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Challenge Caches Returning?

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Dunno - but things seem to be trundling along very nicely without them B)

 

Translation: As long as I get my way, who cares about anybody else?

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I'm not quite sure what you're asking, but the moratorium was announced as one year, beginning April 21, 2015. So its status currently is that it's been about 11 of 12 months.

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Dunno - but things seem to be trundling along very nicely without them B)

 

Translation: As long as I get my way, who cares about anybody else?

 

Mamma always said that life isn't fair.

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Dunno - but things seem to be trundling along very nicely without them B)

 

Translation: As long as I get my way, who cares about anybody else?

 

Wow - good job putting words in my mouth Fizzy - that's a fertile imagination you have there :blink:

 

Translation - if one is needed - I wouldn't miss them if they didn't return - end of story.

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Dunno - but things seem to be trundling along very nicely without them B)

 

Translation: As long as I get my way, who cares about anybody else?

 

Mamma always said that life isn't fair.

 

I thought life was like a box of chocolates....

 

Anyway I don't get what Fizzy magic said. I, like Team Microdot, don't care either way. They don't come back? There's still 2 million other caches to find. They do come back? I might look for some, I might even hide one for an event. But I won't ask for them to come back.

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Dunno - but things seem to be trundling along very nicely without them B)

 

Translation: As long as I get my way, who cares about anybody else?

 

Mamma always said that life isn't fair.

 

I thought life was like a box of chocolates....

 

I'm not sure about that but say the wrong thing hereabouts and you're sure to get shot in the but-tocks :lol:

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Dunno - but things seem to be trundling along very nicely without them B)

 

Translation: As long as I get my way, who cares about anybody else?

 

Mamma always said that life isn't fair.

 

I thought life was like a box of chocolates....

 

I'm not sure about that but say the wrong thing hereabouts and you're sure to get shot in the but-tocks :lol:

 

Bubba's caching. Well there's mystery caches, and multi caches, and traditional caches, and nano caches, and micro caches, and ammo cans, and Webcam caches, and events.....

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It will be interesting to see what happens next month.

 

Personally, I'm a bit ambivalent about whether new ones are allowed or not. I'd like to see new ones allowed in some fashion, but I won't be devastated if they're not.

However, I would be annoyed if existing challenge caches are not grandfathered or if existing challenge caches are allowed to be logged as 'Found It' without their ALR's.

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I enjoy them and would like to see them return. Yes, some of them are absurd, but for the most part, I enjoy the challenge of "the hunt" that they present. It forces me to go to new places and experience new things that I haven't done before, which is what I've always liked about caching. I also find that the cachers that place and go after challenge caches are those cachers that I tend to hang out with anyways. A challenge cache beats a K-Mart LPC any day of the week... which I'll still eventually go after...but it won't be as much fun....

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I'd like to see new ones allowed in some fashion, but I won't be devastated if they're not.
+1

 

I've enjoyed a few of them, and I'm (slowly) working towards another one. But I've ignored more of them than I've ever completed or worked towards.

 

But more importantly, I don't recall seeing any consensus regarding changes that would resolve the issues that led to the hiatus in the first place. And I don't expect Groundspeak to resume listing new ones unless those issues are resolved.

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But more importantly, I don't recall seeing any consensus regarding changes that would resolve the issues that led to the hiatus in the first place. And I don't expect Groundspeak to resume listing new ones unless those issues are resolved.

There wasn't a consensus among those of us that post in the forums, but we didn't even know the exact issues or challenge caches that were causing the most issues anyway. We were all just speculating.

 

Those closest to the issue, Reviewers and HQ, probably had their own discussions that we weren't privy to. Hopefully, they came to a consensus, or at least a majority vote. I guess we'll see what next month brings.

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I've enjoyed some that were well conceived, but in my experience most are just random with meaningless requirements, like find 10 caches with word 1 in the title plus 20 with word 2 and 30 with word 3. What's the point of that? It requires way too much time, travel, and finding mostly uninspiring caches. It just fills up the map with ? symbols where real caches could go. I'm glad they were banned and I hope it stays that way. If they come back, I hope they at least put some kind of restrictions or guidelines for reviewers.

