Advice on logging FTF without actually signing the log

[+mamoreb]

Hi,

 

I could use some advice on whether or not to accept an offer to log FTF on a geocache that I did not sign...

 

The other day I and a geocaching colleague solved a D5 T3 mystery. The coordinates we calculated were confirmed by the geochecker.

 

We went out hunting for the FTF. I guess we spent an hour bicycling + hiking through snow to get to the given location. Then we spent more than an hour searching intensively. We called the CO after half an hour, he checked satellite photos etc, and gave us some advice. The hide itself was not supposed to be hard, just a PET hanging in a tree. We had searched all trees within a ~40 meter radius, we had gotten all the hints we could from the CO, it was getting late, so we decided to give up.

 

Once we had finally returned to the parking lot, the CO contacted us again. He had realized that he had used wrong coordinates when making the puzzle and geochecker. The container was 50-100 meters further away. As it was approaching midnight and we were rather wet, returning immediately was not an option.

 

The CO wrote that we are the true FTFs, and that he would be willing to add us to the physical log book, and let us submit our "found it" logs based on solving the mystery, getting a go from the geochecker, travelling to GZ and searching the (wrong) location for an hour.

 

Normally I really want to find the container and sign the log myself. What I took part in last night, did not feel like a find. The trouble is that I and my colleague will have problems finding a common time slot for going back together and signing an eventual co-FTF, since this is not exactly a drivein. We can probably find time within a week or so - but at that point, several others will have solved and found the geocache. We can probably go there separately - but then we do not get to share the glory of what was a common effort.

 

What would you do?

 

(Edited to clarify, in bold, that the CO would make sure that our nicks were in the physical log book, so that anyone arriving later would not find an empty log. Not that this changes my take on the case.)

Edited April 24, 2013 by mamoreb

[team tisri]

Why not write a note to claim first-to-solve and detail your exploits, and then claim a find whenever you get back out there? If the owner considers you FTF even though you didn't find it you could go ahead and claim it; if you prefer not to log a find until you actually find it then claim your find whenever you get back out there.

 

FTF is a game within a game. To me the game is more about getting out there, seeing some nice locations, and maybe finding some boxes. If you don't find the box but got to a cool location that's good. If you don't find the box but bend your brain around a fun puzzle, that's good too. If you find the box that's a bonus.

 

If the box is in the kind of location you'd never go back to again and wouldn't have gone to once had it not been for the box, perhaps a note to suggest the CO reconsider the hiding spot would be in order.

[+Crow-T-Robot]

It's pretty simple: did you find the cache? Looking for an hour with the wrong coordinates means you gave it a heck of an effort...it doesn't mean you found the cache. Finding out the CO goofed on the coordinates or hasn't placed the cache yet is part of the risk of trying for a FTF. It's all part of the adventure.

 

Go back out and find the cache and hope you are still FTF. My guess is that will sit much better with you than claiming a find (and a FTF, no less) on a cache you didn't find.

 

 

[+mamoreb]

Thanks for the answers.

 

Crow-T-Robot, that's pretty much my take on it. The problem here, which you don't seem to mention, is that we were two people going for this together. Myself I can probably get out there tomorrow morning, probably finding the container and getting the FTF. But that would mean ditching my partner in solving and searching, since he is not available tomorrow morning (same as I am not available the coming evenings).

[+Team Microdot]

To me it's simple - first to find the cache and sign the log under their own steam = FTF, but I wouldn't claim FTF on a cache anyway if I'd had the CO providing extra information to steer me to it - I like a level playing field

 

Under the circumstances it would seem the CO is slightly embarrassed about their goof (we've all done it) and thinks the fair and equitable thing to do is to recognise that if the cache had been in the right place, you would in all probability have been FTF - although there's no guarantee (although having the CO tell you where to look would have improved the odds).

 

It's nice when the solve was a team effort to bag joint FTF but the question you and your friend need to ask yourselves is whether you're both prepared to wait until you are both available to go back out at the same time, and risk losing the FTF altogether, or whether it's important enough that on this occasion you would both be ok with one of you claiming it as an individual rather than have someone else get there first.

[+Isonzo Karst]

I once heard a reason for the specialness and attraction of the FTF game as, "the pioneers take the arrows". Cachers into FTF are the ones who are going to discover the weakness of the hide/coords/puzzle design/permission issue/bad hints/description etc.

 

That's what happened to you, pioneer >>> arrow.

 

The cache owner is trying to assuage his guilt for bad puzzle design by offering you a find on a cache you didn't find. No amount of rationalization alters that Did Not Find does not equal Found it! It's not an issue of effort or blame. It's just the fact.

 

I wouldn't do it myself, or spend any time whatsoever considering it.

