A true example why not to place a Throw Down!

[+JPreto]

So again I say, throwdowns are bad and in the first post it is a very good example of it.

I would not call it a throwdown if a replacement happens with the ok of the cache owner.

The example just shows that mistakes can happen. As I told you it happened to many cache owners that they

replaced their own cache even though the old container was still there (and has not beemn moved to another place).

Ok, great, I give up... do a replacement for another cache owner if you have his permit and you are being altruist...

 

...BUT DON´T LOG A FOUND IT!

[+narcissa]

So again I say, throwdowns are bad and in the first post it is a very good example of it.

I would not call it a throwdown if a replacement happens with the ok of the cache owner.

The example just shows that mistakes can happen. As I told you it happened to many cache owners that they

replaced their own cache even though the old container was still there (and has not beemn moved to another place).

Ok, great, I give up... do a replacement for another cache owner if you have his permit and you are being altruist...

 

...BUT DON´T LOG A FOUND IT!

 

If the owner is okay with the found it log, who cares?

[+JPreto]

How many of your 142 caches are only a magnetic strip, plastic bag, and piece of paper like the ones you posted in another thread, and how do those type caches hold up in Brazil's climate?

94 are like that and they are holding up great, except for the ones being stolen by "fellow" geocachers after they log their finds.

 

As I put it in another topic, most geocachers here don´t like to be called out to reviewers when a geocache description and hint is changed after publication, making it not within the guidelines. This is just one of the many ways they figure out to publish caches that don´t respect the guidelines... Some caches were archived others had to be changed!

Edited August 26, 2014 by JPreto

[+narcissa]

I get the sense that Brazil is the wild west of geocaching.

[+sbell111]

I get the feeling that he only 'respects' the guidelines when it is in his interest to do so.

Edited August 26, 2014 by sbell111

[+tozainamboku]

I'm at a loss as to why anyone would get their knickers twisted over this cache.

Great that you think this way!!!!

 

So you can now stop counter-posting whenever I say that I am against a Throwdown... This way your knickers won´t get twisted since clearly, I don´t mind twisting mines!!!!

 

I get the feeling that he only 'respects' the guidelines when it is in his interest to do so.

I get the impression that he truly likes getting his knickers in a twist and will go out of his way to find ways to do that.

[+JPreto]

I get the sense that Brazil is the wild west of geocaching.

Between:

 

- Geocaching Tourists (not all) coming here because of the only APE cache and placing throwdowns in almost every cache they can´t find and saying: "I hope the owner doesn´t mind...";

 

- Local Geocachers (not all, but most) trying to breach the guidelines by hiding facts from the cache so it is published;

 

- The reviewers are Portuguese, living 8.000km away, and don´t know the cultural habits and local rules (I had to explain local laws to them more than once);

 

- When the cops suspect you are doing anything that you shouldn´t be doing, like geocaching, they point a gun at you and say: "hands in the air, don´t move" even if you are in a public park, walking around with a backpack;

 

- You can´t go out geocaching at night because it is too dangerous to stop your car, even the cops advice not to stop at a red light at night after midnight.

 

YEAHHHH... I think you really got it!!!!

Edited August 26, 2014 by JPreto

[+Manville Possum]

I get the sense that Brazil is the wild west of geocaching.

Between:

 

- Geocaching Tourists (not all) coming here because of the only APE cache and placing throwdowns in almost every cache they can´t find and saying: "I hope the owner doesn´t mind...";

 

- Local Geocachers (not all, but most) trying to breach the guidelines by hiding facts from the cache so it is published;

 

- The reviewers are Portuguese, living 8.000km away, and don´t know the cultural habits and local rules (I had to explain local laws to them more than once);

 

- When the cops suspect you are doing anything that you shouldn´t be doing, like geocaching, they point a gun at you and say: "hands in the air, don´t move" even if you are in a public park, walking around with a backpack;

 

- You can´t go out geocaching at night because it is too dangerous to stop your car, even the cops advice not to stop at a red light at night after midnight.

 

YEAHHHH... I think you really got it!!!!

Is geocaching legal in Brazil? Sounds like a tough place I would not visit.

[+The A-Team]

From the guidelines:

Physical caches can be logged online as "Found" once the physical log has been signed.

You will note that they didn't add 'unless the cache owner feels like deleting your log'.

What about challenges, aren´t they caches? So if this sentence was an absolute fact I could not have done this:

 

http://coord.info/GLENBACX

 

but I did! So there are exceptions to these guideline... This is just one of them!

