Attended = Didn't Attend

[+Team Microdot]

I saw an event recently at which, with the full permission of the Event Organiser, the majority of those logging Attended were never actually present at the given coordinates.

 

Some of the attendees 'Skyped' in, some (as far as I could tell) managed to post a 'hello' type message on a social media website that could be seen at the venue and others, for whom technology utterly failed, logged on an 'Honour System'.

 

I thought a condition of Attended required as a bare minimum that one was present at the given coordinates within the agreed (minimum 30 minutes) time window?

[+palmetto]

5.1. Logging an Event Cache

[+JL_HSTRE]

This sort of thing has been going on for at least a couple years now.

[+wandillup wanderer]

5.1. Logging an Event Cache

It seems to be an increasing trend for people to log caches/ events that they haven't attended or found.

I really don't understand the satisfaction in that,to me it is just a hollow online entry.

It would appear that the integrity of the sport is being eroded by these actions and maybe cache owners and event organizers need to scrutinize logs more closely

I thought that one of the fundamental principles of geocaching was that it took you to places you wouldn't normally go and gave you new experiences sadly for some these beliefs are not upheld

[+ArtieD]

There was a cacher up in Michigan who was whining on FB about the fact that a reviewer archived his event because he pretty much went behind his back and told people that virtual logging was okay. Seems it's happening everywhere.

[+L0ne.R]

5.1. Logging an Event Cache

It seems to be an increasing trend for people to log caches/ events that they haven't attended or found.

I really don't understand the satisfaction in that,to me it is just a hollow online entry.

It would appear that the integrity of the sport is being eroded by these actions and maybe cache owners and event organizers need to scrutinize logs more closely

I thought that one of the fundamental principles of geocaching was that it took you to places you wouldn't normally go and gave you new experiences sadly for some these beliefs are not upheld

 

I blame the emphasis on statistics/grid-filling/power-caching/souvenirs/challenge caches, especially challenge caches.

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

5.1. Logging an Event Cache

It seems to be an increasing trend for people to log caches/ events that they haven't attended or found.

I really don't understand the satisfaction in that,to me it is just a hollow online entry.

It would appear that the integrity of the sport is being eroded by these actions and maybe cache owners and event organizers need to scrutinize logs more closely

I thought that one of the fundamental principles of geocaching was that it took you to places you wouldn't normally go and gave you new experiences sadly for some these beliefs are not upheld

 

I blame the emphasis on statistics/grid-filling/power-caching/souvenirs/challenge caches, especially challenge caches.

 

Ding Ding Ding - We have a winner.

[+on4bam]

5.1. Logging an Event Cache

It seems to be an increasing trend for people to log caches/ events that they haven't attended or found.

I really don't understand the satisfaction in that,to me it is just a hollow online entry.

It would appear that the integrity of the sport is being eroded by these actions and maybe cache owners and event organizers need to scrutinize logs more closely

I thought that one of the fundamental principles of geocaching was that it took you to places you wouldn't normally go and gave you new experiences sadly for some these beliefs are not upheld

 

I blame the emphasis on statistics/grid-filling/power-caching/souvenirs/challenge caches, especially challenge caches.

 

Ding Ding Ding - We have a winner.

 

No we don't. Blame it on lack of ethics.

Edited September 22, 2015 by on4bam

[+rosebud55112]

5.1. Logging an Event Cache

It seems to be an increasing trend for people to log caches/ events that they haven't attended or found.

I really don't understand the satisfaction in that,to me it is just a hollow online entry.

It would appear that the integrity of the sport is being eroded by these actions and maybe cache owners and event organizers need to scrutinize logs more closely

I thought that one of the fundamental principles of geocaching was that it took you to places you wouldn't normally go and gave you new experiences sadly for some these beliefs are not upheld

 

I blame the emphasis on statistics/grid-filling/power-caching/souvenirs/challenge caches, especially challenge caches.

 

Why would it be due to Challenge Caches? Are you saying that people are claiming finds/attends when they didn't find/attend just so they can claim a challenge cache? If they are willing to cheat, why would you expect them to try to qualify for the challenge? It seems like it would be simpler just to cheat by claiming the challenge cache.

 

As on4bam said, it's an ethics thing. It's not a challenge cache thing.

[+L0ne.R]

.... It seems like it would be simpler just to cheat by claiming the challenge cache.

 

 

Challenge cache owners can delete a find on their challenge if they don't see evidence (a recorded find).

 

Also, wasn't their a recent souvenir that required event attendance? You can't get the souvenir without recording a find on events.

