Special Tool Required / requires very specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment

[+JL_HSTRE]

A "real" Difficulty 5 cache "requires very specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment". There is also the "Special Tool Required" attribute (henceforth "STR").

 

Night Caches (i.e. requires a flashlight) seem to be an accepted practice of not counting as D5 (and "Flashlight Required" is a separate attribute).

 

I have seen caches requiring a UV light or a Chirp compatible device (which also has a separate "Wireless Beacon Required" attribute) rated D5. I have heard of locked cache intended to have the lock picked, which would probably also be D5/STR.

 

What about caches requiring a magnet to retrieve? A multicache where at least one stage requires use of a mirror to read the coordinates? A cache that requires you have a battery to power a motor in the container (saw a video about this - one of the "Totally Tubular" series I think)? Are any/all of those D5/STR?

 

What other examples of "real" D5 and/or STR caches have you found or heard of existing? (Probably best not to name the cache or location for spoilers sake; just describe what was required.)

[+Bamilbis]

I think a BYOP should be a D2 at least.

[+HHD]

There is an evil monkey/evil duck that is on an islands and in a tree that has no branches for 16 feet up, it requires a ladder and at certain times of the year a boat and it is a 1/5

[+dfx]

I would consider some of those examples to be "special tools", especially the ones that don't have a matching other attribute. But I wouldn't consider them to be "specialized equipment".

[+niraD]

I don't think a magnet is D5-worthy specialized equipment by itself. Magnets are easy to obtain, and many people have magnets around the home. But a cache that requires a magnet could have a high difficulty rating, especially if there is no indication that a magnet is needed, or if the appropriate use of the magnet is hard to determine.

 

I've read mirror-image writing using a mobile device (PDA, GPSr, smartphone) that was turned off. And portable mirrors are easy to obtain, and many people have them around the home. I suppose it might be difficult to figure out that it's mirror-image writing, but I can't imagine it being that difficult to figure out that it's mirror-image writing.

 

Batteries are easy to obtain, and many geocachers carry extras. But I suppose that it might not be obvious that batteries are needed, or how the batteries need to be used. That could raise the difficulty rating.

[+briansnat]

To me special equipment means equipment that most people might not have ready access to AND requires some skill to use.

 

Examples of special equipment: climbing gear (rope harness, etc.), canoe or kayak, SCUBA gear

 

Examples of things that are not special equipment: flashlight, black light, magnet, tweezers, a bucket of water, ladder, screwdriver

[+dfx]

Examples of special equipment: climbing gear (rope harness, etc.), canoe or kayak, SCUBA gear

 

I thought those things make it a T5, not a D5

[+briansnat]

Examples of special equipment: climbing gear (rope harness, etc.), canoe or kayak, SCUBA gear

 

I thought those things make it a T5, not a D5

 

Yes, but they are examples of special equipment. I really can't think of anything that would effect the difficulty that I would classify as special equipment.

[knowschad]

The bottom line is, both difficulty and terrain ratings are subjective, even when used with a tool such as Clayjar's rating system. Use them as a guide, not as an absolute. What is a special tool to some might be a part of everyday life to another. Caches that "require" boats can be walked to during winter months in many parts of the country. Moreover, as has already been hinted at in this thread, the distinction between difficulty and terrain ratings get very fuzzy when referring to the higher end of the spectrum.

 

I guess, in my area, at least, a terrain rating of 5 means that you will probably have to return, once you have scoped the situation out, with a piece of equipment that you wouldn't likely carry with you on your normal caching run. A difficulty of 5, around here, probably means a very clever cache that is probably hidden in a way that you, or your caching buddies, likely have not encountered before.

 

But these are not only just guidelines, but very regional guidelines. Around here, if you need to load up a stepladder, the terrain might go to 5. Travel to the Black Hills in South Dakota, and you will probably need a climbing harness for a terrain 5.

[+CanadianRockies]

The bottom line is, both difficulty and terrain ratings are subjective, even when used with a tool such as Clayjar's rating system. Use them as a guide, not as an absolute.

