When a CO changes the D/T on a cache...

[+baloo&bd]

Lets see here - same cache listing, same container, same hide location same owner but a new housing division rolls in and it is no longer a 2 mile hike to the cache along a rough path because of the brand new road 75 feet away and much of the brush from the road is cleared. (real example)

 

Your telling me to archive the cache and submit a new one rather than do a simple edit of the T from 3 to 1.5 rating to reflect reality?? Just so I don't upset the 1 in 10 cachers (at most) that cares about filling in a grid??

 

Roman, help me out here.

 

Let's take the above example. It was place January of 2001. The next closest January 2001 is 589 miles from this GZ. Am I being selfish to those filling the date grid to archive it and put the correct D/T rating on the new one, thus depriving them from that placed date combo? If I leave the D/T combo as is, and the location has a fantastic view, am I depriving someone from finding this cache because for whatever reason they do not look for caches over a 3 terrain? Am I being fair to those who found it when it was a 3 terrain to issue a gimme to the new finders?

 

Help me, which of these are selfish and which are not? What are the guidelines?

 

I just started to try to fill grids recently to add some further challenge. While I would be disappointed, if there were valid reasons for changes, they would not bother me. It would bother me however, if a cache that was placed in a rare month/year combo was replaced to preserve the D/T combo, as the later can always re-appear nearby where the former never can once it is archived.

[+NeverSummer]

 

Roman, help me out here.

 

Let's take the above example. It was place January of 2001. The next closest January 2001 is 589 miles from this GZ. Am I being selfish to those filling the date grid to archive it and put the correct D/T rating on the new one, thus depriving them from that placed date combo? If I leave the D/T combo as is, and the location has a fantastic view, am I depriving someone from finding this cache because for whatever reason they do not look for caches over a 3 terrain? Am I being fair to those who found it when it was a 3 terrain to issue a gimme to the new finders?

 

Help me, which of these are selfish and which are not? What are the guidelines?

 

I just started to try to fill grids recently to add some further challenge. While I would be disappointed, if there were valid reasons for changes, they would not bother me. It would bother me however, if a cache that was placed in a rare month/year combo was replaced to preserve the D/T combo, as the later can always re-appear nearby where the former never can once it is archived.

Roman has moved on to other trolling efforts. Easter and April Fool's Day must have had the geobeer flowing more than usual...

[+DanOCan]

Last, you make more friends if you think about other people even you dont agree with them. Geocaching is not a place to be selfish and heartless. Its not a computer game, its a community game. If you lack social skill, geocaching isnt the game for you.

But, how should I know what reasons people have for seeking out my cache? What if I archive the listing and make a new one? Won't that annoy people who found my cache because they are radius slaves and wanted the area cleaned out? How selfish of me to force people to return to the same area to find a cache again!

[+DanOCan]

What about the flip side? A mundane cache gets altered and suddenly becomes a rare D/T combination. Suddenly people qualify for a challenge that they didn't really earn! Release the hounds!

 

Basing a challenge on something that is designed to be dynamic is just a bad idea.

 

Is it any wonder I think challenge caches should have been eliminated when all the other ALRs went away?

[+Sharks-N-Beans]

Lets see here - same cache listing, same container, same hide location same owner but a new housing division rolls in and it is no longer a 2 mile hike to the cache along a rough path because of the brand new road 75 feet away and much of the brush from the road is cleared. (real example)

 

Your telling me to archive the cache and submit a new one rather than do a simple edit of the T from 3 to 1.5 rating to reflect reality?? Just so I don't upset the 1 in 10 cachers (at most) that cares about filling in a grid??

 

really, that seems like a reasonable approach to some of you??

 

It would honestly have never occurred to me to even think of that until I read this thread. Lord knows I have been around these forums for a looooong time.

 

No, it's not about the grid. It's more about the history of the cache. People like to discuss common experiences. It actually never would have occurred to me not to archive (although I have not experienced the scenario). When we run into other cachers, there is usually discussion regarding cache preferences and this leads to "Have you found XXXXX"? There is a certain camaraderie between cachers who prefer a certain terrain type. If the terrain changes, that common link is lost. One cacher is remembering a two mile hike, the other, a park-n-grab. Ya, I would archive.

[+BlueDeuce]

--Lets get down to the bottom of all this:

 

I flipped your first two points for continuity.

 

-- Difficulty ratings are important to SOME number of geocachers.

 

Ratings are important to the majority of cachers. It tells us two things - What to expect when going for a cache and provides a record of the level of effort we achieved. SOME cachers are proud of attempting a 5/5. MOST cachers really, really, really, did I say really? want the cache to be properly listed so they know what they are looking for.

 

-- Difficulty ratings are subject to change. There is no rule by GS to rate a cache a certain way, it is the honor system

 

The only problem is the reviewer catching someone lying. Like when the owner submits the cache stating it's a Lamepost cache and they are listing it as a D4 because of muggles.

 

-- Grid chasing geocachers ASK but do NOT demand that if you are going to change a rating (especially the higher start count caches) just be careful and thorough about it. To please remember that for some it may impact them. However, they understand fully if it has to happen.

 

If that were true we wouldn't be having this discussion. Demand is far more the case than not.

 

-- that many enjoy the game differently. We all must live with the decisions of other players and are free to make our moves and play as we see fit and really don't have any say in how others play. But we appreciate when we share our feelings on certain aspects that folks respect that point-of-view as just that...a point of view.

 

Playing the game differently doesn't permit you to keep my coin, log my cache without having found it, list your cache as a lie, and assume that what you want is more important.

[+Roman!]

Lets see here - same cache listing, same container, same hide location same owner but a new housing division rolls in and it is no longer a 2 mile hike to the cache along a rough path because of the brand new road 75 feet away and much of the brush from the road is cleared. (real example)

 

Your telling me to archive the cache and submit a new one rather than do a simple edit of the T from 3 to 1.5 rating to reflect reality?? Just so I don't upset the 1 in 10 cachers (at most) that cares about filling in a grid??