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It will be interesting to see what happens next month.

 

Personally, I'm a bit ambivalent about whether new ones are allowed or not. I'd like to see new ones allowed in some fashion, but I won't be devastated if they're not.

However, I would be annoyed if existing challenge caches are not grandfathered or if existing challenge caches are allowed to be logged as 'Found It' without their ALR's.

 

Well, I have worked hard to finish my D/T boxes, and am looking forward to finding some of those challenges.

I have done and enjoyed some of the standard Challenges: Counties, DeLorme, 366 Days Found/Caches Found On.

I'm working on Jasmer, but don't hold much hope for that one.

Then there are inane Challenges. I've done some local ones that I have qualified for. Twelve pairs of animals for Noah's Ark (pretty sure dolphins and mosquitoes didn't make it on Noah's Ark.) D/T points for one day to total 100 points. But I won't try for 200 points. Probably not going to try for 200 contiguous counties.

Hopefully GS will enact guidelines for 'normal' Challenges. Like with EarthCaches, I would hope that the ones that do not meet the new standards will be archived. I am very opposed to the concept of letting cachers log finds without meeting the requirements. The destroys the concept of Challenges.

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I've enjoyed some that were well conceived, but in my experience most are just random with meaningless requirements, like find 10 caches with word 1 in the title plus 20 with word 2 and 30 with word 3. What's the point of that? It requires way too much time, travel, and finding mostly uninspiring caches. It just fills up the map with ? symbols where real caches could go. I'm glad they were banned and I hope it stays that way. If they come back, I hope they at least put some kind of restrictions or guidelines for reviewers.

Tell us how you really feel...

 

How are puzzle caches or challenge caches not real?

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I've enjoyed some that were well conceived, but in my experience most are just random with meaningless requirements, like find 10 caches with word 1 in the title plus 20 with word 2 and 30 with word 3. What's the point of that? It requires way too much time, travel, and finding mostly uninspiring caches. It just fills up the map with ? symbols where real caches could go. I'm glad they were banned and I hope it stays that way. If they come back, I hope they at least put some kind of restrictions or guidelines for reviewers.

Tell us how you really feel...

 

How are puzzle caches or challenge caches not real?

 

Oh, they're real caches in the sense that they have containers and logbooks.

 

Now, perhaps it's a product of my location, but I can't recall the last time I saw an inspiring challenge cache published. The ones I've put in bookmark lists or am actively working towards qualifying for all pretty much were placed before 2012. I don't like challenge caches that are obtuse just for the sake of being obtuse but I do like challenges that take some work to accomplish (finding caches in other states/countries, terrain challenges, blackout challenges, etc). Challenge caches have quickly devolved into "Find 10 caches with the letter A in the title" and it is a magnetic hide a key on a guardrail...528 feet from another hide a key challenge cache that you needed to find 10 caches with the letter B in the title to qualify for.

 

It all became rather dull and unimaginative, with the idea of actually having to work towards qualifying for the challenge being replaced with using GSAK to comb through your finds so you can show you already qualify for the latest challenge cache power trail. It just became another string of community maintained caches for numbers cachers. If I had to guess, I'd say anyone who has over 10,000 finds will qualify for about 90% of challenge caches in Wisconsin. I hope it's not that bad elsewhere.

 

One good benefit is that many of these challenge caches are placed convenient to power cachers, so for the most part, they're not taking up real estate of any caching value.

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Dunno - but things seem to be trundling along very nicely without them B)

 

Translation: As long as I get my way, who cares about anybody else?

 

Wow - good job putting words in my mouth Fizzy - that's a fertile imagination you have there :blink:

 

Translation - if one is needed - I wouldn't miss them if they didn't return - end of story.

Just because things seem like they are trundling along for you doesn't mean everyone is happy, but maybe they are just tapping their foot waiting for the year to be over with so they can finish the ones they were trying to do.

I would like to see them back but better not stupid. I know many cachers who would like to see them back.

If you won't miss them,then don't worry there is an ignore button when they do come back

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Dunno - but things seem to be trundling along very nicely without them B)

 

Translation: As long as I get my way, who cares about anybody else?

