Puzzle Cachers: Which is more important?

[+Ma & Pa]

I can understand wanting to take a poor location and add a little spice by making a puzzle to make up for it. But seriously, if you admit that it isn't worth a traditional...yikes.

 

bd

 

That is not what I meant. In fact I sorta meant the opposite. To me the puzzle is the most important part of a puzzle cache, not the location.

 

I create puzzle caches for those who like puzzles. After I have created a number of puzzles, I prepare the cache pages and then I find an area to hide the caches. When looking for an area I try to choose one that would not be interesting for traditionals.

 

I presently have over a dozen puzzle ideas ready but I have not gone further with them as I am running out of places to hide the puzzles.

 

I recently hid 43 caches on a trail near here. They were all traditionals as I wanted all cachers to have the chance to discover the trail, which would not happen if they were puzzles

 

PAul

 

There's nothing wrong with puzzles, but when I'm out in the field location does matter. Don't tell me the puzzle makes up for anything.

 

OK.

 

I already did.

 

I understand your point. Another cacher once told me that the cache is the reward for solving the puzzle and would like the location to be a suitable reward. However, I dont want to waste a nice spot on a puzzle, when not everyone does puzzles.

[+redsox_mark]

The best are when the hide and the puzzle line up in a neat way.

 

I agree with the above; my favourite puzzle caches are those which have a theme which continues into the field; and also a nice location and final cache.

 

To me, the hide is still important. That includes location and container.

 

I'm one who tends to avoid cache and dash type caches. One thing with puzzles is you often don't know in advance where they are hidden. So I find it particularly disappointing when I spend a long time on a puzzle and find it is in a supermarket car park for example.

[+dprovan]

Here in the San Francisco Bay area, a lot of cachers focus primarily on puzzle caches, and they tend to just drive around picking up puzzles. Those people have absolutely no problem with hides that are near parking and easy to get, so LPCs are fine for them. On the other hand, every puzzle that also has a good hide or a good location gets many additional accolades from everyone, including those puzzle fiends.

 

Personally, I prefer a puzzle final that gives me a good place to walk, but, at the same time, I can usually find a good place to walk even around a strip mall with a lot of lamp posts.

[+redsox_mark]

I understand some cachers like or even prefer park and grab caches. Maybe they can't walk far. And they might like puzzles. So a puzzle which leads to a easy find with limited walking would appeal.

 

I suppose the point I was trying to make is this. With a traditional cache, you can often tell quite a bit about it by where it is. You can see if it is in a parking lot or on the top of a mountain. With puzzle caches, often you can not (until you have solved it). You can get some hints from the Terrain rating and logs/photos though.

 

Where I have been "fooled" is puzzles where the posted coordinates are in an area with lots of footpaths, and I think it might be a nice walk; to find out the cache is actually attached to a rubbish bin in a parking area. If I worked hard to solve that puzzle I'll probably find the cache anyway; but I will feel some disappointment.

Edited February 4, 2013 by redsox_mark

[+L0ne.R]

I can understand wanting to take a poor location and add a little spice by making a puzzle to make up for it. But seriously, if you admit that it isn't worth a traditional...yikes.

bd

 

That is not what I meant. In fact I sorta meant the opposite. To me the puzzle is the most important part of a puzzle cache, not the location.

 

I love to hide letterbox hybrids with stamps that I carve myself. The stamp is the most important part of a letterbox, but it had never occurred to me to expect a Favorite vote (or a Blue Diamond on AtlasQuest -- if that were the case, every letterbox on AQ would be rewarded 5 stars) solely because I carved the stamp.

 

I enjoy collecting letterbox stamp images. If the box is behind the Loblaws delivery depot hanging in a tree, and has an intricate hand-carved stamp in it, I'll praise the workmanship of the stamp in the log, but I won't give it a favorite vote. The geocaching aspect falls short.

Edited February 4, 2013 by L0ne R

[+niraD]

I don't mind mundane cache locations. Sure, a beautiful location or an in-theme location adds to the puzzle cache experience, but some of my Favorites are great puzzles that lead to mundane cache locations.

 

Some of the puzzle cache owners around here (SF Bay area) have said that they don't want to take up a "good location for a traditional cache" with one of their puzzles. Others have said that they think the find should be pretty much automatic once someone has solved the puzzle. Both of these groups tend to hide their puzzle cache finals in mundane locations.