 

Roman, help me out here.

 

Let's take the above example. It was place January of 2001. The next closest January 2001 is 589 miles from this GZ. Am I being selfish to those filling the date grid to archive it and put the correct D/T rating on the new one, thus depriving them from that placed date combo? If I leave the D/T combo as is, and the location has a fantastic view, am I depriving someone from finding this cache because for whatever reason they do not look for caches over a 3 terrain? Am I being fair to those who found it when it was a 3 terrain to issue a gimme to the new finders?

 

Help me, which of these are selfish and which are not? What are the guidelines?

 

I just started to try to fill grids recently to add some further challenge. While I would be disappointed, if there were valid reasons for changes, they would not bother me. It would bother me however, if a cache that was placed in a rare month/year combo was replaced to preserve the D/T combo, as the later can always re-appear nearby where the former never can once it is archived.

 

By archiving the cache you are not affecting anyone's stats, fact is old caches do get archived, some people may have gone well out of there way for your D/T combo so changing it can affect other people's stats.

 

But since you like extreme examplea, someone finds your 4.5/5 cache and fills his grid, on his hike out he falls and is paralyzed, a month later a road in is built, would you change the D/T knowing he'll never be able to find another.

 

Or the owner of Mingo moves it 100 yards and changes the date placed, now it is affecting others stats, is this

Edited April 4, 2013 by Roman!

[+Roman!]

Last, you make more friends if you think about other people even you dont agree with them. Geocaching is not a place to be selfish and heartless. Its not a computer game, its a community game. If you lack social skill, geocaching isnt the game for you.

But, how should I know what reasons people have for seeking out my cache? What if I archive the listing and make a new one? Won't that annoy people who found my cache because they are radius slaves and wanted the area cleaned out? How selfish of me to force people to return to the same area to find a cache again!

 

First of all if you create a rare D/T combo you already know why people will be finding your cache and if you don't you will soon learn from your logs.

 

Secondly most Geocachers I know like new caches coming out, even those that like to keep an empty radius, based on what you're saying no new geocaches should ever be published.

[+BlueDeuce]

By archiving the cache you are not affecting anyone's stats...

 

Provided I do nothing else than archive a cache

[+baloo&bd]

Lets see here - same cache listing, same container, same hide location same owner but a new housing division rolls in and it is no longer a 2 mile hike to the cache along a rough path because of the brand new road 75 feet away and much of the brush from the road is cleared. (real example)

 

Your telling me to archive the cache and submit a new one rather than do a simple edit of the T from 3 to 1.5 rating to reflect reality?? Just so I don't upset the 1 in 10 cachers (at most) that cares about filling in a grid??

 

Roman, help me out here.

 

Let's take the above example. It was place January of 2001. The next closest January 2001 is 589 miles from this GZ. Am I being selfish to those filling the date grid to archive it and put the correct D/T rating on the new one, thus depriving them from that placed date combo? If I leave the D/T combo as is, and the location has a fantastic view, am I depriving someone from finding this cache because for whatever reason they do not look for caches over a 3 terrain? Am I being fair to those who found it when it was a 3 terrain to issue a gimme to the new finders?

 

Help me, which of these are selfish and which are not? What are the guidelines?

 

I just started to try to fill grids recently to add some further challenge. While I would be disappointed, if there were valid reasons for changes, they would not bother me. It would bother me however, if a cache that was placed in a rare month/year combo was replaced to preserve the D/T combo, as the later can always re-appear nearby where the former never can once it is archived.

 

By archiving the cache you are not affecting anyone's stats, fact is old caches do get archived, some people may have gone well out of there way for your D/T combo so changing it can affect other people's stats.

 

But since you like extreme examplea, someone finds your 4.5/5 cache and fills his grid, on his hike out he falls and is paralyzed, a month later a road in is built, would you change the D/T knowing he'll never be able to find another.

 

Or the owner of Mingo moves it 100 yards and changes the date placed, now it is affecting others stats, is this

 

When it comes down to it, your trying to find a solution for a problem that does not exist. So rare in fact, that there have been few mentions of it in the forums.

 

The examples were not extreme while I used the example given in the thread, that very issue happened one state over from me. Contrary to your opening statement in this reply, you certainly are affecting someone stats. If Mingo is the only 5/00 nearby, which by the way is a very rare placed date, and it is moved and changed (as it should have been anyway) it does affect everyone's ability to obtain that date, where as the D/T will only affect those that have only found that particular cache and they can more readily replace the combo.

 

As an example, if you are looking to fill a grid square for the month/year combo 7/00, in the US you only have 5 possibilities left in all 50 states. Conversely, if I changed a 5/3.5 today, there are not only 342 more opportunities in the US to get one of those, over the next 5 years there could well be 100 or more placed.

 

If that swamp is filled in, has a road and sidewalk installed within 100 feet of the cache, you can bet I would change the 3.5 to a 1.5 or 2. To do anything else would be dishonest.

[+Roman!]

Lets see here - same cache listing, same container, same hide location same owner but a new housing division rolls in and it is no longer a 2 mile hike to the cache along a rough path because of the brand new road 75 feet away and much of the brush from the road is cleared. (real example)

 

Your telling me to archive the cache and submit a new one rather than do a simple edit of the T from 3 to 1.5 rating to reflect reality?? Just so I don't upset the 1 in 10 cachers (at most) that cares about filling in a grid??

 

Roman, help me out here.

 

Let's take the above example. It was place January of 2001. The next closest January 2001 is 589 miles from this GZ. Am I being selfish to those filling the date grid to archive it and put the correct D/T rating on the new one, thus depriving them from that placed date combo? If I leave the D/T combo as is, and the location has a fantastic view, am I depriving someone from finding this cache because for whatever reason they do not look for caches over a 3 terrain? Am I being fair to those who found it when it was a 3 terrain to issue a gimme to the new finders?

