FTF

[+narcissa]

Hi Narcissa, doing your "evil is afoot" vibe to this thread as well, I see. <sigh>

 

Hi Nutlady.. She is semi local to me.

 

Nutlady, I don't play FTF but I do mark my FTF logs as such as a courtesy to the others around here who do rush out the door. I also will send a FTF log from the phone, with just that "FTF" so Wayne, Kevin, (you know them), know that they can turn around.

 

I don't do it because I am cowtailing to bad behavior, but to give them a heads up that I already found it. If they rolled up an hour or three later and saw my name, they wouldn't say anything negative about it. The shenanigans game that Narcissa sees isn't happening everywhere and we do things not for the reasons that she perceives.

 

I said earlier that most FTF players seem to manage to play their side game nicely without making harsh comments to others.

 

If you're doing something as a courtesy to others, great. If you're suggesting that someone else should do that thing to avoid receiving mean remarks from someone incapable of behaving him/herself, that's problematic.

 

It's important to draw a line between courtesy and expectation, especially when it comes to side games with no rules.

 

I don't know what the deal is with strange personal jabs from people I've never spoken to before, but that sort of thing seems to be more in line with "evil" than my point, which is that someone who is caching in full accordance with all reasonable expectations should not be told to tiptoe around bad people.

[+dprovan]

If you're doing something as a courtesy to others, great. If you're suggesting that someone else should do that thing to avoid receiving mean remarks from someone incapable of behaving him/herself, that's problematic.

The only difference between doing something as a courtesy and doing it because you don't want a particular reaction is in the expectation that the other party will, in fact, have that negative reaction. So the suggestion is to do it as a courtesy: it makes absolutely no difference whether the other person is a nice guy that will appreciate the gesture or a jerk that will be set off when the courtesy isn't given.

 

(By the way, I'm speaking in general: I don't myself like the technique of posting a quick, vacuous FTF log to be edited later, but it's OK with me if other people want to do it, and I can follow their logic. But allow me to point out that when I see people doing this, avoiding a negative reaction is never the thinking. In my area, when the FTFer posts the quick FTF log, it's specifically to communicate this information to people he considers friends.)

 

It's important to draw a line between courtesy and expectation, especially when it comes to side games with no rules.

I say that's exactly backwards: it's important not to consider expectation when deciding to be courteous. The idea of withholding courtesy because you "just know" that the other person is a jerk is both absurd and destructive. Why not just assume he's a nice guy? There's no downside to being courteous. You might even teach someone that would otherwise be a jerk how to be nice. On the other hand, if you insist on not doing simple things that cost you nothing on the grounds of "you can't make me", you set yourself up for an unnecessary and uninteresting fight. I think such a fight would be boring even when I know I can win it.

 

I don't know what the deal is with strange personal jabs from people I've never spoken to before...

Unlike you, most of us notice patterns in other people's actions. Unfortunately, one of the patterns is that it's unlikely you'll stop and consider the consensus that seems to have grown up about your behavior.

[+SeattleWayne]

 

Sure, we could debate from now until doomsday whether the FTF crowd is being reasonable. But just by waiting *one day* to search, everyone is happy.

 

"Everyone is happy" meaning the FTF hounds are happy. No one should have to wait for a cache to be found before they go find it.

 

You were the first to find a cache, wow. That'll go down in the history books of No one cares.

[the3gmen]

As others have stated there are no rules on how quickly you have to log a find online. Some cachers make their finds just for fun and never log them online.

 

When I was new to caching, I too cared about the FTF game and had a few but I quickly tired of it.

 

That being said, I do understand that others do care, so the couple of times I was lucky enough to stumble on a FTF, I will try to log SOMETHING online as soon as I can, either with my phone if there is a signal, or when I do get a strong enough signal to make the log. I will usually just log a quick note mentioning that it has been found and when I get home I will add to that log at my leisure. This is pretty much the only time I log anything with my phone.

 

Unfortunately some people take caching a little too seriously and get bent out of shape easily. If they are so into the FTF game they should have learned loooong ago that disappointment is a major part of the game.

[+narcissa]

If you're doing something as a courtesy to others, great. If you're suggesting that someone else should do that thing to avoid receiving mean remarks from someone incapable of behaving him/herself, that's problematic.

The only difference between doing something as a courtesy and doing it because you don't want a particular reaction is in the expectation that the other party will, in fact, have that negative reaction. So the suggestion is to do it as a courtesy: it makes absolutely no difference whether the other person is a nice guy that will appreciate the gesture or a jerk that will be set off when the courtesy isn't given.