[kanchan]

I don't mind mundane cache locations. Sure, a beautiful location or an in-theme location adds to the puzzle cache experience, but some of my Favorites are great puzzles that lead to mundane cache locations.

 

Some of the puzzle cache owners around here (SF Bay area) have said that they don't want to take up a "good location for a traditional cache" with one of their puzzles. Others have said that they think the find should be pretty much automatic once someone has solved the puzzle. Both of these groups tend to hide their puzzle cache finals in mundane locations.

+1

[+K13]

<snip>

However, I dont want to waste a nice spot on a puzzle, when not everyone does puzzles.

 

So, do you only put your puzzle cache finals in crappy locations? To me, it's about the total caching experience. An interesting puzzle leading me to a LPC in the wallyworld parking lot is still a crappy cache location.

[+stijnhommes]

If a puzzle intrigues me, I often decide to solve it, even if I'm in no position to actually go and find the cache that goes with it.

However, if you are hoping to receive a favorite point, just a goog puzzle won't cut it with me. I want a location that ties the cache to the puzzle and/or a nice creative cache container.

[+Ma & Pa]

<snip>

However, I dont want to waste a nice spot on a puzzle, when not everyone does puzzles.

 

So, do you only put your puzzle cache finals in crappy locations? To me, it's about the total caching experience. An interesting puzzle leading me to a LPC in the wallyworld parking lot is still a crappy cache location.

 

Our area has a lot of caches so it is tough to find a location where I can place a bunch of puzzle caches. Wooded areas in industrial parks was a choice for some, and another time I put a series along an old road in the woods. When we visit our daughter in Ottawa, we hide a few puzzle caches in that area. On our last trip there we discovered a little known trail and was able to place 6.

[+hzoi]

The hide is always a part of the cache experience. So when a final is just a film can or Altoids tin under a lamp skirt or in a guardrail, yeah, I'm a little disappointed, and yeah, it does diminish the experience for me.

 

Same goes for challenge caches. I recently qualified for two challenge caches. Since I started out with the intention of qualifying for both challenges, they basically took me to the same places. So my caching experience was just about identical while qualifying for the two challenges. The owner of the first challenge put the cache in a beautiful area, 4.5 miles down the trail. The owner of the second challenge put it behind his mailbox. It felt like much more of an experience (and felt a heck of a lot more satisfying) signing the first log than the second.

[+simpjkee]

From a finder's perspective:

 

Years ago (5), I would have said that the puzzle was number one and I'd prefer the cache to be an LPC or guardrail because it is the puzzle that is the challenge. Once solving the puzzle, I want my smiley. I'd hate to solve a tough puzzle and then not be able to find the cache. Today, I'd appreciate a cool container or nice location just because I've lost a lot of interest in looking at lamp posts and guardrails.

 

 

From a hiders perspective:

 

I have developed a little different view on it. It seems simply making a cache a puzzle cache lowers the number of finders. If I am placing a nice cool container or placing it at a nice quiet location, I might make it a puzzle just to lower the number of finders. In which case, it would be a puzzle and a cool container/nice location.

[+BlueDeuce]

From a finder's perspective:

 

Years ago (5), I would have said that the puzzle was number one and I'd prefer the cache to be an LPC or guardrail because it is the puzzle that is the challenge. Once solving the puzzle, I want my smiley. I'd hate to solve a tough puzzle and then not be able to find the cache. Today, I'd appreciate a cool container or nice location just because I've lost a lot of interest in looking at lamp posts and guardrails.

 

 

From a hiders perspective:

 

I have developed a little different view on it. It seems simply making a cache a puzzle cache lowers the number of finders. If I am placing a nice cool container or placing it at a nice quiet location, I might make it a puzzle just to lower the number of finders. In which case, it would be a puzzle and a cool container/nice location.

 

I can understand wanting to share a great location but you know, you can walk me down a wooded trail and there's probably a log or stump every .10 open for an ammocan.