 

Help me, which of these are selfish and which are not? What are the guidelines?

 

I just started to try to fill grids recently to add some further challenge. While I would be disappointed, if there were valid reasons for changes, they would not bother me. It would bother me however, if a cache that was placed in a rare month/year combo was replaced to preserve the D/T combo, as the later can always re-appear nearby where the former never can once it is archived.

 

By archiving the cache you are not affecting anyone's stats, fact is old caches do get archived, some people may have gone well out of there way for your D/T combo so changing it can affect other people's stats.

 

But since you like extreme examplea, someone finds your 4.5/5 cache and fills his grid, on his hike out he falls and is paralyzed, a month later a road in is built, would you change the D/T knowing he'll never be able to find another.

 

Or the owner of Mingo moves it 100 yards and changes the date placed, now it is affecting others stats, is this

 

When it comes down to it, your trying to find a solution for a problem that does not exist. So rare in fact, that there have been few mentions of it in the forums.

 

The examples were not extreme while I used the example given in the thread, that very issue happened one state over from me. Contrary to your opening statement in this reply, you certainly are affecting someone stats. If Mingo is the only 5/00 nearby, which by the way is a very rare placed date, and it is moved and changed (as it should have been anyway) it does affect everyone's ability to obtain that date, where as the D/T will only affect those that have only found that particular cache and they can more readily replace the combo.

 

As an example, if you are looking to fill a grid square for the month/year combo 7/00, in the US you only have 5 possibilities left in all 50 states. Conversely, if I changed a 5/3.5 today, there are not only 342 more opportunities in the US to get one of those, over the next 5 years there could well be 100 or more placed.

 

If that swamp is filled in, has a road and sidewalk installed within 100 feet of the cache, you can bet I would change the 3.5 to a 1.5 or 2. To do anything else would be dishonest.

 

But in both cases you are affecting someone that more than likely went out of their way to find your cache, just the level of inconvenience changes.

 

So where do you draw the line on what level of inconvenience is acceptable, personally I'd never change a rare D/T combo that I know people found specially for that fact and I do own a couple. Would it be OK to change the date of a rare date cache? IMHO, it wouldn't be right either.

 

In both cases the CO can ultimately do what they want but there's a good chance they will upset people, how much and how many, don't know but is that something as a CO and part of your community you want to do?

 

And if your answer is I don't care if I upset others then yes, you are selfish.

[+BlueDeuce]

 

But in both cases you are affecting someone that more than likely went out of their way to find your cache, just the level of inconvenience changes.

 

So where do you draw the line on what level of inconvenience is acceptable, personally I'd never change a rare D/T combo that I know people found specially for that fact and I do own a couple. Would it be OK to change the date of a rare date cache? IMHO, it wouldn't be right either.

 

In both cases the CO can ultimately do what they want but there's a good chance they will upset people, how much and how many, don't know but is that something as a CO and part of your community you want to do?

 

And if your answer is I don't care if I upset others then yes, you are selfish.

 

Ah the ol' ultimately but approach. Everything is fine unless you disagree with me.

[+fizzymagic]

And if your answer is I don't care if I upset others then yes, you are selfish.

 

Black Hole. Charcoal. Ebony.

[+Roman!]

And if your answer is I don't care if I upset others then yes, you are selfish.

 

Black Hole. Charcoal. Ebony.

so you are trying to justify others (your) selfishness by saying I am too? Doesn't change the fact they (you) are.

[+Manville Possum]

We had to change the D/T rating of one of our listings once and got an email from another user stating that they would have to remove our listing from their list of geocaches to find when they passed through our area. Instead of a "please do" reply we asked them what we should rate our listing to fill their needs. We never got a reply. I have another listing that is a micro (film canister) and the last logs were "too small". I have never placed a geocache and begged another user to find it. If you don't like it, don't log it. No need to insult a geocache owner for maintaining a listing for others to enjoy.

[+niraD]

In both cases the CO can ultimately do what they want but there's a good chance they will upset people, how much and how many, don't know but is that something as a CO and part of your community you want to do?

Changing the ratings affects people playing some grid-based side games. Archiving the cache and relisting it affects people playing other grid-based side games. My choice is to ignore whatever side games others may or may not be playing, and keep the listings as accurate as possible (in the face of changing circumstances) for the sake of seekers (and potential seekers) in the future.

[+Don_J]

 

But in both cases you are affecting someone that more than likely went out of their way to find your cache, just the level of inconvenience changes.

 

So where do you draw the line on what level of inconvenience is acceptable, personally I'd never change a rare D/T combo that I know people found specially for that fact and I do own a couple. Would it be OK to change the date of a rare date cache? IMHO, it wouldn't be right either.

 

In both cases the CO can ultimately do what they want but there's a good chance they will upset people, how much and how many, don't know but is that something as a CO and part of your community you want to do?

 

And if your answer is I don't care if I upset others then yes, you are selfish.

 

I don't like the "I don't care" attitude either, but the more times I read you say that the only reason someone may have found my cache was because of the D/T combo, not because it's a good cache, not for the hike, or for the view, or for the adventure, but only because of the the listed D/T, I'm wondering if I really should care.

 

It seems that I do own a cache with a rare D/T. I didn't know this until you posted the link to the Project-GC site, and I certainly didn't rate it that way to help anyone fill a grid.

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

In both cases the CO can ultimately do what they want but there's a good chance they will upset people, how much and how many, don't know but is that something as a CO and part of your community you want to do?

 

There's the possibility I will upset *someone* no matter what I do to a cache listing (archive, move, change the D/T). I don't let things like that worry me. I do what I think needs to be done. If I did let that sort of thing make me lose sleep, I'd stop hiding caches, and archive all of existing ones.

