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roadcow

Warchalking.org

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My brother just e-mailed me information about www.warchalking.org a way of identifing where nodes are that allow internet access. I'm thinking GPS coordiantes of these chalk sites would be very useful for whipping out the laptop and downloading cache sites.

 

Currently we have Benchmarks to hunt How about Chalksites? Having a list of chalksites would be very handy when traveling.

 

roadcow

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You know, that's not a bad idea... until I can get a cell phone that servicably operates on the web!

 

Charlie

 

"One should never begin a journey by heading in the wrong direction."

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Keep in mind, what they're talking about is breaking into unsecured corporate and personal 802.11 networks, which makes it unsuitable for our purposes for two reasons:

Mostly these places are in major metropolitan areas, not in the suburbs or in the parks. The range on these networks is usually less than 500 ft, and so you need to stand right outside the house/office to do this. (or use a directional antenna suitable for 1.9 Ghz freq, and even that only gets you about 1/2 a mile unless the other end is using one too, and still only line-of-sight)

It's illegal, and especially if you're going to do something traceable like logging into geocaching.com where they can subpeona geocaching.com's web-logs to find you, it's a bad idea.

 

When I first started geocaching, I was thinking about getting a richocet/metrocom wireless modem for my laptop so I could link-up from the hillsides around my home while geocaching, but about that time they went out of business. Palm and a few others still have wireless internet access available in major metopolitan areas, and if you really need to check cache pages in the field, this is probably a better option.

 

-- Mitch

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Thanks Mitch.

 

What do I know? I live under a redwood tree in northern californie. It just seemed like a good idea at the time because, you see, I retire in about 285 days and I am thinking about ways of getting myself set up to where I can hit the road and seek cache for sea to shining sea. Any suggestions appreciated. icon_eek.gif

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Thanks Mitch.

 

What do I know? I live under a redwood tree in northern californie. It just seemed like a good idea at the time because, you see, I retire in about 285 days and I am thinking about ways of getting myself set up to where I can hit the road and seek cache for sea to shining sea. Any suggestions appreciated. icon_eek.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by ROADCOW:

What do I know? I live under a redwood tree in northern californie.


 

I used to live in Blue Lake and Arcata myself. Beautiful area, but it has very limited internet access. You've got 2 local ISPs and a few national ones, and only 1 or 2 high-speed options, mostly serving Arcata and Eureka only. Although parts of the Ricochet network are being revived, I don't expect the northcoast to be served any time soon.

 

quote:
I am thinking about ways of getting myself set up to where I can hit the road and seek cache for sea to shining sea. Any suggestions appreciated.

 

Your best bet is to get an ISP with dialup numbers all over the country, and then dial up whenever you can get a phone line.

 

Other solutions get expensive. You could get a modem capable cell-phone and a cell-capable modem for your laptop, but those typically only give you speeds of 9600 to 19200 baud, and you have to pay a lot for the time and the service.

 

There are a few satellite based net access solutions, but they get really expensive, and are mostly used by cruise ships and the like, and occasionally by people who travel extensively outside normal coverage areas and need to stay in contact via email (e.g. on safari in Africa, or sailing around the world).

 

If you just need simple web access, then like I said before, the Palm VIIx and others can give you limited web-email ability, but usually only around major metropolitan areas.

 

-- Mitch

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I forgot CDPD, which is effectively internet access via the cell network. You can see coverage maps for Verizon and AT&T. You need a CDPD card for your laptop to make this work.

 

-- Mitch

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I do a lot of traveling and utilize the following sources. In Europe I just use internet cafes, even the smallest towns usually have one. Domestically you can't beat libraries, some are more strict than others, but most will let anyone with a valid drivers license use the web. I just DL an easygps.loc to a floppy and then pop it in my laptop.