 

(By the way, I'm speaking in general: I don't myself like the technique of posting a quick, vacuous FTF log to be edited later, but it's OK with me if other people want to do it, and I can follow their logic. But allow me to point out that when I see people doing this, avoiding a negative reaction is never the thinking. In my area, when the FTFer posts the quick FTF log, it's specifically to communicate this information to people he considers friends.)

 

It's important to draw a line between courtesy and expectation, especially when it comes to side games with no rules.

I say that's exactly backwards: it's important not to consider expectation when deciding to be courteous. The idea of withholding courtesy because you "just know" that the other person is a jerk is both absurd and destructive. Why not just assume he's a nice guy? There's no downside to being courteous. You might even teach someone that would otherwise be a jerk how to be nice. On the other hand, if you insist on not doing simple things that cost you nothing on the grounds of "you can't make me", you set yourself up for an unnecessary and uninteresting fight. I think such a fight would be boring even when I know I can win it.

 

The difference between courtesy and expectation is important in this game because we're all equipped with different means of playing the game. The most courteous players may or may not be technologically equipped for the immediate logging that a handful of poor sports seem to demand.

 

I assume that most geocachers attempt a basic level of courtesy in their play. Their attempts at courtesy may or may not align with my personal preferences. I don't consider it discourteous when someone does something in a way that is in accordance with the basic parameters of the game, yet not in keeping with my preferences.

 

I expect geocachers to follow the basic game parameters, and not use logs to write harsh, disparaging things about people who did nothing wrong.

 

It is not reasonable to expect good geocachers to adjust their processes or buy new equipment to appease a very small group of poorly behaved people who can't control themselves. It is disappointing that the forum insists on defending such problematic ideas.

Edited February 20, 2017 by narcissa

[+dprovan]

The difference between courtesy and expectation is important in this game because we're all equipped with different means of playing the game. The most courteous players may or may not be technologically equipped for the immediate logging that a handful of poor sports seem to demand.

I would say it goes without saying, both logically and from the English language, that courtesy cannot possibly extend to things that are impossible to do.

 

I expect geocachers to follow the basic game parameters, and not use logs to write harsh, disparaging things about people who did nothing wrong.

Glad to hear it. People suggesting the quick find are suggesting it because it's nice to do if you can, not because they're assuming the worst in everyone.

[+narcissa]

The difference between courtesy and expectation is important in this game because we're all equipped with different means of playing the game. The most courteous players may or may not be technologically equipped for the immediate logging that a handful of poor sports seem to demand.

I would say it goes without saying, both logically and from the English language, that courtesy cannot possibly extend to things that are impossible to do.

 

I expect geocachers to follow the basic game parameters, and not use logs to write harsh, disparaging things about people who did nothing wrong.

Glad to hear it. People suggesting the quick find are suggesting it because it's nice to do if you can, not because they're assuming the worst in everyone.

 

People are suggesting it because it might prevent a handful of bad people from directing their abuse at the OP. All it means is that those bad people will abuse the next person who comes along and runs afoul of their imaginary rules.

 

What happens if someone decides that logging from the field spoils the FTF fun for them? I was looking forward to the mystery and uncertainty of the chase but some joker logged it from the field five minutes after it got published. Boo! Lack of courtesy!

 

How can we possibly expect everyone to keep track of all these side games, imaginary rules, and personal tastes? How can anybody possibly be courteous to everyone if courtesy means bowing down to arbitrary preferences?

 

It becomes ridiculous. You should do this nitpicky inconsequential thing because it's courteous to some people, but you should also do the exact opposite because it's courteous to other people.

 

The most courteous way to geocache is to follow the basic parameters of the game and not impose matters of personal taste on others.

[+Team DEMP]

The most courteous way to geocache is to follow the basic parameters of the game and not impose matters of personal taste on others.

says one who imposes their preference as the only way...

 

It is often my opinion that other people's opinions are wrong

[+niraD]

The most courteous way to geocache is to follow the basic parameters of the game and not impose matters of personal taste on others.

says one who imposes their preference as the only way...

It is often my opinion that other people's opinions are wrong

In what way is anything being "imposed" here?

[+dprovan]

The most courteous way to geocache is to follow the basic parameters of the game and not impose matters of personal taste on others.

No one here has suggested anything else, regardless of your insistence on interpreting their statements otherwise.

[+narcissa]

The most courteous way to geocache is to follow the basic parameters of the game and not impose matters of personal taste on others.

No one here has suggested anything else, regardless of your insistence on interpreting their statements otherwise.

