Events with Difficulty >1

[+Fugads]

In another recent thread, D/T for overnight canoe event, there was a comment made about rating event caches which got me thinking.

Unless the group is invisible or hiding from potential attendees, I would say 1/5.

This interpretation seems to imply that just showing up at the posted coordinates along with other geocachers merits a D1. That is remarkably close to the definition for an event (guideline) where it is stated: The Event Cache page specifies a time for the event and provides coordinates to its location. If you ascribe to the above interpretation, then it might seem that any event would necessarily be D1 (and most of the responses in the aforementioned thread agreed with this, though I find myself differing). A simple PQ in my area (and one other area) indicated that people give different Difficulty ratings to Events. Aside from the fact that some Events get high D/T ratings for grins (or to pad someone's stats), are there legitimate uses of higher Difficulty ratings for Events?

 

With a little creativity, I can come up with all sorts of interesting event ideas that might be given a Difficulty rating higher than 1. I'm not sure if any of these ideas would get published, but am curious to hear from the community as to what would be a legitimate Event Cache with a high Difficulty rating. Examples would be great.

 

Another question I have is whether an Event can be located at a location other than the posted coordinates (posted coords may still be used, just not for the actual event location). The bolded guideline above seems to imply that this is not allowed. But if reviewers allow it I can see it opening up all sorts of possibilities for Events with high Difficulty ratings. If not, well, it makes me even more curious about what could be a High Difficulty Event.

 

PS Terrain ratings seem much more straightforward. This topic really doesn't pertain to them except in the case where they may be interrelated to the Difficulty rating. That might be a separate topic though.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Fugads

[cachman9]

Maybe its a area where geocachers are from different cultures and speak different languages in that particular area. That could be in a city. It would definitely be difficult if you couldn't understand some people.

[+niraD]

In the other thread, one example of a high-difficulty event was suggested: an event hosted at a location where you have to figure out how to get in. The real-world Illusions restaurant (formerly in Carmel, Indiana) had a public foyer with a hidden entrance to the restaurant itself. An event at a location like that might deserve a difficulty rating above 1.

 

Another example of this might be an event held in a multi-floor building, with multiple restaurants at the posted coordinates (each on a different floor). If the name of the restaurant is not included in the listing, then potential attendees would have to figure out where the event is actually located once they arrived at the posted coordinates. And I've seen some restaurants where it wasn't obvious where the event was held, even once I was in the correct restaurant. There were no signs, and many of the employees had no clue. That might warrant a difficulty rating above 1, but I think a better approach would be to tell everyone where the event is so they don't have to search for it.

 

CITO events might have a higher difficulty rating depending on the nature of the CITO project. The assumption would be that you would stay and help clean up litter, build the trail, remove invasive plants, propagate native plants, etc.

[+Isonzo Karst]

I hosted a Wherigo 101 event with a Difficulty of 2.5. This was back when the only builder was the Groundspeak builder. Learning to write a cart is not an easy undertaking.

 

I've hosted a CITO with a difficulty of 4. I figured that was on the high side, but I wanted to people to understand that this really was digging and planting in the heat and sun. Low turn out, and the work was hotter and heavier than I'd anticipated.

[+CanadianRockies]

There was an event in our area that was an introductory workshop on how to solve puzzle caches. I could see there being a basic puzzle (with liberal hints) that attendees would have to solve to determine the coordinates of that event. That could bump the Difficulty Rating up to 1.5 or so.

 

I suppose a workshop on advanced puzzle solving could have a harder puzzle and a higher Difficulty Rating.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

In another recent thread, D/T for overnight canoe event, there was a comment made about rating event caches which got me thinking.

Unless the group is invisible or hiding from potential attendees, I would say 1/5.

This interpretation seems to imply that just showing up at the posted coordinates along with other geocachers merits a D1. That is remarkably close to the definition for an event (guideline) where it is stated: The Event Cache page specifies a time for the event and provides coordinates to its location. If you ascribe to the above interpretation, then it might seem that any event would necessarily be D1 (and most of the responses in the aforementioned thread agreed with this, though I find myself differing).

