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Jacobthefox

Question about Multi-Caches

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Hello! So I'm new to geocaching and want to know exactly how these multi-caches work. There are virtual caches and then the one physical, to be able to log it, do I need to add "waypoints" at the co-ordinates of the virtual caches then go to them, or if I already know the position of the final cache could I simply go straight to it?

 

I'm asking as I am researching all the questions and finding co-ordinates for a few multi-caches, and for the two that I already have researched I've already got the co-ordinates for the final cache, as well as the virtual caches.

 

Thanks in advace,

Jacob. 

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Multi caches can have either Physical Stages or Virtual Stages.  All Multi caches must include a Final cache at the end of the hunt (presumably after you'.ve found all the intermediate Stages) that includes a logbook and a container.

 

There is no requirement to find all the Stages.  If you've already figured out where the Final cache is located, you can simply go to the Final, sign the logbook and claim your Find on the Listing page.

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Here it'd be rare that "research" on any-two multis would bring up answers to their finals.  We have found a few in field though...    :)

Some believe that going straight to the final isn't "in the spirit of the game", but as Touchstone says, sign the log and you're good. 

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10 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

Here it'd be rare that "research" on any-two multis would bring up answers to their finals.

 

Easy enough if they only require projection.

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Thanks everybody! Just wanted to make sure it wasn't against any rules I wasn't aware of. Most of the multi-caches around me just involve questions about things that can be easily googled, then some sort of method to translate it to co-ordinates.

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2 hours ago, Jacobthefox said:

Most of the multi-caches around me just involve questions about things that can be easily googled, then some sort of method to translate it to co-ordinates.

 

What you were saying seemed more like a mystery/puzzle cache to me, so looked at a couple near your find, and they're unusual.    :)

Each stage called a "Virtual cache" with hints to "fill-in" coordinates to each stage on the cache page. 

Never did any like that, most we've done might have a hint to stages, but without actual coordinates.

Fun I bet.

 

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5 hours ago, Touchstone said:

Multi caches can have either Physical Stages or Virtual Stages.  All Multi caches must include a Final cache at the end of the hunt (presumably after you'.ve found all the intermediate Stages) that includes a logbook and a container.

 

There is no requirement to find all the Stages.  If you've already figured out where the Final cache is located, you can simply go to the Final, sign the logbook and claim your Find on the Listing page.

 

I'm up to six or seven multis where I've found the final without finding one of earlier stages.  Find cache.  Sign log.  Log on-line,

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Jacobthefox said:

I'm asking as I am researching all the questions and finding co-ordinates for a few multi-caches, and for the two that I already have researched I've already got the co-ordinates for the final cache, as well as the virtual caches.

 

There is one important difference between multi-caches and mystery caches. A multi-cache starts always from the posted coordinates. There must be a reason to go there and find something or gather information. Another key difference between Mystery and Multi-Caches is that Mystery Caches require additional research that goes beyond reading the cache page. Multi-cache should be able to find using a paper copy of the cache description and a GPS receiver.

Edited by arisoft
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4 hours ago, Jacobthefox said:

Most of the multi-caches around me just involve questions about things that can be easily googled, then some sort of method to translate it to co-ordinates.

 

Yeah many COs put out caches without thinking about how easy it may be to do without going to the locations as they intend. But, some COs don't care, others do but don't realize they can't control if people do that.  As a cache finder though, you can choose whether you want to just go to the fainl if you're able to couch-solve, or if you want to do the cache as the CO intended anyway. Personally, the vast majority of them I prefer to do as the CO intended, typically because there's something neat the stage(s) I dno't want to miss - it's part of the experience, after all.

 

Occasionally a multi or mystery require getting a number of a random sign or something, and in those cases if I'm with someone who's got that info I don't really have any qualms about 'missing' such a stage. But if I find out after that I missed something really cool, I'll drop it on a list of caches I'll want to do/check out properly.

 

As a CO I'd try to avoid just putting out a multi with a 'technicality' - that is, placing a cache but making an extra stage with some mundane info-gather to make it an offset. Those aren't generally fun for anyone, and more often don't discourage people from coordinatte-sharing.