+1

 

The Groundspeak recommendations for ratings point out that "these are simply suggested ratings. Each cache owner can make decisions about the final ratings of our caches."

 

Around here, many boat "required" cache owners tend to leap to the T5 rating, even if it is easy to wade or swim to the cache location. Meanwhile, most owners with caches that "require" 4WDs, snowshoes, UV lights, or special tools seem to rate them based on how difficult it is to reach these caches if you come prepared with the recommended equipment.

 

Personally, I find the latter rating method more helpful.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

 

What other examples of "real" D5 and/or STR caches have you found or heard of existing? (Probably best not to name the cache or location for spoilers sake; just describe what was required.)

 

I disagree with the assertion that specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment is a requirement for a "read" D5 rating. Sometimes a cache can be hidden so well that it's just very, very difficult to find. The Shelter series caches in Indianapolis come to mind. Last weekend I was searching for a cache in Buffalo that is rated a 5/4. Since I only found the first stage of this two part multi I don't know if it's overrated but I once found a 3.5D cache that was hidden in a similar manner as the first stage, and from all appearances at GZ finding the final stages is even harder. Since I didn't find the final I don't know if the terrain rating is correct either but there were lots of trees at GZ that were climbable.

[+Chokecherry]

The bottom line is, both difficulty and terrain ratings are subjective, even when used with a tool such as Clayjar's rating system. Use them as a guide, not as an absolute. What is a special tool to some might be a part of everyday life to another. Caches that "require" boats can be walked to during winter months in many parts of the country. Moreover, as has already been hinted at in this thread, the distinction between difficulty and terrain ratings get very fuzzy when referring to the higher end of the spectrum.

 

I guess, in my area, at least, a terrain rating of 5 means that you will probably have to return, once you have scoped the situation out, with a piece of equipment that you wouldn't likely carry with you on your normal caching run. A difficulty of 5, around here, probably means a very clever cache that is probably hidden in a way that you, or your caching buddies, likely have not encountered before.

 

But these are not only just guidelines, but very regional guidelines. Around here, if you need to load up a stepladder, the terrain might go to 5. Travel to the Black Hills in South Dakota, and you will probably need a climbing harness for a terrain 5.

 

We're kind of similar here. It's hit and miss with the caches on islands some rate them higher some not. And for the most part anything you can get to on an ATV here you can walk to. It bothers me on the other end of the spectrum when someone rates the caches they place on ATV as terrain 1 or 1.5 because they got there on an ATV but that's a different story and not super common.

 

If not other wised specified terrain and difficulty 5 caches here usually require some special tools or are just hard to get to and to find (usually requiring multiple trips etc.). But usually it includes a scoping out trip or some research online.

[+eusty]

What about multi's which cryptography and similar?

[+briansnat]

What about multi's which cryptography and similar?

 

It depends on the difficulty of the cryptography. If it's a simple cipher like ROT13 or something in that class the difficulty would be lower. If it's an extremely difficult to solve cipher it would mean a higher difficulty level.

[+CanadianRockies]

What about multi's which cryptography and similar?

A few people would look at Groundspeak's rating guidelines, decide that cryptography involves specialized knowledge/skills/equipment, and automatically rate these types of caches as D5.

 

Most puzzle creators, however, assume that most puzzle solvers already will be prepared to tackle many types of ciphers and prepared to research new ciphers. These owners will rate the cache difficulty on how difficult the solution is for people with that type of preparation. (Just like most UV-light caches will be rated based on the assumption that people come prepared with UV lights.)

Edited November 7, 2011 by CanadianRockies

[+Otis.Gore]

It's a personal thing though...

 

Me and my buddies once created a cache that we thought was a T4, because you had to climb through a hole in the ground and after that there was a 2m drop...but if someone small and tubby tried to do it, he wouldn't fit through the hole (neither would it be as easy for him to get back out as for us).

So he wrote we should have made it a T5.

 

On another occasion, to enter an abandoned building, the listing said we required climbing gear.