 

Wow - good job putting words in my mouth Fizzy - that's a fertile imagination you have there :blink:

 

Translation - if one is needed - I wouldn't miss them if they didn't return - end of story.

Just because things seem like they are trundling along for you doesn't mean everyone is happy, but maybe they are just tapping their foot waiting for the year to be over with so they can finish the ones they were trying to do.

I would like to see them back but better not stupid. I know many cachers who would like to see them back.

If you won't miss them,then don't worry there is an ignore button when they do come back

 

And you're telling me this because?

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I've enjoyed some that were well conceived, but in my experience most are just random with meaningless requirements, like find 10 caches with word 1 in the title plus 20 with word 2 and 30 with word 3. What's the point of that? It requires way too much time, travel, and finding mostly uninspiring caches. It just fills up the map with ? symbols where real caches could go. I'm glad they were banned and I hope it stays that way. If they come back, I hope they at least put some kind of restrictions or guidelines for reviewers.
Tell us how you really feel...How are puzzle caches or challenge caches not real?

Crow-T Robot said it well. The lame challenge caches I mention aren't real in the sense that even if you find it you can't log it. That's not true for puzzle caches or regular caches. The challenges I refer to are the ones that require so many irrelevant criteria that the only ones who qualify to log it are those who do what Crow-T Robot said - culling through thousands of previous finds in GSAK to find out if they qualify. I can't imagine anyone actually setting out to find 30 caches with the word Creek in the title and 20 with Gulch in the title and 50 with Redwood in the title. Why? It's not really a challenge; it's just a chore. A good challenge cache, like the Fizzy, which I've done, sets a goal that is a true challenge and exposes the geocacher to something new and interesting - more difficult terrain, or different weather, or geography, or hide styles. I know of someone around here who holds a weekly morning coffee event, each with a different ridiculously long nonsense name just to provide "finds" for some of those stupid challenges. Is that really a challenge - to go have coffee in the morning?

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Is that really a challenge - to go have coffee in the morning?

 

Clearly you've never seen me before my morning coffee ...

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Dunno - but things seem to be trundling along very nicely without them B)

 

Translation: As long as I get my way, who cares about anybody else?

 

Wow - good job putting words in my mouth Fizzy - that's a fertile imagination you have there :blink:

 

Translation - if one is needed - I wouldn't miss them if they didn't return - end of story.

 

In other words, I was right on. It doesn't impact you personally, so that means it doesn't matter how it impacts anyone else.

 

If you really don't care, why are you posting so assiduously?

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Is that really a challenge - to go have coffee in the morning?

Maybe if cachers were meeting at a summit, then it would be a challenge. :ph34r:

 

This type of thing is likely why many Challenge Caches have restrictions on what types of caches can be included in the qualifying finds. Some CC's only allow finds on physical caches (trad, mystery, multi, Wherigo) to be counted when determining qualification. Some CC's say that all cache types are allowed.

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I've enjoyed some that were well conceived, but in my experience most are just random with meaningless requirements, like find 10 caches with word 1 in the title plus 20 with word 2 and 30 with word 3. What's the point of that? It requires way too much time, travel, and finding mostly uninspiring caches. It just fills up the map with ? symbols where real caches could go. I'm glad they were banned and I hope it stays that way. If they come back, I hope they at least put some kind of restrictions or guidelines for reviewers.
Tell us how you really feel...How are puzzle caches or challenge caches not real?

Crow-T Robot said it well. The lame challenge caches I mention aren't real in the sense that even if you find it you can't log it. That's not true for puzzle caches or regular caches. The challenges I refer to are the ones that require so many irrelevant criteria that the only ones who qualify to log it are those who do what Crow-T Robot said - culling through thousands of previous finds in GSAK to find out if they qualify. I can't imagine anyone actually setting out to find 30 caches with the word Creek in the title and 20 with Gulch in the title and 50 with Redwood in the title. Why? It's not really a challenge; it's just a chore. A good challenge cache, like the Fizzy, which I've done, sets a goal that is a true challenge and exposes the geocacher to something new and interesting - more difficult terrain, or different weather, or geography, or hide styles. I know of someone around here who holds a weekly morning coffee event, each with a different ridiculously long nonsense name just to provide "finds" for some of those stupid challenges. Is that really a challenge - to go have coffee in the morning?