For someone so insistent on treating the guidelines as law, you sure don't seem very familiar with them. The very next line after the one sbell111 quoted is:

An exception is Challenge Caches, which may only be logged online after the log is signed and the challenge tasks have been met and documented to the cache owner as per instructions on the published listing.

As for your idea of numbering containers and requiring finders to find a certain number or their log will be deleted, that could be considered an Additional Logging Requirement (ALR), which are prohibited. As long as a finder signs a log at the cache site, Groundspeak will give the finder the benefit of the doubt in the event of a dispute.

 

As far as the rest of this discussion goes...

...and regarding the puritan discussion...

[cezanne]

placing throwdowns in almost every cache they can´t find and saying: "I hope the owner doesn´t mind...";

 

Don't you think that this type of behaviour (which is not limited to Brazil and tourists and in my opinion has been greatly fostered by habits coming from power trails) is much more of a problem than if someone

leaves a container at a location like the Mont Blanc in accordance with the cache owner?

 

There are certainly many cache owners who put out a large number of containers and right from the beginning expect that the community maintains their caches and I do not like this development at all. It makes newer cachers believe that leaving replacement containers when one cannot find a cache is normal and a good thing to do. If the majority of cachers asked before replacing a cache, much would have been gained.

It is for this reason why I think that you did not select the best example.

Each cache owner if asked has the chance to reply with "No, thank you". The important part in my opinion is being asked.

[4wheelin_fool]

I get the sense that Brazil is the wild west of geocaching.

Between:

 

- Geocaching Tourists (not all) coming here because of the only APE cache and placing throwdowns in almost every cache they can´t find and saying: "I hope the owner doesn´t mind...";

 

- Local Geocachers (not all, but most) trying to breach the guidelines by hiding facts from the cache so it is published;

 

- The reviewers are Portuguese, living 8.000km away, and don´t know the cultural habits and local rules (I had to explain local laws to them more than once);

 

- When the cops suspect you are doing anything that you shouldn´t be doing, like geocaching, they point a gun at you and say: "hands in the air, don´t move" even if you are in a public park, walking around with a backpack;

 

- You can´t go out geocaching at night because it is too dangerous to stop your car, even the cops advice not to stop at a red light at night after midnight.

 

YEAHHHH... I think you really got it!!!!

Is geocaching legal in Brazil? Sounds like a tough place I would not visit.

 

The last two points occur in Camden, NJ as well, and geocaching is legal there as well.

[+GeoBain]

Personal Opinion: Each cache owner should do their own maintenance.

 

This maintenance could include asking someone else to replace a container if needed. However, the owner's maintenance plan should not rely on random cachers to do their maintenance.

 

I personally would prefer a needs maintenance log if you discover any issues with my cache so that I can deal with my own maintenance. If you feel the need to place a cache so you can log a find on it, so be it. I would prefer you just log your find without the throwdown. I'm not deleting either one any way, but it sure simplifies my maintenance.

 

** edited to clarify cache owner, not cacher.

Edited August 26, 2014 by GeoBain

[+Michaelcycle]

I get the sense that Brazil is the wild west of geocaching.

Between:

 

- Geocaching Tourists (not all) coming here because of the only APE cache and placing throwdowns in almost every cache they can´t find and saying: "I hope the owner doesn´t mind...";

 

- Local Geocachers (not all, but most) trying to breach the guidelines by hiding facts from the cache so it is published;

 

- The reviewers are Portuguese, living 8.000km away, and don´t know the cultural habits and local rules (I had to explain local laws to them more than once);

 

- When the cops suspect you are doing anything that you shouldn´t be doing, like geocaching, they point a gun at you and say: "hands in the air, don´t move" even if you are in a public park, walking around with a backpack;

 

- You can´t go out geocaching at night because it is too dangerous to stop your car, even the cops advice not to stop at a red light at night after midnight.

 

YEAHHHH... I think you really got it!!!!

Is geocaching legal in Brazil? Sounds like a tough place I would not visit.

 

The last two points occur in Camden, NJ as well, and geocaching is legal there as well.

 

But at least we don't have reviewers that live 8K km away (At least I don't think Cotton Malone lives that far away, I KNOW the "O" doesn't.)

 

As regards "throw-downs" I would not allow one on any of my caches unless contacted by a former finder who indicated that the cache was missing. Since the former finder already logged it there would be no issue of allowing a find by the person placing a throw-down. I would also get out there post haste to do appropriate maintenance. ("So why allow the throw-down at all?" I hear you ask. I travel and it might be a couple of weeks before I could get to the cache site.)

