cachea

[+Off Grid]

What's your opinion on caches in business or around a business to what seems to me to promote them isnt that bad?

[+wmpastor]

It's not okay if it's clearly "promoting the business," but some businesses allow caches on or near their property. Just having the cache located where you can see the business is okay.

[+NeverSummer]

My opinion is that one should follow the guidelines, and work with their Reviewer to sort out details related to guideline adherence if one wants to place a cache in/on/around a business and use the name in the cache name or description. Aaaand...be prepared to have that cache idea rejected--while accepting that you can just move on and place a cache elsewhere.

[+Walts Hunting]

Opinions are irrelevant. The guidelines prevent "Commercial Caches" so you can't mention the business or what it does. Placing it in front of it and saying something like my favorite coffee spot is nearby stop by seems to be ok since I have seen many of those.

 

You might want to keep in mind that all "Agenda" caches are prevented also. No supporting of causes or groups etc.

[+Off Grid]

Just was wondering cause I've seen a few in coffee shops and that always makes me feel obligated to buy something.

[+The_Incredibles_]

Are you not wanting the free massage you won yesterday?

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=b3756e31-5997-4e7f-8784-e6beb6a11727

Edited May 5, 2013 by The_Incredibles_

[+Off Grid]

Haha it was that cache and a few others that made me ask

[+Walts Hunting]

I guess the Reviewers are a little different up there. I have only seen two inside a business. One in Yuma and the other in Victoria (surprise, surprise)

[+The_Incredibles_]

Don't know about coffeeshops, but I do know of 2 here that are inside businesses. I went to one and although the people were very nice, I did feel a bit guilty that I didn't buy anything. I think caches like this are now against the guidelines.

 

I don't like the idea of placing a cache near a business in order to promote it. Maybe I'm naive, but I'm thinking most cachers that place such a cache do it for fun, not for making money. If you're bored at work, it would be entertaining to watch people hunting for your cache.

Edited May 5, 2013 by The_Incredibles_

[+cheech gang]

Here is the current official wording:

 

Cache listings perceived as commercial will not be published. A commercial cache listing has one or more of the following characteristics:

 

1.It has overtones of advertising, marketing or promotion.

2.It suggests or requires that the finder go inside a business, interact with employees and/or purchase a product or service.

3.It contains links to businesses, agencies, commercial advertisers, charities, or political or social agendas.

4.It contains the logo of a business or organization, including non-profit organizations.

5.It contains the name of a business or commercial product.

Edited May 5, 2013 by cheech gang

[+wimseyguy]

Shouldn't the topic be "cache-eh"?

 

The linked to cache isn't inside a business, it's outside of one placed with permission.

The write up doesn't promote the business, but comes close. I don't care for the suggestion to contact the receptionist for a hint. The CO is free to put whatever they like inside the cache as long as the contents meet that guideline. This includes gift certificates and coupons. I'd say this one does meet the guidelines, but just barely.

[+Walts Hunting]

So you can't go inside eh. How about the one in Vegas at the wedding drive up window where the lady hands you the cache. I guess that isn't inside but you definitely have to interact with an employee. It appears that occassionally the reviewers overlook the guidelines when itmismreally cool.

 

Under that premise having the person at the McDonald's hand it to you ismok. Of course if you submit one and point to the Vegas one you will get the old prior decisions are not binding on the future.

[+wimseyguy]

So you can't go inside eh. How about the one in Vegas at the wedding drive up window where the lady hands you the cache. I guess that isn't inside but you definitely have to interact with an employee. It appears that occassionally the reviewers overlook the guidelines when itmismreally cool.

 

Under that premise having the person at the McDonald's hand it to you ismok. Of course if you submit one and point to the Vegas one you will get the old prior decisions are not binding on the future.

Or perhaps A Special Memory was "placed with special permission of Groundspeak, Inc. ? Because that's what it says on the cache page.

If you are going to stir the pot, don't use a spoon with holes in it.

And I think the m is stuck on your keyboardm.

Edited May 5, 2013 by wimseyguy

[+stijnhommes]

I tried to place a cache inside a business a while back because it fit the theme of the accompanying puzzle, but apparently that was too much promotion for the reviewer. I have yet to figure out what I have to do for an inside cache to be allowed (and non-commercial). If not buying something is not enough, I'm hard-pressed to find out what is.

