D1T5 caches - possible?

[+GeoLog81]

I can imagine D5T1 cache, but I can't imagine D1T5 cache. Some people claim that big 'bird house' on the top of the tree, which you can see from far away is D1 because it's zero-time to find it.

 

But as I understand, D is the total estimated time to reach the cache, so even if you can see it from far away, it still takes you much time to climb to it, so it's not really a D1.

 

On the other hand, the magnetic on the lantern 4 meters above it's not really a T5? You need a ladder or 2-3 people to help, but even if a ladder is an extra equipment, it requires zero skills to use it, so maybe T4.5 but not T5.

 

Are there any real D1T5 possible? I suppose many are described as D1 only to allow other folks to make matrix... Or did I get the difficulty/terrain parameters wrong?

[+Walts Hunting]

You are a premium member. Run a PQ for d1t5 and see what you get. That should give you some guidance. I have 32 of them close by.

 

D i(as applied to traditionals) s more about how difficult it us to find the cache when you get there not about time to get there.

Edited May 12, 2014 by Walts Hunting

[+palmetto]

Terrain rating is for the difficulty in getting to GZ, and difficulty is for finding the cache once there. Sometimes there is a gray area, and a hard approach can tire a person to where a simple find can take time.

 

A cache requiring a boat or climbing gear is T5. Once on site, the cache could be a big box, just sitting there. T 5, D 1.

I've attended T5 D1 events. Once you're there, it's not hard to find the group.

 

A tree climbing cache where a sane person would use gear to climb and the container was of size to be visible from the ground could be T5 D1. Often tree climbing caches are hard to find, not visible until you're in just the right spot, so not D 1.

[+Walts Hunting]

Most of the ones in the PQ I did were water related and you needed a boat. That takes care of the t5 part and an ammocan on an island is d1

[+GeoLog81]

 

A cache requiring a boat or climbing gear is T5.

 

And when the only what's needed is ladder or it's a little lake and you can swim 30 meters, it's still T5?

[+Touchstone]

 

A cache requiring a boat or climbing gear is T5.

 

And when the only what's needed is ladder or it's a little lake and you can swim 30 meters, it's still T5?

 

Link for reference:

 

What does D/T mean?

 

In your example above, I would describe the ladder example as "special equipment", so the Terrain would be a 5.

 

In the swimming example, I would describe that as specialized knowledge or skill, so the Difficulty would be a 5.

 

And don't get me started on Challenge Listings

 

Clear as mud now?

[Pup Patrol]

 

A cache requiring a boat or climbing gear is T5.

 

And when the only what's needed is ladder or it's a little lake and you can swim 30 meters, it's still T5?

 

I don't do heights, and I can't swim.

 

Help Center → Hiding a Geocache → Review Process: Hiding a Geocache

 

1.14. Ratings for Difficulty and Terrain

 

http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=82

 

Terrain:

 

5 star Extremely challenging terrain

 

Requires specialized equipment (boat, 4WD, rock climbing, SCUBA, etc.) or is otherwise extremely difficult.

 

 

B.

[+J Grouchy]

 

A cache requiring a boat or climbing gear is T5.

 

And when the only what's needed is ladder or it's a little lake and you can swim 30 meters, it's still T5?

 

Link for reference:

 

What does D/T mean?

 

In your example above, I would describe the ladder example as "special equipment", so the Terrain would be a 5.

 

In the swimming example, I would describe that as specialized knowledge or skill, so the Difficulty would be a 5.

 

And don't get me started on Challenge Listings

 

Clear as mud now?

 

Yeah...I don't really like the "special equipment being the only thing that makes it a T5" rule. So a 1000 foot ascent over a half mile hike on rocky terrain might be a T4.5, but a short boat ride half a mile to a D1 island cache makes it a T5? In my opinion, the "special equipment" thing should be an attribute and shouldn't govern the terrain rating.

Edited May 12, 2014 by J Grouchy

[+GeoLog81]

 

Yeah...I don't really like the "special equipment being the only thing that makes it a T5" rule. So a 1000 foot ascent over a half mile hike on rocky terrain might be a T4.5, but a short boat ride half a mile to a D1 island cache makes it a T5? In my opinion, the "special equipment" thing should be an attribute and shouldn't govern the difficulty rating.