Edited February 5, 2013 by BlueDeuce

[+simpjkee]

From a finder's perspective:

 

Years ago (5), I would have said that the puzzle was number one and I'd prefer the cache to be an LPC or guardrail because it is the puzzle that is the challenge. Once solving the puzzle, I want my smiley. I'd hate to solve a tough puzzle and then not be able to find the cache. Today, I'd appreciate a cool container or nice location just because I've lost a lot of interest in looking at lamp posts and guardrails.

 

 

From a hiders perspective:

 

I have developed a little different view on it. It seems simply making a cache a puzzle cache lowers the number of finders. If I am placing a nice cool container or placing it at a nice quiet location, I might make it a puzzle just to lower the number of finders. In which case, it would be a puzzle and a cool container/nice location.

 

I can understand wanting to share a great location but you know, you can walk me down a wooded trail and there's probably a log or stump every .10 open for an ammocan.

 

I'm not sure how that relates to my post.

[+BlueDeuce]

From a finder's perspective:

 

Years ago (5), I would have said that the puzzle was number one and I'd prefer the cache to be an LPC or guardrail because it is the puzzle that is the challenge. Once solving the puzzle, I want my smiley. I'd hate to solve a tough puzzle and then not be able to find the cache. Today, I'd appreciate a cool container or nice location just because I've lost a lot of interest in looking at lamp posts and guardrails.

 

 

From a hiders perspective:

 

I have developed a little different view on it. It seems simply making a cache a puzzle cache lowers the number of finders. If I am placing a nice cool container or placing it at a nice quiet location, I might make it a puzzle just to lower the number of finders. In which case, it would be a puzzle and a cool container/nice location.

 

I can understand wanting to share a great location but you know, you can walk me down a wooded trail and there's probably a log or stump every .10 open for an ammocan.

 

I'm not sure how that relates to my post.

 

You can have a puzzle cache and a location that doesn't require any sort of concern other than offering it up to be found. Not limiting a place, not protecting a place.

Edited February 5, 2013 by BlueDeuce

[+tweetiepy]

I'm hooooOOOOOooorible at solving puzzles - our area is saturated with puzzle caches - we have about 1% mutis, 40% traditionals and 61% puzzles (This %age error is to show you how bad I am at puzzles and at the math involved in solving them)

 

I've had to contact the COs on many puzzles since the puzzles around here use source codes (not sure what I'm looking for in all that gibberish & when I do find something, it needs converting) & conversions from one base to another (numbers come in bases??? never heard of that before.)

 

I would like to have some manual figuring out to do on how to extract the cache itself, not how to find it by doing some conversions but how to open the container or figure out what I need to do to get the container.

 

I always seem to use the solution on puzzles in books. But manually I'm pretty good at figuring stuff out. Unfortunately there are hardly any of those kinds of puzzles nearby - most are conversions as I said and I never know what the clues mean either in those cases. If I can check google or wiki I'm not bad, but if I need to do more informatically challenging stuff, I can't figure it out.

 

Honestly, when I figure a puzzle out, I'm just glad that there's a cache where ever I end up...

[+Crow-T-Robot]

I'm hooooOOOOOooorible at solving puzzles - our area is saturated with puzzle caches - we have about 1% mutis, 40% traditionals and 61% puzzles (This %age error is to show you how bad I am at puzzles and at the math involved in solving them)

 

I've had to contact the COs on many puzzles since the puzzles around here use source codes (not sure what I'm looking for in all that gibberish & when I do find something, it needs converting) & conversions from one base to another (numbers come in bases??? never heard of that before.)

 

I would like to have some manual figuring out to do on how to extract the cache itself, not how to find it by doing some conversions but how to open the container or figure out what I need to do to get the container.

 

I always seem to use the solution on puzzles in books. But manually I'm pretty good at figuring stuff out. Unfortunately there are hardly any of those kinds of puzzles nearby - most are conversions as I said and I never know what the clues mean either in those cases. If I can check google or wiki I'm not bad, but if I need to do more informatically challenging stuff, I can't figure it out.

 

Honestly, when I figure a puzzle out, I'm just glad that there's a cache where ever I end up...

 

This cache is a good puzzle tutorial. It's not all encompassing, by any means, but it will give you some good pointers for many of the puzzle caches you'll encounter.