 

The ones imposing matters of personal taste are the FTF people who wrote angry logs to begin with. They're the ones assuming discourtesy in a benign action, they're the ones turning preferences into rules and complaining when people don't adhere to them.

 

My point remains that I wish the forum would be more cautious about making well-meaning suggestions that only serve to promote the original problem. Dancing around arbitrary rules isn't courtesy.

[+TriciaG]

[+redsox_mark]

I don't think there is any evidence in this thread that anyone has written angry logs.

 

From the OP, I think paraphrasing the logs: "Well, I thought I would be first, but because she did not log the find immediately.".

 

Here is an example of such a log: Link

 

I see nothing angry. The log does imply some disappointment by the STF. And that makes the OP feel like crud (her words).

 

My position remains the same as I said in post 8. The OP has done nothing wrong, and doesn't need to do anything differently. If there are really angry logs, report them. But there are things she could do differently if she wants to.

[+dprovan]

The ones imposing matters of personal taste are the FTF people who wrote angry logs to begin with.

Everyone here has agreed that controlling, angry people are bad.

 

What I don't like about your position is that you assume that anyone interested in the quick FTF message will automatically be a controlling, angry person. This makes you reject the courteous approach based on the thinking that no one should ever be courteous to a controlling, angry person.

 

When I consider my own behavior, I don't think controlling, angry people are worth thinking about, which leads me to suggest being courteous because all I can imagine are the people that might appreciate the courtesy.

[+narcissa]

The ones imposing matters of personal taste are the FTF people who wrote angry logs to begin with.

Everyone here has agreed that controlling, angry people are bad.

 

What I don't like about your position is that you assume that anyone interested in the quick FTF message will automatically be a controlling, angry person. This makes you reject the courteous approach based on the thinking that no one should ever be courteous to a controlling, angry person.

 

When I consider my own behavior, I don't think controlling, angry people are worth thinking about, which leads me to suggest being courteous because all I can imagine are the people that might appreciate the courtesy.

 

I am sure that interest in the quick find note varies from person to person. I wouldn't be surprised if some FTFers don't like the quick find notes, while others are totally ambivalent. Which preference takes precedence if someone is genuinely trying to be courteous to everyone? When gestures of courtesy are predicated on arbitrary rules and preferences, rather than universal standards, it's an impossible task to be courteous to everyone. What is "courtesy" to one person may irk someone else. For another example, leaving toys is a courtesy for people caching with distracted children, and the most terrible thing you can do to someone who wants adult swag. How can anyone expect other geocachers to be courteous when the goal posts shift like that?

 

If the point of suggesting the quick note is to mitigate abusive behaviour, it's a poor suggestion. If it's about courtesy, it's setting people up for failure. Either way, it's problematic.

 

Cache according to the basic parameters and the process that works for you. Other geocachers are responsible for wearing their own grown up pants and managing their own reactions to benign geocaching activity.

[+dprovan]

I am sure that interest in the quick find note varies from person to person. I wouldn't be surprised if some FTFers don't like the quick find notes, while others are totally ambivalent. Which preference takes precedence if someone is genuinely trying to be courteous to everyone?

You're adjusting the conversation. You starting out arguing against the suggestion that people be courteous, and I objected. Now you're pretending you were only questioning whether the suggested behavior should be considered courteous. I find that disingenuous.

 

But, anyway, your point here is also wrong. Yes, some people don't like the quick and vacuous FTF logs -- in fact, as I've said a couple times now, I don't care for the quick, vacuous FTF logs -- but no one that's being reasonable could fail to recognize that they're an attempt at courtesy.

[+narcissa]

I am sure that interest in the quick find note varies from person to person. I wouldn't be surprised if some FTFers don't like the quick find notes, while others are totally ambivalent. Which preference takes precedence if someone is genuinely trying to be courteous to everyone?

You're adjusting the conversation. You starting out arguing against the suggestion that people be courteous, and I objected. Now you're pretending you were only questioning whether the suggested behavior should be considered courteous. I find that disingenuous.

 

But, anyway, your point here is also wrong. Yes, some people don't like the quick and vacuous FTF logs -- in fact, as I've said a couple times now, I don't care for the quick, vacuous FTF logs -- but no one that's being reasonable could fail to recognize that they're an attempt at courtesy.

 

People should always be courteous by following the basic parameters of the game and otherwise geocaching in a predictable manner.

 

People should not expect others to adhere to arbitrary personal preferences and cry "courtesy" when their imaginary rules are ignored/unknown.