[+DanOCan]

First of all if you create a rare D/T combo you already know why people will be finding your cache and if you don't you will soon learn from your logs.

 

OK, so I'll come right out and say it: "I don't care." My cache is hidden and exists to be its own experience, not to help someone else reach a challenge cache goal.

 

If I changed the rating on my cache I would note it on the cache page as an Owner Maintenance log explaining what the ratings were and what they were changed to. Anyone owning a challenge cache could easily view my cache page and know who logged it before the change.

[+TomToad]

People who change D/T ratings are not being selfish. They are not putting their own interests above others. They are putting the interests of one group of cachers (those that want accurate D/T) over the interests of other cachers (those who want D/T maintained for a challenge). That is not selfishness, that is recognizing you can't please all the people all the time.

 

Archiving a cache is not the answer. It is an abuse of the tools that have been provided us. Changing D/T is the tool to use when the terrain or difficulty has changed, archiving is the tool used when the cache is no longer feasible to maintain. In my opinion, archiving a cache just to change D/T is a violation of the permanence guideline.

[+Roman!]

People who change D/T ratings are not being selfish. They are not putting their own interests above others. They are putting the interests of one group of cachers (those that want accurate D/T) over the interests of other cachers (those who want D/T maintained for a challenge). That is not selfishness, that is recognizing you can't please all the people all the time.

 

Archiving a cache is not the answer. It is an abuse of the tools that have been provided us. Changing D/T is the tool to use when the terrain or difficulty has changed, archiving is the tool used when the cache is no longer feasible to maintain. In my opinion, archiving a cache just to change D/T is a violation of the permanence guideline.

 

So a cache running 50% favorite points due to a great hike that just turned into a P&G is accurate or misleading?

 

Archiving the cache is the answer as it has been drastically altered, if you have to change the D/T rating and cache write-up its not the same cache anymore.

 

The D/T grid is not a side game, it's an official GS stat.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Roman!

[+Roman!]

 

But in both cases you are affecting someone that more than likely went out of their way to find your cache, just the level of inconvenience changes.

 

So where do you draw the line on what level of inconvenience is acceptable, personally I'd never change a rare D/T combo that I know people found specially for that fact and I do own a couple. Would it be OK to change the date of a rare date cache? IMHO, it wouldn't be right either.

 

In both cases the CO can ultimately do what they want but there's a good chance they will upset people, how much and how many, don't know but is that something as a CO and part of your community you want to do?

 

And if your answer is I don't care if I upset others then yes, you are selfish.

 

I don't like the "I don't care" attitude either, but the more times I read you say that the only reason someone may have found my cache was because of the D/T combo, not because it's a good cache, not for the hike, or for the view, or for the adventure, but only because of the the listed D/T, I'm wondering if I really should care.

 

It seems that I do own a cache with a rare D/T. I didn't know this until you posted the link to the Project-GC site, and I certainly didn't rate it that way to help anyone fill a grid.

 

When you have a rare rating some people do go out and find your cache for that reason only but not all. It's just an easy way to point out the impact changing it may have on other cachers. But let's say your great hike turned into a P&G would you delete the great description into "quick P&G"?

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

 

But in both cases you are affecting someone that more than likely went out of their way to find your cache, just the level of inconvenience changes.

 

So where do you draw the line on what level of inconvenience is acceptable, personally I'd never change a rare D/T combo that I know people found specially for that fact and I do own a couple. Would it be OK to change the date of a rare date cache? IMHO, it wouldn't be right either.

 

In both cases the CO can ultimately do what they want but there's a good chance they will upset people, how much and how many, don't know but is that something as a CO and part of your community you want to do?

 

And if your answer is I don't care if I upset others then yes, you are selfish.

 

I don't like the "I don't care" attitude either, but the more times I read you say that the only reason someone may have found my cache was because of the D/T combo, not because it's a good cache, not for the hike, or for the view, or for the adventure, but only because of the the listed D/T, I'm wondering if I really should care.

 

It seems that I do own a cache with a rare D/T. I didn't know this until you posted the link to the Project-GC site, and I certainly didn't rate it that way to help anyone fill a grid.

 

When you have a rare rating some people do go out and find your cache for that reason only but not all. It's just an easy way to point out the impact changing it may have on other cachers. But let's say your great hike turned into a P&G would you delete the great description into "quick P&G"?

 

If the purpose of the hike was to get you to some one-of-a-kind view, and that view is still there, yes, I would change the desciption to reflect that the view is still stunning, but is now much easier to get to. The view was the thing, not the walk.

 

And you keep bringing up the extreme example - a 4.5 Terrain down to a 1 Terrain.

 

What about something less drastic. Example: To get to the cache, you had to hike a couple of miles and ford a stream that was more than a trickle (which drives the Terrain rating). The AMC comes in and builds a bridge over that stream. Hike and cache are basically the same. Do you drop the T or archive and publish a new listing? To me the obvious answer is make the edit. The experience is basically the same, just a little easier. (Note this could happen in reverse as well - there as a bridge that got washed out, so the Terrain rating could increase).

Edited April 4, 2013 by BBWolf+3Pigs

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

The D/T grid is not a side game, it's an official GS stat.

 

Yes it is a Stat. Working to make sure yo have all of them so you can find a specific cache is a side game.

[+JL_HSTRE]

As someone who does care about Challenge Caches and stats, I sympathize with changes to D/T messing those up.

 

However, we must remember for nearly all cachers the D/T ratings are an important guideline when seeking a cache or deciding on what caches to seek. Also, the majority of cachers are casual cachers who will never care about challenges or stats.

