Puzzled by puzzles

[+jellis]

I don't really care about how many but how hard they are. I have been on a solving spree and there are still too many I can't solve because those are way over my head. These are mostly created by those I call the Livermore Labrats. FizzyMagic knows who I am talking about. But hey I can't find all the caches in the world, so there are going to be puzzles I can't solve. What I thought was funny was there were some of mine they couldn't solve.

[cezanne]

Around here most puzzles are micros in trees in a park but we have a lot of really awesome traditionals.

 

Good for you but do not project your local experiences to other areas.

 

For example, I'm quite sure that you have not yet experienced a cache which comes close to some of the ones

that AnnaMoritz listed as her favourite ones in the class of puzzle caches that challenge both mind and body and provide several hours of outdoor adventure. Such caches are clearly not for everyone but for the target audience these caches have something to offer which cannot be provided by traditionals. The suspense of a treasure hunt and whether one will succeed at all gets killed by telling the people "Go there and you will find the treasure at the large tree." Some multi stage puzzle caches that are very popular are built in a similar way than treasure hunting adventures told in novels where it can take quite long and many detours until the team is finally successful.

Personally, I prefer if the focus is on hiking, but I can very well understand why some people are attracted by such caches and would trade a single of them in for 1000 traditionals.

[cezanne]

I don't really care about how many but how hard they are. I have been on a solving spree and there are still too many I can't solve because those are way over my head. These are mostly created by those I call the Livermore Labrats. FizzyMagic knows who I am talking about. But hey I can't find all the caches in the world, so there are going to be puzzles I can't solve. What I thought was funny was there were some of mine they couldn't solve.

 

I'm not astonished at all. The difficulty of a puzzle is something very subjective. I often can solve puzzles which are rated with 4-5* in less than a minute and fail to solve 2*-2.5* rated ones in a reasonable time and give up.

It depends a lot on how someone thinks and which background someone has. Typically, puzzles created by someone who is not thinking scientifically at all are harder to solve for me. For example, there is a puzzle about jewels in my area which is easy for most cachers, but at which I failed. I was quite disappointed when I realized that the background has nothing to do with knowledge about minerals (axes, classifications etc) at all.

 

While I often read statements like that cachers complain about puzzle caches which require (rather are easier) for someone with a background in programming, computer science, mathematics, etc one needs to take into account that there are cachers who have this background. Climbing caches are not reachable to everyone and the same is true for some puzzle caches. The thing that surprises me is however that I read much more often statements that complain that certain caches require a degree in a certain subject (not true in most cases anyway) than statements that certain caches require the ability to climb, dive etc

The first geocache neither included a puzzle nor a climb, dive etc. So the difference in perception cannot be explained by tradition.

 

 

Cezanne

[+niraD]

The advent of puzzle caches adulterated what had previously had been an outdoor activity.

Perhaps, but that adulteration occurred pretty early in the history of geocaching. IIRC, there were puzzle caches among the caches hidden during the first year of geocaching, although it's been a while since I've reviewed a list of "historic" caches. It was definitely within the first 2 years though.

 

Too many of the kind I don't like; not enough of the kind I do.

Ain't that the truth!

 

I'd be really interested in seeing puzzles and their related caches have owners who welcome the opportunity to teach people how to solve their puzzle if need be.

I've especially enjoyed puzzle caches that taught me something, including those that explain how a particular cipher or encryption method works (or that link to a resource that explains how it works) and then let me work out the puzzle solution on my own.

 

And for me, one of the highlights of geocaching in the SF Bay area is Venona's (roughly) annual ACTIVITIES. The puzzles for this event are very challenging, but are solved by people working together online. Everything is discussed, explained, and summarized in the GBA forums so anyone interested can follow along and participate as their abilities (and interest) allow. (You'll need to register on the GBA site to view forum threads, for example: 2013, 2012, 2011.)

 

I like hiking and biking as well as other outdoor activities such as paragliding but given a choice of 2 equal long hikes, one has a long multi and the other a dozen trads, I'll take the latter every time.

On multiple occasions, I've spent hours hiking while solving and finding a single multi-stage puzzle cache. And on multiple occasions, I've spent hours hiking while finding numerous traditional caches and/or simple offset caches. Given a choice, I'll take the former every time.

[+niraD]

For example, there is a puzzle about jewels in my area which is easy for most cachers, but at which I failed. I was quite disappointed when I realized that the background has nothing to do with knowledge about minerals (axes, classifications etc) at all.

Yeah, I've found a few puzzles like that, where the obvious theme was really a red herring. The more attention you paid to the obvious theme, the longer it took you to solve the puzzle because the puzzle (with its solution) was actually elsewhere.

[+dprovan]

First of all hiking takes as much, if not more planning than geocaching.

Now you're arguing that hiking is more of an indoor activity than geocaching?

 

I just find it funny that geocaching, which I'm sure we can all agree on, is meant to be an outdoor activity while puzzles are the complete opposite and are primarily an indoor activity.

I find it clever how they get me to use two disparate activities to achieve a unified goal.

[+dprovan]

What I mean is that I remember when I joined this site and started working on puzzles around my area. Some were "easy" enough, and others were real brain busters. I'd email owners for a nudge, and they more often-than-not obliged happily. As time went on, I would ask some other cachers for nudges, and be greeted with a brick wall reply. Even when I could provide details of where I was at I wouldn't even be able to get a "yup, you're on the right track" response.

That's so sad. No wonder you hate puzzle caches. In my area, there are COs that contact me in order to see if I need any help on puzzles of theirs they've noticed I haven't solved yet.

 

The only time I can't get help from the CO of a puzzle cache is when they've dropped out of the game, and in that case I ask someone that's found it for help, and I always get it.