We though....what the heck, lets just try without...and it turned out that all we needed was a rope, because it was a descent of barely 4 metres...for us, thats a t4 max.

[Clan Riffster]

The bottom line is, both difficulty and terrain ratings are subjective

That. In days gone by, I would speak with owners who had caches that didn't match what I, in my hubris, thought the D/T rating should be. In every single instance, the owner felt completely justified in the ratings they selected. It took me a while, (I'm kinda dense that way), but eventually I realized that I was not the D/T police, and while I was perfectly free to my opinion, so are the rest of the cache owners.

 

If Vinny & Sue's PUC series suddenly changed to 1/1s, I wouldn't sweat it.

 

If a film can under a Burger King shrub was listed as a 5/5, I wouldn't sweat it.

 

Life is short...

 

I make mine as accurate as I can and don't worry about the others.

[+The Jester]

Examples of special equipment: climbing gear (rope harness, etc.), canoe or kayak, SCUBA gear

 

I thought those things make it a T5, not a D5

 

Yes, but they are examples of special equipment. I really can't think of anything that would effect the difficulty that I would classify as special equipment.

The one item(s?) I thought of was lockpicks - doesn't affect the terrian at all, but would make the difficulty something else... Of course, depending on the lock the difficulty may change (I even learned how to pick a lock with anti-pick tumblers. It blew the locksmith away, but him having a model with a clear side made it easy to learn how to defeat it.) but that's if you have and know how to use them. Without either, the difficulty would be a 6. []

 

ETA: Then there is the side-ward vs. pin/wafer tumbler locks - they use very different tools. Then there's the Ace lock (a very strange pick device) or the ... the list could go on.

Edited November 8, 2011 by The Jester

[+aurght]

I have scored a T5 and a couple of D5, but I would not have rated any of them that high. Like others have posted, it is up to the CO.

At my age I don't expect to ever score a 'real' 5.

I know of a puzzle maker who purposely underrates the D because so many searchers share answers that it would be an easy high D for the sharees.

[+Crow-T-Robot]

It bothers me on the other end of the spectrum when someone rates the caches they place on ATV as terrain 1 or 1.5 because they got there on an ATV but that's a different story and not super common.

I believe the D/T should be rated on how most cachers are going to attempt to find it. There are caches here that are a few miles hike along a trail but they allow snowmobiles during the winter months. Caching on a snowmobile would make those caches infinitely quicker to get to but most cachers are hiking to them...even in winter.

 

Terrain wise, at least around the east side of Wisconsin, I feel that a 4/4.5 star terrain is much more challenging than a 5-star. There are genuine (for Wisconsin, anyway) 5-star terrain caches here but most are rated at 5 stars because you need a boat/kayak. The 4 star terrains are the ones that are usually physically demanding. A boat might be "specialized equipment" but it's not very exhausting to ride in one to get to an island cache.

[+ras_oscar]

The only time I look at the d/t ratings is when I review my composite stats. I have never found a cache that requires special knowledge or tools. Of course, i filter on only traditionals, so perhaps that's why. Also, my finds count is kinda low.

[+briansnat]

Examples of special equipment: climbing gear (rope harness, etc.), canoe or kayak, SCUBA gear

 

I thought those things make it a T5, not a D5

 

Yes, but they are examples of special equipment. I really can't think of anything that would effect the difficulty that I would classify as special equipment.

The one item(s?) I thought of was lockpicks - doesn't affect the terrian at all, but would make the difficulty something else... Of course, depending on the lock the difficulty may change (I even learned how to pick a lock with anti-pick tumblers. It blew the locksmith away, but him having a model with a clear side made it easy to learn how to defeat it.) but that's if you have and know how to use them. Without either, the difficulty would be a 6. []

 

ETA: Then there is the side-ward vs. pin/wafer tumbler locks - they use very different tools. Then there's the Ace lock (a very strange pick device) or the ... the list could go on.

