NM.  That tells me a few things, but mainly, the CO cares about their cache.  The reasons for the DNFs and NM I'd have to read to determine, but it could be anything from an amazing cache in a difficult location, to an unoptimal container requiring regular maintenance that the CO nonetheless greatly cares about

Yes, I see that now and feel better about NMs. You all have been great!

[+HunterandSamuel]

7 minutes ago, CAVinoGal said:

 

Not all CO's are as conscientious as you, and not all hides are as easily checked on as yours apparently are. I have a few that I can walk to, and check regularly on my walks around the neighborhood.  Others are more of a drive, and I don't visit them unless a log indicates attention is needed or I happen to be in the area and I have time to stop by - I appreciate the NM in those cases! 

 

Having that logged on one of your caches is NOT saying you are negligent.  Things happen in nature that you have no control over.  Other cachers, critters, Mother Nature can all change a hide for the worse.  The NM just alerts you to a potential problem - go check it out, fix it if needed, then log the OM so others (and GS, and the CHS algorithm) know you have dealt with it and the cache is viable.  You probably don't need to disable and re-enable the cache unless you think/know it's out of commission for a time.

Thanks so much for the compliments. What I love about our hides and maintaining them...it keeps us active in the outdoors, just as geocaching does. Our hides are in our hometown so are easy to keep an eye on. We won't do hides in other towns or cities because we then feel we won't be able to maintain them the way we feel they should be although there are geocachers who have hides in many towns and even States but keep them well maintained. I personally would find it overwhelming.

[+kunarion]

2 hours ago, HunterandSamuel said:

Depending on the reason why they did it.  And when being informed it was discouraged in the guidelines, never doing it again. By the way, "throwdowns" are not in the guidelines I read. It's the first time I've hear of it. But I do appreciate the link Cerberus1 gave me. My new geocache promise: "On my honor I will do my best To do my duty to Geocaching and my geocache community and to obey the Geocaching.com guidelines; To help other cachers at all times; To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake to solve those puzzles."

 

I mainly hunt caches in places that seem pretty cool, or at least it's places I return to frequently anyway.  So I discover a fun new place, and I don't mind going back.  So when I found a completely mushy, soaked Geocache this weekend, I made a DNF log.  I didn't place a "dry log" within that mess.  I logged NM.  I stated that I shall return when it's repaired.  It might instead become archived, and a new cache with a better container might be placed.  It's a cool place, so a well-maintained cache could be there.  If instead I placed a dry log in a baggie, it will be wet again like the other baggies.  It just takes longer for the action to occur, whatever that future action may be.

 

I also have extra logs, ziplock bags, O-rings, glue, duct tape, wire and cord, and tools.  This is to keep my own caches in great shape.  But in special circumstances, I'll do a repair on a friends cache.  But I'm not the Geocache Fairy.  So don't expect me keep your cache viable. That's on you.

 

 

Edited December 9, 2019 by kunarion

[+HunterandSamuel]

4 minutes ago, kunarion said:

 

I also have extra logs, ziplock bags, O-rings, glue, duct tape, wire and cord, and tools.  This is to keep my own caches in great shape.  But in special circumstances, I'll do a repair on a friends cache.  But I'm not the Geocache Fairy.  So don't expect me keep your cache viable. That's on you.

 

 

LOL Many geocachers in my area are close geo-friends and do help out each other. Many I haven't even met but know through messaging. They are all wonderful, some have over 14,000 finds! My husband and I went shopping for a "geocache" back pack last year. It is now so stocked full of supplies, swag, camo duct tape, etc, it's too heavy to carry while geocaching. lol So when out caching, we carry a smaller bag and leave the back pack in the car. Geocaching is a wonderful addictive "sport".

[+cerberus1]

1 hour ago, HunterandSamuel said:

Found it!  Thanks. This is what I looked at (the bottom of geocaching.com page):

Careers

Partner With Us

Geocache Hiding Guidelines

Legal

Logo Usage Guidelines

Parks & Police

 

Are you using a phone ?   It was my understanding that Geocaching 101 was presented to all new people upon entering the hobby, even on phones.