 

If you are still interested in going the Wi-Fi (802.11b) route there are numerous and growing public nets (ie. Legal) out there. Try www.personaltelco.net

 

Additionally most larger ISP have locally dial-up numbers throughout the country. I have a Sisna.com account just for this reason. Their mail and customer service suck, but I only use them for the dial-up numbers.

 

Hope this helps

dave

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You don't know how easy you have it...

 

Why back in the good old days we used to have to hand write coordinates on fig leaves by dipping a chicken feather in vegtable dye.

 

And we didn't have any new fangled GPS neither, we used divining rods and we liked it.

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I am a big fan of 802.11b.

My question is this. Is it illegal to jump someones connection?

The airwaves are the property of the people of the US.

These particular air waves are in the unregulated part of the spectrum. You could conciveably sit outside one of these businesses on public property (sidewalk, roadside, etc) and use a device such as a phone or walkie talkie that is tuned to the same freq and bring down the network while doing nothing illegal.

 

It is the responsibility of the air wave user to secure their data. I can sit outside of that same business doing "intelligence work" and not be doing anything illegal by monotoring their network.

 

I really do not have an answer whether jumping their connection via 802.11b is really illegal!

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quote:
Originally posted by Directionless:

These particular air waves are in the unregulated part of the spectrum. You could conciveably sit outside one of these businesses on public property (sidewalk, roadside, etc) and use a device such as a phone or walkie talkie that is tuned to the same freq and bring down the network while doing nothing illegal.


Don't try this defense when arrested. "Unregulated" doesn't mean anarchy. It's still illegal to intentionally interfere with another's communication. It's still illegal to access a computer system (or network) without authorization. Heck, you could sit at home, dial in to their modem pool, and be just as guilty *in your own home*.

quote:

It is the responsibility of the air wave user to secure their data. I can sit outside of that same business doing "intelligence work" and not be doing anything illegal by monotoring their network.


By monitoring it, maybe not (although monitoring cordless phone calls and cell calls is illegal, but that is a special case, sort of). However, there may still be an "expectation of privacy". (e.g. just because your neighbor left her curtains open doesn't make it legal to photograph her getting naked, even if you do it with a telephoto lens from the sidewalk). I'm not a lawyer, so I can't say for sure whether the business has an "expectation of privacy" in their 802.11b network. The caselaw is probably nonexistant.

 

But.. if you actually *use* their network, i.e. associate with thier IBSS basestation, then you are guilty of unauthorized use of computer equipment, the same as if you dialed into their network using "public" phone lines.

quote:

I really do not have an answer whether jumping their connection via 802.11b is really illegal!


Ahh.. but others do know.. Saying that just because you didn't have to tresspass doesn't make it illegal is a little naive. Sort of like saying that just because somebody left their bicycle sitting unlocked next to a park bench, it's not illegal to steal it. Their carelessness/stupidity has nothing to do with the illegality of your actions.

 

-- Mitch

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Here in Portland OR at least there are more than a few nodes run by folks who ALLOW folks to use a slice of thier bandwidth to connect via the wireless ports.

 

This is called A GOOD THING and should not be confused with the THEM GEEKS ARE ALL CRIMINAL mindset.

 

Yes, some people actualy SHARE bits of what they have so others can join in.

 

So rather than just painting this all with the CRIMINAL brush, why not look into it some more and find the wonderfull world of Random Acts OF Kindness.

 

-tom

 

----------------------------

TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

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quote:
Originally posted by TeamWSMF:

 

So rather than just painting this all with the CRIMINAL brush, why not look into it some more and find the wonderfull world of Random Acts OF Kindness.

 

-tom


 

I realize this. I've been one of them at various times, though according to my logs nobody ever took advantage of my dinky little 802.11b network. However, that's not the goal with warchalking.org, which can be interpreted as anything from a mostly harmless security survey, to a shorthand for those who are ethically impaired. (For those not familiar with the evolution of this, search for 'wardriving' on slashdot.org).