 

Write a note, describe your adventures. Someday perhaps, return and sign the log.

Don't worry about FTF, it didn't happen for you.

Edited April 24, 2013 by Isonzo Karst

[+cerberus1]

I never heard of the "arrow" part of it, but agree with Isonzo Karst that the problems often associated with FTF is sometimes things are off and you takes your punches when going for it.

The CO, feeling guilty, is throwing you a bone.

Usually for us, by the time we get home after an email to the CO, coords have been fixed and a dozen people were already there.

Write a DNF of your adventure. That kinda forces the CO to be honest, saying he made a mistake. It also shows others that if all was in order, you two would have been FTF.

Figure you might lose out on FTF this time, if it's still important to do the hide together.

[+DanOCan]

If it were me, I would log my DNF and then wait for my partner to be available and then go back and find the cache together. I'm more interested in my caching friends and the shared experience than FTFs.

[+Sharks-N-Beans]

Bottom line...If you claim FTF, someone will take a pic of the log with their name on top and your names nowhere on the log and everyone will have a good chuckle. They will log TFTL (laugh).

[+cerberus1]

If it were me, I would log my DNF and then wait for my partner to be available and then go back and find the cache together. I'm more interested in my caching friends and the shared experience than FTFs.

This ^

[AZcachemeister]

Myself I can probably get out there tomorrow morning, probably finding the container and getting the FTF. But that would mean ditching my partner in solving and searching, since he is not available tomorrow morning (same as I am not available the coming evenings).

 

Many folks will claim this doesn't matter, 'since there can only be one true FTF'.

 

Go out and find it, write CO-FTF with xxx on the log and tell your friend to log it when they get a chance.

In most cases of a 'team find', whoever grabs the container just writes in both/everyone's name, or if a larger group they use a special signature for the day.

 

It's the same as posting a log on the cache the way it is now, except that there will be actual ink on the logsheet.

[+Team Microdot]

In most cases of a 'team find', whoever grabs the container just writes in both/everyone's name, or if a larger group they use a special signature for the day.

 

And in most cases, all group members are at least in the proximity of GZ when the cache is found and the logbook signed.

 

Wouldn't the alternative be classed as armchair logging and isn't that frowned upon?

 

Let's take it to the extreme - I know most of the FTF sharks / hounds in my area - we could form a collective and so long as one of us manages to get to GZ and be first to find the cache that person could log us all in and we could freeze out the competition

 

Eventually everyone else would give up and our FTF's would be guaranteed - at which point the actual challenge of being FTF would be completely removed and that whole sub-game would become completely pointless

[+mamoreb]

Well, it was actually the cache owner that offered to add our names to the log, as he's going to be nearby the cache very soon. So the names would be in the log.

 

However, it is comforting to see that most of you think along the same lines as I do - what we did the other day was not enough to log the cache, despite the offers from the CO. I'll discuss with my co-cacher and see what we can agree on.

[+briansnat]

I'd log my FTDNF

[+J Grouchy]

FTF = First to find.

 

"Find" being the operative word.

 

Did you find it?

 

No?

 

Then no...do not claim the FTF.

[+mamoreb]

Haha, we were joking a lot about logging FTDNF when we were heading back from there!

[+mamoreb]

J Grouchy: It is possible to say that we FOUND the solution to the mystery (the hardest part, with many hours and D5), we FOUND GZ (rather hard, with one hour hiking and T3), we were just hindered from FINDING the log (supposed to be very easy part, to be done in a few minutes) due to a CO error.

 

However, I think most of us seem to agree that it is better not to log a find. I'll see if my partner agrees.

[+badger10]

I had a similar thing happen. My kids and I were going for ftf on a puzzle cache. There was no geochecker. The puzzle had an error in the formula that put us at another cache (by coincidence) that had been archived. The CO realized the error after I mentioned the archived cache. As we were the first to attempt the find she gave us the correct coordinates and we made the FTF find. If she had just changed the formula and not emailed me I would have been fine with that.

[+Team Microdot]

Haha, we were joking a lot about logging FTDNF when we were heading back from there!

 

I've written quite long FTDNF logs several times - occasionally in full drama-queen mode - it can be quite a giggle

[Pup Patrol]

Advice on logging FTF without actually signing the log finding the cache

 

FTF means "first to find", no?

 

You didn't find the cache. It's a "did not find".

 

The cache owner made a mistake. FTF hounds get used to that sort of thing, and take their lumps, knowing it's part of the game.

 

If the cache owner had neglected to put a container and log book out there, not expecting their cache to be published so quickly, would it be any different?

 

 

 

B.

[4wheelin_fool]

If claiming the FTF is more enjoyable than solving the puzzle and visiting the location, then you probably should have skipped it altogether. FTF is the icing on the cake, not the cake. If this sounds wrong, you may have an unhealthy obsession.