 

Lat/Long coordinates are two dimensional. We live in a world that has 3 dimensions. I recently found a cache that was in a tunnel (which was used by pedestrians, bicycles, and motor vehicles). The coordinates, when looking on a map, appeared to be in the middle of a river, but GZ was actually 60 feet or so below the river. Presumably, an event could be held in a tunnel or cave, or even a large shopping mall even with accurate coordinates it might require some effort beyond a D1 to find the actual location of the even.

 

 

[cachman9]

Or bad directions.

[+dprovan]

I suppose you might give an event a higher difficulty rating if you're expecting lots of annoying people to attend.

[+Viajero Perdido]

I host a recurring event at a restaurant that offers food and (hic!) beverage.

 

Difficulty 1.5 --> because you have to work out the bill at the end.

Terrain 2.5 --> because I've found the sidewalks a bit steep going home sometimes.

[+Fugads]

There was an event in our area that was an introductory workshop on how to solve puzzle caches. I could see there being a basic puzzle (with liberal hints) that attendees would have to solve to determine the coordinates of that event. That could bump the Difficulty Rating up to 1.5 or so.

 

I suppose a workshop on advanced puzzle solving could have a harder puzzle and a higher Difficulty Rating.

 

That was one thought I had in mind. Does anyone know if this has or is currently being allowed? Partially related to this would be a "multi" style event where there is an item/cache at the posted coordinates that tells people where the event is. Again, you could make this as simple or complex as you like, and it could relate to the Difficulty for reaching the Event. There are some logistical aspects to this (how to coordinate a time everyone meets) but I think it could be pretty fun. It might tick off some, since you could DNF the event (can you DNF an event?). Same applies to the puzzle event.

 

Lat/Long coordinates are two dimensional. We live in a world that has 3 dimensions. I recently found a cache that was in a tunnel (which was used by pedestrians, bicycles, and motor vehicles). The coordinates, when looking on a map, appeared to be in the middle of a river, but GZ was actually 60 feet or so below the river. Presumably, an event could be held in a tunnel or cave, or even a large shopping mall even with accurate coordinates it might require some effort beyond a D1 to find the actual location of the even.

This and niraD's suggestion are interesting as well. Both ideas are in the same vein, where the event location is not exactly where it seems, even though coordinates are more or less correct. When I used to live in Montreal, there was a great network of underground pedestrian tunnels and shopping complexes, and I can see using something like. Around where I live now, there are some caves you could use. One pitfall with something like this is that cacher's might show up at the coordinates but in the wrong elevation (fake lobby, wrong floor of building, above ground instead of below etc..), but I'm sure there are ways around that. Again, anyone know if this is allowed/practiced?

[+T.D.M.22]

I know someone who had hosted an event on a mountain top. Well it was at a Brass Cap- or Benchmark for you American cachers. Of course it had a high terrain rating but since they also had to find the cap- which they never did- it also would be high difficulty. The organizer also allowed people to attend at the trail head if the didnt want to make the climb.

 

It certainly is possible to host one, but will many people show up to a 5/5 event?

[+Fugads]

It certainly is possible to host one, but will many people show up to a 5/5 event?

You can say the same thing about any 5/5 cache, Event or otherwise. Sure the higher the rating, the less the mass appeal, but that's really besides the point. Depending on your area, there may be loads of interest, or very little interest in any specific rating.

 

But on subject, is an Event that involves climbing a mountain a D5 event (to look for brasscap or otherwise, although you don't actually mention what the Brass-cap event was rated)? If so, how is it distinguished from the overnight canoeing event as discussed in the thread below?

 

In another recent thread, D/T for overnight canoe event, there was a comment made about rating event caches which got me thinking.

Unless the group is invisible or hiding from potential attendees, I would say 1/5.

Or is the assessment above missing something?

Edited December 14, 2013 by Fugads

[+briansnat]

I went to an event that had a four star difficulty ratiung. It was a mid winter campout in the Adirondacks. I guess the idea was that sleeping in the woods in the Adirondack mountains in February was a difficult thing to do.