 

I don't mean to imply that all those who use open networks are criminals, but unless you "know" that the network you're associated with is supposed to be open, then you might be breaking the law. What galled me was the attitude of the previous poster.... "If I can find a way to circumvent their technology, then I have a right to hack into their network." Which in my mind is the moral equivilent of "If I can find an unlocked door, I have a right to rob the house." and the attitude of some corporate CEOs that "If I can get away with cooking the books, then it must be okay!" (I knew I could get something topical in there. icon_smile.gif )

 

-- Mitch

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quote:
Originally posted by TeamWSMF:

 

So rather than just painting this all with the CRIMINAL brush, why not look into it some more and find the wonderfull world of Random Acts OF Kindness.

 

-tom


 

I realize this. I've been one of them at various times, though according to my logs nobody ever took advantage of my dinky little 802.11b network. However, that's not the goal with warchalking.org, which can be interpreted as anything from a mostly harmless security survey, to a shorthand for those who are ethically impaired. (For those not familiar with the evolution of this, search for 'wardriving' on slashdot.org).

 

I don't mean to imply that all those who use open networks are criminals, but unless you "know" that the network you're associated with is supposed to be open, then you might be breaking the law. What galled me was the attitude of the previous poster.... "If I can find a way to circumvent their technology, then I have a right to hack into their network." Which in my mind is the moral equivilent of "If I can find an unlocked door, I have a right to rob the house." and the attitude of some corporate CEOs that "If I can get away with cooking the books, then it must be okay!" (I knew I could get something topical in there. icon_smile.gif )

 

-- Mitch

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First off, before I ramble on some, here are some URLs that contain infromation on warchalking, complete with active discourse on the legal vs nonlegal ways to use it.......

 

http://www.blackbeltjones.com/warchalking/

http://www.freenetworks.org/

http://www.personaltelco.net/

 

Now, on witht he ramble.....................

 

Pretty much anything can be misused and abused, this is true.

 

You can geocache on private lands, you can wreck a really nice ecosystem by trampling thru it with a few hundred electronic devices strapped to your body as you look for a Happy Meal Cache, heck you can walk around a crowded neighborhood with your cordless phone and probably get free calls by finding a nearby base that thinks you its phone.

 

But hopefully folks will use things not to wreck a thing but to explore it, educate themselves about it, and leave it as (or better) than they found it.

 

Most folks here wouldnt trample down a nice ecosystem or scam phone calls, nor do I think will most folks here warchalk to scam net connections either. Those that will , will; thats thier karma.

 

But for the rest of us its a chance at even more exploration, education and expansion, the three E's of a truly goodtime:)-

 

SO sure, be aware of your surrounding, this holds true wether tis about the local laws of the land your caching on or the networks your using, but do not hold back on doing something simply because it COULD be illegal or SEEMS illegal.

Find out first, educate yourselves and then go explore.

 

You will be amazed at whats LEGALY permissable both in geocahing and wifi searching.

 

-tom

 

----------------------------

TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

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First off, before I ramble on some, here are some URLs that contain infromation on warchalking, complete with active discourse on the legal vs nonlegal ways to use it.......

 

http://www.blackbeltjones.com/warchalking/

http://www.freenetworks.org/

http://www.personaltelco.net/

 

Now, on witht he ramble.....................

 

Pretty much anything can be misused and abused, this is true.

 

You can geocache on private lands, you can wreck a really nice ecosystem by trampling thru it with a few hundred electronic devices strapped to your body as you look for a Happy Meal Cache, heck you can walk around a crowded neighborhood with your cordless phone and probably get free calls by finding a nearby base that thinks you its phone.

 

But hopefully folks will use things not to wreck a thing but to explore it, educate themselves about it, and leave it as (or better) than they found it.

 

Most folks here wouldnt trample down a nice ecosystem or scam phone calls, nor do I think will most folks here warchalk to scam net connections either. Those that will , will; thats thier karma.