[cezanne]

The only time I can't get help from the CO of a puzzle cache is when they've dropped out of the game, and in that case I ask someone that's found it for help, and I always get it.

 

There are puzzles however where providing help might mean giving away the solution which does not make sense.

I do own a cache where I would not ask someone whether help is needed (when contacted with an idea the only thing I will do is just reply with "you are on the wrong/correct track") and where none of the finders will give away the solution either.

[+MKFmly]

Since we are not discussing my feelings on puzzles I'll reply.

 

Drive ups get you out of the house at the very least.

 

Biking a paved trail is an outdoor activity no matter how far you go.

 

Event caches are generally outside and those that aren't still get you out of your house and away from the computer.

 

I assume you have no clue how much energy it takes to do a power trail, if all you did was PTs on a daily basis you'd be one fit and healthy person.

 

No matter how close to a road an urban cache is, you're still getting off your but and outdoors.

Again this perspective is still based on the invalid argument that time spent solving puzzles are directly taken away from time searching for caches outdoors. It is not a one to one relationship or a zero sum system. Cachers may spend time indoors solving puzzles but they have the same opportunity for outside benefits (some pretty dubious) as you have outlined above. Perhaps, it’s even more as they have more caches to search for...

 

I'm quite confident most of Roman's self-described non-traditional puzzle solving techniques take place indoors...and likely take more brain effort than solving the puzzle as designed, in the first place.

[+redsox_mark]

I get it that some cachers don't like puzzles at all and would be happy if they just went away.

While other cachers like them.

 

They have been a part of the game for at least 12 years and I doubt they will be stopped (or like virtuals no new ones allowed). Personally I think they provide variety and I would be sad if they were stopped.

 

Of course the "?" icon covers a range of caches. In this specific thread, it is the "solve at home first to get coordinates" type which is being targeted. Other threads have wanted to ban the challenge cache, another type of "?".

 

I've not seen anyone object to the "bonus" type of "?" cache.

 

I guess the way to implement a ban of the "puzzle" types is to change the guidelines to say that the cache must start at the posted coordinates. Of course if field puzzles are still allowed, owners could still hide a puzzle which many people can't solve easily in the field; just put a difficult cipher (for example) in a physical container at the posted coordinates. I can't find any guidelines about field puzzles needing to be easy for most people. Unless field puzzles are banned too.

 

I'm interested to know what the anti-puzzle folks would like to see happen (what they want removed from the game).

[+narcissa]

So not only does the final of a puzzle cache (and a multi) take up a lot of real estate, but I'm sure many time the posted coordinates deter people from placing caches anywhere near so in effect a puzzle (and multi) can take up the real estate of two caches and up here where we don't have much flat room that is a lot.

 

Boo hoo. Should have gotten there first.

[+Ambrosia]

"...One of the puzzles is mine, and I'm about to archive it and replace it with a traditional. A lot of the more difficult puzzles in the area have been archived..."

 

Guess I better find it quickly then!

[+Ambrosia]

So, this thread made me curious. I looked at my stats, and out of about one hundred mystery/puzzle finds, I've only favorited four (I've assigned favorites to about two hundred caches).

 

Out of those four, two of the caches were fun field puzzles, and two were regular puzzles that had really nice cache locations - I favorited the cache locations, not the puzzles.

[+NeverSummer]

What I mean is that I remember when I joined this site and started working on puzzles around my area. Some were "easy" enough, and others were real brain busters. I'd email owners for a nudge, and they more often-than-not obliged happily. As time went on, I would ask some other cachers for nudges, and be greeted with a brick wall reply. Even when I could provide details of where I was at I wouldn't even be able to get a "yup, you're on the right track" response.

That's so sad. No wonder you hate puzzle caches. In my area, there are COs that contact me in order to see if I need any help on puzzles of theirs they've noticed I haven't solved yet.

 

The only time I can't get help from the CO of a puzzle cache is when they've dropped out of the game, and in that case I ask someone that's found it for help, and I always get it.

Hate puzzle caches? No, no. I enjoy them. They frustrate me, yes, but only when owners decide to keep cards closer to the vest than need be.

 

The big issue for me, which I stated above somewhere on pg 2, is that caches are made to be found. And, with most puzzles where I've been living since leaving Oregon in 2007, they are largely unfound for a goodly amount of time. When I start working on them, I thought that an owner would welcome someone working on their lonely cache ("Shall we play a game?"). The contrary is often true. They'd for some reason rather see someone languish in the unsolvable than offer a nudge or confirmation that I'm on the right path. (This is a generalization, there is a "local" cacher here near Homer, AK that would readily help if asked.)\

 

I like the "cat and mouse" aspect that can unfold when working with someone on my puzzles. I don't put out many anymore because I like my caches to be found, and here in Homer most folks are tourists (we have 3 active cachers in town, not including me). Tourists generally don't work out puzzles before visiting a place, and for some reason also avoid multis and Mystery/Puzzle caches that might be field solvable puzzles or are not a puzzle at all.

 

I miss the fun that was had when there were some good-natured and fun-loving puzzle makers in my community. We enjoyed batting ideas back and forth, and really relished in seeing the puzzles solved by each other. Then, once the "Usual Suspects" were done solving and finding them, the hints would open up, and contact made for help always answered. We all would rather see our caches found by those who might not otherwise solve the puzzles. Those people would have learned more about the game, more about interesting puzzles, and it could keep the game fresh.

 

Now there is little interest in this type of cache because of reluctant or stubborn puzzle cache owners, and the additional factor of instant gratification given with Traditional caches over other types for the folks after a high score in this winnerless game.