[+kunarion]

What would you do?

I would make a nice log (DNF or whatever) about the adventure, basically the OP post, but complimentary about the puzzle and cache spot, not so much about the disappointment from the CO mistake.

 

What became of that cache? Did the coords get corrected to "50 to 100 meters further away"?

 

“First To Find” seems to be a magor big deal where you are (as it is here). Someone will arrive someday and sign the log and be the “First To Find”, and First To Fireworks will break out. I'd suggest this, just between the two of us:

Please be careful about using the word “First” at all in such a log, in your region. It will create a huge rift between you and the cachers who (first) find the actual container and sign the clean log. Which is only OK if you'll never encounter others in the local Geocaching community or are on your way out of the game.

Edited April 24, 2013 by kunarion

[+mamoreb]

If claiming the FTF is more enjoyable than solving the puzzle and visiting the location, then you probably should have skipped it altogether. FTF is the icing on the cake, not the cake. If this sounds wrong, you may have an unhealthy obsession.

 

Thanks for clarifying that I've got things right.

 

I don't feel like an FTF "winner" at the moment, although I do think we would have deserved it, and although there are people that suggest that I should.

 

Thank you all, our community has regular discussions about who gets to claim FTF, who gets to log, under which conditions, depending on which suggestions by the cache owner. I guess it's pretty much the same everywhere! Fortunately people seem to be content with disagreeing on the specifics - no flame wars yet.

[+lamoracke]

Am not a caching puritan, but even in this case, I would not claim a FTF. Its unfortunate, it happens occasionally with puzzles, somehow you have the wrong coordinates and you waste time looking for it...geochecker or not (because a geochecker can have wrong coordinates too). I'd log the DNF and hope to make the actual find first, but if not, well, happens.

[+flgAZ]

A component of being FTF is the possibility that you are going on a wild goose chase and you are the one to confirm the Coords are wrong and willing to come up empty handed. Not willing to risk it? then let someone else be ftf.

[+bflentje]

If it's going to make you feel good and whole then go ahead and log a FTF. But for me, integrity has to prevail. If I am not on the top of the paper log, it's not an FTF.

[+mamoreb]

Thanks all, for your opinions! Interesting to see that this type of topic (once again) catches such attention.

 

Personally, I reached my decision earlier this morning. I'll return to the location at first opportunity, to sign the log myself.

 

If it's going to make you feel good and whole then go ahead and log a FTF. But for me, integrity has to prevail. If I am not on the top of the paper log, it's not an FTF.

 

I guess this is your general recommendation. As I said in the first post, I'm not feeling good about logging FTF based on what happened. The major problem here was that solving the mystery was a joint effort between several geocachers, and it is hard to find a solution that suits everyone and treats everyone fairly. I guess the lesson is, never cooperate with anyone on mysteries, as you might have to disappoint yourself or them.

[4wheelin_fool]

The cache owner offered you something which was not his. He was embarrassed and only trying to make you feel better. The FTF is not an award, but a fact.

[+bflentje]

Thanks all, for your opinions! Interesting to see that this type of topic (once again) catches such attention.

 

Personally, I reached my decision earlier this morning. I'll return to the location at first opportunity, to sign the log myself.

 

If it's going to make you feel good and whole then go ahead and log a FTF. But for me, integrity has to prevail. If I am not on the top of the paper log, it's not an FTF.

 

I guess this is your general recommendation. As I said in the first post, I'm not feeling good about logging FTF based on what happened. The major problem here was that solving the mystery was a joint effort between several geocachers, and it is hard to find a solution that suits everyone and treats everyone fairly. I guess the lesson is, never cooperate with anyone on mysteries, as you might have to disappoint yourself or them.

 

If you're going to build your philosophy on the notion that there's risk so why bother, you couldn't possibly get through the day without just sitting there staring at a wall and spending your life doing absolutely nothing. Silly.

 

Accept the risk. Take the risk. If it works? Great. If not? Move on to the next risk. If a real FTF works it's way into that process somehow that'd be a bonus. But up to this point, it's not a first to FIND.

[+edscott]

FTF...DNF... they are just numbers. I have 14 of the first and 687 of the latter. I don't try for either one, they just happen.

[+Team Microdot]

As I said in the first post, I'm not feeling good about logging FTF based on what happened.

 

I wouldn't feel good about it either - if I had an unfair advantage in the form of extra guidance direct from the CO - less of a 'found it' and more of a 'steered toward it'.

 

I guess the lesson is, never cooperate with anyone on mysteries, as you might have to disappoint yourself or them.

 

Unless of course you agree up-front what will happen if/when it turns out not all team members can head out together for the FTF, then there's no issue.