 

 

In short, if you make a multi or a mystery, try to make the stages fun or interesting; encourage people to want to do the whole thing as you intend! That'll be a step towards dissuading the 'cheating' attitude of people googling for answers or using street view and whatnot. :)

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2 hours ago, arisoft said:

There is one important difference between multi-caches and mystery caches. A multi-cache starts always from the posted coordinates. The must be a reason to go there and find something or gather information. Another key difference between Mystery and Multi-Caches is that Mystery Caches require additional research that goes beyond reading the cache page. Multi-cache should be able to find using a paper copy of the cache description and a GPS receiver.

 

Neither of these descriptions are very accurate.

 

Multis do not have a requirement that the cacher go to the posted coordinates to do something. For example, a listing containing just a projection could be listed as a Multi (ie. an 'offset' cache). In that case, there's no need to go to the posted coordinates.

 

Also, Mysteries don't require work beyond just reading the listing. That may be needed for many Mysteries, but a Mystery can also be made without such a requirement. One could even be set up to act like a Multi.

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1 hour ago, The A-Team said:

For example, a listing containing just a projection could be listed as a Multi

 

You have been instructed wrongly. This is not allowed. Even an offset multi-cache needs visiting the posted coordinates.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, arisoft said:

 

You have been instructed wrongly. This is not allowed. Even an offset multi-cache needs visiting the posted coordinates.

 

 

 

You are mistaken. A Projection from a posted point of origin does not require one to visit the posted point of origin.

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Posted (edited)

I think there's a bit of cross-talking going on here...

A multi-cache requires doing something at posted - even if it's gathering a number from a sign to calculate an offset. To my best knowledge, if someone in my region were to publish a cache where there was nothing to do at the posted coordinates but from which to offset the final, the reviewer would request it be published as an Unknown, not a Multi - Multis can be offsets, but the posted coordinates must be relevant and visited.

Don't know if that's the same for all regions, or if cache exceptions could have been made, or older caches grandfathered, but AFAIK that's the way it is now.

 

An Unknown may or may not have a relevant activity at the posted coordinates (eg Challenge caches at posted, or field puzzle at posted, etc, vs calculating an offset without having to visit posted, like via a puzzle in the listing - each are valid Unknowns), but a Multi must have some relevant activity, physical stage, or info-gathering at posted.

 

I think night cache tack trails are a grey area. IIRC, I've seen those published both as Multis and Unknowns, perhaps depending on what's required before finding the first tack of a trail to follow, or the nature of stages combined with the tack trail from start to finish...

Edited by thebruce0

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3 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

I think there's a bit of cross-talking going on here...

A multi-cache requires doing something at posted - even if it's gathering a number from a sign to calculate an offset. To my best knowledge, if someone in my region were to publish a cache where there was nothing to do at the posted coordinates but from which to offset the final, the reviewer would request it be published as an Unknown, not a Multi - Multis can be offsets, but the posted coordinates must be relevant and visited.

Don't know if that's the same for all regions, or if cache exceptions could have been made, or older caches grandfathered, but AFAIK that's the way it is now.

 

I think there are plenty of multis out there that should really be mysteries, and vice versa.

 

The guidelines certainly suggest you should visit the posted coords for a multi (even for a projection), but there will always be cases where the on site information can be gathered remotely.

 

https://www.geocaching.com/help/index.php?pg=kb.chapter&id=127:

 

- Must have multiple stages.

 

- The posted coordinates must be for the first stage.

 

- The cache can be found by reading the cache page and following the instructions in the field.

 

- If the cache includes a projection, the projection must be calculated in the field using bearing and distance from one of the stages.

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5 minutes ago, IceColdUK said:

I think there are plenty of multis out there that should really be mysteries, and vice versa.

 

Field puzzle is allowed for a multi-cache but it must be something you really can do on field. For example, I have a multi-cache which requires to solve a Rubik's cube to get the coordinates to the final container.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, IceColdUK said:

I think there are plenty of multis out there that should really be mysteries, and vice versa.