[+palmetto]

I have yet to figure out what I have to do for an inside cache to be allowed

 

Inside a business, a cache is not going to be allowed by a reviewer - not if they understand that it's inside.

 

In Feb 2007, this was added to the commercial section, " If the finder is required to go inside the business, interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, then the cache is presumed to be commercial."

 

Those clauses should be read as connected with "or", as in: go inside the business, OR interact with employees, or purchase... Sometimes cachers think that inside is okay, if the cacher doesn't have to talk to anyone. By itself, inside is enough for a presumption of commercial intent.

 

Prior to Feb 2007, some inside caches were published by reviewers. Since then, they may have slipped by a reviewer, or cache owners may have gotten permission from Groundspeak for an inside cache (I know of some like this).

 

I just disabled one that I published recently, assuming outside with permission. Turns out to be inside with permission. It can move outside, or it can be archived.

[+JKMonkey]

I know of caches that have been put out by restaurants with the ftf getting a coupon for free grub from the place and not only was it allowed by the reviewer, but it also had about two dozen or so favorite points since everyone who found the cache got something like 40% off at the restaurant. Not sure if it fit the rules or not but I didn't really see a problem there, if a business wants to do that to bring people in, then I don't mind logging it as a smiley and saving money.

[+Off Grid]

I have yet to figure out what I have to do for an inside cache to be allowed

 

Inside a business, a cache is not going to be allowed by a reviewer - not if they understand that it's inside.

 

In Feb 2007, this was added to the commercial section, " If the finder is required to go inside the business, interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, then the cache is presumed to be commercial."

 

Those clauses should be read as connected with "or", as in: go inside the business, OR interact with employees, or purchase... Sometimes cachers think that inside is okay, if the cacher doesn't have to talk to anyone. By itself, inside is enough for a presumption of commercial intent.

 

Prior to Feb 2007, some inside caches were published by reviewers. Since then, they may have slipped by a reviewer, or cache owners may have gotten permission from Groundspeak for an inside cache (I know of some like this).

 

I just disabled one that I published recently, assuming outside with permission. Turns out to be inside with permission. It can move outside, or it can be archived.

so we have a cache here called sounds like geocaching its in the store and I always feel obligated to buy something every time I go in there it kinda sucks and I've passed by a few geocachees that noticed me coming out and asked if it was in there I said ya and they were very hesitant on going in and asked if u had to buy anything I said I don't know

[+wimseyguy]

I always feel obligated to buy something every time I go in there

 

I'm confused, why would you return to that store if you do not want to buy something there after going in once to find the cache? That cache was published in Jan 2007, the update to the guideline that Palmetto just posted went into effect in Feb 2007. It was published under the guidelines that were current at that time.

[+Off Grid]

I always feel obligated to buy something every time I go in there

 

I'm confused, why would you return to that store if you do not want to buy something there after going in once to find the cache? That cache was published in Jan 2007, the update to the guideline that Palmetto just posted went into effect in Feb 2007. It was published under the guidelines that were current at that time.

To drop of travel bugs...I've shown people where it is.... To take a travel bug or discover them leave a cool trinket seeing as tourists visit there .just happen to be in the neighborhood so you take a look ............and I do that with caches outsid of a shop travel bug drop just happen to be in the area .

 

Its a cache I should be allowed to return to it as many times as I wish and not have to be obligated to buy something

 

And rules haha

Edited May 5, 2013 by Off Grid

[+wimseyguy]

So you like returning to a place where you feel uncomfortable? Odd.

[+Walts Hunting]

So you can't go inside eh. How about the one in Vegas at the wedding drive up window where the lady hands you the cache. I guess that isn't inside but you definitely have to interact with an employee. It appears that occassionally the reviewers overlook the guidelines when itmismreally cool.

 

Under that premise having the person at the McDonald's hand it to you ismok. Of course if you submit one and point to the Vegas one you will get the old prior decisions are not binding on the future.

Or perhaps A Special Memory was "placed with special permission of Groundspeak, Inc. ? Because that's what it says on the cache page.

If you are going to stir the pot, don't use a spoon with holes in it.

And I think the m is stuck on your keyboardm.

 

Here's another where you have to go inside, ask the hostess for it and then return it to her. I guess the rules are different in Mexico.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=3d31882b-a016-4275-ae9e-ead42228dce2

 

There is one inside a bar in Yuma that you have to go into reach into the display window, sign it and return it while everyone (including the bartender who called me names and cheap for not buying anything) is looking. They don't have SPECIAL PERMISSION they just have reviewers with a liberal interpretation of the guidelines.