[+K13]

5.1. Logging an Event Cache

It seems to be an increasing trend for people to log caches/ events that they haven't attended or found.

I really don't understand the satisfaction in that,to me it is just a hollow online entry.

It would appear that the integrity of the sport is being eroded by these actions and maybe cache owners and event organizers need to scrutinize logs more closely

I thought that one of the fundamental principles of geocaching was that it took you to places you wouldn't normally go and gave you new experiences sadly for some these beliefs are not upheld

 

I blame the emphasis on statistics/grid-filling/power-caching/souvenirs/challenge caches, especially challenge caches.

 

Why would it be due to Challenge Caches? Are you saying that people are claiming finds/attends when they didn't find/attend just so they can claim a challenge cache? If they are willing to cheat, why would you expect them to try to qualify for the challenge? It seems like it would be simpler just to cheat by claiming the challenge cache.

 

As on4bam said, it's an ethics thing. It's not a challenge cache thing.

Correct on lack of ethics being at the root of the issue.

 

They can't cheat the Challenge cache because they have to show their list of certain finds or Attendeds or Trackables discovered, etc. They wouldn't claim the bogus activities if not for the Challenge requiring their list.

[+Team Microdot]

.... It seems like it would be simpler just to cheat by claiming the challenge cache.

 

 

Challenge cache owners can delete a find on their challenge if they don't see evidence (a recorded find).

 

Also, wasn't their a recent souvenir that required event attendance? You can't get the souvenir without recording a find on events.

 

As far as I can see it logically follows that a cacher who is prepared to log a find on a cache that isn't there, or even log a find on a cache they've never been near, is the same sort of cacher who isn't going to worry about the validity of their log on a challenge cache - or that the evidence to support their log is based on fact. Rather all that matters is the smiley.

 

As far as souvenirs go, thanks to the in-built loophole ANYONE can obtain a souvenir given for event attendance by logging an Attended on ANY event - and they can even delete that log themselves as the souvenir sticks. I saw this first-hand during the Geocaching Road Trip souvenirs - several individuals who never turned up logged Attended but wrote how they had got lost on the way to the event and never made it.

 

That said, I'm not suggesting that people attend events virtually for any particular reason as I suspect there's a variety of reasons for doing so.

[+on4bam]

They wouldn't claim the bogus activities if not for the Challenge requiring their list.

 

I doubt it. Why log other cachetypes without really finding them? Why log virtuals without visiting the site? Why log TB codes from lists circulating the internet?

Some people just chose to cheat. It's everywhere, sports, politics, financial world.. and in geocaching. They cheat because they can.

[+L0ne.R]

I doubt we can do anything about ethics. It's probably at the same level it ever was. But the incentives to "cheat" are greater then they ever were. To me the answer is give up the incentives. However, there are a lot of people who want the emphasis on souvenirs, stats, challenges, and power caching. Perhaps as a business opportunity for GS, the incentives far outweigh the bogus finds issues. I don't think we can have our cake and eat it too.

[+J Grouchy]

I doubt we can do anything about ethics. It's probably at the same level it ever was. But the incentives to "cheat" are greater then they ever were. To me the answer is give up the incentives. However, there are a lot of people who want the emphasis on souvenirs, stats, challenges, and power caching. Perhaps as a business opportunity for GS, the incentives far outweigh the bogus finds issues. I don't think we can have our cake and eat it too.

 

You'll never get rid of it.

They would have to completely do away with challenges.

They would have to eliminate the statistics page from your profile.

They would have to eliminate any third party site from accessing statistical information.

 

Even then, people would be tracking that data.

 

So then they would have to eliminate dates, D/T ratings, favorite points, sizing data and a bunch of other quantitative data from the cache pages.

[+JL_HSTRE]

I blame the emphasis on statistics/grid-filling/power-caching/souvenirs/challenge caches, especially challenge caches.

 

I blame a lack of integrity.

 

I like statistics, I have made grid-filling a goal, I like challenge caches, and I like Souvenirs. I don't feel the need to do power trails or make bogus Found logs or pass around puzzle solutions or any of the other nonsense that goes on these days.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Joshism

[+AustinMN]

They wouldn't claim the bogus activities if not for the Challenge requiring their list.

 

I doubt it. Why log other cachetypes without really finding them? Why log virtuals without visiting the site? Why log TB codes from lists circulating the internet?

Some people just chose to cheat. It's everywhere, sports, politics, financial world.. and in geocaching. They cheat because they can.

