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Chofman1

Do all Geocaches have to contain a physical log to sign?

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Do all Geocaches have to contain a physical log to sign?

 

Yes, except for a few specific types; EarthCaches and EventCaches I think are the only ones still allowed to be created that do not require physical logs to sign. Events usually have one, but it's not required.

 

What do you have in mind of trying to do?

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Well i found one a while back that was a magnet that said high voltage on an electric box. On the back it said, this is the cache, no log to sign. It gave me the idea to do a twist on one ive seen in my area. It was a magnetic nano with a log under the bottom edge of a fire hydrant. The one im proposing is a flat magnet, written on it, This is the cache.

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Well i found one a while back that was a magnet that said high voltage on an electric box. On the back it said, this is the cache, no log to sign. It gave me the idea to do a twist on one ive seen in my area. It was a magnetic nano with a log under the bottom edge of a fire hydrant. The one im proposing is a flat magnet, written on it, This is the cache.

Curious, didn't you ever read the guidelines?

One of the basic requirements is a log and container.

 

If someone ever reported it, it'd be temp-disabled by a Reviewer (for not having a log or container), giving the CO time to "fix" it.

Doubtful the Reviewer knew of this when it was published.

Some odd reason, caches like this (that break guidelines) seem to be the ones getting favorites too...

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Well i found one a while back that was a magnet that said high voltage on an electric box. On the back it said, this is the cache, no log to sign. It gave me the idea to do a twist on one ive seen in my area. It was a magnetic nano with a log under the bottom edge of a fire hydrant. The one im proposing is a flat magnet, written on it, This is the cache.

The one's I've seen of a similar design were flat magnets with a plastic sleeve containing the logsheet. The one you found and referenced in your original post does not sound consistent with the intent of the Guidelines.

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Well i found one a while back that was a magnet that said high voltage on an electric box. On the back it said, this is the cache, no log to sign. It gave me the idea to do a twist on one ive seen in my area. It was a magnetic nano with a log under the bottom edge of a fire hydrant. The one im proposing is a flat magnet, written on it, This is the cache.

Curious, didn't you ever read the guidelines?

One of the basic requirements is a log and container.

 

If someone ever reported it, it'd be temp-disabled by a Reviewer (for not having a log or container), giving the CO time to "fix" it.

Doubtful the Reviewer knew of this when it was published.

Some odd reason, caches like this (that break guidelines) seem to be the ones getting favorites too...

 

exactly. think i'll start using 'favorited' as a filter to find cool caches. it's so much more fun to be surprised by a rule-bender, instead of just another pill bottle with a log.

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Well i found one a while back that was a magnet that said high voltage on an electric box. On the back it said, this is the cache, no log to sign. It gave me the idea to do a twist on one ive seen in my area. It was a magnetic nano with a log under the bottom edge of a fire hydrant. The one im proposing is a flat magnet, written on it, This is the cache.

Curious, didn't you ever read the guidelines?

One of the basic requirements is a log and container.

 

If someone ever reported it, it'd be temp-disabled by a Reviewer (for not having a log or container), giving the CO time to "fix" it.

Doubtful the Reviewer knew of this when it was published.

Some odd reason, caches like this (that break guidelines) seem to be the ones getting favorites too...

 

exactly. think i'll start using 'favorited' as a filter to find cool caches. it's so much more fun to be surprised by a rule-bender, instead of just another pill bottle with a log.

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The log may have gone missing.

 

The fact that the CO (I assume) wrote "this is the cache. no log to sign" implies that it never had a log sheet. Even if it did, if it doesn't have a container and a log sheet now, it still violates the guidelines. As was suggested, putting a plastic sleeve on the back of a magnetic sheet is a common way to set up that kind of cache and doesn't change the "coolness" factor. That said, we really don't won't reviewers (nor to the reviewers) making a subjective decision for whether a cache is allowed based upon whether or not it was perceived to be cool or not. Imagine what would happen if a reviewer wouldn't publish a cache because it wasn't cool enough.

 

I doubt that GS would ever consider changing the guideline to all a physical cache without a log sheet. Signing the physical log has been an integral part of geocaching since in inception in 2000. In cases where people have violated the guidelines and placed a cache without a log sheet, some cachers will sign the container, a sign, or other object. Allowing caches without a log sheet could turn into a land manager nightmare.

 

 

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Well i found one a while back that was a magnet that said high voltage on an electric box. On the back it said, this is the cache, no log to sign. It gave me the idea to do a twist on one ive seen in my area. It was a magnetic nano with a log under the bottom edge of a fire hydrant. The one im proposing is a flat magnet, written on it, This is the cache.

