+Pocono-Pirate Posted June 13, 2016 Posted June 13, 2016 I've been trying to publish a cache. I get that it can not be buried. But I feel that I'm getting a little ripped off here. There is an existing pvc tube sticking out of the ground about 16 inches. (With permission of owner) My cache container is a bison tube that sits just below the top of the tube. The reviewer is saying it's considered a buried cache. I don't understand how this is considered buried. If that's the case, every telephone pole, fence post, or street sign should be considered buried in my eyes. Am I wrong here? I need some insight. Here are links to photos of the cache. http://postimg.org/image/ru1el6yz3/ http://postimg.org/image/ibnewjs7j/ Quote
+narcissa Posted June 13, 2016 Posted June 13, 2016 I don't know about the buried issue but that's obviously a bad place for a cache. Quote
+niraD Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 Nothing that is written in the forums will change anything. If you want to appeal your volunteer reviewer's decision, then you need to appeal to Groundspeak, not to us. For reference, see the Help Center article Required Information for Appeal Submission. Quote
+Pocono-Pirate Posted June 14, 2016 Author Posted June 14, 2016 I would still like some insight. Trying to understand. Quote
+Pocono-Pirate Posted June 14, 2016 Author Posted June 14, 2016 So much for a friendly community Quote
+L0ne.R Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 (edited) I don't know about the buried issue but that's obviously a bad place for a cache. +1 Is the home owner OK with people opening that utility box? Are they OK with cachers showing up at 3am in the morning? Cachers might even pry at the siding. Many, if not most don't read the description or the hint, until they can't find the cache. Edited June 14, 2016 by L0ne.R Quote
+TriciaG Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 If the pipe is pre-existing and wasn't put into the ground for the sake of the cache, it should be okay per the guidelines. However, some reviewers might err on the side of caution and reject it on the fear that someone might see the cache, think it's a great idea, and actually dig a pipe into the ground to place a cache. Your best bet is to go to appeals, as niraD suggested, and make it clear that the pipe was already there. Quote
+niraD Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 I would still like some insight. Trying to understand.I'm not sure how much insight I can offer. I don't understand how it can be a violation of the "no digging" guideline, given that the PVC pipe was already there. There may be other issues with the location or hide style (as indicated by some of the other replies). But that isn't really related to the "no digging" guideline cited. Of course, I have access to only one side of the story, so take my comments with a grain of salt... Quote
+krisandmel Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 (edited) So much for a friendly community Who's not being friendly? You asked a question at 6:39pm, you don't like the first opinion(s) you get, so you ask for more info just 39 minutes later at 7:18pm and then also at 7:18 you followup with another post that this community is unfriendly. Not a great way to get people to jump to your defense/aid. The person that said it doesn't matter what is said here, is right. They weren't jerking you around. Fact is, ONLY what the reviewer/GS decides is what goes. Yes, the forum can be helpful for learning about why GS decides what goes/no-goes, but nothing said here gives any leverage in any way to a dispute. Even if you've seen other cache's EXACTLY like what you're considering, GS states in their guidelines that there is no precedent in geocache placement. EVERY cache is decided on its own merit, or lack thereof. Hope that was helpful. Edited June 14, 2016 by krisandmel Quote
+Manville Possum Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 I would still like some insight. Trying to understand. Could you change the container to a magnetic one and place it on that metal piece next to the PVC pipe? Problem solved. Quote
+SeattleWayne Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 I like this forum. Opinions are given straight. I don't understand how anything text related could be taken as unfriendly. Quote
Keystone Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 I've been trying to publish a cache. I get that it can not be buried. But I feel that I'm getting a little ripped off here. There is an existing pvc tube sticking out of the ground about 16 inches. (With permission of owner) My cache container is a bison tube that sits just below the top of the tube. The reviewer is saying it's considered a buried cache. I don't understand how this is considered buried. If that's the case, every telephone pole, fence post, or street sign should be considered buried in my eyes. Am I wrong here? I need some insight. Here are links to photos of the cache. http://postimg.org/image/ru1el6yz3/ http://postimg.org/image/ibnewjs7j/ Is this cache hidden under your account? I only see one cache submission from you that hasn't been published. It was archived at your request and the facts don't square with your post. It would help greatly to know which cache we're talking about. Quote
+T.D.M.22 Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 (edited) Wouldn't it be better to ask for clarification from the reviewer rather than here? After all who knows better what someone is thinking or why they did something than that person? We can only guess based on the information you give us (which historically here is usually incomplete, or just way off what really happened.) Edited June 14, 2016 by T.D.M.22 Quote