You wouldn't know why I'm hosting these.

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There are many I ignore but they seem to be fun for others. And I have found several that I really enjoyed searching and qualifying for. I'd be fine with them returning, but I just think that CO's should be required to qualify for any challenge caches that they hide.

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I just think that CO's should be required to qualify for any challenge caches that they hide.
FWIW, I didn't get the impression that the problem with challenge caches was at all related to cache owners who didn't qualify for the challenge caches they were trying to list.

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I just think that CO's should be required to qualify for any challenge caches that they hide.
FWIW, I didn't get the impression that the problem with challenge caches was at all related to cache owners who didn't qualify for the challenge caches they were trying to list.

I generally enjoy challenge caches although I'm not afraid to admit I'm not a fan of ones based on the cache titles. I don't drive long distance just to sign them, but I do when I'm in the area anyway for other reasons, as I may change my mind later. I have 50+ challenge caches I signed but don't intend to work on at this moment. I have no problem with them. I don't attempt every single cache anyway, and they are the same thing.

 

My understanding is that the solution Groundspeak is seeking for is to have a clear-cut as to "allowed" challenge cache requirements. Again, I'm not a fan of what The Rat call "stupid" challenges either, but I'm totally fine even if they exist. If I don't want to accept the challenge, I can simply ignore it and that doesn't bother me. If everyone thinks like me, any challenge caches could probably be published as long as they conform to other (regular) guidelines, and the problem is solved. (I admit that I don't know what have been rejected and been generating a large amount of appeals, so I'm not strong about what I said above.)

 

If, if Groundspeak decides to accept all challenge cache types as long as the COs qualify themselves, there may be far less appeals from the COs for their rejected challenge caches, although I think mraudrey only expressed his general opinion about challenge caches without insisting that would solve the problem. The thing is that there are a fair number of people who can't accept what they don't like even exist, and Groundspeak seems to be seeking for something that works for everyone. I'm not against having some "quality check", but that is quite arbitrary and difficult.

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So, let me sum up ...

 

We don't know what's going on with the year-long moratorium. We don't have any more information about why the moratorium was put into place than when the moratorium was announced.

 

But we're quite happy to repeat every discussion we've had over the past eleven months about what is (or isn't) wrong with challenge caches and how we should fix the problem that we don't understand.

 

:)

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So, let me sum up ...

 

We don't know what's going on with the year-long moratorium. We don't have any more information about why the moratorium was put into place than when the moratorium was announced.

 

But we're quite happy to repeat every discussion we've had over the past eleven months about what is (or isn't) wrong with challenge caches and how we should fix the problem that we don't understand.

 

:)

 

And if I may add...even if GS decides not to bring back Challenge caches, assuming that the let all the existing challenge caches exist (I just don't see archiving all the existing ones as an option), I suspect that there are more challenge caches out there that can be done then all the virtual caches and web cam caches in the world.

 

If no new challenge caches are published it's not like people won't be able to do challenge caches.

 

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So, let me sum up ...

 

We don't know what's going on with the year-long moratorium. We don't have any more information about why the moratorium was put into place than when the moratorium was announced.

 

But we're quite happy to repeat every discussion we've had over the past eleven months about what is (or isn't) wrong with challenge caches and how we should fix the problem that we don't understand.

 

:)

Yep, that about sums it up. In fact, I think I can shrink it down even more:

On April 21, 2015, a one-year moratorium was enacted on the publication of new challenge caches. Today being March 29, 2016, we haven't reached the one-year point and nothing has yet changed.

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...
You wouldn't know why I'm hosting these.

True enough. I may have unfairly characterized those coffees. That doesn't change my opinion about those lame challenges, however. Lame is lame. Many of them are poorly disguised attempts to get people to find and log other caches by the same CO. Such a requirement for challenges was always forbidden, since you couldn't require to have found any particular cache(s), but people were getting around the technical rule by saying (hypothetical example): you had to find twenty caches with "Xerxes" in the title and that CO just happened to own 20 caches with Xerxes in the title, but he said you didn't have to find his caches. Of course there were no others within hundreds or maybe thousands of miles.