 

My thoughts are this: if a problem with the D/T is noticed amongst the first several finders then change it. After awhile, just leave it alone unless there is a serious change and really don't worry about it for minor tweaks (ex: T4 becoming T4.5). The biggest issue tends to be higher rated caches (D/T above 3/3) as those caches tend to be much rarer. I think the most important change IMO is not revising a D/T rating downward, but revising it upward. This especially applies to the really easy ratings (1/1-1.5/1.5). Anything 2/2 or less is REALLY exchangeable for purposes of stats. I would rather look for a hard cache that proves easy than an easy cache that proves hard, especially since I will generally not spend a long time on a low-difficulty cache.

 

Also, as someone with a 1.9 average Terrain it is a little frustrating to hike/bike many miles to find a 1.5/1.5 cache which definitely should have had a higher terrain rating.

 

If there is a significant change that would require the D/T to change and the cache has been out for awhile, seriously consider archiving the listing and publishing a revised listing in the same area.

 

Personal anecdote related to D/T ratings: earlier this year, I placed a container that I thought might be pretty sneaky and it quickly piled up DNFs. Turned out there had been an error on my part and the posted coords were 65 ft off. With the right coords, cachers were having no trouble finding it. I started it as a D3 then bumped it to a D4 with the DNFs. Accurately revising it would put it as a D2, but I've left it as a D4 by way of apology for my error. For quite a few people, the D4 rating is accurate because it did take them multiple trips! Someone told me they ended up using the 4/2.5 D/T for a Challenge Cache.

[+TomToad]

I would agree that a new listing be done if a cache significantly changes. I do not agree in archiving a cache that itself has not changed, but simply the D/T changes. If I made a birdhouse cache and hung it in a tree next to a huge lake that was 2 miles from the closest parking coordinates, then a new subdivision was put in making parking only 200 feet away, then you change the D/T accordingly. It is still a birdhouse cache hung in a tree near a large lake. If the cache is muggled and I decide to replace it with a lock-n-lock 5 feet away, then the hide has significantly changed and archival and relisting would be okay.

 

If you wish for Groundspeak to implement something to lock the D/T on your stats for when you found the cache, I have no problem with that, and could even support such a change. However, until Groundspeak implements such a device, I think it is unfair to expect COs to not utilize the functions that have been provided to them just to keep your stats accurate.

 

For those of you who think that Groundspeak has sanctioned this side game because they have put a grid on your statistics page, Groundspeak has also sanctioned the CO with the right to change the D/T at any time because they had made those fields editable by the CO. Any resolution to the inconsistencies can only come from Groundspeak, not the CO.

[+Don_J]

 

But in both cases you are affecting someone that more than likely went out of their way to find your cache, just the level of inconvenience changes.

 

So where do you draw the line on what level of inconvenience is acceptable, personally I'd never change a rare D/T combo that I know people found specially for that fact and I do own a couple. Would it be OK to change the date of a rare date cache? IMHO, it wouldn't be right either.

 

In both cases the CO can ultimately do what they want but there's a good chance they will upset people, how much and how many, don't know but is that something as a CO and part of your community you want to do?

 

And if your answer is I don't care if I upset others then yes, you are selfish.

 

I don't like the "I don't care" attitude either, but the more times I read you say that the only reason someone may have found my cache was because of the D/T combo, not because it's a good cache, not for the hike, or for the view, or for the adventure, but only because of the the listed D/T, I'm wondering if I really should care.

 

It seems that I do own a cache with a rare D/T. I didn't know this until you posted the link to the Project-GC site, and I certainly didn't rate it that way to help anyone fill a grid.

 

When you have a rare rating some people do go out and find your cache for that reason only but not all. It's just an easy way to point out the impact changing it may have on other cachers. But let's say your great hike turned into a P&G would you delete the great description into "quick P&G"?

 

If they paved a road to my epic adventure and turned it into a P&G, I'd archive it in a heartbeat. If I still wanted to have a cache there, I would create an entire new cache and listing. However, my main reason for doing so is based on how I have always felt about such situations. It has nothing to do with keeping a spot filled in on other cachers profiles.

 

I do think that you are missing part of my point. I've stated many times how I would handle these situations and I am more on your side than I am against it, but I also think that regardless of what one thinks or does with their caches, the end result should be that the listings are accurate.

 

My point was, if a cacher could care less about my cache if not for the D/T rating, why should I care about that cacher's goals? If the only value that my cache offers to him is the specific D/T rating, why should I value his needs above that of the entire caching community who expects accurate data in the cache listings that they are reading?

 

Also, contrary to what you may believe, I do not think that people create rare D/T caches. I think that they create caches and then rate them and that's just what the ratings turn out to be.

[+baloo&bd]

And if your answer is I don't care if I upset others then yes, you are selfish.

 

I care if I do something to upset others, however if doing something I agreed to and having the cache listing as accurate as possible. if they get upset it is their issue.

 

Again, as I mentioned earlier, this happens so rarely I do not understand why (beyond the troll factor) this is a charge you feel a need to lead.

[+Crow-T-Robot]

 

First of all if you create a rare D/T combo you already know why people will be finding your cache and if you don't you will soon learn from your logs.

 

 

You'll have to define rare. A true 1D/4.5T cache? Probaby very rare. A 1D/4.5T cache created as a grid filler? Not rare at all.

[+Roman!]

 

First of all if you create a rare D/T combo you already know why people will be finding your cache and if you don't you will soon learn from your logs.

 

 

You'll have to define rare. A true 1D/4.5T cache? Probaby very rare. A 1D/4.5T cache created as a grid filler? Not rare at all.

 

True and it would depend on your area, where I'm from there are very few grid fillers and some of the combos appear only 2-3 times within 100 miles

[+SwineFlew]

 

First of all if you create a rare D/T combo you already know why people will be finding your cache and if you don't you will soon learn from your logs.

 

 

You'll have to define rare. A true 1D/4.5T cache? Probaby very rare. A 1D/4.5T cache created as a grid filler? Not rare at all.