 

So I'd think that a few rounds of playing with open hands would be better than more and more continued close-to-the-vest puzzle cache play. If it could be "fun" again, and owners encouraged to share knowledge, rather than snicker and sneer at inability to solve their puzzles--rendering their caches unvisited and less appreciated by the greater community.

[+narcissa]

caches are made to be found

 

[+NeverSummer]

So not only does the final of a puzzle cache (and a multi) take up a lot of real estate, but I'm sure many time the posted coordinates deter people from placing caches anywhere near so in effect a puzzle (and multi) can take up the real estate of two caches and up here where we don't have much flat room that is a lot.

 

Boo hoo. Should have gotten there first.

 

Right?

 

Quoth a cache monster from his outdoor cave of caching, "Must have more caches that require no work beyond walking to the spot and finding cache..."

 

Pack 'em in, so long as they aren't Multis or puzzles, right? So long as they don't take away precious proximity for one or another to place another Traditional cache, I'm sure.

 

That argument from Roman! is apart from the general dislike of solving puzzles or general dislike of having to prepare for a cache hunt beyond the "normal" of getting in a car, mounting your bicycle, or lacing your boots. It's more about proximity, limitations on placements due to proximity, and the additional smaller aspect of disliking the extra prep for finding that cache type. Problem being, the Mystery/Puzzle cache type is here to stay, and the variations within can only be held to the guidelines of the game.

Edited September 16, 2014 by NeverSummer

[cezanne]

I miss the fun that was had when there were some good-natured and fun-loving puzzle makers in my community. We enjoyed batting ideas back and forth, and really relished in seeing the puzzles solved by each other. Then, once the "Usual Suspects" were done solving and finding them, the hints would open up, and contact made for help always answered. We all would rather see our caches found by those who might not otherwise solve the puzzles. Those people would have learned more about the game, more about interesting puzzles, and it could keep the game fresh.

 

So I'd think that a few rounds of playing with open hands would be better than more and more continued close-to-the-vest puzzle cache play. If it could be "fun" again, and owners encouraged to share knowledge, rather than snicker and sneer at inability to solve their puzzles--rendering their caches unvisited and less appreciated by the greater community.

 

I do not agree. In my area always a few new cachers show up with an interest in puzzle caches that are more challenging and not of the 0815 type (solve a sudoku etc).

Consider e.g. the caches of this hider

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/nearest.aspx?u=Captain+Blackadder

The caches do not get many finds, but they get finds each year and they get on average good logs and many favourite points.

I know from the hider that he prefers this by far to getting many logs, but many among them by cachers who did not solve the puzzles.

All the caches have decent containers (size small, tight etc) and all but one include a nice walk/hike. Several of them consist of

more than one stage.

 

My caches do not get many visits either, but all of them have been hidden to appeal to a particular audience and not to get many visits.

That's fully intentional. If a cache ever happened to get no further visitors for a very long time, I'd rather archive it. Giving away the final

coordinates, neither fits my idea of a cache nor would it be respectful with respect to the previous finders.

Providing hints is ok for me, but that's not possible for some caches without giving away too much.

 

Cezanne

Edited September 16, 2014 by cezanne

[+tozainamboku]

So not only does the final of a puzzle cache (and a multi) take up a lot of real estate, but I'm sure many time the posted coordinates deter people from placing caches anywhere near so in effect a puzzle (and multi) can take up the real estate of two caches and up here where we don't have much flat room that is a lot.

 

Boo hoo. Should have gotten there first.

As the owner of puzzle caches, I wuuld prefer that proximity rules be relaxed for puzzles and other hidden waypoints. They might make it difficult for people who don't do puzzle to hide a traditional cache, but people still seem to keep trying until they find a place where their cache is approved. I suspect that under the guise of trying to hide a cache it is possible to brute force the location of a puzzle. But even when that is not the intention, what ends up is that the puzzle can be found by looking for gaps where there are no traditional caches. A number of my puzzles have been found this way. Occasionally a reviewer goofs and publishes a cache despite it being too close to a puzzle or multi-stage. I keep my mouth shut when this happens because now it is much harder to brute force the puzzle cache location.

[+narcissa]

So not only does the final of a puzzle cache (and a multi) take up a lot of real estate, but I'm sure many time the posted coordinates deter people from placing caches anywhere near so in effect a puzzle (and multi) can take up the real estate of two caches and up here where we don't have much flat room that is a lot.

 

Boo hoo. Should have gotten there first.

As the owner of puzzle caches, I wuuld prefer that proximity rules be relaxed for puzzles and other hidden waypoints. They might make it difficult for people who don't do puzzle to hide a traditional cache, but people still seem to keep trying until they find a place where their cache is approved. I suspect that under the guise of trying to hide a cache it is possible to brute force the location of a puzzle. But even when that is not the intention, what ends up is that the puzzle can be found by looking for gaps where there are no traditional caches. A number of my puzzles have been found this way. Occasionally a reviewer goofs and publishes a cache despite it being too close to a puzzle or multi-stage. I keep my mouth shut when this happens because now it is much harder to brute force the puzzle cache location.

 

People trying to play Battleship with the reviewer isn't anything new, nor is complaining about proximity guidelines.

[+NeverSummer]

I miss the fun that was had when there were some good-natured and fun-loving puzzle makers in my community. We enjoyed batting ideas back and forth, and really relished in seeing the puzzles solved by each other. Then, once the "Usual Suspects" were done solving and finding them, the hints would open up, and contact made for help always answered. We all would rather see our caches found by those who might not otherwise solve the puzzles. Those people would have learned more about the game, more about interesting puzzles, and it could keep the game fresh.