It was a big deal after so few understood how the hobby's even played.  Is that not happening now ?

Notice that "Help Center" is to the right of your example.  Maybe it's just me, but I always thought that "help"  on  any  website meant just that.

 -  I think it's really odd that "Hiding Guidelines" is even there...

 

[+HunterandSamuel]

16 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

 

Are you using a phone ?   It was my understanding that Geocaching 101 was presented to all new people upon entering the hobby, even on phones.

It was a big deal after so few understood how the hobby's even played.  Is that not happening now ?

Notice that "Help Center" is to the right of your example.  Maybe it's just me, but I always thought that "help"  on  any  website meant just that.

 -  I think it's really odd that "Hiding Guidelines" is even there...

 

Sure,  "help" means "help". I didn't need help. "Help Center" to me is not "Guidelines".  It's in case you need "help". I read the guidelines and watched the videos. The "help" and advice I got was from other geocachers when asked. I registered on my home computer, not my cell. Geocache 101was not presented to me. If you feel strongly about this then you should start a new topic thread. It will be helpful to many just starting out.

[+barefootjeff]

2 hours ago, L0ne.R said:

I'm the opposite. As a cache owner (a total of 60+ over 15+ years), I view the NM log as an important tool to keep on top of my caches and keep them looking good for the next finders. An NM means the finder thinks there's enough of a problem that I should go have a look (maybe bring some supplies with me). 

 

Yep, me too. There have been occasions when I wished someone would have logged an NM rather than making some oblique hint to a possible problem in the fourth or fifth paragraph of their log, as I would have been on top of it a lot sooner.

[+HunterandSamuel]

I just want to add. It seems that a few geocachers are so focused on the "rules and regulations", which is fine and well, but that takes away from the sport of geocaching when so rigidly expressed. I don't see this in my area, thankfully.  

[+cerberus1]

18 minutes ago, HunterandSamuel said:

I just want to add. It seems that a few geocachers are so focused on the "rules and regulations", which is fine and well, but that takes away from the sport of geocaching when so rigidly expressed. I don't see this in my area, thankfully.  

 

That's too bad.  Do you know of any game that doesn't have rules ?  

 

We have only a couple rules, most are guidelines, and we've personally seen instances of what happens when those are bypassed by many.

Moving caches gone is one example ...

 

Edited December 9, 2019 by cerberus1

[+thebruce0]

Yep, the few rules and guidelines are in place because of almost 20 years of the hobby taking place worldwide. They're not there to make the game less fun, they're they because things people did (and still want to do) actually make the game less fun for a majority of people - or HQ has been led to be required to implement some regulations.  And most are guidelines because they're not blanket responses to things that are universally bad, but moreso that certain aspects of people's actions can (and most likely) have a negative effect -- but not all the time. So there's some wiggle room for HQ and reviewers to make judgment calls.

 

In short, the guidelines paint a picture of the spirit of the hobby - the way it should be enjoyed, and the way it encouraged to be enjoyed. They can occasionally be bent or excepted, within good reason, and in 20 years that's how the hobby has evolved for the best general enjoyment worldwide. And it'll continue to evolve!

[+HunterandSamuel]

12 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

 

That's too bad.  Do you know of any game that doesn't have rules ?  

 

We have only a couple rules, most are guidelines, and we've personally seen instances of what happens when those are bypassed by many.

Moving caches gone is one example ...

 

You need to reread what I said.

[+HunterandSamuel]

7 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

Yep, the few rules and guidelines are in place because of almost 20 years of the hobby taking place worldwide. They're not there to make the game less fun, they're they because things people did (and still want to do) actually make the game less fun for a majority of people - or HQ has been led to be required to implement some regulations.  And most are guidelines because they're not blanket responses to things that are universally bad, but moreso that certain aspects of people's actions can (and most likely) have a negative effect -- but not all the time. So there's some wiggle room for HQ and reviewers to make judgment calls.

