Rock Climbing

[+mending_wall]

What's with the lack of caches on rock climbs? A more specific question is "What is with the lack of caches that require any sort of technical gear, especially in the west?" Maybe I'm not running my pocket queries correctly, but I'm about to put an end to this nonsense.

 

Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree... you know, trying to appeal to a small base of cachers. But heck, time to start something (see below... a new era is born).

 

Any thoughts on why this isn't going down?

 

[+RIclimber]

What's with the lack of caches on rock climbs? A more specific question is "What is with the lack of caches that require any sort of technical gear, especially in the west?" Maybe I'm not running my pocket queries correctly, but I'm about to put an end to this nonsense.

 

Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree... you know, trying to appeal to a small base of cachers. But heck, time to start something (see below... a new era is born).

 

Any thoughts on why this isn't going down?

 

 

... because the first climber on the rock would steal the nut. I know, I've hidden some.

 

Edited March 22, 2013 by RIclimber

[+mending_wall]

Yeah that's certainly something I've thought of. I found this one as booty, so I figured, "what the heck?" Which brings me to the question as to whether or not they should be more remote. We will see..

[Nick - Cacher]

That would be so cool!

 

Although I'm not a member of any caving clubs, I went to a vertical cave training thing the other day. I rappelled and ascended for the first time in my life, and it was fun! Although the National Speleological Society says that geocaches for caves are not appropriate, with a few small exceptions, nothing says I couldn't put a cache on a cliff used as training (not actually inside a cave). Just as long as one gets permission from the property manager, it would be a blast! You just have to hide it just right, so muggle climbers on the cliff don't find it, but easy enough that a cacher doesn't get too physically tired looking for it, which could be dangerous if they're just hanging there for a very long time.

[+mending_wall]

That would be so cool!

 

Although I'm not a member of any caving clubs, I went to a vertical cave training thing the other day. I rappelled and ascended for the first time in my life, and it was fun! Although the National Speleological Society says that geocaches for caves are not appropriate, with a few small exceptions, nothing says I couldn't put a cache on a cliff used as training (not actually inside a cave). Just as long as one gets permission from the property manager, it would be a blast! You just have to hide it just right, so muggle climbers on the cliff don't find it, but easy enough that a cacher doesn't get too physically tired looking for it, which could be dangerous if they're just hanging there for a very long time.

 

I've certainly thought about caches in caves, as there are hundreds in Northern Utah. However, as you mentioned, this is a big no-no, as cavers are pretty quiet people. A geocache in a cave would most likely result in a lynching, though it would be fun, no doubt. With this concept, I struggle with providing a fun caching experience while not exposing a local secret (for example). That being said, there has to be a nice blend.

 

I am glad you are excited about it. If you do place some caches on cliff, let me know how it works out and how you go about doing it. Always looking to collaborate, you know..

[+Walts Hunting]

I hiked in Red Rock Canyon a couple of days ago and several of the caches had the climbing icon and the descriptions on others indicated what Class of climb it was.

 

I seem to recall from years ago there were some climbing ones in Joshua Tree

Edited March 22, 2013 by Walts Hunting

[+bflentje]

Because too many people here in the forums would whine about the perceived danger in climbing while geocaching?? Just a thought. I LOVE caches like that.

[+BlueDeuce]

When I explain this game I tell people that geocaching can be done when pushing a stroller or while scuba diving. I'll add rock-climbing to the list.

 

Around here, I think we only have a couple caches that you have to repel to get to.

 

bd

Edited March 22, 2013 by BlueDeuce

[+T.D.M.22]

Because too many people here in the forums would whine about the perceived danger in climbing while geocaching?? Just a thought. I LOVE caches like that.

 

It is more dangerous to go climbing while you are geocaching.....Just tell them to go rock climbing and find any caches that happen to be along the route

[+Sharks-N-Beans]

I wish we had some rock terrain here. We pretty much substitute trees. I can see where there would be more rock muggles than tree muggles. If it wasn't to grab a cache, I'm not sure how many folks would climb 50' up a tree for the view (although I know a few who do). That said, I would think if it was identified as a GeoCache, most folks who are serious enough about climbing to have the gear would respect the game.