[+niraD]

There was an event in our area that was an introductory workshop on how to solve puzzle caches. I could see there being a basic puzzle (with liberal hints) that attendees would have to solve to determine the coordinates of that event. That could bump the Difficulty Rating up to 1.5 or so.

 

I suppose a workshop on advanced puzzle solving could have a harder puzzle and a higher Difficulty Rating.

That was one thought I had in mind. Does anyone know if this has or is currently being allowed?

A couple years ago, we tried to have a "puzzle event" to draw Venona's ACTIVITIES for that year to a conclusion. That would have been perfectly fitting, given the brain-burner puzzles incorporated into each year's ACTIVITIES.

 

The reviewer would not allow the location of the event to be specified as a puzzle solution. The owner of the listing had to include the actual location of the event as the posted coordinates. So... we ended up with an event at the posted coordinates, and a separate puzzle cache that used the event's coordinates as its bogus posted coordinates.

 

But you know the drill about there being no precedent for placing geocaches.

[+T.D.M.22]

It certainly is possible to host one, but will many people show up to a 5/5 event?

You can say the same thing about any 5/5 cache, Event or otherwise. Sure the higher the rating, the less the mass appeal, but that's really besides the point. Depending on your area, there may be loads of interest, or very little interest in any specific rating.

 

But on subject, is an Event that involves climbing a mountain a D5 event (to look for brasscap or otherwise, although you don't actually mention what the Brass-cap event was rated)? If so, how is it distinguished from the overnight canoeing event as discussed in the thread below?

 

 

I looked up the (archived) event page to be sure. I was kinda wrong. It was a camping event in the mountains, that included hiking, scrambling and other related activities. The end goal was to get said Brass Cap(Virtual cache, Co-ords where from Government database)

 

Said event was rated as a 4D/3.5T So, not only do we have an event with a D greater than 1, but it also had a D greater than the T. GC2YMKV

 

I do believe it was rated higher, because it was an event not for everyone. You have to be able to walk, climb, scramble for a long distance. Note on the cache page, a helmet is advised. Sure, neither is a canoe trip, but it is quite easy for a group of inexperienced people to do such an activity with little previous instruction, and a couple teachers. Even possible to do it alone with little experience. At the easiest, just go with the current and keep between the banks. The same cannot be said for climbing to such a remote location. IMO most inexperienced people would not make it half way to such a location by themselves.

Edited December 14, 2013 by T.D.M.22

[+loverfishy]

I did not participate in this event, but know some people who did:

http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC4D9Z1_mt-elbert-flash-mob

A 5/5 flash mob event that involved getting to the summit of Mt. Elbert, a 14er in Colorado, AND learning choreography.

 

Given the 10-mile roundtrip hike to the top of the 2nd highest peak in the continental US in a certain timeframe AND having to learn dance moves, I think that definitely merits a higher difficulty than 1!

[+CanadianRockies]

I did not participate in this event, but know some people who did:

http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC4D9Z1_mt-elbert-flash-mob

A 5/5 flash mob event that involved getting to the summit of Mt. Elbert, a 14er in Colorado, AND learning choreography.

 

Given the 10-mile roundtrip hike to the top of the 2nd highest peak in the continental US in a certain timeframe AND having to learn dance moves, I think that definitely merits a higher difficulty than 1!

A cute idea, but...

 

If you weren't allowed to log an "attended" if you didn't master the dance moves, then I'd suggest this was an event with Additional Logging Requirements. If you were allowed to log an "attended" regardless of how well you danced (assuming you danced at all), then it would be hard to justify it as being a D5.

 

I suspect many events, like many caches, have inflated ratings. Sometimes because it is clever to do so. Other times because some people just don't understand the ratings concept very well.

[+Fugads]

Other times because some people just don't understand the ratings concept very well.