[+JPreto]

As regards "throw-downs" I would not allow one on any of my caches unless contacted by a former finder who indicated that the cache was missing. Since the former finder already logged it there would be no issue of allowing a find by the person placing a throw-down. I would also get out there post haste to do appropriate maintenance. ("So why allow the throw-down at all?" I hear you ask. I travel and it might be a couple of weeks before I could get to the cache site.)

Thanks for getting back at the original topic!!!

 

Do you have a problem with disabling your cache for "a couple of weeks" so you can assure proper maintenance is done?

 

Actually my first "defense" against any problem with one of my caches is to simply disable them until I can check. Sometimes I take longer, sometimes I take just a few days until I manage to visit the cache and enable it.

 

It seems like geocachers have a problem with disabling own caches until they can be checked that they are OK to be found again...

[+colleda]

Our policy is that geocache owners are responsible for maintenance

Here is another scenario. I have already found a cache and I am visiting the area again and find the cache is now MISSING. So I replace it, write a note on the cache page that it was missing and I replaced it and for the CO to let me know if it was OK. So my assisting my fellow cacher is doing a "throwdown?" I like to think of it as more of a "hand up" or a "pick up" to assist the CO.

 

That is definitely a 'throwdown'.

 

Exactly.

Just because the cache wasn't where you saw it does not mean it may not somewhere close by. Ever heard of cache creep. As cache owner I would not want anyone one to throwdown on any of ours if they could not find it. I would want to see for myself before making the call. Luckily, throwdowns are not a big problem where we are.

[+JPreto]

Is geocaching legal in Brazil? Sounds like a tough place I would not visit.

The last two points occur in Camden, NJ as well, and geocaching is legal there as well.

TOTALLY OFF-TOPIC!!!!

Just to say, not everything is bad... There are beautiful places where great geocaches are placed! All pictures taken while geocaching...

 

Pirapora do Bom Jesus

 

 

Pedra do Baú (1950m)

 

 

Guararema

 

 

Pico Baepi (1048m)

Edited August 26, 2014 by JPreto

[+The A-Team]

It seems like geocachers have a problem with disabling own caches until they can be checked that they are OK to be found again...

That isn't the case at all. If a cache owner feels that there's a problem with a cache, it's been my experience that most will promptly disable it. I think the disconnect arises because you have a different definition of "problem" than others do. For example, you feel that if a throwdown occurs, this is a problem significant enough to disable a cache. Others feel that there's a container to be found and it isn't significant enough to disable the cache over. Sure, most will get out there at some point to check on the throwdown and original container, but in the meantime, why not let cachers continue to find the cache and experience the location? After all, you are placing caches for some reason other than just to place a cache, right?

 

As an example, a similar situation to the one in the OP happened to one of my caches this past spring. It's a cache in a more remote area where it would take a few hours to drive to and I don't normally pass through. I received a few DNFs that indicated to me that it was likely missing, and another local cacher offered to place a replacement container. I happily told them they could go ahead, and I had no problem with them logging a find. I fully intend to replace it with a larger container when I can (I actually tried once already, but muggles were camping right at GZ), but in the meantime, there's no reason why other cachers shouldn't seek it out. There's a container there to be found, and the reason for the cache isn't the container anyway, but the location.

[+Manville Possum]

Is geocaching legal in Brazil? Sounds like a tough place I would not visit.

The last two points occur in Camden, NJ as well, and geocaching is legal there as well.

TOTALLY OFF-TOPIC!!!!

Just to say, not everything is bad... There are beautiful places where great geocaches are placed! All pictures taken while geocaching...

 

Pirapora do Bom Jesus

 

 

Pedra do Baú (1950m)

 

 

Guararema

 

 

Pico Baepi (1048m)

Dude, you were the one that painted the picture of the gestapo cops pointing guns at people geocaching because they are not suppose to. Don't blame me for asking. Sure, Brazil is a beautfil country, but do I need an armed escort to geocache there?

[+tozainamboku]

I get the sense that Brazil is the wild west of geocaching.

Between:

 

- Geocaching Tourists (not all) coming here because of the only APE cache and placing throwdowns in almost every cache they can´t find and saying: "I hope the owner doesn´t mind...";

 

- Local Geocachers (not all, but most) trying to breach the guidelines by hiding facts from the cache so it is published;

 

- The reviewers are Portuguese, living 8.000km away, and don´t know the cultural habits and local rules (I had to explain local laws to them more than once);

 

- When the cops suspect you are doing anything that you shouldn´t be doing, like geocaching, they point a gun at you and say: "hands in the air, don´t move" even if you are in a public park, walking around with a backpack;

 

- You can´t go out geocaching at night because it is too dangerous to stop your car, even the cops advice not to stop at a red light at night after midnight.