[Nick - Cacher]

Because too many people here in the forums would whine about the perceived danger in climbing while geocaching?? Just a thought. I LOVE caches like that.

 

If someone rates the terrain for their cache appropriately, then I don't see how it could be seen too much of a problem, nor liability. It's like they were warned beforehand when the terrain rating is appropriate.

 

I know in the guidelines it says 5 stars if specialized equipment is needed (ex. scuba gear). If we rate it 4 1/2 stars for easy rappelling, and 5 for difficult rappelling, and explain you need the gear, I can't see how anyone could sue you and win if their family member dies looking for the cache.

[+bflentje]

Because too many people here in the forums would whine about the perceived danger in climbing while geocaching?? Just a thought. I LOVE caches like that.

 

If someone rates the terrain for their cache appropriately, then I don't see how it could be seen too much of a problem, nor liability. It's like they were warned beforehand when the terrain rating is appropriate.

 

I know in the guidelines it says 5 stars if specialized equipment is needed (ex. scuba gear). If we rate it 4 1/2 stars for easy rappelling, and 5 for difficult rappelling, and explain you need the gear, I can't see how anyone could sue you and win if their family member dies looking for the cache.

 

You're preaching to the choir.. I'm on your side.

[+cerberus1]

OP, possible you're confusing climbing with rappelling or abseiling (not sure how you're searching)?

I'd bet that there's more "rope use" hides than you can imagine.

Like sharks-n-beans, there's more than twice that in rope use (limb, pure vertical climb) tree hides and double that in limb-climbing hides.

- You could stay busy a long time...

 

I'm in between now, having worn out my fifth rope. At 2-500 bucks a pop for rope alone, the hobby ain't cheap.

So far my highest tree limb hide is 52', abseiling cliff hide at 82' and only 31' for an actual rock climb hide (the most dangerous hide I've done).

- The reason I ask if you're confused with the term.

Edited March 23, 2013 by cerberus1

[+mending_wall]

OP, possible you're confusing climbing with rappelling or abseiling (not sure how you're searching)?

I'd bet that there's more "rope use" hides than you can imagine.

Like sharks-n-beans, there's more than twice that in rope use (limb, pure vertical climb) tree hides and double that in limb-climbing hides.

- You could stay busy a long time...

 

I'm in between now, having worn out my fifth rope. At 4-600 bucks a pop for rope alone, the hobby ain't cheap.

So far my highest tree limb hide is 52', abseiling cliff hide at 82' and only 31' for an actual rock climb hide (the most dangerous hide I've done).

- The reason I ask if you're confused with the term.

 

Sorry, not confusing climbing with rappelling, and wherever you are buying your ropes, you are getting ripped off.

[+cerberus1]

Sorry, not confusing climbing with rappelling, and wherever you are buying your ropes, you are getting ripped off.

Yeah, noticed I wrote that and changed it a bit later.

- Then you're correct, there are far fewer climbing hides.

The subject seemed to veer towards reppelling and I assumed incorrectly.

[7rxc]

That would be so cool!

 

Although I'm not a member of any caving clubs, I went to a vertical cave training thing the other day. I rappelled and ascended for the first time in my life, and it was fun! Although the National Speleological Society says that geocaches for caves are not appropriate, with a few small exceptions, nothing says I couldn't put a cache on a cliff used as training (not actually inside a cave). Just as long as one gets permission from the property manager, it would be a blast! You just have to hide it just right, so muggle climbers on the cliff don't find it, but easy enough that a cacher doesn't get too physically tired looking for it, which could be dangerous if they're just hanging there for a very long time.

Not wanting to dampen your enthusiasm... however, taking a one or two day training session in almost any activity doesn't in anyway make one an expert. You are now at the point of starting to learn the.. er.. ropes.

Most courses gloss over the rigging and focus on the how to of going down and then up. They talk about some of the problems involved, sometimes. Rigging is usually taught separately and takes a while to aborb beyond the basics. You might be able to rig a simple site or not. But I will assure you that it is not as easy as it looks at first glance. And that is just the rappel. One big question is how well can you execute emergency procedures when things go wrong. That goes for ascending as well as rappelling. Just take the time to get the whole picture and give the rescue people a break. I remember a case where the local fire department had taken a weekend Cave Rescue course and then soon tried to do one themselves... not good, since several of them had to be rescued themselves (fortunately not seriously at all, just embarrassing) simply because they didn't stop to think the process through completely. Good people and they went to a lot more training sessions when they realized that having one or two new skills wasn't enough. The environment alone was quite different to what they were used to for one thing. So keep training and thinking about it, but do that first please.