 

Indeed, they cheat because they can. And cheating a Challenge cache requires...cheating at other caches.

[+L0ne.R]

The game has become about points, rather than the experience of geocaching. A few of us are still playing for the experience of the geocache - a find being a way to record that we found the cache or attended the event. But when geocaching turned the find count into a commodity, it changed things, turned a recreational activity into a competition. The results are self-evident.

 

Standing up for integrity and ethics seems to be railing at the wind. Unless Groundspeak changes the emphasis on numbers, but as J Grouchy points out perhaps that gate can't be closed, now that the horses have bolted.

 

Then again, let's rail, because maybe, just maybe some people will re-think the emphasis on numbers.

[+Team Microdot]

Then again, let's rail, because maybe, just maybe some people will re-think the emphasis on numbers.

 

I don't think anyone is likely to re-think the emphasis on numbers and, on balance, I'm OK with that.

 

The numbers are just another part of the structured activity called geocaching, another way to measure and record one's experience and to compare those experiences with those of others - and there's nothing inherently wrong with any of that.

 

Structured activities draw our attention - we seek them out and value them as ways to spend our spare time. The real mystery therefore is why, having sought out one such structured activity, so many seem happy to undermine, bypass, nay sacrifice that structure and the experiences arising from it in favour of what they themselves have rendered a meaningless number - or even an entire collection of meaningless numbers in some cases

 

Returning to the OP, I do actually have a degree of acceptance of the idea of an event where attendance and more importanty interaction with other cachers can be achieved without all those individuals necessarily being in the same room - but the idea that the organiser actually invites attended logs from people with zero interaction or involvment of any kind is what, for me, renders this sort of event a complete joke.

 

Taking the concept one step further - achieving Mega Event status or even Giga Event status would be more easily achieved by allowing virtual attendance

[+dprovan]

The game has become about points, rather than the experience of geocaching. A few of us are still playing for the experience of the geocache - a find being a way to record that we found the cache or attended the event. But when geocaching turned the find count into a commodity, it changed things, turned a recreational activity into a competition. The results are self-evident.

I'm not seeing this at all. None of the cachers I know are in it for the points. Sure, a few like to rack up numbers, but even they're still in it for the experience of geocaching. I see very little competition, and any I see is good natured. So the negative results you're suggesting are not in any way self-evident to me.

 

What I see -- mainly from reports in the forums -- are a few people that are misguided. I can't explain why. Generally, they can be ignored, although once in a while they do annoying things that I wish they wouldn't.

 

Standing up for integrity and ethics seems to be railing at the wind. Unless Groundspeak changes the emphasis on numbers, but as J Grouchy points out perhaps that gate can't be closed, now that the horses have bolted.

 

Then again, let's rail, because maybe, just maybe some people will re-think the emphasis on numbers.

Yes, I agree. Those people cheating on their finds don't make much difference to me, but that doesn't mean I'm against trying to convince people that they're being stupid.

[+Mudfrog]

They wouldn't claim the bogus activities if not for the Challenge requiring their list.

 

I doubt it. Why log other cachetypes without really finding them? Why log virtuals without visiting the site? Why log TB codes from lists circulating the internet?

Some people just chose to cheat. It's everywhere, sports, politics, financial world.. and in geocaching. They cheat because they can.

 

Lack of ethics is a growing problem in this world. People choose to cheat, lie, and steal because there is a potential of gain without having to put forth much effort. Getting caught is not an issue because they have no pride and know that even if they do get caught, punishment will be light or non existent.

[+Sagefox]

I'm not seeing this at all. None of the cachers I know are in it for the points. Sure, a few like to rack up numbers, but even they're still in it for the experience of geocaching. I see very little competition, and any I see is good natured. So the negative results you're suggesting are not in any way self-evident to me.

I agree totally.

 

What I see -- mainly from reports in the forums -- are a few people that are misguided. I can't explain why. Generally, they can be ignored, although once in a while they do annoying things that I wish they wouldn't.

I always suspect this is the case. That there is a low percentage of people that go over to the dark side but it always seems like an epidemic when cases are constantly presented here.

 

I often get sucked into this perception but then I keep stepping back to ask myself how widespread is it, really? I don't think we can ever know fully because the number of cachers is staggering and the good practices don't get press.

[+Team Microdot]

I suppose if you're going to Skype into an event - you may as well virtually dip your trackables too...

[+J Grouchy]

I suppose if you're going to Skype into an event - you may as well virtually dip your trackables too...

 

Love this part of the cache page:

 

If asked by security you will need to tell them you are there to meet 'Mr. Wilson'

 

and reception should have taken care of it by then.