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Many of them are poorly disguised attempts to get people to find and log other caches by the same CO. Such a requirement for challenges was always forbidden, since you couldn't require to have found any particular cache(s), but people were getting around the technical rule by saying (hypothetical example): you had to find twenty caches with "Xerxes" in the title and that CO just happened to own 20 caches with Xerxes in the title, but he said you didn't have to find his caches. Of course there were no others within hundreds or maybe thousands of miles.

You are entitled to have opinions, and I'm totally fine with that. In my defense, though, I don't really understand which challenge cache of mine you are talking about. I actually have only one challenge cache, and attending my events wouldn't really help much for someone to qualify my challenge. Yes, I 100% agree with you that many of what you call "Stupid" challenges are poorly disguised attempts to get people to find and log other caches by the same CO, and yes, I don't personally like that either, and, that's exactly why I decided to host these events for obsessed cachers to finish such challenges without finding the same CO's (lame) hides, and hopefully the COs of such challenge caches may try to find other ways to attract more visitors to their hides.

Edited by kanchan

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Many of them are poorly disguised attempts to get people to find and log other caches by the same CO. Such a requirement for challenges was always forbidden, since you couldn't require to have found any particular cache(s), but people were getting around the technical rule by saying (hypothetical example): you had to find twenty caches with "Xerxes" in the title and that CO just happened to own 20 caches with Xerxes in the title, but he said you didn't have to find his caches. Of course there were no others within hundreds or maybe thousands of miles.

I don't really understand which challenge cache of mine you are talking about. I actually have only one challenge cache, and attending my events wouldn't really help much someone to qualify that challenge.

Kanchan, you misunderstand me. The "them" I am referring to above are lame challenge caches. I am aware of several challenge caches by others that have requirements like I stated that are just disguised attempts to get people to find their own caches. You don't have any so far as I know. Your coffee events are a separate thing. I assumed the long crazy names were for the purpose of allowing attendees to qualify for challenges, but if that's not the reason then I apologize. I have not complained about your events, although now I am curious as to why they are every week and why always in that same out-of-the-way location and why the long crazy names? Care to share?

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Many of them are poorly disguised attempts to get people to find and log other caches by the same CO. Such a requirement for challenges was always forbidden, since you couldn't require to have found any particular cache(s), but people were getting around the technical rule by saying (hypothetical example): you had to find twenty caches with "Xerxes" in the title and that CO just happened to own 20 caches with Xerxes in the title, but he said you didn't have to find his caches. Of course there were no others within hundreds or maybe thousands of miles.

I don't really understand which challenge cache of mine you are talking about. I actually have only one challenge cache, and attending my events wouldn't really help much someone to qualify that challenge.

Kanchan, you misunderstand me. The "them" I am referring to above are lame challenge caches. I am aware of several challenge caches by others that have requirements like I stated that are just disguised attempts to get people to find their own caches. You don't have any so far as I know. Your coffee events are a separate thing. I assumed the long crazy names were for the purpose of allowing attendees to qualify for challenges, but if that's not the reason then I apologize. I have not complained about your events, although now I am curious as to why they are every week and why always in that same out-of-the-way location and why the long crazy names? Care to share?

I was updating my post above to share my intent while you were responding to it. The requested information is there now.

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Very good. It seems we actually have similar views on the matter. Sorry to have caused a momentary upset. Mata tomodachi?

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Earth caches are my favorite because they take me to locations I've never seen before.

 

To combat a lot of the blue question marks, I just turn my settings down to difficulty: 1.5 and terrain up to 5 and get all the easy ones. For those that don't like Challenge Caches, try that and it'll help you ease into them and understand some of them. Then you can move onto the harder ones. They're actually quite fun.

 

The map is saturated with them, though. So maybe there should be a limit on how many can be placed by one person? Like many have said before. We are all very unclear of why the ban was placed to begin with. So on April 21st, we shall see!