 

Doug 7rxc

[GOF and Bacall]

I wonder what the percentage of cacher that have the gear and know how to actually do a technical climb is? How does that compare to the percentage of caches that require such a climb? I suspect that the numbers, or lack there of, are related.

[+simpjkee]

I don't have climbing gear and have never done this kind of climbing. I now of a couple like this, but never attempted them. At some point I'd like to learn though. I completely support the OP in placing more caches like this, but I'd prefer something a little bigger than the micro pictured.

[+wvmarle]

I've certainly thought about caches in caves, as there are hundreds in Northern Utah. However, as you mentioned, this is a big no-no, as cavers are pretty quiet people. A geocache in a cave would most likely result in a lynching, though it would be fun, no doubt. With this concept, I struggle with providing a fun caching experience while not exposing a local secret (for example). That being said, there has to be a nice blend.

One of the reasons I like geocaching is because it does expose those local secrets, those little places that are quite interesting but so much off the beaten track you'll never find them in a travel guide.

 

Though in case of caves I can imagine safety is an issue.

[+Manville Possum]

Yeah that's certainly something I've thought of. I found this one as booty, so I figured, "what the heck?" Which brings me to the question as to whether or not they should be more remote. We will see..

I have a 5/5 listing that requires rock climbing. It's in a remote area and gets muggled often. I recently replaced the geocache before the snakes start moving about, and waymarked the site as a scenic overlook.

[+Sharks-N-Beans]

Yeah that's certainly something I've thought of. I found this one as booty, so I figured, "what the heck?" Which brings me to the question as to whether or not they should be more remote. We will see..

I have a 5/5 listing that requires rock climbing. It's in a remote area and gets muggled often. I recently replaced the geocache before the snakes start moving about, and waymarked the site as a scenic overlook.

I wouldn't expect a 5T to get visited often let alone muggled often. Can you get to it w/o equipment?

[+Manville Possum]

Yeah that's certainly something I've thought of. I found this one as booty, so I figured, "what the heck?" Which brings me to the question as to whether or not they should be more remote. We will see..

I have a 5/5 listing that requires rock climbing. It's in a remote area and gets muggled often. I recently replaced the geocache before the snakes start moving about, and waymarked the site as a scenic overlook.

I wouldn't expect a 5T to get visited often let alone muggled often. Can you get to it w/o equipment?

I can get to it without equipment, but it's a risk. I feel safer with a harness. The site gets lot's of visits for the overlook, but most don't venture into the rock fissure. It's about a 90 foot drop if you slip, and I almost placed my hand on a copperhead reaching for a hand hold climbing up from the bottom once.

[+mending_wall]

Interesting. This one only goes at 2D, 5T and only 5 due to ropes. In your case, it sounds easily accessible without a rope or am I still mistaken?

[+Sharks-N-Beans]

Interesting. This one only goes at 2D, 5T and only 5 due to ropes. In your case, it sounds easily accessible without a rope or am I still mistaken?

Was there supposed to be a link here?...Which one?

[+mending_wall]

I'm talking about the cache in the original post. GC4846X

[+gebu]

There are about a dozen climbing caches in my area.

The hiding places are pretty much the same as at ground level - rockclefts, insuspicous rock piles - the cacheboxes are sometimes secured with a short rope.

Good spoiler photos and descriptions of the hidingplace are key - I don't want to search around in dangerous terrain or spend more time searching then climbing.

 

One of mine: http://coord.info/GC14H1D it's a cache in a popular climbing area - found about 5-10 times a year, my caches in the 'real' mountains don't get as many finds.

[Nick - Cacher]

Not wanting to dampen your enthusiasm... however, taking a one or two day training session in almost any activity doesn't in anyway make one an expert. You are now at the point of starting to learn the.. er.. ropes.