Curious, didn't you ever read the guidelines?

One of the basic requirements is a log and container.

 

If someone ever reported it, it'd be temp-disabled by a Reviewer (for not having a log or container), giving the CO time to "fix" it.

Doubtful the Reviewer knew of this when it was published.

Some odd reason, caches like this (that break guidelines) seem to be the ones getting favorites too...

 

I did read the guidelines and some seem to be somewhat open ended as to let the geocacher form his or her own opinion of what they mean and/or are contradictory.

For example 1)The cache placement is in an area that is highly sensitive to additional foot and/or vehicular traffic including, but not limited to, archaeological sites, historical sites and cemeteries. Note that some cemeteries permit cache placement.2)use common sense when selecting hiding places and containers.

 

"For all physical caches, there must be a logbook, scroll or other type of log for geocachers to record their visit."(one could assume any other type of log could be the log on the app)

 

While we are on topic about the guidelines, this quote is taken from the first sentence after the introduction, "When you go to hide a geocache, think of the reason you are bringing people to that spot. If the only reason is for the geocache, then find a better spot." – briansnat I wonder how many LPC's that take you to the back of a kroger parking lot should have not been published. I mean, really, you brought me to a kroger?!

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"For all physical caches, there must be a logbook, scroll or other type of log for geocachers to record their visit." (one could assume any other type of log could be the log on the app)

 

That would be an erroneous assumption, and one could figure out with a bit of homework.

 

While we are on topic about the guidelines, this quote is taken from the first sentence after the introduction, "When you go to hide a geocache, think of the reason you are bringing people to that spot. If the only reason is for the geocache, then find a better spot." – briansnat I wonder how many LPC's that take you to the back of a kroger parking lot should have not been published. I mean, really, you brought me to a kroger?!

 

Taken out of context like you did, yes, it would seem that caches are Reviewed on quality. This is not case.

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What's usually in a cache?

In its simplest form, a cache always contains a logbook or logsheet for you to log your find. Larger caches may contain a logbook and any number of items. These items turn the adventure into a true treasure hunt. You never know what the cache owner or visitors to the cache may have left for you to enjoy. Remember, if you take something, leave something of equal or greater value in return. It is recommended that items in a cache be individually packaged in a clear, zipped plastic bag to protect them from the elements.

 

This is from Geocaching101 which is what I read when we began. Seems pretty cut and dry to me. But, I don't know where you're getting info.

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"For all physical caches, there must be a logbook, scroll or other type of log for geocachers to record their visit."(one could assume any other type of log could be the log on the app)
The "other type of log" needs to be something physical in the cache that the finder can sign. Another example would be a dive slate, which might be used for a scuba cache.

 

Keyword caches are no longer allowed. Virtual caches are no longer allowed. The only exceptions now are the ones listed in the first reply, which was posted by NanCycle.

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Bottom line, physical caches need a log. I have seen magnet caches like this get archived when the reviewer discovered that the cache didn't have a log.

 

I have seen one or two where a flat magnet covers a single Rite in the Rain (or your choice of waterproof paper) sheet, so that there is no bulge to give the cache away. This might make it a little more labor intense to maintain, but it's food for thought.

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I've found a cache that was a large high voltage magnet, but when you turned it over you signed the back of the magnet. The cache was the log. It was about 8" by 10" so it had a lot of room for signatures. As far as I know no-one ever complained about it.I would think that having a designated area to sign falls under the guideline "...or other type of log for geocachers to record their visit."

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I've found a cache that was a large high voltage magnet, but when you turned it over you signed the back of the magnet. The cache was the log. It was about 8" by 10" so it had a lot of room for signatures. As far as I know no-one ever complained about it.I would think that having a designated area to sign falls under the guideline "...or other type of log for geocachers to record their visit."

When I find caches like this as a player, I'm obligated to take action under my reviewer account. It's simple to avoid that unpleasant result by slipping in a sheet of Rite in the Rain paper that can be replaced when full.

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Okay, just have to mention it for the new players reading here.

 

AVOID AT ALL COST caches that say "HIGH VOLTAGE" or anything like that.

 

It's not specifically against the guidelines, but if caches on dangerous equipment are common, then people will mess with High Voltage equipment and get killed! Caching!

 

There are tons of stories about caches, to quote a relatively minor example, in fake sprinkler heads that lead people to destroy REAL sprinkler heads.

 

Stay away from ANY utility equipment. What would you think if you saw someone poking around power connections or gas lines without any reason to be there? Call the cops?

 

There are plenty of other places to hide things without putting people at risk, no matter how 'cool' it might seem.