I have one thats a true 1D/4.5t cache but some people say its "easy" but it can become really hard if its under water or the bank is slippy in the winter. Its pretty rare combo around here. I did a 1D/4.5T cache and it was pretty close to a 4.5T. I have to bring a 6 foot step ladder along with me. A small step stool wont work. I drove over 70 miles to do that cache. Not many of those around. The CO is known to hide rare combo caches so I knew I was safe from the CO changing it. Oregon only got 12 1D/4.5T combos. I DNF one of them so I have to go to plan B for that combo. UGH!

[Clan Riffster]

Wow, Roman!, I didn't think that my reasonable post would merit such harsh criticism.

 

When I started caching, I wanted to complete the fizzy at some point. However, I didn't want to do it to log a cache, I just wanted to eventually be able to pat myself on the back for being a "well-rounded cacher". My mentality was that I would have to pick up a couple of each D/T combo to account for the changes that are made to cache listings.

 

I think this is a classic example of caching eras. There really weren't many "challenge cache" listings out when I began caching. It wasn't until the ALR boom that they really made seeking a specific D/T combo a "need" for cachers. Now, with cachers who were "born" into this era of caching, achieving all 81 combos is viewed as an achievement that is obtained as quickly as possible.

 

The fact is, so long as challenge caches us metrics containing items that might change, your grid might change. D/T were not designed for grids to be completed. Dates that a cache was hidden at the location were not designed for a side game. Completing these challenges might be challenging. Finding a "rare" combo is a challenge. Finding enough caches to complete a grid is a challenge. Finding enough combos to assure that you can qualify for a challenge cache is a challenge.

 

A challenge cache that includes all 81 d/t combos is a challenge to complete. Not recognizing that a cache owner has the ability and right to adjust the D/T of their caches is a problem. (Yes, yes, present all of the extreme cases you want. You know what I mean, and you're just tempted to be argumentative)

 

Again, if you want to find all 81 combos, great! Just be prepared for the rare instance where a combo is changed by an owner. They're called challenges for a reason.

 

I was commenting on the multiple posts saying who cares about someone else's grids. My point is that if you have a rare combo a good number of you finders will have sought out your cache for that very reason. Changing the rating is inconsiderate and may net you some nasty feedback.

 

I feel the posters saying tough luck are selfish and don't care about others or how others enjoy the game.

 

I don't care what games other people play, or how they play them. If people want to tromp out every day for a year to find a cache a day, or find 81 caches with different D/T combos, great. Let them play. But, those same people shouldn't complain about how I play the game - the way I play the game should not be held to the way someone else plays their game.

 

Exactly my point, you don't care about others. If you choose to find only 5/5 caches that's great, your actions do not affect anyone but changing a D/T combo can affect other people and not caring how your actions affect people is selfish.

 

And its selfish of other people to expect me to keep my cache listing the way it is when they find it.

No, its the other way around.

<snip>

Last, you make more friends if you think about other people even you dont agree with them. Geocaching is not a place to be selfish and heartless. Its not a computer game, its a community game. If you lack social skill, geocaching isnt the game for you.

No, it's the other way around.

This is Geocaching dot com. Not Gridfilling dot com.

It is horribly inconsiderate of you to expect me to let an inaccurate D/T stand, simply because changing it might force you to do something challenging, such as locating an unusual rating. It is equally inconsiderate of you to expect me to archive my cache simply because of a minor change in the actual D/T warrants changing the D/T rating. If my cache is viable, and can be made accurate for future finders, there is no reason to archive it.

 

You make more friends if you think about other people, even if you don't agree with them.

Geocaching is not a place to be selfish and heartless.

It's not a computer game, it's a community game.

If you lack social skills, geocaching isn't the game for you.

[+TheWeatherWarrior]

If you lack social skills, geocaching isn't the game for you.

Are you kidding....geocaching is the PERFECT anti-social hobby. You spend hours on your own away from people in deep woods doing strange things and part of the game depends on your being unseen. It is one the BEST things for folks lacking social skills!

 

Bottomline, cache owner always has the right to do what they feel they need to do. If you feel it necessary to contact the CO if a change occurred, then do so. Just respect the final decision.

[+Roman!]

If you lack social skills, geocaching isn't the game for you.

Are you kidding....geocaching is the PERFECT anti-social hobby. You spend hours on your own away from people in deep woods doing strange things and part of the game depends on your being unseen. It is one the BEST things for folks lacking social skills!

 

Bottomline, cache owner always has the right to do what they feel they need to do. If you feel it necessary to contact the CO if a change occurred, then do so. Just respect the final decision.

 

For the most part I actually agree with, the only thing I'd add is your decisions as a CO can affect others, sometimes in a negative way and whether you like it or not you are part of a community and someday your actions may affect you in a negative way.

[+niraD]

Archiving the cache is the answer as it has been drastically altered, if you have to change the D/T rating and cache write-up its not the same cache anymore.

Sure, if the point of the cache was the challenge of finding the cache (difficulty) or the challenge of reaching the cache location (terrain). In such cases, a change that affects the difficulty–terrain rating changes the essential nature of the cache.

 

But if the point of the cache was something else (e.g., the historical location, the scenic view, the puzzle with an in-theme final location), then no. In such cases, it is essentially the same cache, and there is no reason to archive and relist the cache. Just change the rating to reflect the current situation, so future seekers (and potential seekers) are properly informed, and can use the available filtering tools appropriately.

 

The D/T grid is not a side game, it's an official GS stat.

And coordinates are an official part of the game. And cache sizes are an official part of the game. And cache names are an official part of the game. And cache owner names are an official part of the game.

 

But the game is about finding geocaches.

 

Seeking out specific geocaches because you want to make pretty patterns using their cache owner names, or their cache names, or their cache sizes, or their coordinates, or their difficulty–terrain ratings is a side game.