 

1000 foot is about 300m? If so, It's quite trivial for me to made, but I don't walk with a boat and swimming half a mile is extreme for me... But if it's only 30m swimming, maybe T5 is too much? It's inflating T5, how to compare a trivial swim/climb with climbing Mount Blanc or similar?

[+Walts Hunting]

You are right about the way T5 is used. I put out a cache that can only be found by owners of android phones that have nfc reader. I got a couple of emails that it should be a T5 because of that. Making any special equipment t5 probably made sense at the time of origin but as the hobby has grown it does get used strangely and some communities ignore it.

 

You go into some areas that required a 4WD vehicle and the community seems to modify that and use a T level that reflects what type you need depending on the trail. T1 for your small SUV and T5 for a rock hopping large tire experience.

 

You might want to think about taking a somewhat holistic view of this hobby. I consider it ill regulated and mildly anachronistic. Some things are going to have wide ranging definitions and you just have to realize that. Trying to lock this complex hobby down to a set of specific guidelines isn't going to happen.

 

Remember Bob Marley

[+niraD]

But as I understand, D is the total estimated time to reach the cache, so even if you can see it from far away, it still takes you much time to climb to it, so it's not really a D1.

When I read the descriptions of difficulty ratings in Ratings for Difficulty and Terrain, I see references to "searching" and "hunting" and "to find" and "to find or open the geocache". And when I read the descriptions of terrain ratings, I see references to "hike".

 

For difficulty ratings, it doesn't matter how long it takes you to get to the coordinates. What matters is how long it takes you to find the cache once you get there.

 

And for terrain ratings, it doesn't matter how long it takes you to find the cache once you get there. What matters is how long it takes you to get to the coordinates.

[+MKFmly]

Most of the ones in the PQ I did were water related and you needed a boat.

This is a problem as part of the definition of T5 in that it's not adjusted for climate. Our water is frozen 4 monthes out of the year and any boat requirement is made redundent with a vehicle, ATV/Snowmachine, or a nice hike.

 

In my opinion, the "special equipment" thing should be an attribute and shouldn't govern the difficulty rating.

agreed

[team tisri]

 

A cache requiring a boat or climbing gear is T5.

 

And when the only what's needed is ladder or it's a little lake and you can swim 30 meters, it's still T5?

 

Link for reference:

 

What does D/T mean?

 

In your example above, I would describe the ladder example as "special equipment", so the Terrain would be a 5.

 

In the swimming example, I would describe that as specialized knowledge or skill, so the Difficulty would be a 5.

 

And don't get me started on Challenge Listings

 

Clear as mud now?

 

I don't know I'd call swimming 30 metres as "specialized knowledge or skill" deserving of a D5 rating given how many 8-year-old children can do it.

 

Truth be told rating something as T5 because the easiest way to get at it is with a ladder seems like a bit of a stretch. In theory the kind of cache where you have to pour water into a tube to float the film pot to the top could class as a T5 because a bottle of water is the "special equipment" you need to get at the cache.

 

The issue of what counts as "special equipment" seems like it's very vague and has the potential to generate lots of heat and very little light. If you place a Chirp cache do you need "special equipment" in that whatever you use has to be able to locate the beacon? If you place a cache using Bluetooth does that count? What if you need a Philips screwdriver to open the cache once you find it? On the other hand, if you've got a cache that involves a difficult climb but the climb can be bypassed by using a ladder, does that raise or lower the terrain rating?

 

Likewise the concept of "specialized knowledge or skill" seems very vague. If you've got a puzzle that is impossible to solve unless you can figure out that the text is written in ancient Sanskrit and then reversed maybe it's deserving of a D5 rating. If you have to swim to get to the cache that seems like more of a stretch - something being "specialized" suggests that if you picked someone at random off the street the chances are they wouldn't have the skill or knowledge in question. The ability to swim a short distance probably doesn't fall into this category.

 

In general, on the topic of a D1/T5 cache I'd agree that if you've got a particularly difficult task to get to GZ but once you're there the cache is a stonking great ammo can sitting in the middle of a clearing with a big "Here is the cache" sign in neon letters pointing at the cache, it doesn't get much harder to get to the GZ (T5) but once there it doesn't get much easier to find the cache (D1).

[+J Grouchy]

Most of the ones in the PQ I did were water related and you needed a boat.