 

The quick FTF logs may be an attempt at courtesy toward those who want them, but it is still very possible that other geocachers will interpret them as discourteous because they spoil the way they like to play the FTF side game. It's still just a side game with no established rules, no matter how loud a handful of misguided participants bluster about it.

 

And telling someone who did nothing wrong that he/she should change to suit others in order to avoid poor treatment just plain stinks. I don't know why the forum is in such a rage to tiptoe around poor geocaching behaviour.

[+hzoi]

The OP has gotten a lot of opinions on this thread. Without naming names, the ones that say "stick it to the FTF crowd" don't seem entirely helpful. These may be folks whose parents taped over the end of "How the Grinch Stole Christmas," depriving them of the lesson and leaving them to root for the green guy.

 

I used to be much more into the FTF side game than I am now, especially as a brand new cacher. I would race out when I saw a new cache email, often in the middle of a work day. (It's a good thing I was in charge of my local branch office at the time.) The first several times, I was too late, and there was wailing and gnashing of teeth until I finally got some.

 

These days I don't normally try to be first. I do still keep track of FTFs, but more just out of habit; I normally don't try to get more than one a year. I'm happy to let caches build up and then go on runs, much like the OP. And I also typically do not log caches on the go, so I also identify with the OP on that one.

 

On the few occasions where I manage to be first to find, though, I will at least get on the app or the website from my phone and log a quick find, usually "FTF, more later," so that those more rabid FTF hounds at least know what they're getting into. Then I'll go back and add more detail when I get back to the keyboard.

 

That's neither the right way nor the wrong way to geocache; it's just my approach. I personally think it's a good one, else I wouldn't do it, but I don't have any expectation for others to follow suit merely because that's how I approach it.

 

cowtailing to bad behavior

Say what now?

 

Did you mean kowtowing, perhaps?

[+hzoi]

I don't think there is any evidence in this thread that anyone has written angry logs.

 

From the OP, I think paraphrasing the logs: "Well, I thought I would be first, but because she did not log the find immediately.".

 

Here is an example of such a log: Link

 

I see nothing angry. The log does imply some disappointment by the STF. And that makes the OP feel like crud (her words).

 

My position remains the same as I said in post 8. The OP has done nothing wrong, and doesn't need to do anything differently. If there are really angry logs, report them. But there are things she could do differently if she wants to.

Agreed.

 

As a side note, the STF in question there did get a FTF that day, and also is closing in on 3,000 FTFs. Peraonally, I'd say they're all stocked up. Certainly they have been playing the FTF game long enough to know that just because they want to be FTF doesn't make it a guarantee. I perhaps read some mild disappointment in their log but not hurt feelings or any expectation of certain behavior on the part of the OP. (And if they had been butt hurt about it, then I would not have a lot of sympathy for them.)

[+dprovan]

People should always be courteous by following the basic parameters of the game and otherwise geocaching in a predictable manner.

I'm starting to think this is our main disagreement. I think people should always be courteous. End of sentence. Geocaching considerations might play into courtesy, but courtesy is a larger, more inclusive concept.

 

People should not expect others to adhere to arbitrary personal preferences and cry "courtesy" when their imaginary rules are ignored/unknown.

No one here has suggested anything like this. Furthermore, that's be explicitly pointed out to you multiple times.

 

The quick FTF logs may be an attempt at courtesy toward those who want them, but it is still very possible that other geocachers will interpret them as discourteous because they spoil the way they like to play the FTF side game.

I do not believe there is anyone like this. And in addition, if someone did think they should be able to dictate when someone else is courteous, I don't think there's any reason to take them into account when deciding how to be courteous.

[+niraD]

The quick FTF logs may be an attempt at courtesy toward those who want them, but it is still very possible that other geocachers will interpret them as discourteous because they spoil the way they like to play the FTF side game.

I do not believe there is anyone like this.

Perhaps there isn't anyone just like that, but I find terse "more later" logs annoying, and perhaps even (gasp!) discourteous to the CO and anyone else who reads logs primarily through the email notifications.

[+narcissa]

People should always be courteous by following the basic parameters of the game and otherwise geocaching in a predictable manner.

I'm starting to think this is our main disagreement. I think people should always be courteous. End of sentence. Geocaching considerations might play into courtesy, but courtesy is a larger, more inclusive concept.

 

People should not expect others to adhere to arbitrary personal preferences and cry "courtesy" when their imaginary rules are ignored/unknown.

No one here has suggested anything like this. Furthermore, that's be explicitly pointed out to you multiple times.

 

The quick FTF logs may be an attempt at courtesy toward those who want them, but it is still very possible that other geocachers will interpret them as discourteous because they spoil the way they like to play the FTF side game.