 

But for the rest of us its a chance at even more exploration, education and expansion, the three E's of a truly goodtimeicon_smile.gif-

 

SO sure, be aware of your surrounding, this holds true wether tis about the local laws of the land your caching on or the networks your using, but do not hold back on doing something simply because it COULD be illegal or SEEMS illegal.

Find out first, educate yourselves and then go explore.

 

You will be amazed at whats LEGALY permissable both in geocahing and wifi searching.

 

-tom

 

----------------------------

TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

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Seems like an aweful lot of thats illegal, you can't do that, etc. I am not a lawyer and as Tom says you would be surprised at what is actually "legal" and what isn't.

 

Pnumatic drawing an analogy to my comments and the CEO problems is offensive and not germain to the topic. They have absolutly nothing to do with each other and as an analogy is weak at best. "Pandering" comes to mind.

 

Here is my argument.

1) I am using public owned air waves

2) I am on public property, not trespassing in any way.

3) I have every right to use that frequency

 

Connection issues:

 

4) I am not "Hacking or Cracking" a user id or password.

5) In fact my machine is quering the nodes owners machine for permission to access the network and the node is granting permission by assigning a I.P. address. (DHCP)

 

Presumptive issues.

6) How am I to know that this use of the public airwaves is private? Am I to presume it is private or public, after all it is the public domain.

7) There is no way for me to determine if this is a private network and not something like "freenet.org" site.

 

There is another argument here as well. The nodes owner is in control of access using this unregulated airwave. The user is in NO WAY able to determine that this is a private network. How do I know that I am accessing a private network when the guy next door also runs a 802.11b net and it is free and open.

 

It is incumbent, in this instance, for the person who CAN excercise control, do so. If they are to use 802.11b in a private manner.

 

Last: Search all you want I cannot find any case law regarding this issue.

 

SO until there is clarity in the Law. My opinion is as good as anyones.

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I love a good flame war icon_wink.gif

 

quote:
Originally posted by Directionless:

Pnumatic drawing an analogy to my comments and the CEO problems is offensive and not germain to the topic.


Boy.. you don't mind being compared to a thief, but being compared to a CEO gets you all bent out of shape. Now *that's* social commentary. icon_eek.gif

My only point there was the you seem to be advocating covering an illegal act with a highly dubious claim of "I didn't knowingly do anything wrong".

quote:

Here is my argument.

1) I am using public owned air waves


This statement reminds me of the statments in these forums a while back that since the park land was "publicly owned" that we could do any dadgum thing we wanted on it. Wrong! The term is unregulated, meaning (among other things) that you don't need a license to use it, the same way that bolt cutters are "unlicensed", but that doesn't make using them legal in all circumstances..

quote:

2) I am on public property, not trespassing in any way.


Which is irrelevant. Tresspassing is not a prerequisite. There are plenty of crimes you can commit standing on a streetcorner. (including some pretty fun ones icon_smile.gif )

quote:

3) I have every right to use that frequency


The term "right" gets thrown around a lot. You have the right to a speedy trial, the right to an attorney, the right to peacably assemble, and to seek redress of grievences, you have the right to bear arms (but only inasmuch as there is a need for a well regulated militia). Nowhere is there a well recognized document that guarantees you the "right" to use the 2.4Ghz spectrum.

quote:

Connection issues:

 

4) I am not "Hacking or Cracking" a user id or password.


You *are* probably having to use AirSnort (or similar) to get the ESSID, and maybe the WEP keys, or are relying on someone doing the same and publishing it.

quote:

5) In fact my machine is quering the nodes owners machine for permission to access the network and the node is granting permission by assigning a I.P. address. (DHCP)


Aside from the technical problems with this (IP is a different layer of the network protocol than ethernet, and is only tangentially related), this is akin to saying that "I queried the doorknob to see if it gave me permission to enter the house". Computers can't give you permission, only a human can do that. Sure a good network admin would have additional authenication, but their negligence doesn't relieve of you of the culpability any more than using an unlocked door to enter a house relieves you of the culpability of breaking and entering.

quote:

Presumptive issues.