+cerberus1 Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 If the pipe is pre-existing and wasn't put into the ground for the sake of the cache, it should be okay per the guidelines. However, some reviewers might err on the side of caution and reject it on the fear that someone might see the cache, think it's a great idea, and actually dig a pipe into the ground to place a cache. Your best bet is to go to appeals, as niraD suggested, and make it clear that the pipe was already there. +1 We've seen a lot of hides similar, though guidelines do say... "Please be advised that there is no precedent for placing geocaches. This means that the past publication of a similar geocache in and of itself is not a valid justification for the publication of a new geocache". After our first spotted, like most we've seen that break guidelines, every newb in the area had to have one at some point. So yeah, we've seen quite a few instances of monkey see/do hides. Quote
curlingfan11 Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 "Geocaches are never buried, neither partially nor completely. If one has to dig or create a hole in the ground when placing or finding a geocache, it is not allowed." My link Quote
Pup Patrol Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 "Geocaches are never buried, neither partially nor completely. If one has to dig or create a hole in the ground when placing or finding a geocache, it is not allowed." My link The OP did not dig or create a hole. I've been trying to publish a cache. I get that it can not be buried. But I feel that I'm getting a little ripped off here. There is an existing pvc tube sticking out of the ground about 16 inches. (With permission of owner) My cache container is a bison tube that sits just below the top of the tube. The reviewer is saying it's considered a buried cache. I don't understand how this is considered buried. If that's the case, every telephone pole, fence post, or street sign should be considered buried in my eyes. Am I wrong here? I need some insight. Here are links to photos of the cache. http://postimg.org/image/ru1el6yz3/ http://postimg.org/image/ibnewjs7j/ B. Quote
+Touchstone Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 (edited) Sounds like a simple misunderstanding. There might be other issues with the placement, but I'd suggest going back and having a conversation with the Reviewer. How you've described the hide, would understandably raise many red flags in my area. So called, "fake sprinkler" caches are placed in such pvc pipes that are either pounded or excavated to be flush with the surface of the surrounding ground. When you use the phrase "sticking out of the ground", the idea of "buried" immediately comes to my mind as well. For future reference, as Keystone pointed out, please post under the account with which you submitted the Listing. Being both a Reviewer and a Moderator, Keystone and other Reviewers that lurk on the Forum can probably give you some additional insight to the issue, and help guide you in a successful conclusion, if some path forward does exist. The so called, "friendly community" can be a much friendlier place if full disclosure and more complete information is provided from the outset. Edited June 14, 2016 by Touchstone Quote
+redsox_mark Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 Yes it sounds like a misunderstanding. Have you explained and sent those photos to the reviewer? It doesn't mean it will be published; it could be that the reviewer has other objections. But attaching it to an existing pipe should not be an issue with the "Geocaches are never buried" guideline. Quote
+OReviewer Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 http://postimg.org/image/ru1el6yz3/http://postimg.org/image/ibnewjs7j/ The container is a bison tube inside a fake sprinkler head. Cachers will be able to spot the cache at ground level. open the cache sign the log. Your listing mentions a fake sprinkler head as the container. If this is placed into the ground at all, it is a "buried cache" and not publishable. More information may be found at: https://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx? I moved the cache to a better place at the same location and updated the coordinates.The cache is a bison tube with a magnet attached. The bison tube is in a pvc pipe placed next to a shed. The cacher may have to use a key or other metal object to retrieve the cache. Thanks for the response and information. Please send more details about the PVC pipe, I'm not sure I understand fully what you are talking about. Is this pipe in the ground? The PVC pipe is sticking about 16 inches out of the ground next to other similar pipes. The bison tube is just below the top of the PVC pipe.I added a links to photos of the cache. http://postimg.org/image/ru1el6yz3/ http://postimg.org/image/ibnewjs7j/ Thank you very much for your response, information and honesty.I'm sorry, but this is a "buried cache" under the guidelines. So I see where the error came from and I understand why the reviewer (not me) said what s/he said. The onus is on you to explain that the PVC pipe was there to begin with and that you didn't place it. Not once did you say that, even after the last exchange. S/he has no reason to think you are lying. Styles differ from reviewer to reviewer. Some may have asked you if you placed the pipe. S/he didn't and you haven't said you didn't. Try saying that and maybe it will be published. Quote
+Mudfrog Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 I don't know about the buried issue but that's obviously a bad place for a cache. +1 Is the home owner OK with people opening that utility box? Are they OK with cachers showing up at 3am in the morning? Cachers might even pry at the siding. Many, if not most don't read the description or the hint, until they can't find the cache. The OP says he has permission. You're right that the property owner might not realize what they're in for but the bottom line is that they did give it. I doubt the reviewer is concerned much about this at this point. Going by what's been stated in this thread, it sounds like a misunderstanding that can be worked out. Quote