I do not believe there is anyone like this. And in addition, if someone did think they should be able to dictate when someone else is courteous, I don't think there's any reason to take them into account when deciding how to be courteous.

 

It's not relevant if you think there is anyone like this. There could be. There are certainly plenty of people who are ambivalent about it, so there's no reason to hold this practice up as some sort of gold standard for FTFing.

 

There are people who have all kinds of different preferences in this game. Some of those preferences may not make sense to you or to me, but they exist. It is simply not reasonable to expect or ask other geocachers to act in accordance with conflicting preferences. That's just maddening.

 

I can't notify everyone of an FTF immediately AND keep the FTF mystery alive AND please a cache owner who wants the first log to be a good log. Those are all equally valid, but incompatible preferences. No matter what I do as the FTF, someone's going to be disappointed or annoyed. Why is the instant notification the courteous option here?

[+dprovan]

Perhaps there isn't anyone just like that, but I find terse "more later" logs annoying, and perhaps even (gasp!) discourteous to the CO and anyone else who reads logs primarily through the email notifications.

I don't believe you. Certainly, I can understand you being annoyed. I suppose I was once or twice until I got used to it, and I still don't like them. But I cannot believe you literally thought they were being rude. You must have recognized that they thought they were being nice to someone even if you didn't appreciate their action yourself.

[+narcissa]

Perhaps there isn't anyone just like that, but I find terse "more later" logs annoying, and perhaps even (gasp!) discourteous to the CO and anyone else who reads logs primarily through the email notifications.

I don't believe you. Certainly, I can understand you being annoyed. I suppose I was once or twice until I got used to it, and I still don't like them. But I cannot believe you literally thought they were being rude. You must have recognized that they thought they were being nice to someone even if you didn't appreciate their action yourself.

 

As a courtesy to you, they should do what you prefer.

[+niraD]

Perhaps there isn't anyone just like that, but I find terse "more later" logs annoying, and perhaps even (gasp!) discourteous to the CO and anyone else who reads logs primarily through the email notifications.

I don't believe you. Certainly, I can understand you being annoyed. I suppose I was once or twice until I got used to it, and I still don't like them. But I cannot believe you literally thought they were being rude. You must have recognized that they thought they were being nice to someone even if you didn't appreciate their action yourself.

IMHO, terse "more later" logs are at least as discourteous as single-word "TFTC" logs. At least single-word "TFTC" logs are up front about their lack of content. Terse "more later" logs tease you with the possibility of additional content, at some undisclosed point in the future, as long as you go out of your way to find it, assuming you go out of your way to find it after it has been added, assuming that it is ever actually added.

 

(Worms, worms, worms everywhere!)

[+noncentric]

IMHO, terse "more later" logs are at least as discourteous as single-word "TFTC" logs. At least single-word "TFTC" logs are up front about their lack of content. Terse "more later" logs tease you with the possibility of additional content, at some undisclosed point in the future, as long as you go out of your way to find it, assuming you go out of your way to find it after it has been added, assuming that it is ever actually added.

I go for FTF's once in a while, if they're close to where I am. On such occasions, I will submit an "FTF, more later" Found It log as soon as I'm able from my phone. When I'm at my computer and can submit a complete log, then I'll submit a new Found It log for the cache, so that the CO receives that log in their email. I'll then go back and delete the 1st Found It log. This is what I do, because I know there are cachers in my area that will race out for an FTF and knowing a cache was already found would 'save them a trip'.

 

I don't know any cachers that would be disappointed in seeing that a cache was already found because they wanted to keep the "mystery alive" of whether they could be first or not. Those types of cachers may exist, but my personal preference is to be courteous to the cachers I know. I'm either courteous to the cachers I know and discourteous to those I don't know, or vice versa. Since there are no rules to the FTF side-game, then I don't see my fast logging as more/less wrong than later logging.

[+noncentric]

The basic message of the forum chorus is "here's something you could do to not set someone off," and that's problematic whether it's being articulated by one user or many.

And telling someone who did nothing wrong that he/she should change to suit others in order to avoid poor treatment just plain stinks. I don't know why the forum is in such a rage to tiptoe around poor geocaching behaviour.