6) How am I to know that this use of the public airwaves is private? Am I to presume it is private or public, after all it is the public domain.


That is an affirmative defense. You need to show that you have a reasonable belief that you had permission to use that network. Unless you can show that you have a resonable belief that there is an open network that hapens to have same ESSID right next door (within 300 ft or so) to the network in question, then you have no such defense.

quote:
SO until there is clarity in the Law. My opinion is as good as anyones.

 

Be careful what you wish for... already IP owners are pushing through draconian DRM technologies and laws mandating their use becuase some people claim "how was I to know that it was wrong to copy that software/music/movie?"

 

I am fighting against the coming tide of DRM, because I know that there is such a thing as "fair use", but fair use is going to be lost if DRM is built into the hardware and software(*). Because people are abdicating their responsibility to make moral decisions, technology is being designed to take the desicions away from them, and at the same time concentrating a frightening amount of power among a very few people.

 

If lots of people take the attitude that any unsecured network is fair game, how long before business interest push through laws heavily regulating the use of WiFi, and that would be the end of the hobbiest home network, and freely available open network. Don't let weaknesses in technology act as a rationalization of amoral behavior, or the techology used to "fix" it will hurt us all.

 

-- Mitch

 

(*) An example: I was watching a DVD on my computer the other day, and I wanted to take a screenshot of the opening scene to use as a backdrop. (I am pretty sure this falls under "fair use".) However, when I tried, the screenshot program put up a dialog box that it wouldn't work while the DVD player was open. Right now this is just Apple pandering to the MPAA, and I have the option of getting another DVD player or screen grabber (or writing my own, if I were so inclined), but if hardware like Palladium (search slashdot.org for recent article) and laws like the CBDTPA (or whatever Sen. Holling's bill is called now) come along, then all software will be like that.

 

[This message was edited by Pneumatic on July 02, 2002 at 10:47 AM.]

 

[This message was edited by Pneumatic on July 02, 2002 at 11:30 AM.]

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I love a good flame war icon_wink.gif

 

quote:
Originally posted by Directionless:

Pnumatic drawing an analogy to my comments and the CEO problems is offensive and not germain to the topic.


Boy.. you don't mind being compared to a thief, but being compared to a CEO gets you all bent out of shape. Now *that's* social commentary. icon_eek.gif

My only point there was the you seem to be advocating covering an illegal act with a highly dubious claim of "I didn't knowingly do anything wrong".

quote:

Here is my argument.

1) I am using public owned air waves


This statement reminds me of the statments in these forums a while back that since the park land was "publicly owned" that we could do any dadgum thing we wanted on it. Wrong! The term is unregulated, meaning (among other things) that you don't need a license to use it, the same way that bolt cutters are "unlicensed", but that doesn't make using them legal in all circumstances..

quote:

2) I am on public property, not trespassing in any way.


Which is irrelevant. Tresspassing is not a prerequisite. There are plenty of crimes you can commit standing on a streetcorner. (including some pretty fun ones icon_smile.gif )

quote:

3) I have every right to use that frequency


The term "right" gets thrown around a lot. You have the right to a speedy trial, the right to an attorney, the right to peacably assemble, and to seek redress of grievences, you have the right to bear arms (but only inasmuch as there is a need for a well regulated militia). Nowhere is there a well recognized document that guarantees you the "right" to use the 2.4Ghz spectrum.

quote:

Connection issues:

 

4) I am not "Hacking or Cracking" a user id or password.