 

So I'd think that a few rounds of playing with open hands would be better than more and more continued close-to-the-vest puzzle cache play. If it could be "fun" again, and owners encouraged to share knowledge, rather than snicker and sneer at inability to solve their puzzles--rendering their caches unvisited and less appreciated by the greater community.

 

I do not agree. In my area always a few new cachers show up with an interest in puzzle caches that are more challenging and not of the 0815 type (solve a sudoku etc).

Consider e.g. the caches of this hider

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/nearest.aspx?u=Captain+Blackadder

The caches do not get many finds, but they get finds each year and they get on average good logs and many favourite points.

I know from the hider that he prefers this by far to getting many logs, but many among them by cachers who did not solve the puzzles.

All the caches have decent containers (size small, tight etc) and all but one include a nice walk/hike. Several of them consist of

more than one stage.

 

My caches do not get many visits either, but all of them have been hidden to appeal to a particular audience and not to get many visits.

That's fully intentional. If a cache ever happened to get no further visitors for a very long time, I'd rather archive it. Giving away the final

coordinates, neither fits my idea of a cache nor would it be respectful with respect to the previous finders.

Providing hints is ok for me, but that's not possible for some caches without giving away too much.

 

Cezanne

Ay yai yai...

Yes, yes, when I spoke in generalizations there is always room to "argue" an exception. I understand that not everyone cares if finds happen on their caches, but I do think that the nature of the game in general would improve overall if owners went into putting out caches with no stubbornness in helping out their fellow cachers from time to time.

 

This doesn't mean all-out giving up of a solution, but more of what I described earlier as a nuanced approach that will vary greatly for the type of challenge we are talking about (sneaky find, tough puzzle, e.g.).

 

You say "giving away the final coordinates" isn't what I meant by "playing a few rounds with an open hand". If you've played cards, it means that you still play the game, but you help the other player(s) learn a bit while you still whomp on them a bit and win in the end.

[cezanne]

I understand that not everyone cares if finds happen on their caches,

 

Finds is not the same as many finds. My caches are also hidden to be found, but preferably by the target audience which means that I see no reason to contribute to finds outside of the target audience.

 

This doesn't mean all-out giving up of a solution, but more of what I described earlier as a nuanced approach that will vary greatly for the type of challenge we are talking about (sneaky find, tough puzzle, e.g.).

 

It means giving away the solution in many cases (of course not in all, but I've never claimed this to be the case). On the one hand, there are puzzle caches where all what is needed is the right idea, then everything else is trivial and there is not necessarily a way to guide someone to the right path without mentioning the idea/approach itself. On the other hand, there are caches that require a background not everyone has. Helping an untrained worker who left school early with a cache that requires say physics at university level will end up in giving away the solution.

So it can make perfect sense not to offer help for a certain puzzle cache and not to offer help under all circumstances to everyone. The best training and all help in the world will never make me eligible to find this Wherigo http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC4947M_johann-und-paul-direttissima as I will never will be able to stay within the time limit. I'm lacking the required abilities and so are others for certain puzzle caches.

 

 

 

Cezanne

[+dprovan]

So I'd think that a few rounds of playing with open hands would be better than more and more continued close-to-the-vest puzzle cache play. If it could be "fun" again, and owners encouraged to share knowledge, rather than snicker and sneer at inability to solve their puzzles--rendering their caches unvisited and less appreciated by the greater community.

All I can say is that I hope what happened in your area never happens in my area. It definite sounds like no fun. My area sounds more like your before picture.

 

Not to minimize your complaint about sucky puzzle cache COs, but COs sometimes snicker and sneer about absurdly difficult hides on traditional caches, and I find that just as annoying.

[+MKFmly]

Back to the OP

 

OK, Im not really puzzled, just wondering at what point are there to many.

 

Pick a spot near your home and run a PQ on just ? caches.

 

How many ? caches are there within 10 miles?

How many ? caches are there within 25 miles?

How far to hit the 1000 cache threshold?

Me:

 

10 miles = 68 ?s and 498 trads

25 miles = 127 ?s and 788 trads

999 ?s = 267 miles

998 trads = 40.5 miles

 

Most of those are geoart and Power trail.

[+NeverSummer]

I understand that not everyone cares if finds happen on their caches,

 

Finds is not the same as many finds. My caches are also hidden to be found, but preferably by the target audience which means that I see no reason to contribute to finds outside of the target audience.

 

This doesn't mean all-out giving up of a solution, but more of what I described earlier as a nuanced approach that will vary greatly for the type of challenge we are talking about (sneaky find, tough puzzle, e.g.).

 

It means giving away the solution in many cases (of course not in all, but I've never claimed this to be the case). On the one hand, there are puzzle caches where all what is needed is the right idea, then everything else is trivial and there is not necessarily a way to guide someone to the right path without mentioning the idea/approach itself. On the other hand, there are caches that require a background not everyone has. Helping an untrained worker who left school early with a cache that requires say physics at university level will end up in giving away the solution.

So it can make perfect sense not to offer help for a certain puzzle cache and not to offer help under all circumstances to everyone. The best training and all help in the world will never make me eligible to find this Wherigo http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC4947M_johann-und-paul-direttissima as I will never will be able to stay within the time limit. I'm lacking the required abilities and so are others for certain puzzle caches.

 

 

 

Cezanne

And what happens if you happen to "give away" the solution of the cache? Nothing. You may have helped another cacher who needed help. It's easy enough to play "cat and mouse" to find out if someone is freeloading, or actually in need of help. It's a teachable moment, and you can choose to seize the opportunity. To one person saying it is a Playfair Cypher may be a 100% giveaway, but to someone else this is only the first breadcrumb on a long trail to solutions.