 

There's one. Lock picking tools and skills would definitely warrant a D5

Edited November 8, 2011 by briansnat

[+jellis]

Examples of things that are not special equipment: flashlight, black light, magnet, tweezers, a bucket of water, ladder, screwdriver

You mean with all the stuff in my SUV I now have to start carrying a ladder as generic tool?

[+briansnat]

Examples of things that are not special equipment: flashlight, black light, magnet, tweezers, a bucket of water, ladder, screwdriver

You mean with all the stuff in my SUV I now have to start carrying a ladder as generic tool?

 

No, but you can easily go back to your house and grab one, or borrow one from a friend or relative. It's a common item that takes no special skill to use so I don't see needing a ladder as making it a D5.

[+Avernar]

I have seen caches requiring a UV light or a Chirp compatible device (which also has a separate "Wireless Beacon Required" attribute) rated D5.

After our last night caching event here in southern Ontario, nearly every night cacher in the area has a UV light so it's not really special equipment around here anymore.

[+CanadianRockies]

Examples of things that are not special equipment: flashlight, black light, magnet, tweezers, a bucket of water, ladder, screwdriver

You mean with all the stuff in my SUV I now have to start carrying a ladder as generic tool?

No, but you can easily go back to your house and grab one, or borrow one from a friend or relative. It's a common item that takes no special skill to use so I don't see needing a ladder as making it a D5.

I agree. For the same reasons, I don't think most boat-required caches should be rated as T5s. It's usually not hard to bring one from home, borrow one from a friend, or rent one, then paddle a short distance across a flat lake to an island.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Examples of things that are not special equipment: flashlight, black light, magnet, tweezers, a bucket of water, ladder, screwdriver

You mean with all the stuff in my SUV I now have to start carrying a ladder as generic tool?

No, but you can easily go back to your house and grab one, or borrow one from a friend or relative. It's a common item that takes no special skill to use so I don't see needing a ladder as making it a D5.

I agree. For the same reasons, I don't think most boat-required caches should be rated as T5s. It's usually not hard to bring one from home, borrow one from a friend, or rent one, then paddle a short distance across a flat lake to an island.

 

Agreed, as well. For quite a few "island in a small lake" caches a $20 (or less) inflatable boat or even an inflatable raft that might cost five or six dollars would be all that one needs to paddle a short distance on a calm lake or pond.

[+J the Goat]

Examples of things that are not special equipment: flashlight, black light, magnet, tweezers, a bucket of water, ladder, screwdriver

You mean with all the stuff in my SUV I now have to start carrying a ladder as generic tool?

No, but you can easily go back to your house and grab one, or borrow one from a friend or relative. It's a common item that takes no special skill to use so I don't see needing a ladder as making it a D5.

I agree. For the same reasons, I don't think most boat-required caches should be rated as T5s. It's usually not hard to bring one from home, borrow one from a friend, or rent one, then paddle a short distance across a flat lake to an island.

 

Agreed, as well. For quite a few "island in a small lake" caches a $20 (or less) inflatable boat or even an inflatable raft that might cost five or six dollars would be all that one needs to paddle a short distance on a calm lake or pond.

 

The boat issue is another one that's subjective. I was an all american collegiate swimmer. Caches that "require" a boat generally don't. Not for me at least. If I choose to use a boat instead of swimming a few hundred yards or less to the cache for my convenience, that doesn't make it a terrain 5. Some people can't swim at all. That makes it a higher T rating for them than it does for me. All subjective folks, all subjective.

[+dfx]

The boat issue is another one that's subjective. I was an all american collegiate swimmer. Caches that "require" a boat generally don't. Not for me at least. If I choose to use a boat instead of swimming a few hundred yards or less to the cache for my convenience, that doesn't make it a terrain 5. Some people can't swim at all. That makes it a higher T rating for them than it does for me. All subjective folks, all subjective.

 

That's why you try to use the rating system in a consistent manner, which is the way it was designed to be used. Consistent meaning that you you try to rate every cache equally, for an average cacher, under average circumstances, equipped with an average set of tools and knowledge, etc etc. Of course it's hard to determine what average is, but you can try.

