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CO enjoys making "unsolvable" puzzles?


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So there is a local cacher who has 5 puzzle caches that have never been solved/logged as finds. I happen to live in an area where there are a good deal of excellent puzzle solvers (I am NOT one of them!) yet no one has cracked any of these in 4-5 years. The CO basically taunts would-be solvers by saying things like "Hmmmm Seems we dont have any real puzzle solvers here."

 

I don't really care about the little taunts or even a puzzle that is very difficult to solve, but what's the idea of having 5 caches that can't be found by a reasonable (or any) number of people? I know when had a particular challenge cache submitted, the reviewer rightfully wanted me to prove that a decent number of people in the area qualified before he would publish it. Seems hypocritical.

 

Also, can someone verify that puzzles have to have a solution submitted at the time of review. Keystone, you would know the answers without a doubt ;)

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From the Guidelines:

 

Before you submit the cache listing, post a Note to Reviewer with an explanation of how the puzzle is solved. This log will auto-delete on publication.

 

Edit to add:

 

Also, can someone verify that puzzles have to have a solution submitted at the time of review. Keystone, you would know the answers without a doubt ;)

 

Seeing that Keystone was the Reviewer on at least two of the Listings I found, I can see this is a bit of a loaded question. I've never been asked for solutions to Puzzles I've submitted, but I suspect that portion of the Guidelines was added (maybe in the last 5 years or so?), so that the option was available to Reviewers in order to confirm adherence to other sections of the Guidelines (e.g. commercial, agenda, downloads, proprietory software etc.)

Edited by Touchstone
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Seems to me that this guy thinks that making an unsolvable puzzle makes him smarter than everyone else.

 

Sadly, nothing could be further from the truth. Making unsolvable puzzles is actually very easy, and a series of unsolved puzzles is evidence that the creator is, in fact, not very good at making puzzles.

 

If I were in your area I would probably post a snarky note to the cache page, so it's a good thing I am not.

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Well, the requirements for challenge caches are different than puzzle caches. For challenge caches you have to demonstrate that a number of cachers can meet the requirements. For puzzle caches, it is a recent requirement that a CO has to explain to the reviewer how to solve the puzzle. I first ran across that two years ago. It was probably not require 4-5 years ago. (Yes. One reviewer asked how I expected cachers to read my mind. That cache has had a fair number of finds...)

I have one that has had five finds in almost five years. It's tough and evil. Got a problem with that? But, it is solvable.

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I agree with those about this guy being kind of ridiculous. Other than the silly idea that he/she is somehow smarter than everyone else, I don't see the point of having caches that will likely never be found. And narcissa, rest assured that I am focused on those other 2.7 million caches. This was more about my curiosity of such things getting published and wondering why they are allowed to go on when other caches receive more scrutiny about being published or, in some cases, have been archived due to inactivity (which I am not a fan of).

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Seems to me that this guy thinks that making an unsolvable puzzle makes him smarter than everyone else.

 

Sadly, nothing could be further from the truth. Making unsolvable puzzles is actually very easy, and a series of unsolved puzzles is evidence that the creator is, in fact, not very good at making puzzles.

 

If I were in your area I would probably post a snarky note to the cache page, so it's a good thing I am not.

 

Perhaps he's just trying to find somebody smarter than him. Maybe he needs a smart friend.

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Seems to me that this guy thinks that making an unsolvable puzzle makes him smarter than everyone else.

 

Sadly, nothing could be further from the truth. Making unsolvable puzzles is actually very easy, and a series of unsolved puzzles is evidence that the creator is, in fact, not very good at making puzzles.

 

If I were in your area I would probably post a snarky note to the cache page, so it's a good thing I am not.

 

Exactly. Anyone can encrypt something with AES and a decent password, even the NSA would struggle (we assume!)......

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I agree with those about this guy being kind of ridiculous. Other than the silly idea that he/she is somehow smarter than everyone else, I don't see the point of having caches that will likely never be found. And narcissa, rest assured that I am focused on those other 2.7 million caches. This was more about my curiosity of such things getting published and wondering why they are allowed to go on when other caches receive more scrutiny about being published or, in some cases, have been archived due to inactivity (which I am not a fan of).