 

In short, the guidelines paint a picture of the spirit of the hobby - the way it should be enjoyed, and the way it encouraged to be enjoyed. They can occasionally be bent or excepted, within good reason, and in 20 years that's how the hobby has evolved for the best general enjoyment worldwide. And it'll continue to evolve!

I'll repeat: It seems that a few geocachers are so focused on the "rules and regulations", which is fine and well, but that takes away from the sport of geocaching when so rigidly expressed. I don't see this in my area, thankfully.

[+HunterandSamuel]

1 hour ago, HunterandSamuel said:

Sure,  "help" means "help". I didn't need help. "Help Center" to me is not "Guidelines".  It's in case you need "help". I read the guidelines and watched the videos. The "help" and advice I got was from other geocachers when asked. I registered on my home computer, not my cell. Geocache 101was not presented to me. If you feel strongly about this then you should start a new topic thread. It will be helpful to many just starting out.

Cerberus1, I noticed you didn't' respond to this. Any comment? I came here to learn and express myself.  You seem to be someone that  likes to be in charge.

[+arisoft]

35 minutes ago, HunterandSamuel said:

I just want to add. It seems that a few geocachers are so focused on the "rules and regulations", which is fine and well, but that takes away from the sport of geocaching when so rigidly expressed. I don't see this in my area, thankfully.  

 

Only few are (like me) and some of them also tend to make their own rules as you may have seen in this thread

 

To understand this throwdown issue, it is important to understand why unsolicited caches are not a good idea. There are geocachers who put a new container instead of DNF, only to get a find without caring about consequences and there are other geocachers who just want to be helpful. We can't stop the first group and it is important that CO makes an additional check if some of them have visited the cache, because there might be more than one container.

[+dprovan]

33 minutes ago, HunterandSamuel said:

I'll repeat: It seems that a few geocachers are so focused on the "rules and regulations", which is fine and well, but that takes away from the sport of geocaching when so rigidly expressed. I don't see this in my area, thankfully.

I agree with you. A lot of this is a lot easier in practice and many of the guidelines can be ignored quite frequently. But I also give some slack to the people that support the rules more rigidly. The problem is that many people hear, "They're guidelines, so you can bend them now and again," and think that means they can do whatever they want.

 

As it happens, the container replacement issue has elements that make it a bigger practical problem. There are caches that shouldn't be continued, CO's that shouldn't be helped, and people leaving throwdowns indiscriminately feel good about "helping the CO" when all they're really doing it keeping a bad cache on the books to everyone's detriment. So while I don't want to encourage it, talking about throwdowns as absolutely bad has its advantages, especially if after the black and white line has been drawn, one can understand exceptions such as interacting with a CO to replace a missing container to their specifications.

 

As far as I know, this only happens in the forums. From what I've seen, everyone in my area is much more practical about it, and containers are regularly replaced after someone calls the CO and confirms it's missing. Then they add something like "replaced after talking to the CO" in their logs.

Edited December 9, 2019 by dprovan

[+barefootjeff]

27 minutes ago, HunterandSamuel said:

I'll repeat: It seems that a few geocachers are so focused on the "rules and regulations", which is fine and well, but that takes away from the sport of geocaching when so rigidly expressed. I don't see this in my area, thankfully.

 

In a global game there are always trade-offs. Informal arrangements work fine in small communities where everyone knows everyone else and gets along well, but can break down badly in large cities or if there are a few bad apples, leading to situations like those LOne.R encounters. And there are always going to be grey areas no matter how detailed the official guidelines are and each case needs to be judged on its merits and with a good dose of common sense.

[+arisoft]

5 minutes ago, dprovan said:

There are caches that shouldn't be continued, CO's that shouldn't be helped

 

I would like to hear more about COs who shouldn't be helped. Do we have a list of them?

 

[+coachstahly]

12 hours ago, arisoft said:

 

I would like to hear more about COs who shouldn't be helped. Do we have a list of them?