[+niraD]

I'm hooooOOOOOooorible at solving puzzles - our area is saturated with puzzle caches - we have about 1% mutis, 40% traditionals and 61% puzzles (This %age error is to show you how bad I am at puzzles and at the math involved in solving them)

This cache is a good puzzle tutorial. It's not all encompassing, by any means, but it will give you some good pointers for many of the puzzle caches you'll encounter.

And here are some additional puzzle tips that I've posted before:

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=305890&view=findpost&p=5183460

</offtopic>

[+briansnat]

To me a challenging puzzle cache with lousy location is still a lousy cache.

[Clan Riffster]

I'm constantly trying to improve my puzzle caches, spending some significant time constructing them. For me, a well thought out puzzle deserves a favorite point, even if the final is under a lamp post skirt or stuck on some guard rail.

Gotta flex my entitlement muscles a bit...

For me, the 'quality' of a cache is kind of a fluid concept, based upon several different factors.

In order of importance, for me, these are as follows:

 

Location: If you bring me to what I consider to be a crappy location, I will walk away disappointed. With traditional caches, and modern software, this occurs less often, as I can generally look at my map and get an idea if it is a scenic patch of woods or 500 acres of exhaust fume laden blacktop, bristling with soccer moms in SUVs.

 

Container: Only slightly less important than the location is the quality of the container. You'll note I said nothing about size, as they are not really related. There are a few micro sized containers which are able to protect their contents, such as preforms, match safes and true Bison Designs tubes. But there are far more crappy containers in this size class, to include Altoids tins, black & gray film cans, baby ziplocks, hide-a-keys, fake bison tubes, etc. bring me to a crappy container, and I will be disappointed.

 

Cache page: If your cache page has less text than is tattooed on Rosie O'Donnell's backside, I'll likely assume you lack the creativity necessary to hide a cache which might appeal to me. Since the topic is puzzles, this generally isn't an issue, though lameness can still apply. Give me a creative puzzle, and I will enjoy it, even if I'm not bright enough to solve it. Give me yet another cheesy Sudoku puzzle, and I'll probably pass.

 

Cache size: Last but not least, for me, is the cache size. If all other things are equal, (location/quality/write up), I prefer a cache at least big enough to hold a pocket size spiral notebook, some swag and most travel bugs. Whilst I almost never trade, I do enjoy pawing through the swag, feeding my inner child. Also, I like to drop signature items, and caches on the smaller end of the scale won't hold these very well. Further, I love sitting down and reading through the logbook before telling my tale. A cache only big enough to hold a slip of paper will not carry any hidden tales. There are many locations which do not lend themselves to larger caches, so as long as the other elements are met, I will likely love even the tiniest cache.

 

I will say that I hold a special angst in my heart for those who create mind blowing puzzles, only to bring me to a crappy location. Contempt is not strong enough to describe my feelings toward those folks.

 

Just my $0.02

[Clan Riffster]

However, I dont want to waste a nice spot on a puzzle

This is a mentality I've never been able to wrap my head around.

If you place a puzzle at an awesome location, and only 20% of the caching community find it, how is that wasteful?

Those who do find it will love it a lot more than if you had placed your final at some crappy parking lot.

Your method would subject those folks who are bright enough, and inclined toward finding puzzles, to only lame locations.

That's the real waste.

[+Packanack]

 

The photo is the final location of a Harry Dolphin/Andy Bear puzzle, it really is spectacular on site.

I started doing some puzzles in the fall after returning from vacation on Cape Cod, I was somewhat disappointed in the offerings up there this year. Unimaginative nanos, obviously soft coording and poorly maintained. While it was fun to pick up a few numbers and ride the bike to find them, the overall was somewhat mediocre. On returning home I decided to dive into some Harry Dolphin/Andy Bear puzzle caches which are regarded as being among the best local puzzles. Most local eschew them entirely due to the difficulty anc the mental gymnastics involved. But they grow on you and you get a great sense of satisfaction when you get the OK from geochecker. They are varied and the final locations are almost universally spectacular. I have also gotten into some PMolan puzzles of late and his caches along with Dolphin/Bear cause me to shake my head and marvel at their creative juices. It is a whole new game.