 

So again, all I can say is, why not? What's the harm in helping someone learn something about puzzles and such? It takes a careful mind to give away only a bit at a time, and if you think you're not capable of that with someone who asks for help, then I see which classification can enjoy your company.

[+NeverSummer]

So I'd think that a few rounds of playing with open hands would be better than more and more continued close-to-the-vest puzzle cache play. If it could be "fun" again, and owners encouraged to share knowledge, rather than snicker and sneer at inability to solve their puzzles--rendering their caches unvisited and less appreciated by the greater community.

All I can say is that I hope what happened in your area never happens in my area. It definite sounds like no fun. My area sounds more like your before picture.

 

Not to minimize your complaint about sucky puzzle cache COs, but COs sometimes snicker and sneer about absurdly difficult hides on traditional caches, and I find that just as annoying.

Precisely.

 

What is the harm in helping others when asked? One doesn't have to "give it all away". It just takes care and thought to be as careful about what you give for a hint as it did to place a challenging hide or create a difficult puzzle. I realized as much when I created some puzzles that may have required some leaps of faith from seekers, but at least I was there to offer some help if someone could show me where they were at in the process, and where they might be stuck.

 

Sheesh, when you can't be bothered to help others...what's the point...? "I'm the meanest, sneakiest, most devilish person in the room! You're gonna love me!" If that's what you're going for, go ahead. I'd rather be surrounded by friendly, witty, thoughtful, helpful people who can be smart about how they present a challenge to others (who they've never met, nor do they have an understanding about the knowledge or understanding that person carries with them.). I'd rather be notable than notorious.

[cezanne]

And what happens if you happen to "give away" the solution of the cache? Nothing. You may have helped another cacher who needed help. It's easy enough to play "cat and mouse" to find out if someone is freeloading, or actually in need of help. It's a teachable moment, and you can choose to seize the opportunity. To one person saying it is a Playfair Cypher may be a 100% giveaway, but to someone else this is only the first breadcrumb on a long trail to solutions.

 

The playfair cypher is pretty much trivial and within the grasp of the big majority of geocachers. That's neither the case for some really difficult puzzle caches nor for caches that are really challenging for the body.

 

So again, all I can say is, why not? What's the harm in helping someone learn something about puzzles and such?

 

To return to my example, when someone has no background in phyics he will learn absolutely nothing when being provided with the solution of a puzzle that requires knowledge of some area of physics at university level.

 

That's neither an issue of whether one has a careful mind nor of not being willing to help others.

 

As I said before, noone will make me run the trail of the Wherigo I referred to above within the given time limit.

Of course the cache owner could hand out the final coordinates and the code for the lock which I guess protects the container to everyone, but do you really think that this matches with the idea of the cache?

 

Of course there exist puzzle caches where hints can be provided without giving away the solution. This is like a cache that requires a boat where someone who does not own a boat or never has used a kajak can be helped by being taken along.

 

What you overlook is that not every cache is the same. There are caches that require capabilities that only a small group has.

 

 

It takes a careful mind to give away only a bit at a time, and if you think you're not capable of that with someone who asks for help, then I see which classification can enjoy your company.

 

Please do not get personal. My arguments were not specifically about my caches. My examples referred to caches owned by someone else.

 

I wonder about your concept of "needing help" when it comes to geocaching. I do not think that everyone needs to visit every cache and that there is nothing bad about it if there are caches that are not manageable for everyone.

I do not define myself as someone who needs to be helped to log climbing caches or other physically demanding caches. Those caches have been hidden to please people who can accomplish the involved physical tasks and not to provide a further container to hide for the caches who do not fall into the right category.

 

Consider a 50km hiking multi cache. Do you consider it as the type of help you expect that the cache owner hands out the final coordinates to those who can walk only 1km?

In my understanding, there is no reason why such a person would even want to log a find for the 50km hiking multi cache as there are sufficiently many other caches.

 

I know a lot of physically much fitter caches than myself and whether or not I enjoy their company is definitely not dependent on whether they climb for others. (Actualy, I rather would regard it as quite weird if they hide a climbing cache and then do away with the major component of the cache just to end up with that everyone logs the cache. We then just could hide exclusively 1/1 caches which will ruin the fun for most.

 

Cezanne

Edited September 17, 2014 by cezanne

[+WarNinjas]

Yea if someone asks for help on one of our puzzles I often ask do you just want a hint or spoiler. Or I give them a hint then say spoiler below and put a tun of spaces down and if they choose to look all the way down on there email they will find a spoiler. I place puzzles to be found and to maybe add some fun for those who like puzzles. I am not trying to frustrate anyone.

[+niraD]

Yea if someone asks for help on one of our puzzles I often ask do you just want a hint or spoiler.

I assume they want a hint, but I first ask them what they've tried so far. It's hard to offer a good hint (other than the ones already available on the cache page) without knowing where they're stuck.

 

Sometimes, all it takes is me asking "And then what?" for them to realize that they'd all but solved it, and just gave up too early.

[+jellis]

Yea if someone asks for help on one of our puzzles I often ask do you just want a hint or spoiler. Or I give them a hint then say spoiler below and put a tun of spaces down and if they choose to look all the way down on there email they will find a spoiler. I place puzzles to be found and to maybe add some fun for those who like puzzles. I am not trying to frustrate anyone.

You mean like the exterminator truck? Thanks for the help on that one.

[+Roman!]

I think I have to be the king of threads going off topic, can I at least have a souvenir please?