 

Some geocachers really enjoy chipping away at puzzles that are extremely challenging. Not all caches are for all people.

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From the Guidelines:

 

Before you submit the cache listing, post a Note to Reviewer with an explanation of how the puzzle is solved. This log will auto-delete on publication.

 

Edit to add:

 

Also, can someone verify that puzzles have to have a solution submitted at the time of review. Keystone, you would know the answers without a doubt ;)

 

Seeing that Keystone was the Reviewer on at least two of the Listings I found, I can see this is a bit of a loaded question. I've never been asked for solutions to Puzzles I've submitted, but I suspect that portion of the Guidelines was added (maybe in the last 5 years or so?), so that the option was available to Reviewers in order to confirm adherence to other sections of the Guidelines (e.g. commercial, agenda, downloads, proprietory software etc.)

 

The Guidelines don't have dates of when items have been revised, but the Help Center article about Puzzle caches says "updated 5 March 2015". That article does not include the bit about providing the method of solution to the Reviewer, though.

 

http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=277

 

B.

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Seems to me that this guy thinks that making an unsolvable puzzle makes him smarter than everyone else.

 

Sadly, nothing could be further from the truth. Making unsolvable puzzles is actually very easy, and a series of unsolved puzzles is evidence that the creator is, in fact, not very good at making puzzles.

 

If I were in your area I would probably post a snarky note to the cache page, so it's a good thing I am not.

 

He may think that he is smarter but i have to ask, why do we care? I sure can't understand why anyone would want to add drama by posting a snarky remark.

 

I don't usually say things like "just ignore things like this" but this is actually a time when i believe this is good advice. It should be pretty easy to just ignore his caches and any of his taunting that might come your way. There really isn't anything here to get upset over.

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Edit: One could say that if a solution is submitted to the reviewer the puzzle is solvable.

 

I don't think submitting the solution is required. You have to submit how to solve the puzzle, but you don't have to give the answer to the reviewer. I would assume in most cases, though, that giving the method of solution is basically the same as giving the solution. Once you know how to solve a particular puzzle, solving it become much easier.

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So there is a local cacher who has 5 puzzle caches that have never been solved/logged as finds. I happen to live in an area where there are a good deal of excellent puzzle solvers (I am NOT one of them!) yet no one has cracked any of these in 4-5 years. The CO basically taunts would-be solvers by saying things like "Hmmmm Seems we dont have any real puzzle solvers here."

 

I don't really care about the little taunts or even a puzzle that is very difficult to solve, but what's the idea of having 5 caches that can't be found by a reasonable (or any) number of people? I know when had a particular challenge cache submitted, the reviewer rightfully wanted me to prove that a decent number of people in the area qualified before he would publish it. Seems hypocritical.

 

Also, can someone verify that puzzles have to have a solution submitted at the time of review. Keystone, you would know the answers without a doubt ;)

So why don't you give us the GC codes for these puzzles. Maybe it is solvable.

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There are a few cachers around here who post snarky comments when a puzzle is too hard, when a multi is too complicated, when someone else gets FTF, when an event isn't at a convenient time, etc.

 

When I look at the cache map, it is littered with those silly straight lines of traditionals where you are supposed to roll by and throw caches out the window or whatever. I will never find those. They are not for me.

 

I would much rather look at a cache that I can't find because it's hard than a cache that I won't find because it's stupid.

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I have to admit, when someone acts like that, I don't waste time worrying about them, neither why they're doing it nor how to make them stop. I just ignore it.

 

It could be worse. This summer I was caching in an area that had many, many puzzles that I couldn't solve, all by the same CO. When I read the logs, it became pretty clear that almost all the solvers succeeded by going to the CO with hat in hand for help.

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Seems to me that this guy thinks that making an unsolvable puzzle makes him smarter than everyone else.

 

Sadly, nothing could be further from the truth. Making unsolvable puzzles is actually very easy, and a series of unsolved puzzles is evidence that the creator is, in fact, not very good at making puzzles.

 

If I were in your area I would probably post a snarky note to the cache page, so it's a good thing I am not.

 

Perhaps he's just trying to find somebody smarter than him. Maybe he needs a smart friend.

Moriarty. The Joker.