 

YEAHHHH... I think you really got it!!!!

I get the feeling that living a country with a high crime rate and rampant police corruption might make anyone inclined toward becoming a vigilante. Perhaps it's better that JPreto has turned this inclination toward geocaching.

Edited August 27, 2014 by tozainamboku

[Mr.Yuck]

I get the sense that Brazil is the wild west of geocaching.

Between:

 

- Geocaching Tourists (not all) coming here because of the only APE cache and placing throwdowns in almost every cache they can´t find and saying: "I hope the owner doesn´t mind...";

 

- Local Geocachers (not all, but most) trying to breach the guidelines by hiding facts from the cache so it is published;

 

- The reviewers are Portuguese, living 8.000km away, and don´t know the cultural habits and local rules (I had to explain local laws to them more than once);

 

- When the cops suspect you are doing anything that you shouldn´t be doing, like geocaching, they point a gun at you and say: "hands in the air, don´t move" even if you are in a public park, walking around with a backpack;

 

- You can´t go out geocaching at night because it is too dangerous to stop your car, even the cops advice not to stop at a red light at night after midnight.

 

YEAHHHH... I think you really got it!!!!

Is geocaching legal in Brazil? Sounds like a tough place I would not visit.

 

The last two points occur in Camden, NJ as well, and geocaching is legal there as well.

 

I think we could add at least 4 New Jersey Cities to that list.

 

The first point is a very good one that most of us North Americans would overlook, and helps to explain the OP's rigid anti throwdown stance. There is a very very high incidence of throwdowns on "tourist caches" in Countries where Geocaching is not all that popular.

 

As far as the very last point Jpreto made, does that mean it's too dangerous to stop your car at a light after midnight anywhere in the Country??

[4wheelin_fool]

I get the sense that Brazil is the wild west of geocaching.

Between:

 

- Geocaching Tourists (not all) coming here because of the only APE cache and placing throwdowns in almost every cache they can´t find and saying: "I hope the owner doesn´t mind...";

 

- Local Geocachers (not all, but most) trying to breach the guidelines by hiding facts from the cache so it is published;

 

- The reviewers are Portuguese, living 8.000km away, and don´t know the cultural habits and local rules (I had to explain local laws to them more than once);

 

- When the cops suspect you are doing anything that you shouldn´t be doing, like geocaching, they point a gun at you and say: "hands in the air, don´t move" even if you are in a public park, walking around with a backpack;

 

- You can´t go out geocaching at night because it is too dangerous to stop your car, even the cops advice not to stop at a red light at night after midnight.

 

YEAHHHH... I think you really got it!!!!

I get the feeling that living a country with a high crime rate and rampant police corruption might make anyone inclined toward becoming a vigilante. Perhaps it's better that JPreto has turned this inclination toward geocaching.

 

It's actually directly related to the prevalence of people who are unlikely to follow any type of authority, including following geocaching guidelines, and allowing throwdowns.

 

I'd also guess that geocachers would rather place a throwdown, than spend an extended amount of time looking suspicious trying to find something that would be difficult to explain to most people. So, yes it is on topic.

 

Personally I don't really like throwdowns, but if I know for sure that the original is missing and the owner doesn't mind, I'll log it. I'm not obsessed enough yet to demand proof that the owner officially condones it.

Edited August 27, 2014 by 4wheelin_fool

[+Crow-T-Robot]

So again I say, throwdowns are bad and in the first post it is a very good example of it.

I would not call it a throwdown if a replacement happens with the ok of the cache owner.

The example just shows that mistakes can happen. As I told you it happened to many cache owners that they

replaced their own cache even though the old container was still there (and has not beemn moved to another place).

Ok, great, I give up... do a replacement for another cache owner if you have his permit and you are being altruist...

 

...BUT DON´T LOG A FOUND IT!

 

If the owner is okay with the found it log, who cares?

 

Nosey busybodies care. Heaven forbid someone logs a find on a throwdown and wins the internet! They must be stopped at all costs.

[4wheelin_fool]

I get the sense that Brazil is the wild west of geocaching.