Most courses gloss over the rigging and focus on the how to of going down and then up. They talk about some of the problems involved, sometimes. Rigging is usually taught separately and takes a while to aborb beyond the basics. You might be able to rig a simple site or not. But I will assure you that it is not as easy as it looks at first glance. And that is just the rappel. One big question is how well can you execute emergency procedures when things go wrong. That goes for ascending as well as rappelling. Just take the time to get the whole picture and give the rescue people a break. I remember a case where the local fire department had taken a weekend Cave Rescue course and then soon tried to do one themselves... not good, since several of them had to be rescued themselves (fortunately not seriously at all, just embarrassing) simply because they didn't stop to think the process through completely. Good people and they went to a lot more training sessions when they realized that having one or two new skills wasn't enough. The environment alone was quite different to what they were used to for one thing. So keep training and thinking about it, but do that first please.

 

Doug 7rxc

 

I think there was a misunderstanding. Rather than suggesting I'm an expert now and going to rappel in all these areas all by myself, I was thinking I could possibly place a cache the next time I take part in a training session (as long as it's not in an actual cave, but on some cliff).

 

The only thing I'd be concerned about, even if I do get permission from the property manager, if cavers see me placing a geocache on a cliff used for training, they may also get the wrong impression that I may try doing the same when they later take me to a real cave. Naturally they don't want the location of a cave to be given away to the public. I wouldn't want them to get that wrong impression, because I would want to be taken to caves. I was just entertaining the idea of placing on a rock cliff, and thinking about how I would do it.

[+mending_wall]

You are on to something. The best thing is to be open with the local community and others who recreate in the area. And I say you should go for it! I have made my way from not knowing anything about climbing to doing big wall, overnight climbs just by learning through trial and error. Some don't prefer that method, though. Only you understand your strengths and weaknesses, but I say go for it.

[+fuzziebear3]

Because too many people here in the forums would whine about the perceived danger in climbing while geocaching?? Just a thought. I LOVE caches like that.

 

If someone rates the terrain for their cache appropriately, then I don't see how it could be seen too much of a problem, nor liability. It's like they were warned beforehand when the terrain rating is appropriate.

 

I know in the guidelines it says 5 stars if specialized equipment is needed (ex. scuba gear). If we rate it 4 1/2 stars for easy rappelling, and 5 for difficult rappelling, and explain you need the gear, I can't see how anyone could sue you and win if their family member dies looking for the cache.

 

Even 'easy rappelling' requires special equipment, it still deserves the 5 terrain rating. You can note on the cache page that it is an easy rappel or a difficult one.

[+mending_wall]

Is there such a thing as a hard rappel?

[Nick - Cacher]

Even 'easy rappelling' requires special equipment, it still deserves the 5 terrain rating. You can note on the cache page that it is an easy rappel or a difficult one.

 

I might be mistaken, but I believe in the geocaching guidelines it says you can use a 1/2 star rating leeway, if you believe the terrain may be easier or more difficult than what the rating system tells you to do. That's why I was suggesting 4 1/2 ratings in addition to the 5 star for rappelling, based on how difficult it could be (a short simple rappel, versus a long one with possible loose falling rocks).

 

As far as the half star rating system, you've probably noticed many light post caches are rated 1 1/2 stars. They say 1 star means handicap accessible, 2 means little kids can do it. Many see LP caches as maybe not appropriate for wheelchairs if you have to go up over the curb, but definitely much easier than a 2 star cache, so they use a 1 1/2 terrain rating.

[+Sharks-N-Beans]

Even 'easy rappelling' requires special equipment, it still deserves the 5 terrain rating. You can note on the cache page that it is an easy rappel or a difficult one.

 

I might be mistaken, but I believe in the geocaching guidelines it says you can use a 1/2 star rating leeway, if you believe the terrain may be easier or more difficult than what the rating system tells you to do. That's why I was suggesting 4 1/2 ratings in addition to the 5 star for rappelling, based on how difficult it could be (a short simple rappel, versus a long one with possible loose falling rocks).

 

As far as the half star rating system, you've probably noticed many light post caches are rated 1 1/2 stars. They say 1 star means handicap accessible, 2 means little kids can do it. Many see LP caches as maybe not appropriate for wheelchairs if you have to go up over the curb, but definitely much easier than a 2 star cache, so they use a 1 1/2 terrain rating.