 

That doesn't sound sketchy at all. Should we *winkwinknudgenudge* the security guy when we say it? Hand him a few bills with a handshake?

[+DanOCan]

I blame the emphasis on statistics/grid-filling/power-caching/souvenirs/challenge caches, especially challenge caches.

Me too. It's funny, when Souveniers were released there seemed to be a whole "Meh" reaction associated with them but now we see people engaging in all sorts of odd behavior to try and earn them. Intentionally logging on incorrect dates, rating Events with a Difficulty of 5, etc. I wonder if it is tied to the increased appeal of the hobby to the smartphone/app sect which seems to be more motivated by badges and achievements.

 

While I have certainly attended a number of business meetings remotely, I can't fathom taking credit for attending a Geocaching event in the same manner, given that Groundspeak is supposed to be the "language of location". I wouldn't want my maps to reflect that I cached in a state I have never set foot in just because I joined in on a Skype call.

[+K13]

I suppose if you're going to Skype into an event - you may as well virtually dip your trackables too...

 

I'm curious how to Skype in to the event held in the lawn area in front of the hotel? Technology must be awesome in Sao Paulo.

[+Team Microdot]

I suppose if you're going to Skype into an event - you may as well virtually dip your trackables too...

 

I'm curious how to Skype in to the event held in the lawn area in front of the hotel? Technology must be awesome in Sao Paulo.

 

WIFI in the hotel lobby + skype on a tablet or even a cellphone?

 

It's hardly Star Trek

[+K13]

A way to get a new country souvenir, if you don't mind the Smells of Limburger, and the sniggering of others.

[+Team Microdot]

A way to get a new country souvenir, if you don't mind the Smells of Limburger, and the sniggering of others.

 

Indeed - for many, I expect

[+niraD]

Love this part of the cache page:

 

If asked by security you will need to tell them you are there to meet 'Mr. Wilson'

 

and reception should have taken care of it by then.

 

That doesn't sound sketchy at all. Should we *winkwinknudgenudge* the security guy when we say it? Hand him a few bills with a handshake?

I would assume that "Mr. Wilson" is the real name of one of the organizers. I've attended events where I needed to tell the person at the gate the real name of the organizer(s), or my real name, or both.

[+Manville Possum]

I suppose if you're going to Skype into an event - you may as well virtually dip your trackables too...

 

I'm curious how to Skype in to the event held in the lawn area in front of the hotel? Technology must be awesome in Sao Paulo.

 

WIFI in the hotel lobby + skype on a tablet or even a cellphone?

 

It's hardly Star Trek

 

Yeah, really. One of the alternative sites has already hosted a virtual geocaching event. I know that GS will never play catch-up, but as a geocacher I see the game constantly changing. So as technology advances, are we just to keep using outdated government satellites to hide pill fobs under lampskirts and question the etiquette of those interested in virtual geocaching events?

[+AustinMN]

Yeah, really. One of the alternative sites has already hosted a virtual geocaching event. I know that GS will never play catch-up, but as a geocacher I see the game constantly changing. So as technology advances, are we just to keep using outdated government satellites to hide pill fobs under lampskirts and question the etiquette of those interested in virtual geocaching events?

 

Except when recording coordinates for a new hide, GS does not require the use of any specific technology. I have found caches using sat maps from Google Earth. I was able to zero in on the actual location, found the cache, and signed the log. Nobody cares that I didn't use GPS sats to find GZ. In that circumstance (surrounded by skyscrapers), a GPSr would have been useless. If you wanted to use 19th century survey tools, you could find caches that way. In fact, some might give you a medal for doing so. The satellites are a method, not a requirement.

 

However, not being at the cache container is a non-find. In the same way, not being at the location of the event is a non-attend. Using virtual event attendance as "attended" is as hollow as claiming a find because I looked at photos of the container and photos of the location on a sat map.

 

It's not that GS who will never catch up, it's that those who don't understand that location really is location who will never get it.

 

BTW, if you want to go to an alternate site, be my guest. I hear they even have a cache on every continent.

[+Team Microdot]

So as technology advances, are we just to keep using outdated government satellites to hide pill fobs under lampskirts and question the etiquette of those interested in virtual geocaching events?

 

I'm not sure etiquette is under scrutiny here as much as people's apparent inability to stick to the basic facts of what happened or didn't happen.

[+Manville Possum]

It's not that GS who will never catch up, it's that those who don't understand that location really is location who will never get it.