If a cacher, not necessarily the OP, feels harassed by 'FTF chasers' or is discomforted by the tone directed at them, then I don't see a problem with providing options for how to avoid that discomfort. It's like someone telling me about a route that is 5 blocks out of my way, but enables me to avoid walking through a 'bad part of town'. Yes - I'm not doing anything wrong by walking through the bad part of town, but knowing that there's an alternate (safer) route to my destination can be helpful. That safer route may be preferable to me. I'd rather be told "you're not doing anything wrong by walking straight through, but you could also take this safer route" than to be told "you're not doing anything wrong by walking straight through, so just go through the bad part of town". I don't see anything wrong with giving someone an option of how to avoid being treated poorly. Some people may not want to "set someone off" if they can avoid it.

 

I don't see where a poster in this thread said that the OP "should change" their behavior. Most of the posts sounded to me as 'this is what I do', rather than 'this is what you should do'.

 

 

says one who imposes their preference as the only way...

I think you meant:

There is no need to differentiate the finer points between individual user comments when they're all saying the same wrong thing.

Edited February 22, 2017 by noncentric

[+dprovan]

As a courtesy to you, they should do what you prefer.

I'm the one arguing that they should do whatever they want. You are the one arguing that they shouldn't file the "FTF more later" log.

 

Sheesh. I even said in the message you quoted that I wish they wouldn't do that even though I'll defend their right to do it. How could you possibly accuse me of insist they do something I prefer?

[+thebruce0]

One thing I like about this thread: I wasn't a part of it

yeeshk.

 

I'll add to the chorus: I do my best to log a quick note or Found It, being clear that it's an FTF with more coming later. As a CO I'm not annoyed seeing that - I know it's because it's an FTF and they're almost certainly posting it from the field as a courtesy to others who may be coming to attempt the FTF and would prefer to know that they don't have to make the trip (and I've been on the receiving end of angry "why didn't post it earlier so I didn't have to drive all that way?!" even though they must inherently accept the risk that it'll be found by the time they get there).

I more often use a note, but rarely edit it to a Found It precisely because of the email content problem. I like my Finds in order as well, so if I have field notes, I won't post the final Found It until it's all caught up. That means either leaving the Note, or leaving the Found It and posting a new one and deleting the old one.

Pretty much what I do what most people also stated they do -- as a courtesy to other FTF hunters. Cuz we' been there, I'd think. Do unto others, and all that, eh?

Edited February 22, 2017 by thebruce0

[+narcissa]

As a courtesy to you, they should do what you prefer.

I'm the one arguing that they should do whatever they want. You are the one arguing that they shouldn't file the "FTF more later" log.

 

Sheesh. I even said in the message you quoted that I wish they wouldn't do that even though I'll defend their right to do it. How could you possibly accuse me of insist they do something I prefer?

 

I'm arguing that people shouldn't tell others what to do on the basis that it will mitigate potential abuse from poorly behaved people. That's bad advice even if the intention is good.

 

I'm also arguing that it should not be suggested under the guise of being a courtesy to everyone, because it's only a courtesy to a small handful of people, and potentially a nuisance to others.

 

If the quick and dirty FTF is part of someone's process, fine. If not, fine. It's a benign action that is not with or against the established parameters of geocaching. It's a matter of personal preference, not a gold standard for the game, nor an effective form of courtesy.

[+dprovan]

I'm arguing that people shouldn't tell others what to do on the basis that it will mitigate potential abuse from poorly behaved people.

NO ONE IS TELLING ANYONE TO DO THAT.

[+redsox_mark]

I'm arguing that people shouldn't tell others what to do on the basis that it will mitigate potential abuse from poorly behaved people.

NO ONE IS TELLING ANYONE TO DO THAT.

 

I don't know what else to say. I think Nutlady has all the information she needs. She has been assured she is doing nothing wrong. She has also been given some suggestions of things she COULD do. It is really down to her now. If she is reassured by the fact she is doing nothing wrong, then great. If she still feels bad and wants to do something else, she has been given ideas.

 

The main debate in this tread seems to be between the actual situation and a theoretical one. In this actual situation, there is no evidence or claim any cacher is being abusive or poorly behaved. We have a situation where a cacher (second to find) is stating facts in their log - that the cache was already found, but they didn't know as it hadn't been logged. And a CO, who I believe is a nice person, is bothered by this, as she doesn't want to upset/annoy anyone.

 

Many people have responded many times, in different ways, but most saying

1. Don't feel bad, you've done nothing wrong.

2. There are things you COULD do if you want those FTF hounds to be happier.

 

The thread then has taken a couple of twists. Most of the discussion I see assumes abuse, and assumes posters are telling Nutlady she SHOULD do other things (e.g. post a short log from the field). This is what I refer to as the theoretical argument. I agree, that IF a cacher is being abusive, that telling the OP that she SHOULD do something to avoid it would be wrong. I don't see anyone arguing against that.