You *are* probably having to use AirSnort (or similar) to get the ESSID, and maybe the WEP keys, or are relying on someone doing the same and publishing it.

quote:

5) In fact my machine is quering the nodes owners machine for permission to access the network and the node is granting permission by assigning a I.P. address. (DHCP)


Aside from the technical problems with this (IP is a different layer of the network protocol than ethernet, and is only tangentially related), this is akin to saying that "I queried the doorknob to see if it gave me permission to enter the house". Computers can't give you permission, only a human can do that. Sure a good network admin would have additional authenication, but their negligence doesn't relieve of you of the culpability any more than using an unlocked door to enter a house relieves you of the culpability of breaking and entering.

quote:

Presumptive issues.

6) How am I to know that this use of the public airwaves is private? Am I to presume it is private or public, after all it is the public domain.


That is an affirmative defense. You need to show that you have a reasonable belief that you had permission to use that network. Unless you can show that you have a resonable belief that there is an open network that hapens to have same ESSID right next door (within 300 ft or so) to the network in question, then you have no such defense.

quote:
SO until there is clarity in the Law. My opinion is as good as anyones.

 

Be careful what you wish for... already IP owners are pushing through draconian DRM technologies and laws mandating their use becuase some people claim "how was I to know that it was wrong to copy that software/music/movie?"

 

I am fighting against the coming tide of DRM, because I know that there is such a thing as "fair use", but fair use is going to be lost if DRM is built into the hardware and software(*). Because people are abdicating their responsibility to make moral decisions, technology is being designed to take the desicions away from them, and at the same time concentrating a frightening amount of power among a very few people.

 

If lots of people take the attitude that any unsecured network is fair game, how long before business interest push through laws heavily regulating the use of WiFi, and that would be the end of the hobbiest home network, and freely available open network. Don't let weaknesses in technology act as a rationalization of amoral behavior, or the techology used to "fix" it will hurt us all.

 

-- Mitch

 

(*) An example: I was watching a DVD on my computer the other day, and I wanted to take a screenshot of the opening scene to use as a backdrop. (I am pretty sure this falls under "fair use".) However, when I tried, the screenshot program put up a dialog box that it wouldn't work while the DVD player was open. Right now this is just Apple pandering to the MPAA, and I have the option of getting another DVD player or screen grabber (or writing my own, if I were so inclined), but if hardware like Palladium (search slashdot.org for recent article) and laws like the CBDTPA (or whatever Sen. Holling's bill is called now) come along, then all software will be like that.

 

[This message was edited by Pneumatic on July 02, 2002 at 10:47 AM.]

 

[This message was edited by Pneumatic on July 02, 2002 at 11:30 AM.]

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I am Italian my friend, sitting around and having a heated debate is called "Dinner" around here.

 

Look, you bring up points that are seated in your point of view. I bring up points from mine. I think you are a little overboard in your comments, but coming from your view, I would feel the same way.

 

By trespass I meant that I am not violating your property in any way (i.e. jacking in to your network, pinching a line etc.) I am only using a medium that I have a right (and the word is correctly used here as interpreted by Federal case law ans Supreme court rulings) to use as much as the nodes owner has the right to use it. If it were regulated or licensed to that entity I would not have this opinion or argument. It is not regulated and purposely so. It belongs to us all. Please no constitutional monologs.

 

And thief is your opinion I am not stooping to calling you names my friend that is the sure sign of a weak position.

 

You also said that I was "probably" using AirSnort or something. You are wrong And no one published it. It is also not germain to what I was addressing which is Hacking or Cracking your network. Which I define as taking overt measures to circumvent the protections you have put in place to your privacy. As stated I am not doing these things.

 

Computers give us permission every minute of every day. It is a computer that decides to "Allow" you enter into an intersection by turning the light green and denying others by turning the light red. A computer gives you permission to post here. A computer decides whether to give me my cash at an ATM and not your cash. It is a computer that scans me for metal at the airport and denies me access to my plane or secure areas . It is the humans who instruct the machines that are excercising control. So protect your 802.11b network otherwise I assume it is free.

 

This assumption is not any kind of Defense at all. Affirmative or otherwise.