 

I love it when organization posts guidelines but also says we will make special exemptions as we see fit.

[Keystone]

I guess the rules are were different in Mexico 2005.

Fixed that for you.

 

But, thanks for playing!

[+The_Incredibles_]

So you like returning to a place where you feel uncomfortable? Odd.

 

[+Chief301]

This is probably (no, then again, no probably about it), the coolest cache I have found....

 

View Carre'

 

Over 2,100 finds and 792 Fave points. The only way to get to it is to walk in and ask the receptionist, and you will be escorted to the cache by building staff.

 

Granted, this is a multi-use office building, so you're not required to interact with any one particular business. And it's been in place since 2003, so perhaps the rules were a little different then. I think in special cases like this reviewers should defer to the intent of the Guidelines and not necessarily the letter.

[+wimseyguy]

Yes, View Carre is one of the coolest caches ever; I've been there three times. Once to find the cache, two more times just to bring family members along to share the view with.

 

The owner of that cache is part of the building management team, and there isn't really anything for sale there (as long as you stay out of the brokerage offices). I suspect that the CO would be granted special permission if he asked for it, even with today's guidelines. Groundspeak has demonstrated a willingness to make exceptions to the guidelines that the volunteer reviewers cannot.

[+Walts Hunting]

I guess the rules are were different in Mexico 2005.

Fixed that for you.

 

But, thanks for playing!

 

Then how about this one in Canada

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=b799c67f-3c0b-46b3-8d90-46678035b5e9 which is inside a book store.

 

or in Yuma

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=596f93fa-f71f-458d-b33c-d0036127809d which was archived only when it changed owners (and is the one I was insulted in)

 

I don't really care but the powers to be never seem to want to admit the inconsistency. I just signed them and moved on. Of course their is the possibility that they were changed after placing. Not unheard of.

[Keystone]

I guess the rules are were different in Mexico 2005.

Fixed that for you.

 

But, thanks for playing!

 

Then how about this one in Canada

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=b799c67f-3c0b-46b3-8d90-46678035b5e9 which is inside a book store.

 

or in Yuma

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=596f93fa-f71f-458d-b33c-d0036127809d which was archived only when it changed owners (and is the one I was insulted in)

 

I don't really care but the powers to be never seem to want to admit the inconsistency. I just signed them and moved on. Of course their is the possibility that they were changed after placing. Not unheard of.

Please point to the exact words on each listing that clearly state that the containers are located indoors. I can't find them.

 

I will tell you that there is nothing in the archived reviewer notes for either cache that contains information suggesting the caches are indoors.

 

Reviewers are not mind readers. Reviewers do not visit each cache location prior to publication. Reviewers do not ask 20 questions for each and every urban hide, like "is this inside a business?" to ferret out non-compliant caches.

 

Reviewers do, however, react to "Needs Archived" logs. What's the total number of "Needs Archived" logs on these two listings? Yeah, zero.

 

Thanks again for playing again, though.

[+cheech gang]

I guess the rules are were different in Mexico 2005.

Fixed that for you.

 

But, thanks for playing!

 

Then how about this one in Canada

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=b799c67f-3c0b-46b3-8d90-46678035b5e9 which is inside a book store.

 

or in Yuma

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=596f93fa-f71f-458d-b33c-d0036127809d which was archived only when it changed owners (and is the one I was insulted in)

 

I don't really care but the powers to be never seem to want to admit the inconsistency. I just signed them and moved on. Of course their is the possibility that they were changed after placing. Not unheard of.

Please point to the exact words on each listing that clearly state that the containers are located indoors. I can't find them.

 

I will tell you that there is nothing in the archived reviewer notes for either cache that contains information suggesting the caches are indoors.

 

Reviewers are not mind readers. Reviewers do not visit each cache location prior to publication. Reviewers do not ask 20 questions for each and every urban hide, like "is this inside a business?" to ferret out non-compliant caches.

 

Reviewers do, however, react to "Needs Archived" logs. What's the total number of "Needs Archived" logs on these two listings? Yeah, zero.

 

Thanks again for playing again, though.

 

If you look at the Google Streetview for the Bookstore cache you will see very well that it is fact a grandfathered Travelling Cache.

 

Edited May 6, 2013 by cheech gang

[+Sharks-N-Beans]

I guess the rules are were different in Mexico 2005.