Even more annoying are the Traditionals which should be multies or puzzles. I have gone to a cache listed as a Traditional, but really it was a multi (from memory it might have had six stages). I searched for ages at the given coordinates, but after not finding the 'Traditional;' cache I read the description. That's when I saw that was but one of six stages. So annoying; I moved onto another cache. I had already wasted too much time at that wrongly listed cache. I was fairly new to caching then, so I don't think I wrote anything about it being wrongly listed. Probably would today, although that's usually a waste of time mentioning that, as most COs ignore comments like that and nothing changes.

Edited by Goldenwattle
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3 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

I had already wasted too much time at that wrongly listed cache. I was fairly new to caching then, so I don't think I wrote anything about it being wrongly listed. Probably would today, although that's usually a waste of time mentioning that, as most COs ignore comments like that and nothing changes.

 

In this case you can report the situation directly to the reviewer who published the cache. It is possible that the CO has changed the description afterwards and the most propably not registered correctly all stages.

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, arisoft said:

 

Field puzzle is allowed for a multi-cache but it must be something you really can do on field. For example, I have a multi-cache which requires to solve a Rubik's cube to get the coordinates to the final container.

 

If that's the case, this should be listed as unknown, definitely NOT what I would expect from a multi. According to Quora, only 5.8 % of people can solve the Rubiks cube.

Edited by papu66
Edited "NOT" in there

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43 minutes ago, papu66 said:
1 hour ago, arisoft said:

Field puzzle is allowed for a multi-cache but it must be something you really can do on field. For example, I have a multi-cache which requires to solve a Rubik's cube to get the coordinates to the final container.

 

If that's the case, this should be listed as unknown, definitely NOT what I would expect from a multi. According to Quora, only 5.8 % of people can solve the Rubiks cube.

 

I don’t see why the difficulty of the field puzzle should affect the cache type.  Not many people have the ability (or equipment) for difficult tree climbs, but they’re still fine as Trads.  So long as the ratings and attributes are set correctly, no problem.

 

That said, for its own protection, I’d be inclined to turn a cache like this into a mystery.

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1 hour ago, papu66 said:

If that's the case, this should be listed as unknown, definitely NOT what I would expect from a multi.

 

Solving a Rubik's cube does not require additional research that goes beyond reading the cache page. It is like using a code lock on a traditional cache. You try every code until it opens.

 

What you expect is based on what you have seen before. In the case of my Rubik's cube multi-cache all guidelines were thoroughly considered by the reviewer.

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8 hours ago, IceColdUK said:

The guidelines certainly suggest you should visit the posted coords for a multi (even for a projection), but there will always be cases where the on site information can be gathered remotely. 

 

Sure but yes the intent of the cache is that you must go to the posted coordinates.  Obviously the CO can't force someone to go to the posted, just like a CO can't force someone to solve their puzzle themselves, etc. In a Multi, the posted coordinates should be a relevant step to visit in the multi-stage journey to signing the logsheet, as you quote from the guidelines :)

 

7 hours ago, papu66 said:
8 hours ago, arisoft said:

 

Field puzzle is allowed for a multi-cache but it must be something you really can do on field. For example, I have a multi-cache which requires to solve a Rubik's cube to get the coordinates to the final container.

 

If that's the case, this should be listed as unknown, definitely NOT what I would expect from a multi. According to Quora, only 5.8 % of people can solve the Rubiks cube.

 

If the field puzzle is used to determine the next stage's coordinates, then it can be listed as a multi; but it could also be listed as an Unknown. But in iether case, the Field Puzzle attribute would be required.

 

6 hours ago, IceColdUK said:

That said, for its own protection, I’d be inclined to turn a cache like this into a mystery.

 

Likewise. I'd personally interpret that additional mental task as a bit more than a physical waypoint (but it could be subjective; calculating a projection from the waypoint could be as much work for some as solving a field puzzle to determine a waypoint).  I, personally, would likely list it as an Unknown, even though some reviewers might allow it as a Multi (assuming the field puzzle is at stage of two or more waypoints)

 

 

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1 minute ago, thebruce0 said:

But in iether case, the Field Puzzle attribute would be required.

 

Unfortinately it is not required, as far as I know, but it would be very good addition anyway. :D

I would suggest multi-cache type if the puzzle is intented and possible to solve on-site, like counting windows from a building or solving easy equations without using moon logic and something which does not require using on-line geochecker. (There is something wrong if a multi-cache requires a geochecker)

.