[+ras_oscar]

I have no problem with puzzles, multis of mystery caches. I just run my PQ filters as traditional only and they all magically melt away. If you are interested, do them. If not, don't. I know some people enjoy them, and I'm glad. If you have lots of puzzles in you area its probably because a lot of local cachers enjoy them. Oh, and by the way, you will never log al geocaches published. Once I realized that early in my caching days, I became a lot happier.

Edited September 17, 2014 by ras_oscar

[+narcissa]

Yea if someone asks for help on one of our puzzles I often ask do you just want a hint or spoiler. Or I give them a hint then say spoiler below and put a tun of spaces down and if they choose to look all the way down on there email they will find a spoiler. I place puzzles to be found and to maybe add some fun for those who like puzzles. I am not trying to frustrate anyone.

 

I struggle with this a bit too. I don't want to give the whole thing away if they want to experience that A-Ha! moment themselves, but I also don't want them to languish and never solve it. Some people need more hand-holding than others.

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

Yea if someone asks for help on one of our puzzles I often ask do you just want a hint or spoiler. Or I give them a hint then say spoiler below and put a tun of spaces down and if they choose to look all the way down on there email they will find a spoiler. I place puzzles to be found and to maybe add some fun for those who like puzzles. I am not trying to frustrate anyone.

 

I struggle with this a bit too. I don't want to give the whole thing away if they want to experience that A-Ha! moment themselves, but I also don't want them to languish and never solve it. Some people need more hand-holding than others.

 

I follow this philosophy as well. I can usualy provide a gentle nudge that gets the cacher to the "A-ha" moment, without just giving it away. I think most cachers appreciate solving it themselves.

[+NeverSummer]

And what happens if you happen to "give away" the solution of the cache? Nothing. You may have helped another cacher who needed help. It's easy enough to play "cat and mouse" to find out if someone is freeloading, or actually in need of help. It's a teachable moment, and you can choose to seize the opportunity. To one person saying it is a Playfair Cypher may be a 100% giveaway, but to someone else this is only the first breadcrumb on a long trail to solutions.

 

The playfair cypher is pretty much trivial and within the grasp of the big majority of geocachers. That's neither the case for some really difficult puzzle caches nor for caches that are really challenging for the body.

 

So again, all I can say is, why not? What's the harm in helping someone learn something about puzzles and such?

 

To return to my example, when someone has no background in phyics he will learn absolutely nothing when being provided with the solution of a puzzle that requires knowledge of some area of physics at university level.

 

That's neither an issue of whether one has a careful mind nor of not being willing to help others.

 

As I said before, noone will make me run the trail of the Wherigo I referred to above within the given time limit.

Of course the cache owner could hand out the final coordinates and the code for the lock which I guess protects the container to everyone, but do you really think that this matches with the idea of the cache?

 

Of course there exist puzzle caches where hints can be provided without giving away the solution. This is like a cache that requires a boat where someone who does not own a boat or never has used a kajak can be helped by being taken along.

 

What you overlook is that not every cache is the same. There are caches that require capabilities that only a small group has.

 

 

It takes a careful mind to give away only a bit at a time, and if you think you're not capable of that with someone who asks for help, then I see which classification can enjoy your company.

 

Please do not get personal. My arguments were not specifically about my caches. My examples referred to caches owned by someone else.

 

I wonder about your concept of "needing help" when it comes to geocaching. I do not think that everyone needs to visit every cache and that there is nothing bad about it if there are caches that are not manageable for everyone.

I do not define myself as someone who needs to be helped to log climbing caches or other physically demanding caches. Those caches have been hidden to please people who can accomplish the involved physical tasks and not to provide a further container to hide for the caches who do not fall into the right category.

 

Consider a 50km hiking multi cache. Do you consider it as the type of help you expect that the cache owner hands out the final coordinates to those who can walk only 1km?

In my understanding, there is no reason why such a person would even want to log a find for the 50km hiking multi cache as there are sufficiently many other caches.

 

I know a lot of physically much fitter caches than myself and whether or not I enjoy their company is definitely not dependent on whether they climb for others. (Actualy, I rather would regard it as quite weird if they hide a climbing cache and then do away with the major component of the cache just to end up with that everyone logs the cache. We then just could hide exclusively 1/1 caches which will ruin the fun for most.

 

Cezanne

Oh, for the love...

 

You're reading between lines that aren't even there.

 

We clearly have different understanding about "needing help" and "asking for help". I'm a teacher by trade, and welcome the opportunities for myself and that I can provide for others, even if it is "university-level physics". If you put out that cache thinking that only university-level physicists are going to try to solve it, you're wrong. Some people may want to give it a shot. So why not help them learn something? "You" put the cache out, so you should be prepared for the fact that not everyone caches the way that you do--meaning, some non-Hawking-level mind may want to give string theory a try.

 

Lastly, we don't need to bat this back and forth. I'm clear on what you mean, yet I don't think you're clear on what I mean. At to that end, I welcome your conversation via email. I wasn't trying to get personal where you said I was, I was using the greater "you/you're". Sorry for that lapse in judgement--generally I try to use the general "one/one's" in these forums when being nonspecific.

 

I agree completely with you--we see eye to eye--on the idea that "not every cache needs to be found". But not all other cachers ascribe to that mantra. And therein is the responsibility we have as a helpful community to be prepared for the eventuality that some person may want to give a hard puzzle a shot. And again I ask, why not give that help? It fosters community, breaks down barriers to participation, and opens doors for communication and better understanding of the myriad of personalities and abilities we have amongst the millions of people playing this game.

[+J Grouchy]

I don't really understand why people will go straight to a cipher for their puzzle when the only thing involved in getting the answer is copying and pasting it into some online tool like this one or this one. There is no "figuring it out" at all unless you just enjoy busy work. There are countless other ways to hide the coordinates and still make solving a puzzle a fun part of the game.