This is a problem as part of the definition of T5 in that it's not adjusted for climate. Our water is frozen 4 monthes out of the year and any boat requirement is made redundent with a vehicle, ATV/Snowmachine, or a nice hike.

 

In my opinion, the "special equipment" thing should be an attribute and shouldn't govern the difficulty terrain rating.

agreed

 

Sorry...have to correct myself above.

[+Touchstone]

I don't know I'd call swimming 30 metres as "specialized knowledge or skill" deserving of a D5 rating given how many 8-year-old children can do it.

 

The CDC states:

 

Drowning ranks fifth among the leading causes of unintentional injury death in the United States.

 

So yes, I would consider the ability to swim/float to be a "specialized skill"....even 30 meters. Given how ubiquitous swimming instruction is in the U.S., that's actually an alarming statistic.

[+tomfuller & Quill]

The ability to swim, grab the cache, open it, take out the log without getting it wet, sign it and put it back without drowning is a specialized skill.

The first T5 cache I did, I walked to the island when the lake was very low. One pair of cachers that I know put out caches that can only be reached by boat but they never put a T5 on them

[+WarNinjas]

If it is really easy to find even after a crazy way to get there then it is still a difficulty of 1. As far as terrain I don't think it is at all about time but about the terrain. We went as a group to a tree climbing cache this weekend that was crazy. All the branches below had been cut off so starting and ending would have been crazy. Then the cache was about 60 feet up or more! If you just did it then it wouldn't have taken a long time but would have taken crazy nerve! We passed on it.

[+Mineral2]

Terrain ratings should be about the physical effort required to get to GZ. A flat hike of a mile, maybe T3 or T4. A 2 mile hike up 1000 feet, T5. That may not sound like a T5 for an avid hiker, but to the average geocacher, that's going to create some huffing and puffing. Require a boat to get there? T5. Again, there's effort involved just getting a boat into and out of the water. Requires climbing and/or scrambling? T5

 

T5 ratings say "Hey, you might want to have some kind of experience or be in decent physical condition to get to this cache."

 

I plan to place a cache two miles in with a 700 ft. vertical climb over the course of 1.2 miles. That may get a T5 rating since the round-trip distance is 4 miles and the total elevation gain is approximately 1000 feet. Then again, maybe it'll get a T4 or T4.5.

[+GeoLog81]

Drowning ranks fifth among the leading causes of unintentional injury death in the United States.

 

So yes, I would consider the ability to swim/float to be a "specialized skill"....even 30 meters. Given how ubiquitous swimming instruction is in the U.S., that's actually an alarming statistic.

 

Car accidents are in the leading 5 too, I suppose. So every cache near the road should be T5? I don't think so...

 

If the cache is on the cliff, near the path, you can still fall from it if you aren't cautious. It's still no T5...

 

Guidelines should be clearer. I've streched myself climbing a slippery rock wall to find a T3.5 cache. Yeah, all I needed were good shoes. In the same time, someone having 3m ladder or 2 friends to jump on their back could take a T5 within 2 minutes... I don't think it's just. Need for special equipment should be a special attribute to filter off (ladder - off, rope - off) and the T should be the time and danger of getting to the cache using that equip.

Edited May 13, 2014 by paprotek

[+niraD]

A flat hike of a mile, maybe T3 or T4.

That sounds like it might be a T2 rating to me: "Terrain is generally along marked trails, there are no steep elevation changes or heavy overgrowth. Less than a 2 mile hike required."

 

A 2 mile hike up 1000 feet, T5. That may not sound like a T5 for an avid hiker, but to the average geocacher, that's going to create some huffing and puffing.

And that sounds like it might be T3 rating to me: "The average adult or older child should be OK depending on physical condition. Terrain is likely off-trail. May have one or more of the following: some overgrowth, some steep elevation changes, or more than a 2 mile hike."

 

I plan to place a cache two miles in with a 700 ft. vertical climb over the course of 1.2 miles. That may get a T5 rating since the round-trip distance is 4 miles and the total elevation gain is approximately 1000 feet. Then again, maybe it'll get a T4 or T4.5.

Again, that sounds like it might be a T3 rating to me. See the quoted description of T3 above.

 

It sounds like a real stretch to call that T4: "Terrain is probably off-trail. Will have one or more of the following: very heavy overgrowth, very steep elevation (requiring use of hands), or more than a 10 mile hike. May require an overnight stay."