Between:

 

- Geocaching Tourists (not all) coming here because of the only APE cache and placing throwdowns in almost every cache they can´t find and saying: "I hope the owner doesn´t mind...";

 

- Local Geocachers (not all, but most) trying to breach the guidelines by hiding facts from the cache so it is published;

 

- The reviewers are Portuguese, living 8.000km away, and don´t know the cultural habits and local rules (I had to explain local laws to them more than once);

 

- When the cops suspect you are doing anything that you shouldn´t be doing, like geocaching, they point a gun at you and say: "hands in the air, don´t move" even if you are in a public park, walking around with a backpack;

 

- You can´t go out geocaching at night because it is too dangerous to stop your car, even the cops advice not to stop at a red light at night after midnight.

 

YEAHHHH... I think you really got it!!!!

Is geocaching legal in Brazil? Sounds like a tough place I would not visit.

 

The last two points occur in Camden, NJ as well, and geocaching is legal there as well.

 

I think we could add at least 4 New Jersey Cities to that list.

 

The first point is a very good one that most of us North Americans would overlook, and helps to explain the OP's rigid anti throwdown stance. There is a very very high incidence of throwdowns on "tourist caches" in Countries where Geocaching is not all that popular.

 

As far as the very last point Jpreto made, does that mean it's too dangerous to stop your car at a light after midnight anywhere in the Country??

 

I think there's a city in every state that we could add to that list, and the local cache owners would likely allow throwdowns, as well as despise any type of "narking" about silly guidelines.

[+qtbluemoon]

Our policy is that geocache owners are responsible for maintenance

Here is another scenario. I have already found a cache and I am visiting the area again and find the cache is now MISSING. So I replace it, write a note on the cache page that it was missing and I replaced it and for the CO to let me know if it was OK. So my assisting my fellow cacher is doing a "throwdown?" I like to think of it as more of a "hand up" or a "pick up" to assist the CO.

 

That is definitely a 'throwdown'.

That is not a 'throwdown', because he's not getting anything out of the deal, he is trying to help the CO. It's when they can't find the cache, and need the smiley, so they throw any ol' thing down there. What makes it even worse is when the CO is no longer active, and their "silence" supposedly gives permission for the replacement. Just chaps my hide, or gets my knickers in a twist, or a burr up my butt, take your choice.

 

Whew, that felt good.

[+wmpastor]

When the cops suspect you are doing anything that you shouldn´t be doing, like geocaching, they point a gun at you and say: "hands in the air, don´t move" even if you are in a public park, walking around with a backpack.

 

Pleeeeeease tell me they don't say "Drop your weapon!" as I hold an $800 GPSr high the the air, standing on a concrete sidewalk.

 

(And the gun is a semi-automatic rifle.)

[+Crow-T-Robot]

That is not a 'throwdown', because he's not getting anything out of the deal, he is trying to help the CO. It's when they can't find the cache, and need the smiley, so they throw any ol' thing down there. What makes it even worse is when the CO is no longer active, and their "silence" supposedly gives permission for the replacement. Just chaps my hide, or gets my knickers in a twist, or a burr up my butt, take your choice.

 

Whew, that felt good.

 

You don't have to "get anything out of the deal" for it to be a throwdown. You can call it whatever you want: being a cache angel, a good samaritan, community maintainance, etc, but if it's not your geocache, you shouldn't replace it without the owners permission.

[+wmpastor]

That is definitely a 'throwdown'.

That is not a 'throwdown.'

 

Lets get these two cats into a podcast debate. Live one-on-one brawling. Lets solve this issue once and for all. We can have some cats hamsters from headquarters moderate.

[4wheelin_fool]

When the cops suspect you are doing anything that you shouldn´t be doing, like geocaching, they point a gun at you and say: "hands in the air, don´t move" even if you are in a public park, walking around with a backpack.

 

Pleeeeeease tell me they don't say "Drop your weapon!" as I hold an $800 GPSr high the the air, standing on a concrete sidewalk.

 

(And the gun is a semi-automatic rifle.)

 

You apparently haven't seen my blueprints for building a zip gun which fits inside of a Garmin 60CSX and fires radically invasive 9mm projectiles.

[+qtbluemoon]

That is not a 'throwdown', because he's not getting anything out of the deal, he is trying to help the CO. It's when they can't find the cache, and need the smiley, so they throw any ol' thing down there. What makes it even worse is when the CO is no longer active, and their "silence" supposedly gives permission for the replacement. Just chaps my hide, or gets my knickers in a twist, or a burr up my butt, take your choice.

 

Whew, that felt good.

 

You don't have to "get anything out of the deal" for it to be a throwdown. You can call it whatever you want: being a cache angel, a good samaritan, community maintainance, etc, but if it's not your geocache, you shouldn't replace it without the owners permission.