Fixed that for you.

 

But, thanks for playing!

 

Then how about this one in Canada

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=b799c67f-3c0b-46b3-8d90-46678035b5e9 which is inside a book store.

 

or in Yuma

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=596f93fa-f71f-458d-b33c-d0036127809d which was archived only when it changed owners (and is the one I was insulted in)

 

I don't really care but the powers to be never seem to want to admit the inconsistency. I just signed them and moved on. Of course their is the possibility that they were changed after placing. Not unheard of.

Please point to the exact words on each listing that clearly state that the containers are located indoors. I can't find them.

 

I will tell you that there is nothing in the archived reviewer notes for either cache that contains information suggesting the caches are indoors.

 

Reviewers are not mind readers. Reviewers do not visit each cache location prior to publication. Reviewers do not ask 20 questions for each and every urban hide, like "is this inside a business?" to ferret out non-compliant caches.

 

Reviewers do, however, react to "Needs Archived" logs. What's the total number of "Needs Archived" logs on these two listings? Yeah, zero.

 

Thanks again for playing again, though.

 

If you look at the Google Streetview for the Bookstore cache you will see very well that it is fact a grandfathered Travelling Cache.

 

:laughing:

[+redwoodkestrel]

This cache in San Francisco is pretty cool: GC15XK4. I'm sure it's nice to have a safe place to drop trackables in downtown! I haven't made it over to find it yet but I look forward to it.

[+Off Grid]

This cache in San Francisco is pretty cool: GC15XK4. I'm sure it's nice to have a safe place to drop trackables in downtown! I haven't made it over to find it yet but I look forward to it.

I'd love to go there and get that one

[+NYPaddleCacher]

I suppose we could continue posting "how did this get published" examples, but to me, this is the most important part in the guidelines.

 

Cache listings perceived as commercial will not be published.

 

The key word there is perceived. If the cache listing and what is required to find the cache creates the perception that the purpose of the cache is to solicit business, it violates the guideline. There's a cache that I hope to find in the next couple of days that is inside a hotel. Entering the hotel and asking to see the container is required but I don't see how anyone could come away with the perception that one would be encouraged to check into the hotel and stay overnight, or choose this particular hotel brand over another. However, if OffGrid is coming away with the perception that they were expected to buy something, the cache *has* create the perception as being commercial in nature.

[Mr.Yuck]

Shouldn't the topic be "cache-eh"?

 

The linked to cache isn't inside a business, it's outside of one placed with permission.

The write up doesn't promote the business, but comes close. I don't care for the suggestion to contact the receptionist for a hint. The CO is free to put whatever they like inside the cache as long as the contents meet that guideline. This includes gift certificates and coupons. I'd say this one does meet the guidelines, but just barely.

 

I for one, can't take it any more. Can a moderator please correct the thread title so it doesn't say cachea? Please?

 

I agree with this assessment I'm quoting. They are really using this cache to promote the business with the gift certificates. Sure, they're all gone, but they probably will throw more there in the future. Not that any of this bothers me one bit, but I do agree the cache is "borderline".

[+frinklabs]

Isn't the wording of the no-commercial guideline completely contradictory to the existence of this attribute?

 

[+Team Hugs]

I tried to place a cache inside a business a while back because it fit the theme of the accompanying puzzle, but apparently that was too much promotion for the reviewer. I have yet to figure out what I have to do for an inside cache to be allowed (and non-commercial). If not buying something is not enough, I'm hard-pressed to find out what is.

 

One common example of the "inside cache" that I've seen frequently is the library cache. Typically, this is the final stage of a multi-cache; in the simplest version, the first stage is a micro which contains the call number of a fake book inside the library. Libraries are highly (though not exclusively) non-commercial in nature, so this would seem to be an example of what you're seeking. (Perhaps.)

[+Team Hugs]

Isn't the wording of the no-commercial guideline completely contradictory to the existence of this attribute?

 

 

I don't think so. I think the wording of the guideline is more about requirements that you essentially "purchase the cache"; you buy something, and the right to sign the cache comes along with the purchase.

 

I've seen this attribute in other situations that clearly weren't commercial endorsements. One cache was on the observation deck of a tall building; you had to spend $2 to get onto the observation deck, just like any other muggle. Lots of park caches in my area require that you spend money in order to enter the grounds (buy a day pass, buy a season license, etc.), but then you're free to enjoy the 99% of the park that doesn't have caches in it, too.