 

 

You don't need a list of them.  All you need to do is look at a CO's caches to see how many ignored NM logs there are (or throwdowns dropped by others with no follow up) or any sort of cache description that lets seekers know that any and all maintenance they might be willing to perform is much appreciated.  Those are, in many cases, COs who expect others to do their maintenance instead of taking care of it themselves.  Why should we encourage these types of COs?  Why should we help COs who expect/hope others will maintain their caches when it's not our responsibility?  

 

I'm not so rigid that I won't help out my fellow cachers by offering some occasional help, but I'm not going to prop up someone's cache who has chosen to ignore maintenance needs or chosen a community-based maintenance plan.  I'm not averse to drying out a damp log or replacing a full log or wiping down the inside of a container when the container is in good shape and the CO has shown a propensity for taking care of their caches.  When I travel to areas where I don't know the local cachers, I'll usually limit my maintenance because I don't know the local community as well as I know my own community.  What we do may or may not be appreciated by a different community so I'm less likely to provide the same type of help.

[+arisoft]

24 minutes ago, coachstahly said:

 

I'm not so rigid that I won't help out my fellow cachers by offering some occasional help

 

How do you know that the next finder is one of your friends?

Edited December 10, 2019 by arisoft

[+coachstahly]

28 minutes ago, arisoft said:

 

How do you know that the next finder is one of your friends?

 

The help offered is primarily beneficial to the CO (whom I know) rather than the next finder.  One of the ancillary side effects of that help is that the next cacher, regardless of whether or not they are a friend of mine, finds a cache in a slightly better state than when I found it.

[+arisoft]

26 minutes ago, coachstahly said:

 

The help offered is primarily beneficial to the CO (whom I know) rather than the next finder.  One of the ancillary side effects of that help is that the next cacher, regardless of whether or not they are a friend of mine, finds a cache in a slightly better state than when I found it.

 

I am trying to be helpful for the next finder.

 

Frankly, I have helped a CO once. The cache was deep in the woods, a big splitted log with a broken mechanism. I could not open the cache and sign it. Instead, I posted a DNF and brought the massive cache to the cache owner's front door to be fixed. In that case it was inevitable that the CO must visit the cache site after my "throwdown"

Edited December 10, 2019 by arisoft

[+HunterandSamuel]

16 hours ago, arisoft said:

 

Only few are (like me) and some of them also tend to make their own rules as you may have seen in this thread

 

To understand this throwdown issue, it is important to understand why unsolicited caches are not a good idea. There are geocachers who put a new container instead of DNF, only to get a find without caring about consequences and there are other geocachers who just want to be helpful. We can't stop the first group and it is important that CO makes an additional check if some of them have visited the cache, because there might be more than one container.

What I was also trying to say is that throwdowns to not seem to in violation of Geocaching.com policies. It is "strongly discouraged" the guidelines stated.  But I now understand why they are strongly discouraged, thanks to this forum. It makes sense. But it doesn't seem to be a strict "rule". That's when rigid comes into play, in my opinion.  I did read awhile ago logs of a hide saying there are two cache containers so they signed both. This is a fine example of a throwdown mistake. Now, when we hiked in the forest searching for a cache, we found the cache so definitely deserved logging a find. The cache was in bad shape and unhealthy for cachers to touch, especially children. We were visiting family in the area so put together a water tight  camo lock n lock with lots of new swag and a log & pencil and threw away the nasty cache. Although we did notify the owner about the condition of his/her cache and that we replaced it, we never heard back and I see in his profile he/she last logged into Geocaching.com in 2017. It's such a beautiful area, we wanted to keep it going for others to find and enjoy the forest. Our motive was not being selfish but for future cachers to enjoy as much as we did. The other cache that we replaced was declared missing but was also not to gain a find point but to keep it going for future cachers to find (14 has found it since our replacement). But in this case...it is a throwdown and discouraged...we now know this. We did list it as a found but since this debate it's been on my mind to take back the found, delete the log.

[+HunterandSamuel]

16 hours ago, arisoft said:

 

I would like to hear more about COs who shouldn't be helped. Do we have a list of them?