Throwdowns are placed so the geocacher can log a find on a geocache that they couldn't find and suspect is missing.

Logging the find is what makes it a throwdown.

[cezanne]

I think the disconnect arises because you have a different definition of "problem" than others do. For example, you feel that if a throwdown occurs, this is a problem significant enough to disable a cache. Others feel that there's a container to be found and it isn't significant enough to disable the cache over. Sure, most will get out there at some point to check on the throwdown and original container, but in the meantime, why not let cachers continue to find the cache and experience the location? After all, you are placing caches for some reason other than just to place a cache, right?

 

There's a container there to be found' date=' and the reason for the cache isn't the container anyway, but the location.

[/quote']

 

I fully agree. As all my caches are complex and involve several stages and some of them also puzzle parts, it is only important for me that there is a container to be found at the end and that cachers who happened to have started with one of my caches some time ago (some of my caches are done in parts by many cachers over weeks - a situation which will not arise likely for JPreto's cache except his challenges, but that's a different issue) could go ahead and finish off. Disabling such caches for a longer time than necessary does not make sense to me. So if I get an offer for help in such a situation and I trust the helper, I accept the offer with pleasure.

Of course, I will also pay a later visit to the final location or the locations where something needed to be fixed.

 

I think indeed that the reason why someone created a cache, plays an important role in this person's attitude to having a new container placed by someone else. I can well imagine that a series of quick grab and stop micros like many caches owned by JPreto motivate much more cachers to leave throwdowns hoping that the cache owners will accept them and the matching found it logs than it happens for caches like mine.

 

The comment by JPreto that he plans to number his containers in the future, made me remember that I even considered to leave for a certain cache two final containers at trees nearby. I used this approach successfully already for intermediary stages of a multi cache nearby. If the same coordinates can be used and if one accepts finds in both containers, the only issue that might arise is that trackables might easier get stuck. However, a lot of cachers are so kind and report me whether also the backup stages are available and they might do the same for the final.

 

For all my caches I wish that everyone who went through what need to be done (which can be complex and/or involve a long walk) in the course of the cache should find the container at the final. I'm unhappy about every did not find log that results by someone failing with the search at the final and not something else. The search at the final is never intended as a challenge part of my caches.

 

 

Cezanne

[+JPreto]

I think there's a city in every state that we could add to that list, and the local cache owners would likely allow throwdowns, as well as despise any type of "narking" about silly guidelines.

Yup, this is the way I think many feel about guidelines, something made up for other countries, not ours!

Edited August 27, 2014 by JPreto

[+JPreto]

You don't have to "get anything out of the deal" for it to be a throwdown. You can call it whatever you want: being a cache angel, a good samaritan, community maintainance, etc, but if it's not your geocache, you shouldn't replace it without the owners permission.

OK we agree on most part... I would just include that even with owner permission you shouldn´t if you don´t know the exact place where the geocache is, how can you warrant the original cache is not there. See the original post!

[+JPreto]

Logging the find is what makes it a throwdown.

No, I don´t think so... Imagine, a group of 4 go geocaching, one places a new cache because they couldn´t find the container and the remaining 3 log the finds but not the one that placed the new container.

 

So, no Throwdown here?

[+JPreto]

The comment by JPreto that he plans to number his containers in the future, made me remember that I even considered to leave for a certain cache two final containers at trees nearby. I used this approach successfully already for intermediary stages of a multi cache nearby. If the same coordinates can be used and if one accepts finds in both containers, the only issue that might arise is that trackables might easier get stuck.

If any reviewer knew about this he would probably disable the cache and ask you to remove one of the containers. 2 containers in the same coordinates and you can sign any of them?!?!?

[cezanne]

You don't have to "get anything out of the deal" for it to be a throwdown. You can call it whatever you want: being a cache angel, a good samaritan, community maintainance, etc, but if it's not your geocache, you shouldn't replace it without the owners permission.

OK we agree on most part... I would just include that even with owner permission you shouldn´t if you don´t know the exact place where the geocache is, how can you warrant the original cache is not there. See the original post!

 

As I told you, noone can know this for sure, including the owner.

At some point one needs to make a decision on whether to replace a cache or not. Sometimes it could even be easier for someone who has not hidden the cache to find it.

Moreover, some areas can change enormously over time.

[+JPreto]

You don't have to "get anything out of the deal" for it to be a throwdown. You can call it whatever you want: being a cache angel, a good samaritan, community maintainance, etc, but if it's not your geocache, you shouldn't replace it without the owners permission.