[knowschad]

Examples of special equipment: climbing gear (rope harness, etc.), canoe or kayak, SCUBA gear

 

I thought those things make it a T5, not a D5

 

Yes, but they are examples of special equipment. I really can't think of anything that would effect the difficulty that I would classify as special equipment.

The one item(s?) I thought of was lockpicks - doesn't affect the terrian at all, but would make the difficulty something else... Of course, depending on the lock the difficulty may change (I even learned how to pick a lock with anti-pick tumblers. It blew the locksmith away, but him having a model with a clear side made it easy to learn how to defeat it.) but that's if you have and know how to use them. Without either, the difficulty would be a 6. []

 

ETA: Then there is the side-ward vs. pin/wafer tumbler locks - they use very different tools. Then there's the Ace lock (a very strange pick device) or the ... the list could go on.

 

I don't know if I'd be going after a cache that required me to be carrying burgler tools. Geocachers can have a tough time convincing the police sometimes as it is.

[+The Jester]

Examples of special equipment: climbing gear (rope harness, etc.), canoe or kayak, SCUBA gear

 

I thought those things make it a T5, not a D5

 

Yes, but they are examples of special equipment. I really can't think of anything that would effect the difficulty that I would classify as special equipment.

The one item(s?) I thought of was lockpicks - doesn't affect the terrian at all, but would make the difficulty something else... Of course, depending on the lock the difficulty may change (I even learned how to pick a lock with anti-pick tumblers. It blew the locksmith away, but him having a model with a clear side made it easy to learn how to defeat it.) but that's if you have and know how to use them. Without either, the difficulty would be a 6. []

 

ETA: Then there is the side-ward vs. pin/wafer tumbler locks - they use very different tools. Then there's the Ace lock (a very strange pick device) or the ... the list could go on.

 

I don't know if I'd be going after a cache that required me to be carrying burgler tools. Geocachers can have a tough time convincing the police sometimes as it is.

They aren't burgler tools. Yes, they can be used that way, but so can many other tools. I learned lock picking as a magician (escape routines), but I've taught missionaries the skill (so they could use ex-military file cabinets they were given).

 

Besides, what could you burgle in the woods? (No, I wouldn't place such a cache in an urban/suburban setting. BTW, I haven't placed a cache like this anywhere ... yet! )

Edited November 11, 2011 by The Jester

[+CanadianRockies]

The boat issue is another one that's subjective. I was an all american collegiate swimmer. Caches that "require" a boat generally don't. Not for me at least. If I choose to use a boat instead of swimming a few hundred yards or less to the cache for my convenience, that doesn't make it a terrain 5. Some people can't swim at all. That makes it a higher T rating for them than it does for me. All subjective folks, all subjective.

That's why you try to use the rating system in a consistent manner, which is the way it was designed to be used. Consistent meaning that you you try to rate every cache equally, for an average cacher, under average circumstances, equipped with an average set of tools and knowledge, etc etc. Of course it's hard to determine what average is, but you can try.

Actually, Groundspeak's guidelines make it clear that the ratings are subjective and are intended to be used differently by different people:

 

This rating system is subjective....

 

Cache ratings vary from one community to the next. A 3-star terrain in British Columbia, Canada is most likely going to be a very different experience from a 3-star terrain in Amsterdam, Holland....

 

In the end, that group came to a consensus of suggested definitions of ratings, which is the best they could do. Ultimately, you alone are the best judge for rating your cache....

 

As already indicated, these are simply suggested ratings. Each cache owner can make decisions about the final ratings of our caches.

[+jellis]

To me if it isn't something you normally carry with you or in your vehicle, or that other cachers don't even own, well I consider it a speciallized tool. I don't have a ladder so if I have to even rent or borrow it, then it is special. A lot of cachers don't have a Chirp enabled GPS so to me that is special. Some cachers believe even tweezers are speciallized because if they can't get the log out without one and they don't have one, well then you got to go find one. Oh that's SPECIAL!!!!

And even your suggestion that you go home and get one or borrow even suggests it is specialized.

Edited November 12, 2011 by jellis