One multi-cache I found required solving a system of linear equations and another multicache from the same CO required to solve roots of quadratic equation. In this case I slightly opposed this cache type selection as the method to solve the puzzle may not be known by every geocacher but generally these are well known mathematical problems to solve even on the field.

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2 minutes ago, arisoft said:
18 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

But in iether case, the Field Puzzle attribute would be required.

 

Unfortinately it is not required, as far as I know, but it would be very good addition anyway. :D

 

Ok true, not required, but I'd be surprised if a reviewer wouldn't request adding if they knew there was a field puzzle, and as a CO I'd add choose to add the attribute as a courtesy to the finders.

 

3 minutes ago, arisoft said:

One multi-cache I found required solving a system of linear equations and another multicache from the same CO required to solve roots of quadratic equation. In this case I slightly opposed this cache type selection as the method to solve the puzzle may not be known by every geocacher but generally these are well known mathematical problems to solve even on the field.

 

Complex math in the field is evil.

But yes, often you get values from something at a waypoint and may have to do some (simple-ish) algebra to determine the next/final coordinates.

I would adjust the D of such a cache based on how difficult I think the math is. Quadratics wouldn't be easy, but not super-hard. Special knowledge, scientific/technical/statistical, would get a higher D.  Having the math unknown until you get to the waypoint (rather than shown as an algraic formula in the cache description) would be even more evil.

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9 hours ago, IceColdUK said:

I think there are plenty of multis out there that should really be mysteries, and vice versa.

There are also regional variations.

 

I learned geocaching here in the SF Bay Area, where most cache owners really do appreciate the One True Distinction Between Multi-Caches and Mystery Puzzle Caches™, but I've found caches elsewhere, in places where cache owners consistently get it wrong. ;) In some cases, they consistently list caches Mystery Puzzle Caches that we would list as Multi-Caches. In other cases, they consistently list caches as Multi-Caches that we would list as Mystery Puzzle Caches.

 

 

9 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

Even more annoying are the Traditionals which should be multies or puzzles.

I've heard of muggled traditionals being converted into offset caches (still listed as traditionals) because the owner didn't know how to (or didn't want to, or couldn't) change the posted coordinates. But the only non-traditional "traditional" that I've seen was a very old cache that was listed in the very early days when the distinctions between cache types were a bit fuzzier. That one was actually a fairly clever field puzzle, although a lot of people got it by greatly expanding their search radius rather than by figuring out the puzzle. And it was recently archived because its location is now a construction site.

 

 

7 hours ago, arisoft said:

Solving a Rubik's cube does not require additional research that goes beyond reading the cache page.

Yeah, solving a Rubik's cube really isn't that hard. Rotate one of the faces by 45 degrees, then pop off one of the exposed corner pieces. Then slide the adjacent side pieces around and pop them off. Keep going until you've completely disassembled the Rubik's cube, and then reverse the process to reassemble it in the solved state. Ta-da!

 

 

1 hour ago, thebruce0 said:

Complex math in the field is evil.

I've had the most problems with simple arithmetic, although usually that's been when one of the calculations didn't follow the pattern established by the others, something like:
A = the number of yellow flowers in the mural

B = the number of blue flowers in the mural

C = the number of birds in the mural

D = the number of words in the first line of the plaque

E = twice the last digit of the date on the plaque

F = the number of names listed on the plaque

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12 hours ago, IceColdUK said:

https://www.geocaching.com/help/index.php?pg=kb.chapter&id=127:

 

- Must have multiple stages.

 

- The posted coordinates must be for the first stage.

 

- The cache can be found by reading the cache page and following the instructions in the field.

 

- If the cache includes a projection, the projection must be calculated in the field using bearing and distance from one of the stages.

 

Interesting, I hadn't seen this Multi vs. Mystery table before. It looks like they're trying to normalize the regional differences between the two types. I take back my previous post.