OK we agree on most part... I would just include that even with owner permission you shouldn´t if you don´t know the exact place where the geocache is, how can you warrant the original cache is not there. See the original post!

As I told you, noone can know this for sure, including the owner.

At some point one needs to make a decision on whether to replace a cache or not. Sometimes it could even be easier for someone who has not hidden the cache to find it.

Moreover, some areas can change enormously over time.

Minimizing the possibility of duplicating caches in the location... It doesn´t have to be 100% bulletproof.

[+qtbluemoon]

Logging the find is what makes it a throwdown.

No, I don´t think so... Imagine, a group of 4 go geocaching, one places a new cache because they couldn´t find the container and the remaining 3 log the finds but not the one that placed the new container.

 

So, no Throwdown here?

Yes, that would be a throwdown. What, did his buddies hide their eyes while he placed the cache? A group of 4, they're all in it together, if 3 sign, they all sign. Why wouldn't he sign? Your scenario wouldn't happen.

[cezanne]

Minimizing the possibility of duplicating caches in the location... It doesn´t have to be 100% bulletproof.

 

But then why do you insist that ° had no information on the cache hideout if even the cache owner can fail to find the cache.

I still think that you did not select a good example to argue against throwdowns. What happened in this example, could happen to the cache

owner, too - probably with a smaller probability depending on the situation, but still it can happen. This is an inherent risk of

every container replacement. Maybe you should wait until you are into geocaching for a much longer time to see that sometimes the memory

how a cache is hidden can fade away considerably over the years and also to see how enormously areas can change over time.

I have revisited many cache locations more than once and in some cases I was convinced that a cache (not one of mine) must have gone lost, but it still

was there as it turned out later.

[+JPreto]

Logging the find is what makes it a throwdown.

No, I don´t think so... Imagine, a group of 4 go geocaching, one places a new cache because they couldn´t find the container and the remaining 3 log the finds but not the one that placed the new container.

So, no Throwdown here?

Yes, that would be a throwdown. What, did his buddies hide their eyes while he placed the cache? A group of 4, they're all in it together, if 3 sign, they all sign. Why wouldn't he sign? Your scenario wouldn't happen.

GeoCaching is a "everything can happen" game...

 

The guy placing the throwdown can just be one of those "smart guys" that thinks: "If I place the cache and you find it the owner can´t delete your logs... hahahahah!"

 

Or even better, the guy has 2 accounts and uses one of them for throwdowns and the other for logging... hahahahah!

[+JPreto]

Maybe you should wait until you are into geocaching for a much longer time to see that sometimes the memory

how a cache is hidden can fade away considerably over the years and also to see how enormously areas can change over time.

That is why I take photos of the area and closeups of the locations of every cache I place... So my memory doesn´t fade away.

 

But even then, cases like this happen... http://coord.info/GLFBF5JZ

Edited August 27, 2014 by JPreto

[+wmpastor]

Maybe you should wait until you are into geocaching for a much longer time to see that sometimes the memory

how a cache is hidden can fade away considerably over the years and also to see how enormously areas can change over time.

That is why I take photos of the area and closeups of the locations of every cache I place... So my memory doesn´t fade away.

 

But even then, cases like this happen... http://coord.info/GLFBF5JZ

Looks like a rare case of a cacher findng a "better" place for the cache (apparently less than one meter away because no change of coords, right?) and the CO agreeing.

 

I would never change the location on my own. If I saw that a small move would leave the cache "better protected" as in the link, I'd email the CO who could decide. Of course that brings up the question of whether caches in remote places have slightly different rules. Other issues: Was there cache migration? Has the growth of plants changed GZ?

[RuideAlmeida]

... except for the ones being stolen by "fellow" geocachers after they log their finds.

 

I would like to see you prove such claim. Everybody would, in fact. Shame on you!

In a city with 18 millions people, not considering perfectly normal that an urban cache can disappear, blaming the community instead, says a lot about yourself.

[+narcissa]

The last two points occur in Camden, NJ as well, and geocaching is legal there as well.

 

Yeah... we geocache with extreme caution whenever we're in the US. Compared to here, it can be a little scary!

[+JPreto]

... except for the ones being stolen by "fellow" geocachers after they log their finds.

 

I would like to see you prove such claim. Everybody would, in fact. Shame on you!

In a city with 18 millions people, not considering perfectly normal that an urban cache can disappear, blaming the community instead, says a lot about yourself.