 

The other recent twist I find interesting is the idea that posting a quick log from the field (with a longer followup later) itself could annoy others. Specifically, it could annoy the CO. Or, it could annoy other FTF hunters, who don't want the hunt spoiled by a early log saying the game is over. Personally I can't see anyone being really annoyed by this, but I suppose people can be annoyed by anything. We know some find short logs annoying, others might find long logs annoying. So yes, there is some risk you will annoy someone whatever you do, and I guess that is an argument against quick logging.

 

All I can add is what is common in my area. It is common for a FTF, if they can't write their full log soon after finding, to log a "FTF - more to follow" log. It is not expected, but it is common.

[+TeamRabbitRun]

 

<...>

 

IMHO, terse "more later" logs are at least as discourteous as single-word "TFTC" logs. At least single-word "TFTC" logs are up front about their lack of content. Terse "more later" logs tease you with the possibility of additional content, at some undisclosed point in the future, as long as you go out of your way to find it, assuming you go out of your way to find it after it has been added, assuming that it is ever actually added.

 

(Worms, worms, worms everywhere!)

 

Sorry you feel this way. Now that I'm caching with my phone, I file "More later" logs (worded differently) and fill them in when I get home to a keyboard.

• 
   
  
• My logs are doubly-targeted: At the CO, to get whatever they choose to get from finds (I love reading logs for my hides), and
  
• Future seekers
  

 

Therefore, they take some thought.

 

I'm not going to stand out there single-fingering a rushed log, misspelling words and let auto-correct mess up what I'm writing. My logs take a little planning and consideration, and I'm not going to do that in the field.

 

Alternatively, I'm not going to wait until I get home to log anything because then I'd have to keep a separate list of everything I found during the day. That's nuts. On my GPSr, I use Field Notes, which as we know automates everything except the actual log-text composition. On my phone, I use "More Later" logs.

 

I'm sorry if I'm not fulfilling a CO's desire for instant gratification. If the problem is that some people never go back and fulfill their promise of "More Later", then shame on them.

[+SeattleWayne]

I found a cache right after it was published once. I was driving home from work and I was about 20 miles from home when the email popped up on my phone. I was thinking, "I'll get there and there will be like, three geocachers all looking around for this cache.." Honestly, I didn't want to go after it. I was tired from work and I wanted to relax and kick my feet up. But I went after it.

 

I pulled into the parking lot of the small dental clinic and walked up to GZ. It was a micro hidden underneath a lamp post skirt. I was hoping for something a little more challenging but I'd take it. Just then a car came barreling around the corner. The headlights hit me and I stood up with the cache in my hand. I was thinking, "Oh, man! Here they come! Those dreaded, ferocious FTF Hounds are on the prowl!" I looked left and I looked right, desperately trying to find an escape route. I dashed back to my car, still holding the precious cache. The car whizzed by me and took a sharp turn down a side street. Feeew! I was safe. I unscrewed the top of the cache, dug out the fresh log and put "S.W" on there, because, you know the log was so tiny and all. I had placed the cap of the cache in my pocket but I didn't realize it was magnetized and the top actually stuck to my car key ring.

 

When I went searching for the cap, I couldn't find it. My heart started racing. I lost part of the cache! I figured something bad would happen if I didn't get the cache back together, and I was worried that car might return. I struggled to get the tiny log back into the cache because it was so tiny. Blargh! These fricken' micros, I yelled!

 

I could see another car coming. This one just had on its parking lights and was creeping slowly down the street. More FTF Hounds. I had to get out of here. I finally realized the cap was on the key ring, I snapped it off, screwed it back on and ran back across the street. I lifted up the skirt, replaced the cache and ran back to my car. I was sweating bullets. The FTF Hounds were closing in!

 

I quickly logged my find, and later learned no one cared. Not even the CO. I never even received a cool fashionable mention on the cache page. I wanted to take a photo of it saying something cool like, "And Congrats to SeattleWayne for FTF honors!" But nothing. Not even an email. My heart sank. How could this be? I beat out two vicious FTF Hounds to be the first one to sign the log of a new cache that was hidden underneath a lamp post skirt.

 

Maybe one day I'll get the recognition I so deserve. Until then...I'll just have to keep not caring about FTFs.

[+narcissa]

 

<...>

 

IMHO, terse "more later" logs are at least as discourteous as single-word "TFTC" logs. At least single-word "TFTC" logs are up front about their lack of content. Terse "more later" logs tease you with the possibility of additional content, at some undisclosed point in the future, as long as you go out of your way to find it, assuming you go out of your way to find it after it has been added, assuming that it is ever actually added.