[+Team Bullis]

Two thoughts.

 

1. If challenge caches didn't exist, then we would still challenge ourselves and work towards goals, just as there are websites devoted to the climbing of mountains and there are "LISTS" of your completions. I think it is human nature to challenge oneself and others.

 

2. I think there should be a rule for the changing of D and T ratings since I have had them changed on my charts and now it looks like I didn't complete that challenge after all.

Here is what I would suggest: After the cache is published, the owner has 1 year to freely change the D and T or an adjustment period. After which the cache is locked and grandfathered. I would doubt that the higher terrain numbers would change much, but if the situation did arrive where man put a road up to a 4.5 terrain cache, then that is an awesome achievement and I feel the cache is now a gimmee on the grid. Now you have a new geotourist destination. The word would spread "hey you want a 4.5 that's grandfathered and is now a PNG?"

[+Sharks-N-Beans]

2. I think there should be a rule for the changing of D and T ratings since I have had them changed on my charts and now it looks like I didn't complete that challenge after all.

 

If you have had a challenge find questioned or rejected, provide the details. Otherwise you are suggesting regulation of a non issue. That sounds a bit snarkish (not the intent as coffee hasn't quite set in). I stated somewhere that I believe caches should be archived instead of ratings drastically changed, but not for grid reasons.

[+Oxford Stone]

I happily did myself out of a new combo the other day by pointing out that under a log by a lakeside footpath isn't T 3.5. I really only notice numbers of 3 and above, which is where I imagine the challenge starts too (IIRC I've not got 1/3 or 3/1 yet and of course many points S & E of there - only started in October though) - I've no idea what today's 4 caches (gentle walk in fields, nothing above waist height) were. Still looking forward to my first T5, planned for the summer when a friends specialist equipment becomes available!

[+OZ2CPU]

alot of caches are bit wrong rated anyway, so no need to modify them when nature changes a bit,

I rather accept a little bit too low or high rating, and keep it like that for its active life,

this way you are sure you make MOST people happy,

CO place caches to make OTHERS happy..

 

lets say something out there changes ALOT,

(and your cache is not special in other stats way,

like VERY old, from 2000 or 2001) then you should archive it,

and place a new one with the now new correct D/T rating, if this is super important for you.

 

again remember : ratings are not measured with a Caliper, but by humans,

they got VERY different skils, so offcourse ratings can be very different..

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

alot of caches are bit wrong rated anyway, so no need to modify them when nature changes a bit,

I rather accept a little bit too low or high rating, and keep it like that for its active life,

this way you are sure you make MOST people happy,

CO place caches to make OTHERS happy..

 

lets say something out there changes ALOT,

(and your cache is not special in other stats way,

like VERY old, from 2000 or 2001) then you should archive it,

and place a new one with the now new correct D/T rating, if this is super important for you.

 

again remember : ratings are not measured with a Caliper, but by humans,

they got VERY different skils, so offcourse ratings can be very different..

 

So what would you do in my example above (Post #122)? Archive it or change to Terrain rating to reflect the change? Although terrain has chnaged, the overal cache experience hasn't. To archive and re-list is silly.

[+OZ2CPU]

leave it unchanged, is the way you make most people happy.

my number ONE goal in geocaching, you may have other goals, I am fine with that :-)

you are only one person in the world a little bit sad about you know and feel its ratings are a little bit wrong,

as a CO just accept not all can be perfect..

like a visitor can put the ammo box on top of your geosticks, so your D2 can now be seen 100 feet away

now it is a D1 hide. what can we do about it ? not much..

[+bflentje]

the only thing I'd add is your decisions as a CO can affect others, sometimes in a negative way and whether you like it or not you are part of a community and someday your actions may affect you in a negative way.

 

Time to get over it.

[Clan Riffster]

If challenge caches didn't exist, then we would still challenge ourselves and work towards goals, just as there are websites devoted to the climbing of mountains and there are "LISTS" of your completions. I think it is human nature to challenge oneself and others.

Maybe my memory is faulty. I don't recall challenge caches from my early days. We started playing about the same time. Did they exist when you started? The first one I seem to recall was a Fizzy challenge. I don't remember when it popped up. Color me clueless...

 

Back when I started playing, (what I call the pre-challenge days, though I could be wrong about that), I did not challenge myself or work toward goals. I still don't. I play this little hobby to hunt ammo cans, and other quality containers, in interesting places. Not to compile statistics.

 

leave it unchanged, is the way you make most people happy.

Keeping your D/T ratings accurate, is the way you make the most people happy.

[+NeverSummer]

If challenge caches didn't exist, then we would still challenge ourselves and work towards goals, just as there are websites devoted to the climbing of mountains and there are "LISTS" of your completions. I think it is human nature to challenge oneself and others.

Maybe my memory is faulty. I don't recall challenge caches from my early days. We started playing about the same time. Did they exist when you started? The first one I seem to recall was a Fizzy challenge. I don't remember when it popped up. Color me clueless...

 

Back when I started playing, (what I call the pre-challenge days, though I could be wrong about that), I did not challenge myself or work toward goals. I still don't. I play this little hobby to hunt ammo cans, and other quality containers, in interesting places. Not to compile statistics.

I remember when only a handful of localized "fizzy challenge" caches were around. Then there came a slow, but steady increase in ALR caches, and more Challenges. I feel like it really got some momentum around 2008 or 2009 on the suburbs of Portland, OR. Not long after, ALR caches were no longer allowed, yet Challenges remained. I hope someone can help jog our memories as to when the Fizzy Challenge was first placed.

 

leave it unchanged, is the way you make most people happy.

Keeping your D/T ratings accurate, is the way you make the most people happy.

I couldn't agree more. Accurate D/T, coordinates and descriptions are more important than the use of generated statistics to complete a Challenge cache. I think of it as something not unlike mathematical "order of operations"; certain parts of the greater process trump others.