 

I have every legal right to use 802.11b anywhere I want as long as I am not trespassing on your property. I am doing nothing to overtly infiltrate your network in fact I am not even looking for it, I open my laptop and there it is. Public airwaves, unregulated, I don't have to assume it is free, it is there and my machine queries the node and gets a reply from that node that says "use me". Using your argument, I agree it is humans who issue the orders. I assume that it's human boss said it's free use it. Otherwise it would deny my access which YOU have every right to do

 

Your DVD example uses DVD which is protected by copyright law. You may have no right to that material. Your argumnent of "fair use" could be litigated however and a judge would interpret the law. But copyright law is pretty well established.

 

I agree with your personal crusades!!!!!

I agree with your choice of Macs

 

However you didn't address this issue which may be the strongest of them all:

 

7) There is no way for me to determine if this is a private network and not something like "freenet.org" site.

 

There is another argument here as well. The nodes owner is in control of access using this unregulated airwave. The user is in NO WAY able to determine that this is a private network. How do I know that I am accessing a private network when the guy next door also runs a 802.11b net and it is free and open.

 

It is incumbent, in this instance, for the person who CAN excercise control, do so. If they are to use 802.11b in a private manner.

 

I have no way to determine if I am doin g something illegal, I have no way of finding the owner of the network. The owners have every means at their disposal to prevent unwanted use. With the assumption that "we all own the airwaves" "we all agree that you can use these airwaves in an unregulated manner" don't call me a thief a CEO mentality idiot because you were to lazy or incompetent to tell your wireless router that you didn't want it to be wide open for all to use.

 

Innocent until proven quilty remember. Free unless regulated. Thief no, citizen yes, opportunistic you bet.

 

[This message was edited by Directionless on July 02, 2002 at 02:42 PM.]

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If you think Warchalking is wild, checkout www.netstumbler.com and wigle.net. There are over 21k access points open and logged in the database. Scanning for broadcasts is not illegal in most states. This is the same law that allows the use of radar detectors. If I can legally purchase equipment to receive the broadcast, then I am allowed to monitor it and utilize the data. As far as limitations go on 802.11b networks, some are usings networks over 500 yards away. It all depends the antenna and the environment.

 

To each his own.

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Innocent Until Proven Guilty

 

Ok, a little ranting ahead so get on your boots. Eventually I actually make this Geocaching relevant, just hang in their.

 

Our nation’s laws are made more from corporate lobby interests than populace response. This is why the copyright laws have been redone to favor the corporation and not the sum of the knowledge pool as was the original intent. This is why forces like Disney, the RIAA and the MPAA are able to get their will enforced with government guns and laws. This is way the spectrum (radio, TV, cell, etc) has been turned from a resource of the people into a resource for the highest bidder to exploit and receive protection from the government against any other uses.

 

Now before some of you tune out thinking “Oh man another anti-corporate but jobber.” let me put this into perspective. The sad part to this is not that the Corps are evil men in black bad guys…they are not all that. They are doing what they need to do to grow their bottom line. This is not always a bad thing, heck it’s a great thing….if the balance is their. The real sad part to this is that the other side of the equation, that being the voice of the populace, is not in play to balance their actions.

 

We the people have let this happen and now we the people are living in a state in which the spectrum is mostly closed for our use, exploration is only allowable in certain defined terms, and innovation is confined. Unless there is a monetary/political force behind you in numbers enough to result in the law makers to either fear loosing something or give them hope to gain something you are pretty much on the also-ran powerless sidelines.

 

“Innocent until proven guilty” is now more “Guilty until proven profitable to the existing power structure.”

 

Lets not forget that in recent years large chunks of our populace have supported (either vocally or silently) the FCC and its strong arm tactics of spectrum control, buying into the “need” for invasive DRM in all devices, letting the Copyright laws be bent from a public use benefit…

 

This is why projects like geocaching, open source software, open node networking, and other non corporate share based projects are allowed to run under the knowing or unknowing aegis of the current system up to the point they start taking away profits from the forces that run the lobbyists who in turn whisper into the ears of the law makers.