 

BTW, if you want to go to an alternate site, be my guest. I hear they even have a cache on every continent.

 

The virtual event I was referring to was called a Locationless event. I'm sure you are aware GS also once hosted locationless caches and virtuals, before they created the Waymarking site for them.

 

Virtual events have been discussed in the Waymarking forums, but recently there was a Locationless event hosted on the OpenCaching North America site. There, like Waymarking the members are few and far between. A Locationless event is just for fun.

 

As far as a cache on every continent, maybe TerraCaching has them, but I'm not very active there.

[+lamoracke]

 

I blame the emphasis on statistics/grid-filling/power-caching/souvenirs/challenge caches, especially challenge caches.

 

Ding Ding Ding - We have a winner.

 

As a challenge cache enthusiast, I cant imagine that many challenge caches that would be helped by this. If folks are going to pretend to log a cache, they would do it without challenge caches just as easy.

Edited September 24, 2015 by lamoracke

[+L0ne.R]

I blame the emphasis on statistics/grid-filling/power-caching/souvenirs/challenge caches, especially challenge caches.

 

Ding Ding Ding - We have a winner.

 

As a challenge cache enthusiast, I cant imagine that many challenge caches that would be helped by this. If folks are going to pretend to log a cache, they would do it without challenge caches just as easy.

 

As the owner of a few challenge caches, I can see how you might not want to think that your caches may encourage bogus logging.

 

When the list of finds becomes a sanctioned scoreboard, then the find becomes less meaningful as a way to keep track of finds, but more meaningful as a gaming tool.

[+Team Microdot]

If folks are going to pretend to log a cache, they would do it without challenge caches just as easy.

 

The question is then, do people pretend to log caches in order to qualify for challenge caches who wouldn't normally do so if those challenges did not exist.

 

In my experience the answer is yes, absolutely.

[+Gill & Tony]

If folks are going to pretend to log a cache, they would do it without challenge caches just as easy.

 

The question is then, do people pretend to log caches in order to qualify for challenge caches who wouldn't normally do so if those challenges did not exist.

 

In my experience the answer is yes, absolutely.

I would suspect that the number of people who cheat only when trying to qualify for challenge caches is relatively small. My experience in other areas is that someone who cheats in one circumstance will usually cheat in others.

 

Even if some people cheat to qualify for a challenge cache, I don't see that as a reason for removing challenge caches. Some people cheat to fill D/T grids and that's no reason to remove D and T ratings. Some people cheat to fill date grids. Some people cheat simply because they can.

 

Police cheating as much as possible and don't worry about the rest.

[+The A-Team]

Some people cheat to fill D/T grids and that's no reason to remove D and T ratings. Some people cheat to fill date grids. Some people cheat simply because they can.

Challenge caches provide an incentive that otherwise isn't there for things like filling grids. I've personally seen cachers "cheating" by throwing down or "saving" a Virtual for another day to extend a streak, and I know them well enough that I'm confident they likely wouldn't employ those tactics if they weren't trying to qualify for a challenge.

 

While not all "cheaters" are doing so to complete challenges, challenges do contribute to people "cheating". It'll be interesting to see what happens with challenge caches going forward.

[+Michaelcycle]

Lurching back on topic: we heard promptly from one reviewer who simply quoted the relevant guideline but made no other comment. The question remains, how did this event get published? Was the wording changed after submission? Was a "special dispensation" (the Pope is visiting our area this weekend) granted? Is this now accepted practice?

[Keystone]

Lurching back on topic: we heard promptly from one reviewer who simply quoted the relevant guideline but made no other comment. The question remains, how did this event get published? Was the wording changed after submission? Was a "special dispensation" (the Pope is visiting our area this weekend) granted? Is this now accepted practice?

What event is "this event?"

 

If there's wording in the cache description about non-legitimate virtual attendance, the reviewer can certainly correct that during the review process.

[+jellis]

I knew of a group that said they wouldn't delete anyone who logged virtually on an event that posted a streaming live video of the event on their event page.

[+ArtieD]

I knew of a group that said they wouldn't delete anyone who logged virtually on an event that posted a streaming live video of the event on their event page.

 

I remember this group. They really love to skirt and outright violate guidelines.

[+beccalyria]

I suppose I am guilty of this.

 

There was a geocoin event nearby, and I missed the meet and greet by a couple of days but went and did the challenge to earn my geocoin. I logged the event as attended, thinking it was a valid log since I participated in the challenge, but subsequently had my log deleted (two months later, with no explanation from the CO - I can only assume the reason).