 

That is an interesting question. I'm thinking, and I see this on the New York thruway, people who live 1 or 2 States over, hide caches at service stations. How do the COs maintain it, do they deserve help by passerby's traveling? One cache we found was in bad shape and it received a few logs stating so. We did wrap camo tape around the tube to keep the magnet from falling off.

[+thebruce0]

On this same topic, last night I found a 'regular' sized cache, which I knew was iffy since it was one of those fake crows people cut a hole in to hide a container. There was a DNF (by a new cacher) and reports of bad condition.

I did find it, and the hole was open with no container; the crow was open to the elements, log sheets inside soaking wet if not a pulp, with leaves and decaying wood from the stump inside, plus probably some insect nest remnants. It was disgusting. No one had posted a NM. Previous finder had added a clean scrap paper in one of the swaggy items inside that had room to hold something. Conveniently it was dry and signable. But as a courtesy mainly to followup finders and partly to the owner, I cleaned it out of the gunk and unsalvagable log papers, removed playdough, and generally cleaned it up a bit. I put the dry sheet in a baggy and into a film can (about the best I had - fairly standard for a cheap micro and definitely better than current) and set it all back in the crow in place. I didn't log a NM because IMO it's in decent enough condition now but noted in the log that it can use some TLC.

Given multiple factors, I felt that was a reasonable fixup, and in this case not propping up a bad cache, and hopefully giving it enough umph to last for some time more. The CO is not one I recognize locally, with only a few finds, and the cache seems to be geared for children (thus in dire need of immediate cleanup).  IF there was no crow and only log sheets, I'd have posted a NM, not replacing the log or container (that would be a throwdown, imo, since I'd have had no idea what the initial intent or style of the hide should have been) and possibly log a find accepting if the CO would decide to deny it.

 

IMO there is no blanket rule about helping to maintain a cache for a CO - there are strong guidelines which define the spirit of the practice, and good guidelines to adopt on principle because they came about for specific reasons, but a CO agrees to responsibilities they must adhere to to be considered a cache owner in good standing (those are rules, and COs can face consequences for shirking their responsibilities). As a cache finder though, each case we come across needs to be judged independently whether we feel it is proper and acceptable to help clean up, or report as needing maintenance (or both), and what would constitute a "throwdown".

 

Yet in every case, the CO should be able to know what the state of their cache is so they can make the final decision or visitation to confirm that their cache is in good findable condition.

Edited December 10, 2019 by thebruce0

[+31BMSG]

14 minutes ago, HunterandSamuel said:

What I was also trying to say is that throwdowns to not seem to in violation of Geocaching.com policies. It is "strongly discouraged" the guidelines stated.  But I now understand why they are strongly discouraged, thanks to this forum. It makes sense. But it doesn't seem to be a strict "rule". That's when rigid comes into play, in my opinion.  I did read awhile ago logs of a hide saying there are two cache containers so they signed both. This is a fine example of a throwdown mistake. Now, when we hiked in the forest searching for a cache, we found the cache so definitely deserved logging a find. The cache was in bad shape and unhealthy for cachers to touch, especially children. We were visiting family in the area so put together a water tight  camo lock n lock with lots of new swag and a log & pencil and threw away the nasty cache. Although we did notify the owner about the condition of his/her cache and that we replaced it, we never heard back and I see in his profile he/she last logged into Geocaching.com in 2017. It's such a beautiful area, we wanted to keep it going for others to find and enjoy the forest. Our motive was not being selfish but for future cachers to enjoy as much as we did. The other cache that we replaced was declared missing but was also not to gain a find point but to keep it going for future cachers to find (14 has found it since our replacement). But in this case...it is a throwdown and discouraged...we now know this. We did list it as a found but since this debate it's been on my mind to take back the found, delete the log.