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Very good. It seems we actually have similar views on the matter. Sorry to have caused a momentary upset. Mata tomodachi?

Yes. Similar. I can still live with these challenge caches without frustration, though. They don't bother me. I hope challenge caches are back. With or without restrictions.

 

Edit to add: BTW, they are not morning coffee events in a same out-of-the-way location. They are picnic lunch events in a park.

Edited by kanchan

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Wow - good job putting words in my mouth Fizzy - that's a fertile imagination you have there :blink:

 

Translation - if one is needed - I wouldn't miss them if they didn't return - end of story.

That's exactly what I thought fizzymagic was saying you were saying, so while he did put words in your mouth, you've now confirmed they were the right words.

 

But more importantly, I don't recall seeing any consensus regarding changes that would resolve the issues that led to the hiatus in the first place. And I don't expect Groundspeak to resume listing new ones unless those issues are resolved.

I don't recall any statement of what the issues were to begin with other than that GS couldn't figure out how to avoid fighting with COs over the rejected ones. And, as I said from the beginning, it strikes me that, although not a perfect solution, simply not allowing COs to argue about rejected ones is a far better solution that simply rejecting all of them even when they're obviously within reason.

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I just finished an epic challenge that was really fun, really challenging, required planning and lots of driving over the course of the month. But the cache is quite far from me and I have no idea if I'll be able to sign in any time soon or before it potentially gets archived.

Does that matter to me? Not really. The challenge taunted me and I set a goal for myself to complete it. And I was rewarded by success. What did I practically get out of it? A bunch of geocache finds ranging from run-of-the-mill to extreme, and the ability to log this one found if I ever get to it. That's all, apart from loads of personal enjoyment.

 

There are dumb challenges, and there are excellent challenges. But that's entirely subjective.

There are easy challenges, and there are complex challenges. In a way that's also entirely subjective.

To criticize challenge caches on the whole is fallacious, just as is praising them universally.

They are what they are.

 

If they come back (and I hope they do), I certainly wouldn't mind them being a little tighter and stringent (as objectively as possible to avoid the 'wow-factor' problem) so as to reduce the noise ratio.

 

I personally have a bookmarklist of all challenge caches in Ontario, and I'm regularly checking up on them to find out which I qualify for, other than any I'm actively working to complete (usually 1 or 2 at a time at most). With the proliferation of caches everywhere, challenge caches have brought back some of the value added to going out to find them, in the form of accomplishing goals. I have no problem with that. There are days I like to just go out caching randomly with friends, and there are days (or periods) where I want to set my mind on a task and be challenged.

 

I'd prefer continuing to have both options for enjoying the outdoors moving forward in the future :)

 

So, let me sum up ...

 

We don't know what's going on with the year-long moratorium. We don't have any more information about why the moratorium was put into place than when the moratorium was announced.

 

But we're quite happy to repeat every discussion we've had over the past eleven months about what is (or isn't) wrong with challenge caches and how we should fix the problem that we don't understand.

 

:)

This. :laughing:

Edited by thebruce0

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Wow - good job putting words in my mouth Fizzy - that's a fertile imagination you have there :blink:

 

Translation - if one is needed - I wouldn't miss them if they didn't return - end of story.

That's exactly what I thought fizzymagic was saying you were saying, so while he did put words in your mouth, you've now confirmed they were the right words.

 

You're both right of course - thanks for pointing out what I'm doing wrong.

 

Instead of focusing on all the good things that are trundling along nicely in the world of geocaching, I should invest my time imagining what unhappiness persons unkown might be suffering and then feeling bad about it.

 

I'll get started on that right now...

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I can't imagine anyone actually setting out to find 30 caches with the word Creek in the title and 20 with Gulch in the title and 50 with Redwood in the title. Why? It's not really a challenge; it's just a chore. A good challenge cache, like the Fizzy, which I've done, sets a goal that is a true challenge and exposes the geocacher to something new and interesting - more difficult terrain, or different weather, or geography, or hide styles.

Or different places further from home where I can find caches with "Gulch" in the title? Honestly, I have no idea what you're thinking that makes an objective difference between a challenge and a chore. The only difference between a challenge and a chore is whether you're enjoying yourself, and that depends on you, not the task.