As you know I check my own caches regularly, moreover the ones that are near my house. Funny enough, suspecting what might happen after a Sunday geocaching meeting I went to check them on Saturday... On Monday most of them were gone. Not to mention the one, placed 2m high in a tree that got filled with feces and the "fellow geocacher" even placed a found log teasing...

 

Ohhh yes, you are right, Mr. Forum Moderator that uses facebook to instigante even more problems between geocachers.

 

"Before you acuse me, take a look At yourself..." come on, sing it...

[+JPreto]

Maybe you should wait until you are into geocaching for a much longer time to see that sometimes the memory

how a cache is hidden can fade away considerably over the years and also to see how enormously areas can change over time.

That is why I take photos of the area and closeups of the locations of every cache I place... So my memory doesn´t fade away.

 

But even then, cases like this happen... http://coord.info/GLFBF5JZ

Looks like a rare case of a cacher findng a "better" place for the cache (apparently less than one meter away because no change of coords, right?) and the CO agreeing.

 

I would never change the location on my own. If I saw that a small move would leave the cache "better protected" as in the link, I'd email the CO who could decide. Of course that brings up the question of whether caches in remote places have slightly different rules. Other issues: Was there cache migration? Has the growth of plants changed GZ?

20cm from where I placed it... 4 small trees are growing together and I had placed the cache on the outside of that group of trees. The cache was in the middle of the group of trees when I revisited it, making it less visible to muggles.

[Andronicus]

Here is a great success story about through downs.

 

A couple of years back, I was planning a hike up a mountain to find a few caches. The CO of one of the caches found out I was heading up, and asked me to replace a missing cache. I graciously accepted his request, and placed a new container where my GPS zeroed out. I logged that cache, and so did another cacher the next day. There was absolutely no drama. Everyone was happy.

 

The point? There is no single answer that covers all scenarios. Stop trying to make blanket statements like "never leave a through down".

[+MKFmly]

Here is a great success story about through downs.

 

A couple of years back, I was planning a hike up a mountain to find a few caches. The CO of one of the caches found out I was heading up, and asked me to replace a missing cache. I graciously accepted his request, and placed a new container where my GPS zeroed out. I logged that cache, and so did another cacher the next day. There was absolutely no drama. Everyone was happy.

 

The point? There is no single answer that covers all scenarios. Stop trying to make blanket statements like "never leave a through down".

Arguably, that is arranged and approved maintenance not a throwdown,...

[Andronicus]

Here is a great success story about through downs.

 

A couple of years back, I was planning a hike up a mountain to find a few caches. The CO of one of the caches found out I was heading up, and asked me to replace a missing cache. I graciously accepted his request, and placed a new container where my GPS zeroed out. I logged that cache, and so did another cacher the next day. There was absolutely no drama. Everyone was happy.

 

The point? There is no single answer that covers all scenarios. Stop trying to make blanket statements like "never leave a through down".

Arguably, that is arranged and approved maintenance not a throwdown,...

While I would agree with you, the CO started by critisizing a very similar situation. The only real difference was the one the CO discussed was a old unfound cache.

[+sbell111]

I get the sense that Brazil is the wild west of geocaching.

Between:

 

- Geocaching Tourists (not all) coming here because of the only APE cache and placing throwdowns in almost every cache they can´t find and saying: "I hope the owner doesn´t mind...";

 

- Local Geocachers (not all, but most) trying to breach the guidelines by hiding facts from the cache so it is published;

 

- The reviewers are Portuguese, living 8.000km away, and don´t know the cultural habits and local rules (I had to explain local laws to them more than once);

 

- When the cops suspect you are doing anything that you shouldn´t be doing, like geocaching, they point a gun at you and say: "hands in the air, don´t move" even if you are in a public park, walking around with a backpack;

 

- You can´t go out geocaching at night because it is too dangerous to stop your car, even the cops advice not to stop at a red light at night after midnight.

 

YEAHHHH... I think you really got it!!!!

Is geocaching legal in Brazil? Sounds like a tough place I would not visit.

 

The last two points occur in Camden, NJ as well, and geocaching is legal there as well.

That's why I don't geocache in New Jersey or Brazil.

[+sbell111]

Is geocaching legal in Brazil? Sounds like a tough place I would not visit.

The last two points occur in Camden, NJ as well, and geocaching is legal there as well.

TOTALLY OFF-TOPIC!!!!

Just to say, not everything is bad... There are beautiful places where great geocaches are placed! All pictures taken while geocaching...

People from New Jersey claim that there's beautiful places there, also. They actually call it the Garden State, for some reason.

Edited August 27, 2014 by sbell111