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As everywhere, we also have a few D5 puzzle CO's. Most of the time I look at the listing, see if I can figure out how to to start solving and (most of the time) just put them aside again. I treat them like T5 caches. With 23000+ unfound caches in Belgium alone I think I don't need to worry about these D5's. It's a lot more difficult to ignore run of the mill uninspiring micro's behind an utility pole.

 

And yet, we can still go out every week and find caches we do like (we just have to go caching further and further away from home)

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We used to hide puzzles a bit like that, making the hardest puzzle we could think of to beat our local cachers. But the appeal of that approach soon wears off, as no-one goes to find them, they get ignored. Ultimately, we place caches for people to find.

 

Nowadays, although we will throw in difficult puzzles, we aim for a variety of difficulty levels to suit the varied range of local finders. It's satisfying to hear about the light bulb moment when they cracked it. In fact we've even seen that happen face to face.

 

I guess you could say nowadays we don't set puzzles to show how clever we are, but rather to show how clever everyone else is. :D

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Well, I like puzzles. I'd go so far as to say there are some puzzles that I've managed to solve which I loved - but at first glance these look incredibly tedious and don't even look like they'd provide much of a Eureka moment even if one could managed to solve them.

 

Plus there seems to be a lot of emphasis on googling... I wonder if the CO realises that Google search results are individually personalised these days...

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Edit: One could say that if a solution is submitted to the reviewer the puzzle is solvable.

 

I don't think submitting the solution is required. You have to submit how to solve the puzzle, but you don't have to give the answer to the reviewer. I would assume in most cases, though, that giving the method of solution is basically the same as giving the solution. Once you know how to solve a particular puzzle, solving it become much easier.

 

Well...more often than not, the solution is the coordinates for the final cache location...so you basically ARE submitting the answer to the puzzle.

But yes, when I submit a puzzle cache, I basically have to tell the reviewer at least a rough explanation of how to solve the puzzle. I generally state it briefly and without getting into the in-depth solution, though. I actually sort of believe he doesn't really work through it to verify.

 

I'm one of those folks who creates (or tries to, at least) unique puzzles that can't simply be solved by cutting/pasting into some cipher decryption tool. I enjoy finding new ways to "hide" coordinates that require looking at something in a new way. Some of the ones I feel are relatively straightforward, though, have given folks the hardest time. For me it's not about trying to prove I'm smarter or more clever than anyone else. It's more about providing a greater variety and challenge to people who like to cache. Just like every traditional should not be an ammo can in the woods or a nano on a street sign, not every puzzle should be simple or easily recognizable. Honestly, I like my puzzles to be solved and my caches to be found...but I've also learned that the people who DO solve those puzzles and find those caches end up writing logs that are worth reading. I'll take one well-written log over 100 "TFTC" logs any day.

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The trouble is, if you can't solve the puzzle, you can't tell if it is a "unsolvable" "guess what I'm thinking" puzzle, or an excellent but difficult puzzle. And whether it is a good or bad puzzle is subjective anyway.

 

But I feel for the OP; if an owner has lots of puzzle caches in a populated area, and none of them have been solved in 4-5 years since they were published. In that situation, most COs will add hints or change their approach. I can't see getting joy as a CO if nobody is solving my puzzles for years.

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I'm always mystified at the anger that difficult puzzles seem to generate among certain cachers. A cache that you can't find isn't a personal insult. How insecure do you need to be to make these awful comments about someone because they enjoy creating tricky puzzles?

 

I'm guessing that it stems from either, insecurity or the misguided belief that they are entitled to find every cache with ease.

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I'm always mystified at the anger that difficult puzzles seem to generate among certain cachers. A cache that you can't find isn't a personal insult. How insecure do you need to be to make these awful comments about someone because they enjoy creating tricky puzzles?

 

I'm guessing that it stems from either, insecurity or the misguided belief that they are entitled to find every cache with ease.

I suspect we wouldn't be having this conversation if there was at least one Find on a couple of those Listings.

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I'm always mystified at the anger that difficult puzzles seem to generate among certain cachers. A cache that you can't find isn't a personal insult. How insecure do you need to be to make these awful comments about someone because they enjoy creating tricky puzzles?

 

I'm guessing that it stems from either, insecurity or the misguided belief that they are entitled to find every cache with ease.