 

One of my favorite challenge was to find 75 caches with the word "eye" in the title. The point of the challenge wasn't for individual seekers to track down such caches: the challenge was for the community to put out enough "eye" caches so people could satisfy that challenge from local caches. By what right do you say there's something wrong with that?

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Instead of focusing on all the good things that are trundling along nicely in the world of geocaching, I should invest my time imagining what unhappiness persons unkown might be suffering and then feeling bad about it.

That's all we're asking.

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One of my favorite challenge was to find 75 caches with the word "eye" in the title. The point of the challenge wasn't for individual seekers to track down such caches: the challenge was for the community to put out enough "eye" caches so people could satisfy that challenge from local caches. By what right do you say there's something wrong with that?
Meh... To me, that kind of "challenge to the community to hide caches" sounds pretty much the same as breeder caches or "curse of the FTF" caches or challenge caches that require owning caches or the like.

 

One of the things I respect about Groundspeak is that they resist incentives for people to hide caches for arbitrary reasons like this, for any reasons other than the desire to own and maintain a cache for the long term.

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One of my favorite challenge was to find 75 caches with the word "eye" in the title. The point of the challenge wasn't for individual seekers to track down such caches: the challenge was for the community to put out enough "eye" caches so people could satisfy that challenge from local caches. By what right do you say there's something wrong with that?
Meh... To me, that kind of "challenge to the community to hide caches" sounds pretty much the same as breeder caches or "curse of the FTF" caches or challenge caches that require owning caches or the like.

 

One of the things I respect about Groundspeak is that they resist incentives for people to hide caches for arbitrary reasons like this, for any reasons other than the desire to own and maintain a cache for the long term.

 

+1 to the above from niraD.

 

One of the main arguments I've seen FOR challenge caches goes along the lines of they get me to do things I wouldn't normally do / find caches I wouldn't normally find

 

Now I can add to the list they get people to place caches to make the challenge easier to complete - although in truth I've seen this happen numerous times anyway.

 

The 'prize' for completing a challenge cache is..... to find another cache!

 

Are challenge caches fundamentally required for any of the above?

 

Not at all.

 

Here's a challenge - assume / pretend that challenge caches aren't coming back. Need a challenge? Set yourself the CHALLENGE to enjoy geocaching without challenge caches, to be able to do things you wouldn't normally do / find caches you wouldn't normally find / place caches / find other caches - all in the absence of another arbitrary set of rules :)

 

Sounds simple enough to me.

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One of the main arguments I've seen FOR challenge caches goes along the lines of they get me to do things I wouldn't normally do / find caches I wouldn't normally find

And you have a problem with that? Like you have with

 

Now I can add to the list they get people to place caches to make the challenge easier to complete - although in truth I've seen this happen numerous times anyway.

?

I agree with you on the latter, not the former. (if in the former you're associating it similarly as a reason you don't like)

 

The 'prize' for completing a challenge cache is..... to find another cache!

And if someone finds value in that, it does no one any harm. The prize for solving a puzzle is...to find another cache! The prize for researching geology is...to get another smiley! You can find people who complain about each of those because they don't prefer them. That's no reason to criticize the concept. If you don't like'em, that's fine. Other people do.

 

Are challenge caches fundamentally required for any of the above?

 

Not at all.

Thankfully, the only reward for completing the challenge is...to find another cache. The only goal for looking up and setting out for any cache is to find it. Above and beyond that, you infuse the task (anywhere from walking down the road to qualifying over a year of daily caching, eg) reward with your own value.

 

Here's a challenge - assume / pretend that challenge caches aren't coming back. Need a challenge? Set yourself the CHALLENGE to enjoy geocaching without challenge caches, to be able to do things you wouldn't normally do / find caches you wouldn't normally find / place caches / find other caches - all in the absence of another arbitrary set of rules :)

 

Sounds simple enough to me.