Edited February 6, 2013 by Packanack

[kanchan]

If there are plenty of great locations left for new placements, I don't see why puzzles have to be placed in parking lots. But there are other areas where the caches are really saturated. My area is one of those. It's really hard to find a place where a new cache can be hidden (due to the saturation rule). IMO, some puzzles are great enough to be published even if it's a quick drive up in a parking lot. What's good in Geocaching is that nobody has to find all hides. If you don't like parking lot hides, you can always ignore them.

[+StarBrand]

For me - I am terrible at puzzles and the few I have solved required some amount of hints and help. Having said that - the 3 most important aspect of any and all caches are: location, location, location. Take me somewhere [interesting, cool, out of the way, little known, historical, special to you, beautiful, scenic] - or just tell me why you want me to go there - some reason other than a cache container.

[kanchan]

Also, parking lot hides could sometimes be appreciated when someone needs a find on a rainy day for a challenge or something. Personally, I appreciate diversity of Geocaches. I don't think all hides have to be in the park.

[+xxxsparkmanxxx]

Also, parking lot hides could sometimes be appreciated when someone needs a find on a rainy day for a challenge or something. Personally, I appreciate diversity of Geocaches. I don't think all hides have to be in the park.

I agree! Another thing to consider is where the final is. If it is a great spot with a great view and a nice hike in and out, why would you limit the number of cachers who would go up there by making it a puzzle? I like to solve puzzles, but I know a lot of cachers who don't. I know someone will read this and say something like "it's their choice not to solve the puzzle, find the cache and enjoy the view". You would be correct, but in the interest of good will, I personally wouldn't do that to someone just because they choose not to solve puzzles. Just saying.

Edited February 7, 2013 by xxxsparkmanxxx

[+hzoi]

If it is a great spot with a great view and a nice hike in and out, why would you limit the number of cachers who would go up there by making it a puzzle?

I don't think that we're at any risk of having puzzle caches take over the world's scenic vistas, so I wouldn't use this to justify a parking lot final to a puzzle cache.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

If there are plenty of great locations left for new placements, I don't see why puzzles have to be placed in parking lots. But there are other areas where the caches are really saturated. My area is one of those. It's really hard to find a place where a new cache can be hidden (due to the saturation rule). IMO, some puzzles are great enough to be published even if it's a quick drive up in a parking lot. What's good in Geocaching is that nobody has to find all hides. If you don't like parking lot hides, you can always ignore them.

 

Two thoughts here. If an area is already really saturated, does it really need another cache? There have been lots of posts from people describing their area is really saturated and typically when looking at a map of the area I find that most caches are places right along side roads and there is often open green space available if people took the time to hide a cache a bit off the road, especially at the fringes of the saturated area. I'm somewhat familiar with the location listed in your profile and know there's a lot of green space located west of 280, probably not more than a 1/2 hour drive from the center of your city.

 

I disagree that you can "always ignore" parking lot hides. First of all, you're not going to know if it's a parking lot hide on a mystery/unknown until you've solved the puzzle (unless you mention it in the cache listing). Sometimes, if you know the final coordinates, it's not always obvious if it's in a parking lot. A few years ago I was staying at a hotel a couple of hours from home and noticed that there was a cache nearby. I walked out the back of the hotel, crossed a footbridge over a pretty creek, walked through a series of small business park parking lots that were lined with a lot of older growth trees until I came out to a road. I cross the same creek (over a less pretty bridge) the saw a trail alongside a driveway the appeared to lead toward the cache. I walked up the trail, which ended at another small parking lot and was within 100' from the cache when I noticed that it was a LPC at the drive-thru of a well known breakfast pastry business. It was, for the most part, a nice walk but I probably wouldn't have taken it if I would have known it was going to take me to a lamp post in a parking lot.

[kanchan]

Two thoughts here. If an area is already really saturated, does it really need another cache?

Why not? There are so many puzzlers here who enjoy great puzzles.

 

I'm somewhat familiar with the location listed in your profile and know there's a lot of green space located west of 280, probably not more than a 1/2 hour drive from the center of your city.

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid that you don't know well enough about the area. Most of these empty green areas are part of the Golden Gate National Recreation Area, where a cache placement is not allowed.

[+briansnat]

Also, parking lot hides could sometimes be appreciated when someone needs a find on a rainy day for a challenge or something. Personally, I appreciate diversity of Geocaches. I don't think all hides have to be in the park.