[+geodarts]

The major problem here was that solving the mystery was a joint effort between several geocachers, and it is hard to find a solution that suits everyone and treats everyone fairly. I guess the lesson is, never cooperate with anyone on mysteries, as you might have to disappoint yourself or them.

 

A few months ago, I went to a new decoy cache , signed a blank log that was labeled "geocache," and recorded my visit online from my phone in case there was anybody going out of their way to get there first. By the time I got home, the log was deleted because the CO maintained that I had not signed anything. After a lot of correspondence and two visits to the cache from the CO, he realized that he had left a bison tube as swag in a container and that the tube inadvertently had a log (which I had signed) that was different than what was intended. He offered to sign my name on the correct log, but I wanted to do it in the manner in which the cache was intended. He ended up disabling the cache and I came by the next morning, quickly figured out the twist, and signed the log.

 

Since I never claim a first or use the three initials in a log, it was not necessary. But nevertheless I appreciated the CO's effort. So one possible solution would be for the CO to take a similar approach and disable the cache until you both can go back. But one part of the seeking any cache first is that the coordinates could be wrong for any number of reasons, whether it be a mistake in the puzzle, a transcription error, or a jumpy gpsr. These things happen. There is no disappointment if there is no expectation.

[+larryc43230]

FTF...DNF... they are just numbers. I have 14 of the first and 687 of the latter. I don't try for either one, they just happen.

^ ^ ^ ^

This. Except my numbers are different. And in my profile.

 

The only time I've ever actively sought out an FTF was when a local cacher hid a new cache 2/10 of a mile from where I was sitting at home. In that one single case, I couldn't resist. I generally prefer that someone else beta test new cache hides.

 

--Larry

[+4wheeler]

Since there really in no such thing as FTF in Geocaching.com stats and therefore no official rules about FTF. The only rules that you have to follow about FTF are those that you make for yourself. Do what ever you can live with.

[+dprovan]

Personally, I reached my decision earlier this morning. I'll return to the location at first opportunity, to sign the log myself.

Yeah, that's what I'd do. Maybe not even worry about the first opportunity, just get it next I was in the area. (In this case, perhaps after the snow's gone!)

 

On the other hand, I wouldn't be upset if you did claim the offered FTF, either. Oh, sure, if I was the "real" FTF, I'd razz both you and the CO about your "fake" FTF, but it would be just for fun, not because I really thought it was bad.

[AZcachemeister]

 

And in most cases, all group members are at least in the proximity of GZ when the cache is found and the logbook signed.

 

Wouldn't the alternative be classed as armchair logging and isn't that frowned upon?

 

Let's take it to the extreme - I know most of the FTF sharks / hounds in my area - we could form a collective and so long as one of us manages to get to GZ and be first to find the cache that person could log us all in and we could freeze out the competition

 

Eventually everyone else would give up and our FTF's would be guaranteed - at which point the actual challenge of being FTF would be completely removed and that whole sub-game would become completely pointless

 

The OP was considering the offer of an FTF (from the CO) without even finding the cache, so if 1/2 of the FTF attempt team goes back and signs, it's at least a bit more sanitary.

 

I've said this before, and it bears repeating:

 

When it's a foregone conclusion that team X, Y, or Z will inevitably be FTF, the STF is the 'TF' that becomes important.

 

Indeed, I have logged 'FTF after (local FTF hound)!' more than a few times.

[+PC Painter]

It sucks (and there really aren't any FTF rules, of course) but the rules I go by for myself are that, if I wasn't actually the first person to physically find and hold the cache...then I don't claim FTF. I once went out on about a 2 mile hike up over hills (many years ago) to be FTF on a new hide in the local foothills. Another guy showed up and we both searched for well over an hour all over the place. Got home and logged the DNF...only to find out later that the CO screwed up on the coords by over a quarter of a mile!

 

Now....I WAS the first person there...and I DID find the coords given....but I was not the first to find the cache...so I never claimed it.

 

I can absolutely see why you would want to claim FTF...and I would not fault you if you did...just asnwering as to what *I* would do.

[+mamoreb]

PC Painter, I definitely agree with you. The problem is, what if you had the opportunity to go back to the correct coordinates the next day, while the guy that searched with you for over an hour did not have that opportunity, and the cache owner offered you both FTF?

 

As there might be people here interested in the proceedings...

 

I went back there again yesterday, found the container, and signed it with my own hand, as FTF. My co-cacher chose to accept the cache owner's offer, and logged FTF based on our experience earlier in the week. He had already been added to the log by the cache owner, but based on the history and the offer from the owner, I would have been happy to add his nick along with mine. We both agree that both of us may claim FTF on this geocache. And to avoid too much confusion, our online logs are on the same date.