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4 hours ago, arisoft said:

There is something wrong if a multi-cache requires a geochecker

 

I've included a checker on some of my multis simply as a confidence-booster for seekers, particularly if getting to GZ involves crossing some tough terrain (like GC6JMDK for example, where the T4 bit is getting from the last waypoint at sea level to GZ at the top of the cliff overlooking it). It also stops me getting messages from people who've reached the penultimate stage and want to make sure they have the right coordinates before going bush.

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1 hour ago, barefootjeff said:

It also stops me getting messages from people who've reached the penultimate stage and want to make sure they have the right coordinates before going bush.

 

Have you any idea why they are suspecting problems?

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15 hours ago, IceColdUK said:

Not many people have the ability (or equipment) for difficult tree climbs, but they’re still fine as Trads.  So long as the ratings and attributes are set correctly, no problem.

Yes 1.5T, because as the CO (finds in the 100s) insisted, the walk to the tree was flat; therefore 1.5T, and I didn't know what I was talking about suggesting otherwise.

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8 hours ago, arisoft said:

 

Have you any idea why they are suspecting problems?

 

They're not suspecting problems as such, they just don't want to commit to the extreme terrain part of the cache without some surety. Mistakes happen - digits get transposed, sums are performed incorrectly, a dodgy pen might make a seven look like a one or an eight look like a nine. All sorts of reasons, and having the checker there for those that want reassurance is easier than having them messaging me at a time when I'm out on the road (or in the bush caching) and can't look anything up.

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1 hour ago, barefootjeff said:

They're not suspecting problems as such, they just don't want to commit to the extreme terrain part of the cache without some surety. Mistakes happen - digits get transposed, sums are performed incorrectly, a dodgy pen might make a seven look like a one or an eight look like a nine. All sorts of reasons, and having the checker there for those that want reassurance is easier than having them messaging me at a time when I'm out on the road (or in the bush caching) and can't look anything up.

 

One important reason to have a geochecker is to verify that a friend gave correct final coordinates to the cache. You know this when it happens that the first stage is missing but players still can find the final cache without any problems to report.

 

The reason why I think that a multi-cache with a geochecker is somehow broken is that the cache type is intented to be found without smartphones - using a printed description and GPSr only. I understand that using the geochecker is optional but my experience is that very often, when there is a geochecker in a multi-cache, I can not get the correct coordinates because the decription is too ambiguous.

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23 hours ago, arisoft said:

Solving a Rubik's cube does not require additional research that goes beyond reading the cache page. It is like using a code lock on a traditional cache. You try every code until it opens.

 

What you expect is based on what you have seen before. In the case of my Rubik's cube multi-cache all guidelines were thoroughly considered by the reviewer.

 

For me, it was good decision to list it as multicache, I do prefer your approach.

 

When travelling I don't have much time for preparation, so typically I filter out Mystery caches from my focus, definitelly difficult ones.

I keep Multicaches on my map, because they usually mean that you can go for them and can finish them directly in the field, without homework before the hunt.

BTW, this is also the very simple test, which I use as the owner - can it be completed without prior homework, only by reading cache page & following instructions?

 

There are not many high Diff Multicaches, so it is quite likely that I would spot it on the map and try to find it.

On the other hand - in case it would be listed as Mystery cache, I'd just filter it out along with all the other difficult Mystery caches. And so I would miss interesting cache.

 

The guideline, explaining difference between Multi & Mystery is spot on and sensible.

Sure, some cache designs fall to grey area, where owner can go both ways and decide, or follow regional tradition. That's OK to me. 

 

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17 hours ago, niraD said:

Yeah, solving a Rubik's cube really isn't that hard. Rotate one of the faces by 45 degrees, then pop off one of the exposed corner pieces. Then slide the adjacent side pieces around and pop them off. Keep going until you've completely disassembled the Rubik's cube, and then reverse the process to reassemble it in the solved state. Ta-da!

 

Which is why I said...

 

On 4/2/2019 at 10:10 AM, IceColdUK said:

... for its own protection, I’d be inclined to turn a cache like this into a mystery.

 

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18 hours ago, arisoft said:

 

Unfortinately it is not required, as far as I know, but it would be very good addition anyway. :D

I would suggest multi-cache type if the puzzle is intented and possible to solve on-site, like counting windows from a building or solving easy equations without using moon logic and something which does not require using on-line geochecker. (There is something wrong if a multi-cache requires a geochecker)

.