 

I agree, but in a lot of areas the question is do all caches have to be in parking lots?

[+DragonsWest]

Two thoughts here. If an area is already really saturated, does it really need another cache?

Why not? There are so many puzzlers here who enjoy great puzzles.

 

I'm somewhat familiar with the location listed in your profile and know there's a lot of green space located west of 280, probably not more than a 1/2 hour drive from the center of your city.

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid that you don't know well enough about the area. Most of these empty green areas are part of the Golden Gate National Recreation Area, where a cache placement is not allowed.

 

Allowed if it is a Virtual (which Groundspeak has resisted allowing to return) or Earthcache, not many options there for puzzles.

 

As my puzzles aren't found often I tend to squirrel them away in out of the way places with good camo, so they will likely survive the long droughts between finds. Saves me from having to do maintenance when someone does go for the final and I haven't had much recent feedback.

[kanchan]

Also, parking lot hides could sometimes be appreciated when someone needs a find on a rainy day for a challenge or something. Personally, I appreciate diversity of Geocaches. I don't think all hides have to be in the park.

 

I agree, but in a lot of areas the question is do all caches have to be in parking lots?

Did I ever say all caches have to be in parking lots? I actually said I would appreciate diversity of Geocaches.

[Clan Riffster]

IMO, some puzzles are great enough to be published even if it's a quick drive up in a parking lot. What's good in Geocaching is that nobody has to find all hides. If you don't like parking lot hides, you can always ignore them.

IMO, the better a puzzle is, the less it deserves some ignoble hiding spot.

Give me some crappy Sudoku puzzle, and I wouldn't be bothered if it was behind a Burger King.

But give me a truly stellar puzzle, and anything less than a quality GZ is going to be a let down.

As to the, "If you don't like em" silliness, that might work for traditionals, where, with the right software, I can see if it's in a parking lot, that is not always evident with a puzzle. A quality puzzle often represents several days of skull sweat, before I can check to see where GZ is. Though I will apply an adaptation of your rule. If I discover that a puzzle hider has a propensity for crappy GZs, I will place their hides on my ignore list.

 

If it is a great spot with a great view and a nice hike in and out, why would you limit the number of cachers who would go up there by making it a puzzle?

Sorry. This sounds too much like, "Because you've taken three days to solve my puzzle, I'm going to punish you by bringing you to a soggy log film can behind a Wally World dumpster".

[+Harry Dolphin]

 

The photo is the final location of a Harry Dolphin/Andy Bear puzzle, it really is spectacular on site.

I started doing some puzzles in the fall after returning from vacation on Cape Cod, I was somewhat disappointed in the offerings up there this year. Unimaginative nanos, obviously soft coording and poorly maintained. While it was fun to pick up a few numbers and ride the bike to find them, the overall was somewhat mediocre. On returning home I decided to dive into some Harry Dolphin/Andy Bear puzzle caches which are regarded as being among the best local puzzles. Most local eschew them entirely due to the difficulty anc the mental gymnastics involved. But they grow on you and you get a great sense of satisfaction when you get the OK from geochecker. They are varied and the final locations are almost universally spectacular. I have also gotten into some PMolan puzzles of late and his caches along with Dolphin/Bear cause me to shake my head and marvel at their creative juices. It is a whole new game.

 

Thank you kind sir (before you go screaming into the night, remember to ignore double stars). Dolphin/Bear work as a team. AB is the QC department. Dolphin has a mind that swirls in bizarre fashion. ABQC checks coords, and approves locations, on many puzzle caches. (Ignore the archived lamp post cache at Wally World, that did not have a lamp post skirt. That was mant to be a satire.)

I really wanted to hide a cache named 'Sal', which would have been 50 miles on the Morris Canal. But ABQC would not approve the location, since it was in a rather ugly area, with a homeless camp nearby. (But historically interesting!!!) Now it is too close to a parking lot cache at the ShopRite of Rockaway. Oh, well.

We work as a team. And perhaps that is what is needed. ABQC assures that the coords are good, and that the location is intersting. But, despite what so many people say, it is not that difficult to come up with ineresting locations. Even in New Jersey!

Yes, I do find it a bit apalling that the local Fizzy Challenge (and another) were set out by an out-of-stater as micros in an urban park. Is that the best you can do?!?!?