[+GeoLog81]

 

It sounds like a real stretch to call that T4: "Terrain is probably off-trail. Will have one or more of the following: very heavy overgrowth, very steep elevation (requiring use of hands), or more than a 10 mile hike. May require an overnight stay."

 

Does it mean that every cache in the mountains, more than 10km from a railway station, should be at least T4? 10km in stright line in mountains usually means at least half a day hike, so if it's more, for most people it would require an overnight stay...

[+niraD]

It sounds like a real stretch to call that T4: "Terrain is probably off-trail. Will have one or more of the following: very heavy overgrowth, very steep elevation (requiring use of hands), or more than a 10 mile hike. May require an overnight stay."

Does it mean that every cache in the mountains, more than 10km from a railway station, should be at least T4? 10km in stright line in mountains usually means at least half a day hike, so if it's more, for most people it would require an overnight stay...

If the distance from the trailhead requires an overnight stay, then I'd say yes, it matches the description of a T4 rating. It doesn't matter whether people get to the trailhead by trains, planes, or automobiles.

[+Mineral2]

A flat hike of a mile, maybe T3 or T4.

That sounds like it might be a T2 rating to me: "Terrain is generally along marked trails, there are no steep elevation changes or heavy overgrowth. Less than a 2 mile hike required."

 

A 2 mile hike up 1000 feet, T5. That may not sound like a T5 for an avid hiker, but to the average geocacher, that's going to create some huffing and puffing.

And that sounds like it might be T3 rating to me: "The average adult or older child should be OK depending on physical condition. Terrain is likely off-trail. May have one or more of the following: some overgrowth, some steep elevation changes, or more than a 2 mile hike."

 

I plan to place a cache two miles in with a 700 ft. vertical climb over the course of 1.2 miles. That may get a T5 rating since the round-trip distance is 4 miles and the total elevation gain is approximately 1000 feet. Then again, maybe it'll get a T4 or T4.5.

Again, that sounds like it might be a T3 rating to me. See the quoted description of T3 above.

 

It sounds like a real stretch to call that T4: "Terrain is probably off-trail. Will have one or more of the following: very heavy overgrowth, very steep elevation (requiring use of hands), or more than a 10 mile hike. May require an overnight stay."

 

Yeah, perhaps you're right. Maybe 3.5. It's not a hard hike.

[+TheHarleyRebel]

Here is an example: http://coord.info/GC4RV8B, it is a very easy puzzle but very hard terrain.

[team tisri]

I don't know I'd call swimming 30 metres as "specialized knowledge or skill" deserving of a D5 rating given how many 8-year-old children can do it.

 

The CDC states:

 

Drowning ranks fifth among the leading causes of unintentional injury death in the United States.

 

So yes, I would consider the ability to swim/float to be a "specialized skill"....even 30 meters. Given how ubiquitous swimming instruction is in the U.S., that's actually an alarming statistic.

 

That's all well and good, but if we're going to go there perhaps we should rank a film pot behind a sign near a candy store as a D5 because those with massive peanut allergies have to walk past the candy store without buying a tasty nut-based snack.

 

The fact that drowning is a major cause of injury and death doesn't mean swimming is a specialized skill. I'm sure car crashes are another leading cause of injury and death but we don't rate caches D5 because of the inherent skill required in driving to the cache.

[+Markwell]

I always imagined the best "over-the-top" example of a D1/T5 as a 15 mile hike in the desert that leads to a 55 gallon drum painted fluorescent, day-glo green, with a blinking light saying "this is a Geocache".

 

I always imagined the best "over-the-top" example of a D5/T1 as a cache that requires you to create stable cold fusion, but once you have the coordinates from that solution, it's in a parking lot.

[+Walts Hunting]

I also like hard to get to and easy to find. There was one here that was about five miles on foot one way and then off onto deer trails to get close then markers on the ground pointing to a rocket launcher size ammo can.

[+Touchstone]

That's all well and good, but if we're going to go there perhaps we should rank a film pot behind a sign near a candy store as a D5 because those with massive peanut allergies have to walk past the candy store without buying a tasty nut-based snack.

 

The fact that drowning is a major cause of injury and death doesn't mean swimming is a specialized skill. I'm sure car crashes are another leading cause of injury and death but we don't rate caches D5 because of the inherent skill required in driving to the cache.