I'm sure your intentions were good when you left the lock and lock but who is now responsible for maintaining that new container, contents, and web page? Remember that maintaining the web page is also part of the CO responsibility. I would have logged a NM or possibly a NA and let the process begin, if the CO cared they would do something about their cache, if they didn't care or no longer active it will eventually get archived with that spot opened up to for a potentially responsible CO to place a cache. There are a lot of caches that are being propped up when archival would allow a new cache to be placed.

[+HunterandSamuel]

9 minutes ago, 31BMSG said:

I'm sure your intentions were good when you left the lock and lock but who is now responsible for maintaining that new container, contents, and web page? Remember that maintaining the web page is also part of the CO responsibility. I would have logged a NM or possibly a NA and let the process begin, if the CO cared they would do something about their cache, if they didn't care or no longer active it will eventually get archived with that spot opened up to for a potentially responsible CO to place a cache. There are a lot of caches that are being propped up when archival would allow a new cache to be placed.

I understand and thought of that too. In this particular State forest, this was the only cache hide and there are lots of locations to hide others so we weren't taking away potential hides from cachers.  I guess that's why it was important to keep it active and there was a plead from another geocacher for someone to help it out because the area was so beautiful. As for maintaining it, I'm hoping the next cacher will or my relative who lives down the road a few miles can check on it. Or just let it be archived if gone missing. I don't know but I do know the good feelings it gave us to replace this cache for others to find. A kind of pay it forward thing. Maybe in a few years we'll get burned out helping others and stop. lol Thanks for your reply!

[+31BMSG]

11 minutes ago, HunterandSamuel said:

I understand and thought of that too. In this particular State forest, this was the only cache hide and there are lots of locations to hide others so we weren't taking away potential hides from cachers.  I guess that's why it was important to keep it active and there was a plead from another geocacher for someone to help it out because the area was so beautiful. As for maintaining it, I'm hoping the next cacher will or my relative who lives down the road a few miles can check on it. Or just let it be archived if gone missing. I don't know but I do know the good feelings it gave us to replace this cache for others to find. A kind of pay it forward thing. Maybe in a few years we'll get burned out helping others and stop. lol Thanks for your reply!

What happens if something happens at the cache location and the container has to be moved 150' in another direction, who will update the coordinates on the web page? If no one does here's another wild goose chase cache with bad coordinates. It's normal to get attached to things that are familiar but sometimes it's better to let the old and worn out go in order to let something better (hopefully) take it's place.

 

Edit to add: If a cache is archived it doesn't take away from a person's total hide count.

Edited December 10, 2019 by 31BMSG

[+TeamRabbitRun]

19 hours ago, HunterandSamuel said:

Sure,  "help" means "help". I didn't need help. "Help Center" to me is not "Guidelines".  It's in case you need "help". I read the guidelines and watched the videos. The "help" and advice I got was from other geocachers when asked. I registered on my home computer, not my cell. Geocache 101was not presented to me. If you feel strongly about this then you should start a new topic thread. It will be helpful to many just starting out.

 

If you open any piece of software and want to know how to do something, you click "Help".

Why is this different?

I see any "Help Center" as the place that holds all the information I need to know.

[+HunterandSamuel]

Speaking of DNFs or NMs, we have a great reviewer in our State who is new and searching for cache hides with a list of DNFs and NMs. She is giving the OCs a chance to fix the problem or it will be archived for others to enjoy a hide. I never saw this before, only when cachers report to the reviewer about NMs and DTFs are being ignored by a OC. It's kind of like cleaning house.

[+Max and 99]

2 minutes ago, HunterandSamuel said:

Speaking of DNFs or NMs, we have a great reviewer in our State who is new and searching for cache hides with a list of DNFs and NMs. She is giving the OCs a chance to fix the problem or it will be archived for others to enjoy a hide. I never saw this before, only when cachers report to the reviewer about NMs and DTFs are being ignored by a OC. It's kind of like cleaning house.

Common in my area.

[+HunterandSamuel]

10 minutes ago, 31BMSG said:

What happens if something happens at the cache location and the container has to be moved 150' in another direction, who will update the coordinates on the web page? If no one does here's another wild goose chase cache with bad coordinates. It's normal to get attached to things that are familiar but sometimes it's better to let the old and worn out go in order to let something better (hopefully) take it's place.