Edited September 17, 2014 by J Grouchy

[+NeverSummer]

Yea if someone asks for help on one of our puzzles I often ask do you just want a hint or spoiler.

I assume they want a hint, but I first ask them what they've tried so far. It's hard to offer a good hint (other than the ones already available on the cache page) without knowing where they're stuck.

 

Sometimes, all it takes is me asking "And then what?" for them to realize that they'd all but solved it, and just gave up too early.

This

[cezanne]

If you put out that cache thinking that only university-level physicists are going to try to solve it, you're wrong. Some people may want to give it a shot.

 

To clarify, none of my caches deal with physics and if I had one I would not expect that only specialists try to solve it.

There are cases however where the gap between someone's background and abilities and what is required is too large to bridge it by simpling providing a helping hand.

Someone who cannot even solve a linear equation in two variables will not be able within a reasonable time to cope with a cipher which requires deep knowledge about

elliptic curve cryptography (for which no tool is available).

 

I have helped others both with some of my own caches and with solving tasks required for caches owned by someone else. I just recently offered a local

geocacher to show her a method that should make a certain cache amenable to her where she thinks that her background is not sufficient. The future will show

whether I will be succesful.

 

Still I think that much depends on the specific puzzle. I know some puzzle caches where providing help means giving the solution away. I think that it is hard to

argue about this without using concrete examples which I cannot provide without providing spoilers. In any case your and my local geocaching community differ from

each other considerably, not only with respect to the type of caches available and also with respect to the number of cachers. In countries like my own the times where

breaking down barriers for participation has been a worthwhile goal are long gone. Quite difficult puzzle caches get much more traffic around here than much easier ones in

your area.

 

I'm sorry that you misunderstood your "you". English is not my native language.

[+NeverSummer]

If you put out that cache thinking that only university-level physicists are going to try to solve it, you're wrong. Some people may want to give it a shot.

I'm sorry that you misunderstood your "you". English is not my native language.

Well, there we go again. I said "you" and meant "one"/a person.

 

To clarify, none of my caches deal with physics and if I had one I would not expect that only specialists try to solve it.

There are cases however where the gap between someone's background and abilities and what is required is too large to bridge it by simpling providing a helping hand.

Someone who cannot even solve a linear equation in two variables will not be able within a reasonable time to cope with a cipher which requires deep knowledge about

elliptic curve cryptography (for which no tool is available).

Unless one decided to take the time to help them learn. One does have the choice to help, and I personally would do my best to try to teach the requester. Some cases exist, yes, where it may be nearly impossible to solve for most people. I happen to think that if one puts out a very difficult puzzle, they need to be prepared for the conversations that will happen between them and seekers of their cache who might ask for help. If you place a cache with a puzzle so difficult that only a true genius can solve it completely unassisted, then I wonder why they bothered. But, that's their prerogative, right? And yet, we are a community, and the "I won't help you" attitude only degrades the game.

 

I have helped others both with some of my own caches and with solving tasks required for caches owned by someone else. I just recently offered a local

geocacher to show her a method that should make a certain cache amenable to her where she thinks that her background is not sufficient. The future will show

whether I will be succesful.

Well, it's great to hear that you're trying--that's the community aspect I'm getting at.

 

Still I think that much depends on the specific puzzle. I know some puzzle caches where providing help means giving the solution away.

I'll interject here. I disagree. It may be difficult to walk that fine line, but with clear information from the person seeking the solution, one can find themselves in a better position to provide a hint that does not "give it away".

 

I think that it is hard to

argue about this without using concrete examples which I cannot provide without providing spoilers. In any case your and my local geocaching community differ from

each other considerably, not only with respect to the type of caches available and also with respect to the number of cachers. In countries like my own the times where

breaking down barriers for participation has been a worthwhile goal are long gone. Quite difficult puzzle caches get much more traffic around here than much easier ones in

your area.

Well, considering I now live in an immediate area that only has 3 other cachers, yeah, you're obviously right on that last part. But I'm not talking about my current situation really. Any cache area dense with players is going to find all caches of all types getting more finds than we see here in Homer, Alaska.

 

But, you can bet your bottom that I'll help anyone from around here or around the planet if they want to come to Homer and try to solve a puzzle I've put out. "Help" doesn't have to mean "giving it away". If I say "I just helped someone get unstuck from quicksand," I'm implying that they had to do some work on their own to get out as well. Otherwise, I'd say "I pulled that guy out of the quicksand," if that were the case where they didn't have to do any work to get out.

[+niraD]

I don't really understand why people will go straight to a cipher for their puzzle when the only thing involved in getting the answer is copying and pasting it into some online tool like this one or this one. There is no "figuring it out" at all unless you just enjoy busy work. There are countless other ways to hide the coordinates and still make solving a puzzle a fun part of the game.

Even with a tool to do the decryption, often there is still an interesting challenge figuring it out to get a solution. It isn't like they just hand you the key and all you have to is copy-paste it into a decryption tool.

[+WarNinjas]

Yea if someone asks for help on one of our puzzles I often ask do you just want a hint or spoiler. Or I give them a hint then say spoiler below and put a tun of spaces down and if they choose to look all the way down on there email they will find a spoiler. I place puzzles to be found and to maybe add some fun for those who like puzzles. I am not trying to frustrate anyone.

You mean like the exterminator truck? Thanks for the help on that one.

Yea just like that! I thought it was funny you were still clicking on pictures. That is all just a red harring. That is my work truck.