+L0ne.R Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 I moved the cache to a better place at the same location and updated the coordinates.The cache is a bison tube with a magnet attached. The bison tube is in a pvc pipe placed next to a shed. The cacher may have to use a key or other metal object to retrieve the cache. If a tool is required, that junction box will get tampered with. It's the first place I would look if the cache description said a tool was required. Quote
+narcissa Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 http://postimg.org/image/ru1el6yz3/http://postimg.org/image/ibnewjs7j/ The container is a bison tube inside a fake sprinkler head. Cachers will be able to spot the cache at ground level. open the cache sign the log. Your listing mentions a fake sprinkler head as the container. If this is placed into the ground at all, it is a "buried cache" and not publishable. More information may be found at: https://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx? I moved the cache to a better place at the same location and updated the coordinates.The cache is a bison tube with a magnet attached. The bison tube is in a pvc pipe placed next to a shed. The cacher may have to use a key or other metal object to retrieve the cache. Thanks for the response and information. Please send more details about the PVC pipe, I'm not sure I understand fully what you are talking about. Is this pipe in the ground? The PVC pipe is sticking about 16 inches out of the ground next to other similar pipes. The bison tube is just below the top of the PVC pipe.I added a links to photos of the cache. http://postimg.org/image/ru1el6yz3/ http://postimg.org/image/ibnewjs7j/ Thank you very much for your response, information and honesty.I'm sorry, but this is a "buried cache" under the guidelines. So I see where the error came from and I understand why the reviewer (not me) said what s/he said. The onus is on you to explain that the PVC pipe was there to begin with and that you didn't place it. Not once did you say that, even after the last exchange. S/he has no reason to think you are lying. Styles differ from reviewer to reviewer. Some may have asked you if you placed the pipe. S/he didn't and you haven't said you didn't. Try saying that and maybe it will be published. I think there's a good chance it will still run afoul of the guidelines because of the risk of damage to the surroundings. Permission doesn't matter with hides like this that are likely to result in destruction to the property. Quote
+The A-Team Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 (edited) I think there's a good chance it will still run afoul of the guidelines because of the risk of damage to the surroundings. Permission doesn't matter with hides like this that are likely to result in destruction to the property. I agree. Even if the "buried" part gets sorted out, which it sounds like can happen if the owner provides all relevant information to the reviewer, it still isn't a good hiding spot. Like L0ne.R said, the electrical box WILL get tampered with. I'd bet money on it, especially if you say that tools will be required. If the property owner is fine with that, then go ahead and continue with trying to get the cache published. Somehow I doubt they would be, though. Edited June 14, 2016 by The A-Team Quote
+niraD Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 I missed something. Where did the OP indicate that the Bison tube would require a tool? Quote
+narcissa Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 I missed something. Where did the OP indicate that the Bison tube would require a tool? In the reviewer information we learned: "The cacher may have to use a key or other metal object to retrieve the cache." Quote
+The A-Team Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 I missed something. Where did the OP indicate that the Bison tube would require a tool? In the reviewer information we learned: "The cacher may have to use a key or other metal object to retrieve the cache." Granted we don't know if the description would say anything about tools. Even still, I bet some people would fiddle with the legitimate electrical equipment. Quote
+niraD Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 (edited) I missed something. Where did the OP indicate that the Bison tube would require a tool?In the reviewer information we learned: "The cacher may have to use a key or other metal object to retrieve the cache."Ah, got it. Thanks. And FWIW, none of the keys in my pocket are magnetic (I just checked), so the "use a key" suggestion won't work if the mechanism relies on the attached magnet. Of course, I've got plenty of other things that are magnetic, including my Leatherman Micra, which IIRC came in handy for the most recent "magnet in a PVC tube" cache I found. Edited June 14, 2016 by niraD Quote
+narcissa Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 I missed something. Where did the OP indicate that the Bison tube would require a tool?In the reviewer information we learned: "The cacher may have to use a key or other metal object to retrieve the cache."Ah, got it. Thanks. And FWIW, none of the keys in my pocket are magnetic (I just checked), so the "use a key" suggestion won't work if the mechanism relies on the attached magnet. Of course, I've got plenty of other things that are magnetic, including my Leatherman Micra, which IIRC came in handy for the most recent "magnet in a PVC tube" cache I found. That's a good point. I think most keys are brass, nickel, or aluminum. Quote