 

(Worms, worms, worms everywhere!)

 

Sorry you feel this way. Now that I'm caching with my phone, I file "More later" logs (worded differently) and fill them in when I get home to a keyboard.

• 
   
  
• My logs are doubly-targeted: At the CO, to get whatever they choose to get from finds (I love reading logs for my hides), and
  
• Future seekers
  

 

Therefore, they take some thought.

 

I'm not going to stand out there single-fingering a rushed log, misspelling words and let auto-correct mess up what I'm writing. My logs take a little planning and consideration, and I'm not going to do that in the field.

 

Alternatively, I'm not going to wait until I get home to log anything because then I'd have to keep a separate list of everything I found during the day. That's nuts. On my GPSr, I use Field Notes, which as we know automates everything except the actual log-text composition. On my phone, I use "More Later" logs.

 

I'm sorry if I'm not fulfilling a CO's desire for instant gratification. If the problem is that some people never go back and fulfill their promise of "More Later", then shame on them.

 

The point isn't to make you feel like you need to defend a benign practice that is within the rules.

 

The point is that your benign logging practice isn't better or worse than someone else's equally benign, but different logging process.

Edited February 23, 2017 by narcissa

[+TeamRabbitRun]

 

<...>

 

IMHO, terse "more later" logs are at least as discourteous as single-word "TFTC" logs. At least single-word "TFTC" logs are up front about their lack of content. Terse "more later" logs tease you with the possibility of additional content, at some undisclosed point in the future, as long as you go out of your way to find it, assuming you go out of your way to find it after it has been added, assuming that it is ever actually added.

 

(Worms, worms, worms everywhere!)

 

Sorry you feel this way. Now that I'm caching with my phone, I file "More later" logs (worded differently) and fill them in when I get home to a keyboard.

• 
   
  
• My logs are doubly-targeted: At the CO, to get whatever they choose to get from finds (I love reading logs for my hides), and
  
• Future seekers
  

 

Therefore, they take some thought.

 

I'm not going to stand out there single-fingering a rushed log, misspelling words and let auto-correct mess up what I'm writing. My logs take a little planning and consideration, and I'm not going to do that in the field.

 

Alternatively, I'm not going to wait until I get home to log anything because then I'd have to keep a separate list of everything I found during the day. That's nuts. On my GPSr, I use Field Notes, which as we know automates everything except the actual log-text composition. On my phone, I use "More Later" logs.

 

I'm sorry if I'm not fulfilling a CO's desire for instant gratification. If the problem is that some people never go back and fulfill their promise of "More Later", then shame on them.

 

The point isn't to make you feel like you need to defend a benign practice that is within the rules.

 

The point is that your benign logging practice isn't better or worse than someone else's equally benign, but different logging process.

 

I don't feel like I need to defend anything. I'm just giving my point of view, in response to niraD.

[+nutlady]

I don't know what else to say. I think Nutlady has all the information she needs. She has been assured she is doing nothing wrong. She has also been given some suggestions of things she COULD do. It is really down to her now. If she is reassured by the fact she is doing nothing wrong, then great. If she still feels bad and wants to do something else, she has been given ideas.

 

What Nutlady REALLY would like to do, is to shut this thread down! But I could not find that option. I got some great replies and ideas, thank you all.

[Pup Patrol]

I don't know what else to say. I think Nutlady has all the information she needs. She has been assured she is doing nothing wrong. She has also been given some suggestions of things she COULD do. It is really down to her now. If she is reassured by the fact she is doing nothing wrong, then great. If she still feels bad and wants to do something else, she has been given ideas.

 

What Nutlady REALLY would like to do, is to shut this thread down! But I could not find that option. I got some great replies and ideas, thank you all.

 

Speaking in the third-person?

 

Go to your original post, click on the "report" button, and ask a moderator to close the thread.

 

B.

[+nutlady]

I don't know what else to say. I think Nutlady has all the information she needs. She has been assured she is doing nothing wrong. She has also been given some suggestions of things she COULD do. It is really down to her now. If she is reassured by the fact she is doing nothing wrong, then great. If she still feels bad and wants to do something else, she has been given ideas.

 

What Nutlady REALLY would like to do, is to shut this thread down! But I could not find that option. I got some great replies and ideas, thank you all.

 

Speaking in the third-person?

 

Go to your original post, click on the "report" button, and ask a moderator to close the thread.

 

B.

Thank you, too! I am not forum " savy"....

[Keystone]

I am closing this thread at the topic starter's request.