 

I think that's part of it.

 

But part of it just seems like they're basically yelling WHAT, YOU THINK YOU'RE BETTER THAN ME? when they encounter a cache that is a little difficult. My husband has letterbox caches that are tricky, but not impossible. You should see the insane hate mail he gets from people (including people with experience and responsibilities in this game who should know better than to freak out because they don't want to read a cache page).

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I'm always mystified at the anger that difficult puzzles seem to generate among certain cachers. A cache that you can't find isn't a personal insult. How insecure do you need to be to make these awful comments about someone because they enjoy creating tricky puzzles?

 

I'm guessing that it stems from either, insecurity or the misguided belief that they are entitled to find every cache with ease.

I suspect we wouldn't be having this conversation if there was at least one Find on a couple of those Listings.

 

You may suspect that, but I can assure you it isn't the case.

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I'm always mystified at the anger that difficult puzzles seem to generate among certain cachers. A cache that you can't find isn't a personal insult. How insecure do you need to be to make these awful comments about someone because they enjoy creating tricky puzzles?

 

I'm guessing that it stems from either, insecurity or the misguided belief that they are entitled to find every cache with ease.

I suspect we wouldn't be having this conversation if there was at least one Find on a couple of those Listings.

 

You may suspect that, but I can assure you it isn't the case.

 

So you can read the OP's mind?

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I'm always mystified at the anger that difficult puzzles seem to generate among certain cachers. A cache that you can't find isn't a personal insult. How insecure do you need to be to make these awful comments about someone because they enjoy creating tricky puzzles?

 

I'm guessing that it stems from either, insecurity or the misguided belief that they are entitled to find every cache with ease.

I suspect we wouldn't be having this conversation if there was at least one Find on a couple of those Listings.

 

You may suspect that, but I can assure you it isn't the case.

 

So you can read the OP's mind?

 

The topic comes up with some regularity.

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I'm always mystified at the anger that difficult puzzles seem to generate among certain cachers. A cache that you can't find isn't a personal insult. How insecure do you need to be to make these awful comments about someone because they enjoy creating tricky puzzles?

 

I'm guessing that it stems from either, insecurity or the misguided belief that they are entitled to find every cache with ease.

I suspect we wouldn't be having this conversation if there was at least one Find on a couple of those Listings.

 

You may suspect that, but I can assure you it isn't the case.

 

So you can read the OP's mind?

 

The topic comes up with some regularity.

 

Thanks to all who have actually responded to my questions rather than making thinly-veiled jabs. I am glad at least one of you figured out how to solve one of these puzzles. Congratulations! I hate puzzles in general since I spend all day working with similar things with my patients. But I digress...

 

Maybe the puzzles are solvable. But I think it was a legitimate question considering 5 of them have no finds in several years. So when I noticed this I was simply being curious about the process of review. I was also curious about what others thought about Silver Bells' motive...tricky puzzle or unsolvable joke. Since someone here has solved one of them, I am leaning toward the former. Now I can sleep at night tongue.gif

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I suspect we wouldn't be having this conversation if there was at least one Find on a couple of those Listings.

You may suspect that, but I can assure you it isn't the case.

 

And you know that how, exactly?

 

Early on, probably in 2003 or so, there was a puzzle cache hider nearby with exactly the attitude of this CO. He hid puzzle caches that required what we in our area call "moon logic" to solve and he constantly bragged about how smart he was. He finally hid one puzzle cache that was supposed to be the "hardest ever." The local community worked on brute-forcing it, and a group of us set to solving it. We got past the first stage, and the CO then insisted on sending each of us an "individualized" puzzle required for the final coords.

 

Well, it eventually turned out that the so-called "individual puzzles" had no coords to get; there was no puzzle in them! And the CO had never even hidden the cache in the first place! He quit caching shortly after this all came to light.

 

My comment about "snarky comments" seems to have been misinterpreted as anger on my part. Oh, no, far from it. The comments would be intended to tweak the hider's ego, not to vent some kind of anger.

 

My concern here is more about the lack of quality puzzles available to geocachers than about any bad feelings toward the CO. Caching already has enough sucky puzzles; this CO appears (note that I haven't even tried to solve any of his) to be contributing to that problem.