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I've found a cache that was a large high voltage magnet, but when you turned it over you signed the back of the magnet. The cache was the log. It was about 8" by 10" so it had a lot of room for signatures. As far as I know no-one ever complained about it.I would think that having a designated area to sign falls under the guideline "...or other type of log for geocachers to record their visit."

When I find caches like this as a player, I'm obligated to take action under my reviewer account. It's simple to avoid that unpleasant result by slipping in a sheet of Rite in the Rain paper that can be replaced when full.

 

Keystone, what's wrong with this?

If the back of the magnetic sheet is the log, then the CO can come clean it off or replace the magsheet when it's full. How is this functionally different than a CO coming and replacing a log (and throwing away the old one) on a 'conventional' cache?

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I've found a cache that was a large high voltage magnet, but when you turned it over you signed the back of the magnet. The cache was the log. It was about 8" by 10" so it had a lot of room for signatures. As far as I know no-one ever complained about it.I would think that having a designated area to sign falls under the guideline "...or other type of log for geocachers to record their visit."

When I find caches like this as a player, I'm obligated to take action under my reviewer account. It's simple to avoid that unpleasant result by slipping in a sheet of Rite in the Rain paper that can be replaced when full.

 

Keystone, what's wrong with this?

If the back of the magnetic sheet is the log, then the CO can come clean it off or replace the magsheet when it's full. How is this functionally different than a CO coming and replacing a log (and throwing away the old one) on a 'conventional' cache?

I seem to recall something that says that a cache should contain a log. By your reasoning we need not put a log in a lock'n'lock or ammo can but just sign it (the container) and that's good enough?

Edited by colleda

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If sign-an-item caches were allowed, some cachers will strip a log and throw it in the forest then instruct people to sign the "log". (BTW it happened , before the rule needed to be made).

Some cache owners would never replace a log, just sign the container.

Some finders will think they found the cache and sign whatever's near ground zero.

I've witnessed finders sign the inside of a Little Free Library when the cache went missing. Wasn't even the cacher's Little Free Library.

Geocachers, give 'em an envelope, and they will push it.

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If sign-an-item caches were allowed, some cachers will strip a log and throw it in the forest then instruct people to sign the "log". (BTW it happened , before the rule needed to be made).

Some cache owners would never replace a log, just sign the container.

Some finders will think they found the cache and sign whatever's near ground zero.

I've witnessed finders sign the inside of a Little Free Library when the cache went missing. Wasn't even the cacher's Little Free Library.

Geocachers, give 'em an envelope, and they will push it.

+1

I'm kinda happy that guidelines are a bit clearer now, and don't understand how some still don't get it.

When we first started, we found a few similar, a lotta car parts, even an aluminum pie plate once.

One in particular, a 18x18 aluminum square plate on a stake, was in a trail crossing a field.

We were told to use a crayon, grease pencil, or similar to sign.

Turned out that "blank" plate used to have a gas pipeline sticker covering it...

Haven't found any lately that are that bad, but then we don't do 95% of the caches out these days either. :)

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If sign-an-item caches were allowed, some cachers will strip a log and throw it in the forest then instruct people to sign the "log". (BTW it happened , before the rule needed to be made).

Some cache owners would never replace a log, just sign the container.

Some finders will think they found the cache and sign whatever's near ground zero.

I've witnessed finders sign the inside of a Little Free Library when the cache went missing. Wasn't even the cacher's Little Free Library.

Geocachers, give 'em an envelope, and they will push it.

 

Sounds like the cool caches !

 

Seeing a log with signatures on it would have made me lol and improved the day for sure!

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I've found a cache that was a large high voltage magnet, but when you turned it over you signed the back of the magnet. The cache was the log. It was about 8" by 10" so it had a lot of room for signatures. As far as I know no-one ever complained about it.I would think that having a designated area to sign falls under the guideline "...or other type of log for geocachers to record their visit."

When I find caches like this as a player, I'm obligated to take action under my reviewer account. It's simple to avoid that unpleasant result by slipping in a sheet of Rite in the Rain paper that can be replaced when full.

 

Keystone, what's wrong with this?

If the back of the magnetic sheet is the log, then the CO can come clean it off or replace the magsheet when it's full. How is this functionally different than a CO coming and replacing a log (and throwing away the old one) on a 'conventional' cache?

I seem to recall something that says that a cache should contain a log. By your reasoning we need not put a log in a lock'n'lock or ammo can but just sign it (the container) and that's good enough?