 

Edit to add: If a cache is archived it doesn't take away from a person's total hide count.

I'm confident this location, hidden behind a tree in the forest...will be there a few more hundred years. If it's moved and eventually archived...it's out of my hands. At least I gave it a chance to live another day. lol  Speaking of not losing a total hide count if archived, we also don't lose a find count. A tip. Look through your finds now and then, if a cache has been archived and you had given it a favorite point in the past, you can take back the favorite point to give to another hide!

[+HunterandSamuel]

9 minutes ago, TeamRabbitRun said:

 

If you open any piece of software and want to know how to do something, you click "Help".

Why is this different?

I see any "Help Center" as the place that holds all the information I need to know.

Big difference in my opinion. Because I wasn't seeking "help". Never clicked on that link because I didn't know it was actually a guideline/rules/regulations section.  When I shop online..."Help" is also there and is usually a number to call or an email to the company or chat with a reprehensive. Nothing about guidelines. If a help section is also a guideline section...then it should read "Guidelines and Help". But geeze, now I know.

[+TeamRabbitRun]

Just now, HunterandSamuel said:

Big difference in my opinion. Because I wasn't seeking "help". Never clicked on that link because I didn't know it was actually a guideline/rules/regulations section.  When I shop online..."Help" is also there and is usually a number to call or an email to the company or chat with a reprehensive. Nothing about guidelines. If a help section is also a guideline section...then it should read "Guidelines and Help". But geeze, now I know.

 

If I'm in Microsoft Word and I want to find out how to change my margins, I click "Help".

[+L0ne.R]

14 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

Common in my area.

Same in our area.

[+cerberus1]

5 minutes ago, HunterandSamuel said:

.A tip. Look through your finds now and then, if a cache has been archived and you had given it a favorite point in the past, you can take back the favorite point to give to another hide!

 

Off-topic to this thread, but when FPs came out in 2010 and we received ours , we gave them to caches that were already long-archived.

They were our favorites.   That isn't going to change just because they're no longer in play...     

[+Max and 99]

9 minutes ago, HunterandSamuel said:

. A tip. Look through your finds now and then, if a cache has been archived and you had given it a favorite point in the past, you can take back the favorite point to give to another hide

That's discussed here.

 

Why don't you give Favorites?

[+HunterandSamuel]

Just now, TeamRabbitRun said:

 

If I'm in Microsoft Word and I want to find out how to change my margins, I click "Help".

Sure. If you want to know how to change your margins. Like I said...I wasn't looking for "help".

[+HunterandSamuel]

3 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

 

Off-topic to this thread, but when FPs came out in 2010 and we received ours , we gave them to caches that were already long-archived.

They were our favorites.   That isn't going to change just because they're no longer in play...     

Quote

That's a nice thing to do. For me, not having a high count of finds yet, I don't get too many favorites to hand out so took back my favorites from archived caches. lol

 

 

[+HunterandSamuel]

5 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

That's discussed here.

 

Why don't you give Favorites?

Thanks for the link. 209 messages! I love giving out favorites, especially to children who planted their first cache. It gives them a sense of pride and keeps them active in geocaching. I just wish we could be awarded a favorite for every 5 caches we find, instead of 10!

[+Touchstone]

9 minutes ago, HunterandSamuel said:

Big difference in my opinion. Because I wasn't seeking "help". Never clicked on that link because I didn't know it was actually a guideline/rules/regulations section.  

More of a clarification section, to expand on some topics, in order to keep the already lengthy Guidelines as brief as possible.  I counted over 2 dozen links within the Guidelines that lead directly to expanded relevant topics in the Help Center.  It's hard to imagine someone so steeped in the Guidelines as yourself hadn't noticed that.

[+HunterandSamuel]

2 minutes ago, Touchstone said:

  It's hard to imagine someone so steeped in the Guidelines as yourself hadn't noticed that.

You'll get over it.