 

A better understanding is the goal here. The one example you previously gave for an Event >D1 was a puzzle solving event where you have to solve a puzzle to determine the location. I am still curious if any Reviewers have been allowing this. The response from niraD indicates that it is at least in their area, this concept was not permitted. Excluding all the possible concepts where the Event is not at the posted coordinates, I've heard two basic suggestions as events that have D>1.

1. Activity related, like CITO or mountain climb. Basically the event includes participation in some activity that it includes some difficulty. However, as folks have already pointed out, participation cannot be enforced, folks can say they attended without putting in the effort (and I suspect people that point this out also believe these Events should be listed as D=1). However, listing the D>1 may weed out some attendees who are less likely to participate, as much as anyone pays attention to the ratings anyways. The event description is far more likely IMO to be the deciding factor on whether people attend, not the D-rating.
   
2. 3-dimensional or location vagaries. The event location, while at the posted coordinates, is not obvious (intentionally) due to secret entrances, or multiple possible locations in the 3rd dimension (elevation).
   

Or perhaps there really isn't a consensus or "better understanding" of the difficulty ratings as applied to events, and you simply need to attend some events in your area, and see what is the local norm. If people in your area feel a hiking event merits a higher D rating, than by all means conform. This last idea seems like a cop-out.

[+hzoi]

Maybe its a area where geocachers are from different cultures and speak different languages in that particular area. That could be in a city. It would definitely be difficult if you couldn't understand some people.

My first few events in Germany were about a D5. They came down to about a D2.5 before we moved back to the US.

[+JL_HSTRE]

Difficulty depends on what does the event entails. A flash mob, a meet-n-greet, group breakfast, lecture: all those things are pretty simple. Even a large event at a park with lots of things that could be done you can always just hang out at the pavilion - or even just show up, sign the log, and leave.

 

If the purpose of the event is some kind of competitive games event (ammo can toss, geocaching olympics, etc) then I could certainly understand rating the event a little higher. I suppose you might just show up and watch without participating, but I would rate it a little higher to give credit to the participants.

 

I held a kayak event at the beginning of this year that I rated a 3/5. T5 is obviously for the boat, but it was a one-way run which meant shuttling cars across town and I think most of the participants were unfamiliar with the area. Furthermore, it was not a simple paddle: 9 miles long, very windy, several portages, etc. If I rated the event 1/5 some folks would probably mistakenly think it was an easy, leisurely trip.

 

I usually rate my CITOs at least D2. Participants are expected to spend several hours picking up trash or pulling invasive plants, usually in the hot sun. That deserves a higher Difficulty rating than a meet-n-greet!

 

Another possibility might be some kind of special cache hunt, like a special night cache. The cache is never published and is only available for the duration of the event, but based on the difficulty completing it or the special tools required (ex: Chirp, UV flashlight, difficulty in finding the next reflector) it might be higher.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Joshism

[+DanOCan]

I looked up the (archived) event page to be sure. I was kinda wrong. It was a camping event in the mountains, that included hiking, scrambling and other related activities. The end goal was to get said Brass Cap(Virtual cache, Co-ords where from Government database)

 

Said event was rated as a 4D/3.5T So, not only do we have an event with a D greater than 1, but it also had a D greater than the T. GC2YMKV

 

I do believe it was rated higher, because it was an event not for everyone. You have to be able to walk, climb, scramble for a long distance. Note on the cache page, a helmet is advised.

 

I attended that event and I think it was rated too high for a couple of reasons:

 

1) There was a logbook available at the "base camp" where people not able to make the hike could sign in and get credit for attending. The climb itself doesn't involve special equipment and the call for helmets was overboard. Yes, I know the caches at the top all have a T5 rating, but I think they should be more around a T4. If you could only log an Attended by climbing the mountain then a higher rating would be in order, but given the ability to log at the ground? Really it was a T1.

 

2) There was no requirement to find the cap to attend the event so the Difficulty was also a 1. Believe me, finding the group (either in the parking lot below or on the summit) was not difficult at all.

[+Harry Dolphin]

I did fine the 5/1 rating for the 11-11-11 (at 11-11-11 AM)event cache to be a bit bizarre. "It's a work day, which makes it harder."