As I put in my comment above - I did exactly that, except that the challenge idea did come from a challenge cache. I have no plans to go and find that physical container any time soon. But I'm really greatful that the owner put it out, that I saw it, and decided to try that challenge. Why suggest that other people can't put out challenge cache for the ideas, then force people to make their own goals? Sure, that can be done, but it can be done with or without challenge caches. I could make my own goals, or I could be inspired by a challenge around the world, and I can choose that my reward is mere completion, not that cache.

 

The concept of challenge caches is not fallacious. Don't wipe them all out because you don't happen to like the concept. But the implementation can certainly be improved. And that's what we're waiting on GS to deliver :P

Edited by thebruce0

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The concept of challenge caches is not fallacious. Don't wipe them all out because you don't happen to like the concept. But the implementation can certainly be improved. And that's what we're waiting on GS to deliver :P

 

Not fallacious how?

 

I'm not trying to wipe them out - I just don't see any instrinsic value in them whatsoever and wouldn't miss them if they never came back :P

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Great, we know your opinion.

You continue to express your reasons for not liking them which extends beyond preference into the realm of universality, which is why you get pushback about why such reasons don't always apply. Your reasons for not liking them are being presented as reasons why they should not come back. If you won't miss them if they never come back, and you're not advocating for their demise, then you shouldn't mind if they come back either. Unless you have reasons why they shouldn't, in which case you're no longer just sharing that you 'don't see any intrinsic value in them', you are defending their permanent removal.

 

So are you advocating their removal?

Or are you just neutral about their existence, and thus would not be upset if they never returned?

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Great, we know your opinion.

You continue to express your reasons for not liking them which extends beyond preference into the realm of universality, which is why you get pushback about why such reasons don't always apply. Your reasons for not liking them are being presented as reasons why they should not come back. If you won't miss them if they never come back, and you're not advocating for their demise, then you shouldn't mind if they come back either. Unless you have reasons why they shouldn't, in which case you're no longer just sharing that you 'don't see any intrinsic value in them', you are defending their permanent removal.

 

So are you advocating their removal?

Or are you just neutral about their existence, and thus would not be upset if they never returned?

 

I would say that I'm neutral - there are some challenges that I think are good and have enjoyed and there are others which I think are pointless and just ignore.

 

And I would not be upset if they never returned.

 

And (at the risk of repeating myself but then realising that I need to because various people keep trying to put a different spin on what I say) the game seems to trundle along nicely without them - just as it did in the years before their existence.

 

I'm still curious as to what you meant with regard to the concept of challenge caches not being fallacious - I didn't understand your meaning.

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One of my favorite challenge was to find 75 caches with the word "eye" in the title. The point of the challenge wasn't for individual seekers to track down such caches: the challenge was for the community to put out enough "eye" caches so people could satisfy that challenge from local caches. By what right do you say there's something wrong with that?

Meh... To me, that kind of "challenge to the community to hide caches" sounds pretty much the same as breeder caches or "curse of the FTF" caches or challenge caches that require owning caches or the like.

I suppose it depends on the community. What actually happened was that people put out caches as good as any other, but just added the eye theme to the description and container. As far as I could tell, no one put out a cache they wouldn't have put out anyway.

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Fallacious being the points you raised about why you don't like them that are more than mere preference. Things like:

 

"they get people to place caches to make the challenge easier to complete" how is that a problem? The problem arises only when people place caches that are problems themselves. So to use that as a reason to dislike the challenge concept goes beyond just "I don't like the ones that do this" (which is fine, we all have challenge styles we don't like, so more productive would be to discuss how improvements could be made to dissuade such styles).

You associate with that, "they get me to do things I wouldn't normally do / find caches I wouldn't normally find", which I don't see at all how that could be a reason not to like challenge caches.

 

Other complaints you (and others in various threads) have expressed often reach beyond "I don't like x-style-challenge cache" which is perfectly fine, into "I don't like challenge caches because...and am hoping they don't return".

Personally, I'm fine with people hoping they don't return, I'm just not fine when the reasoning isn't actually a universal problem. For me, those are the points I like to discuss.

 

If people can agree that there are aspects to challenge caches that are love-it/hate-it, personal preference depending on who you talk to, and that it's therefore not a reason to keep nor remove the concept from geocaching, then I think we'd all get along better in these threads :P

 

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