 

Actually, the language in the Geocache Listing *Requirements*/Guidelines is stronger than that:

 

"For all physical caches, there must be a logbook, scroll or other type of log for geocachers to record their visit."

The fact that "must" is used rather than "should" indicates that this is a requirement, not just a guideline.

 

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I've found a cache that was a large high voltage magnet, but when you turned it over you signed the back of the magnet. The cache was the log. It was about 8" by 10" so it had a lot of room for signatures. As far as I know no-one ever complained about it.I would think that having a designated area to sign falls under the guideline "...or other type of log for geocachers to record their visit."

When I find caches like this as a player, I'm obligated to take action under my reviewer account. It's simple to avoid that unpleasant result by slipping in a sheet of Rite in the Rain paper that can be replaced when full.

 

Keystone, what's wrong with this?

If the back of the magnetic sheet is the log, then the CO can come clean it off or replace the magsheet when it's full. How is this functionally different than a CO coming and replacing a log (and throwing away the old one) on a 'conventional' cache?

I seem to recall something that says that a cache should contain a log. By your reasoning we need not put a log in a lock'n'lock or ammo can but just sign it (the container) and that's good enough?

 

I guess it's also a matter of how you define 'container'. Does it have to be an enclosed device that holds a separate item that you sign?

 

I've seen approved caches that don't meet that strict definition.

 

What about a Library cache where you have to find a book on a shelf, and you sign a page? Is this no good because the 'container' is actually connected to the log? What if it was a loose-leaf book instead, where you could open the rings and take the pages out? Would that be better, or does it have to be actual loose pages in a binder? In that case, does the definition also mean "must be able to freely spill the log and contents out when you upend it"?

 

My point is that with scrutinous review, a 'container' can be a conceptual container. As I've always found so far in MY travels through the game, the reviewers (those dogs!) have applied a reasonable amount of interpretation to the guidelines AND the requirements to stay well within the spirit of the game.

 

That being said, I should also say that I'm a "Rules are Rules" kinda guy, but obviously not to the extent of being pedantic.

Edited by TeamRabbitRun

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"For all physical caches, there must be a logbook, scroll or other type of log for geocachers to record their visit."

The fact that "must" is used rather than "should" indicates that this is a requirement, not just a guideline.

 

...

or other type of log for geocachers to record their visit

...

 

OK then, that covers writing on the magnet.

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I've found a cache that was a large high voltage magnet, but when you turned it over you signed the back of the magnet. The cache was the log. It was about 8" by 10" so it had a lot of room for signatures. As far as I know no-one ever complained about it.I would think that having a designated area to sign falls under the guideline "...or other type of log for geocachers to record their visit."

When I find caches like this as a player, I'm obligated to take action under my reviewer account. It's simple to avoid that unpleasant result by slipping in a sheet of Rite in the Rain paper that can be replaced when full.

 

Keystone, what's wrong with this?

If the back of the magnetic sheet is the log, then the CO can come clean it off or replace the magsheet when it's full. How is this functionally different than a CO coming and replacing a log (and throwing away the old one) on a 'conventional' cache?

We've seen caches with this issue before, and most seemed to be "good" again with the Reviewer after simply sticking a baggy to the back, with a log strip inside.

- Though I'm not Keystone, who'd have a more formal answer. :)

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I've seen approved caches that don't meet that strict definition.
I've seen published caches with any number of guideline violations. That doesn't mean that the volunteer reviewer sanctioned the guideline violations. Unless the CO details the guideline violations in the Reviewer Notes, it's unlikely that the volunteer reviewer will even know about them before the cache is published.

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...

or other type of log for geocachers to record their visit

...

 

OK then, that covers writing on the magnet.

Except that the guidelines are currently being interpreted as requiring a log that is somehow separate from the container. A scrap of paper behind a magnet has both a container (the magnet) and a log (the scrap of paper contained between the magnet and the surface). A magnet that you sign the back of has only one (take your pick: the magnet is either the container or the log, but not both).

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...

or other type of log for geocachers to record their visit

...

 

OK then, that covers writing on the magnet.

Except that the guidelines are currently being interpreted as requiring a log that is somehow separate from the container. A scrap of paper behind a magnet has both a container (the magnet) and a log (the scrap of paper contained between the magnet and the surface). A magnet that you sign the back of has only one (take your pick: the magnet is either the container or the log, but not both).

 

Darin, I'm seeing a distinction without a difference.

 

I see how that could be made ridiculous by lazy CO's who'll just put a (tree)log in the woods to sign, but as long as there's a conceptual 'container' and a 'log' to sign (and my "treelog" example fails this test) I don't see the problem.