 

If you have to rappel to get to a cache, no matter how simple, it is a 5T. Rigging is not standard cache bag equipment (like a tweezers).

[+CanadianRockies]

If you have to rappel to get to a cache, no matter how simple, it is a 5T.

I know lots of geocachers believe this, but it's simply not true.

 

Groundspeak's guidelines make it clear that both the terrain and difficulty ratings "are simply suggested ratings. Each cache owner can make decisions about the final ratings of our caches."

 

The guidelines state that "you alone are the best judge for rating your cache." And they point out, "One is the easiest. Five is the hardest."

 

If I was to hide a rappel cache, then I would assign it a "Climbing" attribute to indicate that special equipment is recommended. I then would use the terrain rating to indicate how easy or difficult that climb is, assuming people arrived properly prepared. If an inexperienced climber could reach the cache location without too much trouble, then I might assign it a T3 rating.

[+mending_wall]

Or, you could sandbag the rating and watch people complain (rock climbers do it all of the time).

Edited March 26, 2013 by mending_wall

[7rxc]

 

I think there was a misunderstanding. Rather than suggesting I'm an expert now and going to rappel in all these areas all by myself, I was thinking I could possibly place a cache the next time I take part in a training session (as long as it's not in an actual cave, but on some cliff).

 

The only thing I'd be concerned about, even if I do get permission from the property manager, if cavers see me placing a geocache on a cliff used for training, they may also get the wrong impression that I may try doing the same when they later take me to a real cave. Naturally they don't want the location of a cave to be given away to the public. I wouldn't want them to get that wrong impression, because I would want to be taken to caves. I was just entertaining the idea of placing on a rock cliff, and thinking about how I would do it.

 

Sorry, wasn't picking on you as I said right off in my post... Typing has a way of changing the feel regardless, doesn't it? My point was that people in general tend to take a course and head out after buying gear and get themselves into a bind... I know well, because I often have to go and get them out of it. Not too active any more in caves, but I was. Still active in SAR. So... learn to do it and do it well and get out there and hide caches if you like. I'd go for one or more here... in fact I had to use my vertical gear to get one on a basketball hoop support... easier than carrying a ladder on a bus. Here is a hint, talk to the riggers in your group, they love to show off what they know... and with an open mind you can spot the ones who don't...

 

Doug 7rxc

[7rxc]

Or, you could sandbag the rating and watch people complain (rock climbers do it all of the time).

Hi First, YES there are some really hard (difficult and dangerous rappels) especially in caves...

and that does not count easy ones done incorrectly.

 

As for climb ratings. Like Geocaches, they should be as accurate and meaningful as possible. That said, I remember a friend and myself beating ourselves to exhaustion many years ago in the Shawangunks (NY)... the rating was only 5.7, and a type I usually do well on, my friend less. Learned a lot on that day however. My buddy picked the climb out based solely on the rating... not the fact that it was rated by Yvon Chouinard! Needless to say, 5.7 to him was NOT 5.7 to US. No fudging there for sure, we simply were overreaching. However, we did succeed once we adjusted our expectations upward.

 

Good on setting some climb caches. Of course they should be on climbs, not rappels, IMHO. Not that there is anything against a good rappel. Providing the rappers can get back up somehow.

 

Doug 7rxc

[+mending_wall]

As an update, I've placed 4 of these caches and, overall, people seem to be really interested in them. I've had a few locals contact me and ask for help in retrieving the caches. With that, things are mostly positive. However, there has been some concern from others about these caches taking up space that could otherwise be used for "more accessible" caches (e.g., park and grabs). Some things I have to consider when placing said caches are a) quality of rock for the climber, which involves being selective with rock faces to avoid rope cuts and rockfall, and generally this puts me near the road since those areas are so heavily used, and the maguire primrose. There was an incident in the early 90s where climbing in our area was almost shut down because of disregard for the plant... so I have to make sure I don't kill it for climbing AND geocaching. The difficulty here is to consider the voices of the locals while maintaining my vision of adding a fun and exciting challenge to the game. Just a thought...