[+jellis]

Yea if someone asks for help on one of our puzzles I often ask do you just want a hint or spoiler. Or I give them a hint then say spoiler below and put a tun of spaces down and if they choose to look all the way down on there email they will find a spoiler. I place puzzles to be found and to maybe add some fun for those who like puzzles. I am not trying to frustrate anyone.

You mean like the exterminator truck? Thanks for the help on that one.

Yea just like that! I thought it was funny you were still clicking on pictures. That is all just a red harring. That is my work truck.

But hey when I clicked on one of the pictures the wifi list did show up. Hmmm

And yes I know that is your truck.

[+jellis]

Yea if someone asks for help on one of our puzzles I often ask do you just want a hint or spoiler. Or I give them a hint then say spoiler below and put a tun of spaces down and if they choose to look all the way down on there email they will find a spoiler. I place puzzles to be found and to maybe add some fun for those who like puzzles. I am not trying to frustrate anyone.

You mean like the exterminator truck? Thanks for the help on that one.

Yea just like that! I thought it was funny you were still clicking on pictures. That is all just a red harring. That is my work truck.

But hey when I clicked on one of the pictures the wifi list did show up. Hmmm

And yes I know that is your truck.

BTW I use to live off Manor and Skyline

[+WarNinjas]

That is cool you used to live here! I didn't know that happened with the pic's. Extra cool. Funny thing about that puzzle was a cacher messaged me after it got published and said he figured out how to solve it but it wouldn't certify even thought he thought he was right. He didn't believe me when I said you would have to go to the location that there was no solve from home.

[+jellis]

That is cool you used to live here! I didn't know that happened with the pic's. Extra cool. Funny thing about that puzzle was a cacher messaged me after it got published and said he figured out how to solve it but it wouldn't certify even thought he thought he was right. He didn't believe me when I said you would have to go to the location that there was no solve from home.

BC (before caching)

I was living in Concord when I started. Then moved to Washington then back to Concord.

[+jellis]

That is cool you used to live here! I didn't know that happened with the pic's. Extra cool. Funny thing about that puzzle was a cacher messaged me after it got published and said he figured out how to solve it but it wouldn't certify even thought he thought he was right. He didn't believe me when I said you would have to go to the location that there was no solve from home.

I don't know how he would unless he/she somehow hacked it. Probably just pulling your leg. Also my puzzle in Berkeley the solution was posted on a Facebook page right after it went published. Not cool. I can handle cachers giving it away person to person but publish it so everyone can see it is not right. And it wasn't even that hard to solve that wouldn't that special to even post out there.

Edited September 19, 2014 by jellis

[+Walts Hunting]

That is cool you used to live here! I didn't know that happened with the pic's. Extra cool. Funny thing about that puzzle was a cacher messaged me after it got published and said he figured out how to solve it but it wouldn't certify even thought he thought he was right. He didn't believe me when I said you would have to go to the location that there was no solve from home.

 

I get down to your area to visit (lived in the area for decades after birth including 406 Northwood) and have found a couple of yours. Have others on the list (a couple of difficult hikes) for next time. I don't do many puzzles anymore. I always preferred the field puzzles over solve at home and can't find exterminator truck. Is it still active. About the disappearing pictures GS changed servers some time ago and many of the picture links were broken and had to be done over.

 

p.s. My dad owned what used to be the Texaco station next to the bowling alley which does have a field puzzle I will get to next time.

[+Walts Hunting]

That is cool you used to live here! I didn't know that happened with the pic's. Extra cool. Funny thing about that puzzle was a cacher messaged me after it got published and said he figured out how to solve it but it wouldn't certify even thought he thought he was right. He didn't believe me when I said you would have to go to the location that there was no solve from home.

 

I get down to your area to visit (lived in the area for decades after birth including 406 Northwood) and have found a couple of yours. Have others on the list (a couple of difficult hikes) for next time. I don't do many puzzles anymore. I always preferred the field puzzles over solve at home and can't find exterminator truck. Is it still active. About the disappearing pictures GS changed servers some time ago and many of the picture links were broken and had to be done over.

 

p.s. My dad owned what used to be the Texaco station next to the bowling alley which does have a field puzzle I will get to next time.

[+Gill & Tony]

Perhaps Roman! should move down here

 

Within 10 miles: 3 Challenges, one Bonus for two other caches, No Puzzles - 4 in total

Within 25 miles: Those 4 plus one puzzle.

 

1000 ? caches in 185 miles.

[+Roman!]

Perhaps Roman! should move down here

 

Within 10 miles: 3 Challenges, one Bonus for two other caches, No Puzzles - 4 in total

Within 25 miles: Those 4 plus one puzzle.

 

1000 ? caches in 185 miles.

 

I had my bags packed and was just about to book my airline ticket when I decided to check where I'd be headed to......Australia?

 

I cancelled my move, just can bring myself to move to an island that's home to 90% of the worlds poisonous species including a poisonous mammal, really? Poisonous mammals?

[+Gill & Tony]

Perhaps Roman! should move down here

 

Within 10 miles: 3 Challenges, one Bonus for two other caches, No Puzzles - 4 in total

Within 25 miles: Those 4 plus one puzzle.

 

1000 ? caches in 185 miles.

 

I had my bags packed and was just about to book my airline ticket when I decided to check where I'd be headed to......Australia?

 

I cancelled my move, just can bring myself to move to an island that's home to 90% of the worlds poisonous species including a poisonous mammal, really? Poisonous mammals?

 

That's the thing that amazes me about Australia. 7 out of 10 of the world's most venomous everything and there are still a few of us alive!

 

No worries really, they stay out in the bush and we stay away from them. Of course, if you are into hiking in the bush...

Edited September 20, 2014 by Gill & Tony