One multi-cache I found required solving a system of linear equations and another multicache from the same CO required to solve roots of quadratic equation. In this case I slightly opposed this cache type selection as the method to solve the puzzle may not be known by every geocacher but generally these are well known mathematical problems to solve even on the field.

 

To me, the distinction between a puzzle cache and a multi where one has to obtain information while in the field to derive a set of number for a subsequent location simply boils down to the complexity of what one much do with that information.  If it involves simply counting something or basic arithmetic, make it a multi.  Anything more complex than that and it should be an unknown/mystery.  

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1 hour ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

If it involves simply counting something or basic arithmetic, make it a multi.  Anything more complex than that and it should be an unknown/mystery. 

 

The guideline states that the field puzzle should be "simple" but it allows using formulas, equations and ciphers. For me it is important that the task is something you really can do on-field.

 

One of local reviewers himself published a multi-cache which was actually an Intercache. When I noted about the situation the cache type changed to mystery. It may be difficult also for reviewers to distinguesh between these types of caches.Some problematis setups have been QR-caches which requires a special tool and caches which need on-line Internet connection, for example, final coordinates is available only from a geochecker or alike.

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On 4/2/2019 at 12:16 PM, arisoft said:

 

Solving a Rubik's cube does not require additional research that goes beyond reading the cache page. It is like using a code lock on a traditional cache. You try every code until it opens.

 

What you expect is based on what you have seen before. In the case of my Rubik's cube multi-cache all guidelines were thoroughly considered by the reviewer.

 

Lots of things are more easily said than done, that's not the point. I bought Rubik's cube 15 years ago and I have gotten as far as four sides solved. It took Ernő Rubik one month to solve it first, so easy it is not. You can describe how to solve it (wiggle it until it's done) and put it description yeah, but if you have never done it then you are not able to do this magic in the field in a reasonable time.

 

I have an extra 10000 piece jigsaw puzzle but I wouldn't use that even for a field puzzle, let alone a multi stage. I expect multi's to be simple and not requiring much more than reading skills.

multi cache = a series of easy traditional caches.

For me this would be a mystery, but then I'm confused that some people call mystery caches "unknown caches" so what do I know.

 

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4 minutes ago, papu66 said:

Lots of things are more easily said than done, that's not the point. I bought Rubik's cube 15 years ago and I have gotten as far as four sides solved. It took Ernő Rubik one month to solve it first, so easy it is not. You can describe how to solve it (wiggle it until it's done) and put it description yeah, but if you have never done it then you are not able to do this magic in the field in a reasonable time. 

 

You are welcome to try! :)

 

5 minutes ago, papu66 said:

For me this would be a mystery, but then I'm confused that some people call mystery caches "unknown caches" so what do I know.

 

Historically "Unknown Cache " is a cache which doesn't fit to any other cache type - so the type is practically unknown. It is ok to publish a traditional cache as an unknown cache - without a puzzle or mystery at all.

 

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8 minutes ago, arisoft said:

 

You are welcome to try! :)

 

 

For D2.5 should be not too hard :huh:. I have a hunch that solving the cube is not required after all, if you can visualize where each piece goes even if you can't make them to.

 

8 minutes ago, arisoft said:

Historically "Unknown Cache " is a cache which doesn't fit to any other cache type - so the type is practically unknown. It is ok to publish a traditional cache as an unknown cache - without a puzzle or mystery at all.

 

 I thought tradi's (with a puzzle box) can't be unknown because the coordinates are in fact not "not known".

Edited by papu66
forgot "not" again.

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8 hours ago, papu66 said:

For me this would be a mystery, but then I'm confused that some people call mystery caches "unknown caches" so what do I know.

Well, in the very early days, there were no "cache types". The earliest archived version of the cache types page lists the following types: traditional, multi-cache, virtual, letterbox hybrid, event, and unknown. In late 2003, the guidelines referred to this "catch all" type as "Mystery or Puzzle Caches" rather than as "Unknown Caches". But there were still places that referred to "Unknown Caches" when I started in early 2006, so you can see how there might be some confusion in the terminology.

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