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I suspect we wouldn't be having this conversation if there was at least one Find on a couple of those Listings.

You may suspect that, but I can assure you it isn't the case.

 

And you know that how, exactly?

 

Early on, probably in 2003 or so, there was a puzzle cache hider nearby with exactly the attitude of this CO. He hid puzzle caches that required what we in our area call "moon logic" to solve and he constantly bragged about how smart he was. He finally hid one puzzle cache that was supposed to be the "hardest ever." The local community worked on brute-forcing it, and a group of us set to solving it. We got past the first stage, and the CO then insisted on sending each of us an "individualized" puzzle required for the final coords.

 

Well, it eventually turned out that the so-called "individual puzzles" had no coords to get; there was no puzzle in them! And the CO had never even hidden the cache in the first place! He quit caching shortly after this all came to light.

 

My comment about "snarky comments" seems to have been misinterpreted as anger on my part. Oh, no, far from it. The comments would be intended to tweak the hider's ego, not to vent some kind of anger.

 

My concern here is more about the lack of quality puzzles available to geocachers than about any bad feelings toward the CO. Caching already has enough sucky puzzles; this CO appears (note that I haven't even tried to solve any of his) to be contributing to that problem.

 

I see snarky cache notes about difficult caches pretty frequently. The people who leave such notes just end up looking ridiculous.

 

I rarely see people intentionally troll other cachers with fraudulent cache listings. Now that reviewers ask to see the solution, I think that issue is virtually non-existant.

 

Not all caches are for all people. If a puzzle is too hard or not interesting for me, it isn't because the owner has an ego problem, it's because the cache just isn't for me.

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I suspect we wouldn't be having this conversation if there was at least one Find on a couple of those Listings.

You may suspect that, but I can assure you it isn't the case.

 

And you know that how, exactly?

 

Early on, probably in 2003 or so, there was a puzzle cache hider nearby with exactly the attitude of this CO. He hid puzzle caches that required what we in our area call "moon logic" to solve and he constantly bragged about how smart he was. He finally hid one puzzle cache that was supposed to be the "hardest ever." The local community worked on brute-forcing it, and a group of us set to solving it. We got past the first stage, and the CO then insisted on sending each of us an "individualized" puzzle required for the final coords.

 

Well, it eventually turned out that the so-called "individual puzzles" had no coords to get; there was no puzzle in them! And the CO had never even hidden the cache in the first place! He quit caching shortly after this all came to light.

 

My comment about "snarky comments" seems to have been misinterpreted as anger on my part. Oh, no, far from it. The comments would be intended to tweak the hider's ego, not to vent some kind of anger.

 

My concern here is more about the lack of quality puzzles available to geocachers than about any bad feelings toward the CO. Caching already has enough sucky puzzles; this CO appears (note that I haven't even tried to solve any of his) to be contributing to that problem.

 

I see snarky cache notes about difficult caches pretty frequently. The people who leave such notes just end up looking ridiculous.

 

I rarely see people intentionally troll other cachers with fraudulent cache listings. Now that reviewers ask to see the solution, I think that issue is virtually non-existant.

 

Not all caches are for all people. If a puzzle is too hard or not interesting for me, it isn't because the owner has an ego problem, it's because the cache just isn't for me.

 

I agree that most of us dislike being around braggarts and ego maniacs. The smugness that comes with these people is not something we enjoy. Unfortunately, because ours is a social hobby, we're going to encounter this from time to time. There's not much we can do to change the situation so it's best to just try and tune it out. After all, it really isn't affecting us anyway. Yes, it can hit a nerve but you'll be happier if you can manage to just let it go.

 

This goes for caches we see as being too tough for us. Whether it's a cache up in a tree, on top of a mountain, under the ocean, on the space station, or one that has a difficult puzzle to solve,,, we shouldn't have the attitude that we're entitled to get every cache out there. Just let em go! :)

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Surprised that due to heated discussion this thread hasn't been closed down! Impossible caches are ridiculous, next to ridiculous caches that two or three visits are good, as long as DNF are included. Get with the nature of the game, it should not be the like a Casino where the House is always stacked against you. It should an odds on even chance for the player. Other wise, it is all a waste of time.

 

My next cache found is going to be the best Cache I have ever found!

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