 

Now, some rules/guidelines in every field are implemented because it's just too hard to enforce a fine subjective point, as with the 'coolitude' of Virtual Caches, which is one of the reasons they're no longer allowed, so if that's the case here, so be it.

 

So, can we hear from a reviewer, please?

 

As always, if TPTB via a reviewer says "No", then it's "No", but I'd like to hear this discussion.

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So, can we hear from a reviewer, please?
You mean like this?
When I find caches like this as a player, I'm obligated to take action under my reviewer account. It's simple to avoid that unpleasant result by slipping in a sheet of Rite in the Rain paper that can be replaced when full.

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So, can we hear from a reviewer, please?
You mean like this?
When I find caches like this as a player, I'm obligated to take action under my reviewer account. It's simple to avoid that unpleasant result by slipping in a sheet of Rite in the Rain paper that can be replaced when full.

 

Well, yeah, I guess so, but I was hoping for a comment after mine that would discuss the rationale.

 

Not being argumentative here, just discussing.

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I like this comment from Sky King 69 way back in 2011 when someone asked about using a USB as a logbook...

 

"People are funny. At work, right after the memo comes out reminding people not to dress quite so casually... the next day a woman shows up wearing only leggings and nothing over them, and someone else wears flip-flops. There's the guy in shorts, the woman with the insane cleavage... It all comes out the day after the memo because people just have this innate need to test limits. The day after you do diversity training, there's always ten guys who have to resurrect their ancient sexist or racist joke. And so it is with caching. You read the guidelines and the "intent" of the guidelines seems so blatantly obvious. Sure, if you want to create artificial grey areas by carefully word-smithing each and every sentence looking for loopholes, you will certainly succeed. But there's a certain intellectual dishonesty in pretending the intent isn't obvious. If you read the guidelines looking for consistency, you will find it. If you read them looking for loopholes to exploit, you will find them too."

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So, can we hear from a reviewer, please?
You mean like this?
When I find caches like this as a player, I'm obligated to take action under my reviewer account. It's simple to avoid that unpleasant result by slipping in a sheet of Rite in the Rain paper that can be replaced when full.

To muddy the waters further, the interpretation used by Keystone isn't universal. For example, the reviewers in my region have deemed magnetic sheets with paper glued on the back (ie. not in a bag) to be acceptable. I don't know if there's a chapter on these caches in the super secret reviewer handbook, but at least in this respect it seems like there's some inconsistency between reviewers.

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...someone asked about using a USB as a logbook...

Of course, you can. You'll just have to swap it out frequently because not many people will be able to write their name on the outside of it before it gets full. :laughing:

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I don't know if there's a chapter on these caches in the super secret reviewer handbook...

There is, and I'm conveying that advice accurately. All reviewers have been advised in writing that a "magnet only" design is unacceptable, while a magnet that encloses a separate log sheet is acceptable. If your local reviewer chooses to disregard the written guidance, then yay for your area. Makes my job harder, though.

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...

or other type of log for geocachers to record their visit

...

 

OK then, that covers writing on the magnet.

Except that the guidelines are currently being interpreted as requiring a log that is somehow separate from the container. A scrap of paper behind a magnet has both a container (the magnet) and a log (the scrap of paper contained between the magnet and the surface). A magnet that you sign the back of has only one (take your pick: the magnet is either the container or the log, but not both).

 

Oh , well there's a rule that makes a world of difference, lol. I'm not knocking YOU at all, is just very funny how insignificant some things are.

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...

or other type of log for geocachers to record their visit

...

 

OK then, that covers writing on the magnet.

Except that the guidelines are currently being interpreted as requiring a log that is somehow separate from the container. A scrap of paper behind a magnet has both a container (the magnet) and a log (the scrap of paper contained between the magnet and the surface). A magnet that you sign the back of has only one (take your pick: the magnet is either the container or the log, but not both).

 

Oh , well there's a rule that makes a world of difference, lol. I'm not knocking YOU at all, is just very funny how insignificant some things are.

Well, "insignificant" to some. Years ago there was an incident that provoked some outrage from a few cache owners, when a small number of Finders were signing the outside of the containers in an effort to "streamline" the process. The result of that fiasco has become the topic of this thread.

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Well i found one a while back that was a magnet that said high voltage on an electric box. On the back it said, this is the cache, no log to sign. It gave me the idea to do a twist on one ive seen in my area. It was a magnetic nano with a log under the bottom edge of a fire hydrant. The one im proposing is a flat magnet, written on it, This is the cache.

Fire hydrant! In my area highly unlawful

To hide on a Fire hydrant. Our reviewers

Reject any like that.

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