+Mudfrog Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 I think there's a good chance it will still run afoul of the guidelines because of the risk of damage to the surroundings. Permission doesn't matter with hides like this that are likely to result in destruction to the property. I agree. Even if the "buried" part gets sorted out, which it sounds like can happen if the owner provides all relevant information to the reviewer, it still isn't a good hiding spot. Like L0ne.R said, the electrical box WILL get tampered with. I'd bet money on it, especially if you say that tools will be required. If the property owner is fine with that, then go ahead and continue with trying to get the cache published. Somehow I doubt they would be, though. I agree in that i too do not think it is a good spot for a cache. But, i have run across many many caches placed in these types of places. May be wrong but i'm just not so sure that a reviewer will worry about the "risk of damage to the surroundings". The OP stated that the reviewer denied the cache because it violated the "a cache cannot be buried" guideline so i figure it'll get published if that gets sorted out. Quote
+WarNinjas Posted June 17, 2016 Posted June 17, 2016 One thing I learned early on as a hider is the reviewer is not trying to mess with your hide. They are just doing there job to the best of there ability with the info they have. I have had some caches denied and all I had to do was wright one sentence and then Bam! Published with no other questions. It can be a good idea to become friends with your reviewer. Always be open and honest with them. It doesn't mean they will just publish anything but might help with discussions about a hide and what can often easily be done to get it published. I would never argue with a reviewer but I do see some who do and I can't see that helping out at all. I think sometimes a reviewer respects that you are pointing out possible concerns and why you think it would also be OK in that situation. That you have thought about it and not just tried to hide something that might be a problem. Quote
+Mn-treker Posted June 17, 2016 Posted June 17, 2016 If that is classified as burried then so are fence pole hides. Must be a newbie reviewer. But still is a very bad spot. Hey cops somebody is messing with my neighbors power box on his house! Come quick and arrest him. Quote
Keystone Posted June 17, 2016 Posted June 17, 2016 If that is classified as burried then so are fence pole hides. Must be a newbie reviewer. But still is a very bad spot. Hey cops somebody is messing with my neighbors power box on his house! Come quick and arrest him. Not a newbie reviewer. I selected and personally trained that reviewer in 2007. Perhaps you missed OReviewer's post (Post #20), which laid out the actual facts here? The cache owner never stated to the reviewer that the pipe was a pre-existing pipe, or that the cache was hidden with the landowner's permission. To the contrary, the cache owner said to the reviewer that the pvc pipe was "placed next to a shed." To me, "placed" means that it's an object added to the environment by the cache hider. I encourage you to read OReviewer's post, as doing so might lead to more informed and respectful posts on your part. Quote
+Mn-treker Posted June 18, 2016 Posted June 18, 2016 I did read all posts. Yes he could have been more clear. But as posted the reviewer denied based on burried due to pipe in ground. Quote
+Manville Possum Posted June 18, 2016 Posted June 18, 2016 How to those little nanos under bottle caps ever get published? Are those not considered buried? Quote
+Touchstone Posted June 18, 2016 Posted June 18, 2016 I did read all posts. Yes he could have been more clear. But as posted the reviewer denied based on burried due to pipe in ground. True, and that would seem to be a consistent interpretation of the Guidelines. Quote
+niraD Posted June 18, 2016 Posted June 18, 2016 How to those little nanos under bottle caps ever get published? Are those not considered buried? It depends. The few I've seen have used an existing hole/crack/gap/whatever that the centrifuge tube could slip into, completely hidden by whatever camouflage was attached to the centrifuge tube. But I can imagine them being pushed into soft soil, which technically requires one to "dig or create a hole in the ground". Quote
+Manville Possum Posted June 18, 2016 Posted June 18, 2016 How to those little nanos under bottle caps ever get published? Are those not considered buried? It depends. The few I've seen have used an existing hole/crack/gap/whatever that the centrifuge tube could slip into, completely hidden by whatever camouflage was attached to the centrifuge tube. But I can imagine them being pushed into soft soil, which technically requires one to "dig or create a hole in the ground". The ones I have found are pushed into the soil under coins, bottle caps, or rocks. Quote
+cerberus1 Posted June 18, 2016 Posted June 18, 2016 How to those little nanos under bottle caps ever get published? Are those not considered buried? It depends. The few I've seen have used an existing hole/crack/gap/whatever that the centrifuge tube could slip into, completely hidden by whatever camouflage was attached to the centrifuge tube. But I can imagine them being pushed into soft soil, which technically requires one to "dig or create a hole in the ground". The ones I have found are pushed into the soil under coins, bottle caps, or rocks. We saw chewed gum containers at a locksmith's just last week. Who'd touch it? Always wondered if folks end up finding these things CITOing on the way out. A nano seems small enough (to me) to be a non-issue. - Compared to the little mushroom patch found once, where each was attached to a nail. Many probably make a similar impression to a nano with our footwear. Quote
+niraD Posted June 19, 2016 Posted June 19, 2016 We saw chewed gum containers at a locksmith's just last week. Who'd touch it? Always wondered if folks end up finding these things CITOing on the way out. I've wondered that a few times when I've seen "hidden as trash" cache containers for sale, or on display at events. It makes me wonder how many of these containers I've CITOed before logging a DNF. Quote
+Manville Possum Posted June 19, 2016 Posted June 19, 2016 We saw chewed gum containers at a locksmith's just last week. Who'd touch it? Same people that find those fake turd caches in dog parks? Quote
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