Edited April 9, 2013 by NeverSummer

[+Roman!]

If challenge caches didn't exist, then we would still challenge ourselves and work towards goals, just as there are websites devoted to the climbing of mountains and there are "LISTS" of your completions. I think it is human nature to challenge oneself and others.

Maybe my memory is faulty. I don't recall challenge caches from my early days. We started playing about the same time. Did they exist when you started? The first one I seem to recall was a Fizzy challenge. I don't remember when it popped up. Color me clueless...

 

Back when I started playing, (what I call the pre-challenge days, though I could be wrong about that), I did not challenge myself or work toward goals. I still don't. I play this little hobby to hunt ammo cans, and other quality containers, in interesting places. Not to compile statistics.

I remember when only a handful of localized "fizzy challenge" caches were around. Then there came a slow, but steady increase in ALR caches, and more Challenges. I feel like it really got some momentum around 2008 or 2009 on the suburbs of Portland, OR. Not long after, ALR caches were no longer allowed, yet Challenges remained. I hope someone can help jog our memories as to when the Fizzy Challenge was first placed.

 

leave it unchanged, is the way you make most people happy.

Keeping your D/T ratings accurate, is the way you make the most people happy.

I couldn't agree more. Accurate D/T, coordinates and descriptions are more important than the use of generated statistics to complete a Challenge cache. I think of it as something not unlike mathematical "order of operations"; certain parts of the greater process trump others.

 

What about a muggled cache that is replaced, wouldn't it be accurate to change the date placed ? GCD should now be a 2012 cache and Mingo not the oldest cache in the world.

[+Don_J]

 

Back when I started playing, (what I call the pre-challenge days, though I could be wrong about that), I did not challenge myself or work toward goals. I still don't. I play this little hobby to hunt ammo cans, and other quality containers, in interesting places. Not to compile statistics.

 

 

But, statistics are important...

 

[+NeverSummer]

What about a muggled cache that is replaced, wouldn't it be accurate to change the date placed ? GCD should now be a 2012 cache and Mingo not the oldest cache in the world.

Now you're just trying to pick another fight.

 

Date placed can be looked at in 2 different ways:

1. The date that a geocache was first placed with the submitted listing using the coordinates

2. The date a specific container was hidden at the coordinates

 

I think most of us consider the first to be the case with geocache placements. When you place "dibs" on a site, that is the date a cache was placed. Just because you change a container it doesn't mean that it isn't the same cache listing, with a certain creation date.

 

Now, if you want to go down the path of being argumentative, when you assign another factor to the situation, such as an assigned "value" of a cache (e.g. "oldest active", etc.), the placement date becomes contentious. However, so long as you can remove arbitrary "value" assignments, the "date placed" is the date that a specific cache listing occupied the coordinates.

 

If a cache changes significantly (moved far enough that it requires a new listing, changed from a traditional to a multi or puzzle, etc.), then it is more easily accepted as a change of hide date.

 

Anyhow, I've always looked at the date I put for hide date for my caches as the date that I first put that specific cache listing at those coordinates. As cache maintenance can involve replacement of wet logbooks, or even container replacement, I don't see how a new container replacing a muggled container would require a new hide date. The guidelines even allow for the same cache listing to change coordinates within a accepted range without listing a new cache.

[+funkymunkyzone]

There's a lot of mud throwing over this topic, but I'll chuck in my 2c...

 

If a cache hide changes slightly, causing the "need" for a 0.5 or even 1 star movement, I'll make the change if it's a cache with a low rating, and probably not with a cache with a high rating - my justification being that no one particularly cares about such a change in either. As in, a change to a low rated cache doesn't really affect anyone, certainly not anyone going after "rare" ratings, and a change to a high rated cache is usually not actually needed because people going for high rated caches are already equipped and prepared - I would find it very hard to believe, for example, that someone prepared for a T4 will turn back and give up because it ends up being T4.5!

 

If a cache hide, or its surroundings, change dramatically, like the extreme examples given further up this topic (a 10 mile hike turns into a 100 foot bush walk) then to me the whole experience of the cache, not just the tupperware box under the bush at the end but the whole experience, has changed significantly and warrants a new cache listing. It's all too easy to forget the every geocacher has a history of finds that they can go back and search through (I often go back to look at difficult or noteworthy caches I found in the past to see who has found them and what their experiences were like) and I'd feel a bit mean taking something away from their history, taking that difficult cache away and replacing it with something non-descript and simple.

 

Anyway, that aside, how about a CO who changes the rating on a cache arbitrarily by a small amount even though there was no change at all with the cache or cache experience, and knowing that it would upset a number of people that found that cache....?

[+OZ2CPU]

>Basing a challenge on something that is designed to be dynamic is just a bad idea

 

EXACTLY !!!

and that is simply WHY you must take a screenshoot of the matrix (or what ever else)

at the very time you log the challenge as prof..

if all 81 caches are changed the day after, I care less, my picture still stand af prof,

as what was the fact the sec I logged that darn challenge.

 

the challenge is not written like : you must pass, now and forever, and if caches are changed

you must find another and pass and re visit and re log this bad dynamic challenge.

 

---

 

as a side note, I only modify D/T the first few weeks a new cache is made,

if the logs indicate a change is prefered, I welcome D/T comments and recommendations by the first few visitors.

after that time, I dont change a thing on the cache page, no matter what other things out in nature change

then I just live with a bit wrong rated cache, like so many others..

Edited May 7, 2013 by OZ2CPU

[+Roman!]

Just because you change a container it doesn't mean that it isn't the same cache listing, with a certain creation date.

 

Groundspeak would beg to differ with you and that is why I neither have the APE souvenir nor the APE icon even though I was at the location signing a log book a few weeks after it was muggled and replaced, once the container was changed it was a new listing.