 

In a sense, I've seen Listings Archived over concerns with bees/wasps and such, so in a way, basing a rating on allergies makes perfect sense to me.

 

I was going to point out that there aren't many caches that require driving to log a find, but I had to backpedal on that one, when I remembered our nearby OHV Park, where no pedestrians are allowed (well...unless your jeep breaks down and you have to walk back to park HQ to call for a ride home). And yep, many of the Listings in the park are rated 4 or 5 based on the restriction

[+Mineral2]

That's all well and good, but if we're going to go there perhaps we should rank a film pot behind a sign near a candy store as a D5 because those with massive peanut allergies have to walk past the candy store without buying a tasty nut-based snack.

 

The fact that drowning is a major cause of injury and death doesn't mean swimming is a specialized skill. I'm sure car crashes are another leading cause of injury and death but we don't rate caches D5 because of the inherent skill required in driving to the cache.

 

In a sense, I've seen Listings Archived over concerns with bees/wasps and such, so in a way, basing a rating on allergies makes perfect sense to me.

 

I was going to point out that there aren't many caches that require driving to log a find, but I had to backpedal on that one, when I remembered our nearby OHV Park, where no pedestrians are allowed (well...unless your jeep breaks down and you have to walk back to park HQ to call for a ride home). And yep, many of the Listings in the park are rated 4 or 5 based on the restriction

 

What about caches hidden along interstate rest stops? Legally, you have to drive to those.

[+thebruce0]

I generally try to KISS... D / T ~ Brain / Braun.

 

If braun requires special equipment - that is, I can't physically get to the cache without a tool, then I'd consider that a 5. And yeah, that makes the 4.5 to 5.0 different a unique relation.

If brain requires a special tool - that is, a field puzzle (such as water, or magnet) I'd favour attribute over rating; or if a puzzle requires very specialized knowledge (mental tool) I'd favour a 5 rating.

 

DT ratings are very hazy and really entirely up to the judgement of the CO. Heck you can really get a feel for individual users' feelings about certain rating values, and if you're searching for their cache, you might mentally adjust their rating method to your own (owner X rates a 3T what I might rate a 4.5; so finding their cache, if it's a 3T, I'd better be prepared for what I'd consider a 4.5).

It just gets messy if we try to hone everyone's rating system to the same definitions...

 

A general guide is nice, but that's about it, imo.

[+popokiiti]

D1T5 - we did one, the terrain rating was such as you needed special equipment to reach the cache site. In this case it was a boat, the Bamfield BC water taxi.

[+The Jester]

That's all well and good, but if we're going to go there perhaps we should rank a film pot behind a sign near a candy store as a D5 because those with massive peanut allergies have to walk past the candy store without buying a tasty nut-based snack.

 

The fact that drowning is a major cause of injury and death doesn't mean swimming is a specialized skill. I'm sure car crashes are another leading cause of injury and death but we don't rate caches D5 because of the inherent skill required in driving to the cache.

 

In a sense, I've seen Listings Archived over concerns with bees/wasps and such, so in a way, basing a rating on allergies makes perfect sense to me.

 

I was going to point out that there aren't many caches that require driving to log a find, but I had to backpedal on that one, when I remembered our nearby OHV Park, where no pedestrians are allowed (well...unless your jeep breaks down and you have to walk back to park HQ to call for a ride home). And yep, many of the Listings in the park are rated 4 or 5 based on the restriction

 

What about caches hidden along interstate rest stops? Legally, you have to drive to those.

Hitchhike - and leave the driving to others...

[+geodarts]

D1T5 are in keeping with my philosophy that the harder it is to reach a cache, the easier the hide should be. Of course not everyone agrees with that. I have done more 5/5 than 1/5 caches.

[+briansnat]

I generally try to KISS... D / T ~ Brain / Braun.

 

If braun requires special equipment - that is, I can't physically get to the cache without a tool, then I'd consider that a 5. And yeah, that makes the 4.5 to 5.0 different a unique relation.

If brain requires a special tool - that is, a field puzzle (such as water, or magnet) I'd favour attribute over rating; or if a puzzle requires very specialized knowledge (mental tool) I'd favour a 5 rating.

 

 

That is an excellent generalization, I may steal it when this comes up in the future.