[+BruceS]

Isn't the wording of the no-commercial guideline completely contradictory to the existence of this attribute?

 

No because many state parks charge an access fee and are not considered commercial.

[4wheelin_fool]

There are plenty of caches which bring business to nearby establishments. What they primarily object to is commercial language and blatant advertising.

[+Sharks-N-Beans]

One of my favorites which I found early in our caching career (is career the right word?) required the finder to find a snack shack and state "The cache flies at midnight". It was awkward for a noob, but I did it.

[+frinklabs]

Hypothetically, what about a cache that is on the grounds of a business where you had to interact with the staff to get to GZ, but it didn't cost anything?

 

For example, a golf course owner likes caching, and puts a cool ammo can on an unused, safe part of his property. You have to identify yourself to the clubhouse so they know why you are there, but they don't charge you anything because they are cache-aware and know you aren't golfing.

 

Of course the cache listing wouldn't name the facility or have weblinks -- just the details to get you in, and to GZ.

[+wimseyguy]

Hypothetically you would be better off asking your reviewer if you want a real answer.

You might get some consensus here, but it won't carry any weight at the review.

[+Off Grid]

Hypothetically you would be better off asking your reviewer if you want a real answer.

You might get some consensus here, but it won't carry any weight at the review.

I'm not better off asking one but thanks anyways

[+J Grouchy]

Here is the current official wording:

 

Cache listings perceived as commercial will not be published. A commercial cache listing has one or more of the following characteristics:

 

1.It has overtones of advertising, marketing or promotion.

2.It suggests or requires that the finder go inside a business, interact with employees and/or purchase a product or service.

3.It contains links to businesses, agencies, commercial advertisers, charities, or political or social agendas.

4.It contains the logo of a business or organization, including non-profit organizations.

5.It contains the name of a business or commercial product.

 

I just found one about 45 minutes ago that 5 describes...although now it's an abandoned building...

 

Back in December I found one name AU2Z1, which is a cleverly disguised way of writing the name of a popular auto parts store...

[+redsox_mark]

I suppose we could continue posting "how did this get published" examples, but to me, this is the most important part in the guidelines.

 

Cache listings perceived as commercial will not be published.

 

The key word there is perceived. If the cache listing and what is required to find the cache creates the perception that the purpose of the cache is to solicit business, it violates the guideline. There's a cache that I hope to find in the next couple of days that is inside a hotel. Entering the hotel and asking to see the container is required but I don't see how anyone could come away with the perception that one would be encouraged to check into the hotel and stay overnight, or choose this particular hotel brand over another. However, if OffGrid is coming away with the perception that they were expected to buy something, the cache *has* create the perception as being commercial in nature.

 

Interesting example. A hotel is a business though; and from what the reviewers in this thread seem to be saying is that a cache inside a business (since 2007) is not allowed. Regardless of perception.

 

Though I expect there is some grey area and judgement. I found a cache (hidden in 2012) in an office building, and the cache description clearly describes this:

 

The cache at coordinates (removed) is located in the courtyard of the building at (address removed). It is accessible every day between 7:00am and 8:00pm (ring the bell at the porter’s lodge during the weekend). When you enter the building at (coordinates), let the porter know why you are there by using the password “geocaching”, and then go along the entrance corridor to the building’s courtyard. The responsible people and the porter have been informed about the cache. Both the building and the courtyard are under surveillance day and night.

 

The office building itself is a business, and I had to interact with employees as well. But to this day I have no idea what businesses were inside. It did not feel at all commercial to me. It was a nice cache in a nice building.

[+frinklabs]

Hypothetically you would be better off asking your reviewer if you want a real answer.

You might get some consensus here, but it won't carry any weight at the review.

I'm not better off asking one but thanks anyways

 

I think that response was directed at my post.

 

But it is off-topic. This thread is about opinions. The reviewer route will not give me that, only pre-approved officially-sanctioned boilerplate -- those are not the 'droids I am looking for.

[vagabond]

I guess the Reviewers are a little different up there. I have only seen two inside a business. One in Yuma and the other in Victoria (surprise, surprise)

 

Was the one in Yuma in a bar, if so that was my last one of the day and I enjoyed a couple of cool ones :lol:

edit to add

that was the one did it in Dec of 10 went in placed my order and signed the log

Edited May 9, 2013 by vagabond