 

Truth be told rating something as T5 because the easiest way to get at it is with a ladder seems like a bit of a stretch. In theory the kind of cache where you have to pour water into a tube to float the film pot to the top could class as a T5 because a bottle of water is the "special equipment" you need to get at the cache.

 

The issue of what counts as "special equipment" seems like it's very vague and has the potential to generate lots of heat and very little light. If you place a Chirp™ cache do you need "special equipment" in that whatever you use has to be able to locate the beacon? If you place a cache using Bluetooth does that count? What if you need a Philips screwdriver to open the cache once you find it? On the other hand, if you've got a cache that involves a difficult climb but the climb can be bypassed by using a ladder, does that raise or lower the terrain rating?

 

Likewise the concept of "specialized knowledge or skill" seems very vague. If you've got a puzzle that is impossible to solve unless you can figure out that the text is written in ancient Sanskrit and then reversed maybe it's deserving of a D5 rating. If you have to swim to get to the cache that seems like more of a stretch - something being "specialized" suggests that if you picked someone at random off the street the chances are they wouldn't have the skill or knowledge in question. The ability to swim a short distance probably doesn't fall into this category.

 

There are indeed some grey areas as to what "specialized" means. I've seen caches that require a screwdriver to open labeled as 5 star for terrain. To me that's not a grey area, it's plain wrong. First the screwdriver would involve difficulty, not terrain and second I don't see everyday items as "specialized tools". To me a specialized tool or equipment would be something that the average geocacher is not likely to have either with them, or ready access to and it is something that takes a specialized skill to use. If they have to leave and come back another time with a tool, it ups the difficulty but it still doesn't necessarily make it a 5. This definition excludes things such as screwdrivers, cell phone, hammers, wrenches, flashlights, bottles of water, magnets, hooks, pens and even ladders (how many here don't know how to use a ladder?).

 

Climbing or rappelling gear and SCUBA gear are definitely specialized equipment which require specialized skills. There is some debate about boats but I don't think the "average" geocacher has one and if you've ever sees someone in a rowboat, kayak or canoe for the first time it's obvious that there is a specialized skill involved. Even motorboats require training, a test and an operators license in most (or maybe all by now) states. What about cars then? (anticipating the objection). Go to your next event and ask everyone with a drivers license to raise their hand, then ask everyone with a boat operators license to raise their hand. That is the difference.

 

I agree with those who said that specialized tools should be an attribute and not automatically make it 5 star terrain, but unfortunately the D/T ratings were developed way before the attributes were added, so it was the only way at the time. It's a little late to change things now. With 2+ million caches out there using the current definitions changing at this point will only confuse things further.

Edited May 17, 2014 by briansnat

[+colleda]

Not sure about the ladders. Have you noticed how many instruction and safety stickers are plastered all over them?

[+secondgunman]

Setting aside the whole special equipment or training argument, I always look at D/T like this. Difficulty is how hard it is to find the cache once you're at the coordinates. Terrain is how hard it is to get to the coordinates.

 

My obvious example of a D1/T5 cache would be a large ammo can inside a tree stump....on top of a mountain that you have to bushwhack a mile with 2200 feet of elevation gain to reach the summit....on land that's known for having wild hogs and rattlesnakes six feet long and as big around as your thigh.

 

There's a cache near here just like that, though it's rated at 4/5. It's a bear to get to, but easy to find once you're there. I think that one is incorrectly rated, but that's just me.

 

The whole special equipment thing makes sense, but needs a little common sense. A cache that absolutely requires equipment or training that no reasonably normal person has needs a little boost in terrain rating. A cache on an island near shore in a place cold enough that the water freezes for several months a year, making the cache accessible on foot, shouldn't be an automatic T5. A cache 100 feet off the ground on a 300 foot cliff, requiring either a 100 foot climb or a 300 foot rappel should be an automatic T5 since either approach requires specialized gear and training that anyone can get but that not many have. A little common sense goes a long way.

[team tisri]

Not sure about the ladders. Have you noticed how many instruction and safety stickers are plastered all over them?

 

Most things seem to have endless safety warnings all over them these days, even if they aren't relevant. I still remember the warning on my Starbucks (other coffee providers are available) cup warning me that the drink I was about to enjoy was very hot. Which was curious, given it was an iced latte.