 

If geocaching were found to take away from an existing force’s profit I would bet you large sums of money the shiz would start hitting the fan. You would see media about the evils of geocaching, you would see industry leaders set up against the vile geocachers and the poor citizens who need protecting, you would see legislation moving thru the government to return the balance to the rightful position.

 

Cases in point..The US Gov versus a little bit of programming called DeCSS, the arrest of Dmitry Sklyarov, Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act versus Public Domain, Negativland and FairUse.

 

Geocachers are using public lands in ways not thought of by the legal stewards of those lands. If the stewards (DOI, DOA and local versions there of) deem geocaching to be bad then we got ourselves a problem. The good news is its not a new problem it’s the same one microbroadcasters have been having with the FCC, the legal stewards of the spectrum, for decades. The bad news is it took years and years and years and years for the microbroadcasters to even make a dent in the FCC’s stance on them.

 

The good news is…well its not so much good news but it is good to know that some microbroadcasting goes on wither the FCC likes it or not. So to with geocaching I think even if the stewards of the public lands ban it all from happening, it will still happen.

 

Why?

 

For the same reason folks decided to dump tea in the water and throw two fingers up at the existing power structure of the day.

 

Some links of interest. I do not agree with everything these links hold but the information therein is informative in some way.

 

Land Use Links

http://www.blm.gov/nhp/landfacts/pls96.html

http://www.perc.org/publications/publiclands.html

 

Copyright, DRM, Fair Use Links

http://www.underwhelm.org/freedima/

http://www.law.asu.edu/HomePages/Karjala/OpposingCopyrightExtension/

http://www.negativland.com/intprop.html

 

----------------------------

TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

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If I read the industry right WiFi, now being called WLans (a name change is always the first sign things are getting "popular" with the powerbase) are probably going to mirror that of online biz but at an accelerated pace.

 

Think of it like this….

 

They are now where BBS’s where in early 80’s. In 6 -8 months time they will be were ISP’s were in the early 90’s. In 12-20 months will be where Cell Phones are today, i.e. nodes will be as prevalent as cell towers, and coverage area holes will start being filled in.

 

It also means all the fun parts of exploration, discovery and noncommercial projects will be kept down to the confines of not infringing on profit space.

 

Enjoy it while you can.

 

Some links of the evolution of WiFi's

 

http://www.commsdesign.com/story/OEG20020701S0064

 

http://www.internetnews.com/wireless/article.php/10692_992321

 

http://news.com.com/2100-1033-918439.html

 

----------------------------

TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

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try this www.nycwireless.net these are free sites in new york city. article in new york times today about it

 

SR and dboggny. wife/ patriot, beer drinker

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Speaking of NY, This just in from a friend of mine:

But, interestingly, in New York, apparently, grabbing bandwidth is not considered "computer trespass:"

 

156.10 Computer trespass.

 

A person is guilty of computer trespass when he knowingly uses or causes to be used a computer or computer service without authorization and:

 

1. he does so with an intent to commit or attempt to commit or further the commission of any felony; or

 

2. he thereby knowingly gains access to computer material.

 

Computer trespass is a class E felony.

 

In fact, the computer crime law in NYS (5743--B Cal. No. 965) never even mentions the word "network!"

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quote:
Originally posted by Directionless:

Speaking of NY,

156.10 Computer trespass.

 

A person is guilty of computer trespass when he knowingly uses or causes to be used a computer or computer service without authorization and:

(....)

In fact, the computer crime law in NYS (5743--B Cal. No. 965) never even mentions the word "network!"


 

Wow... you're really grasping at straws. Don't you think that a network might be considered a "computer service" under the law? Heck, the access point is a computer in it's own right, as it the router, and the DHCP server... and you're accessing them all!

 

Would you really attempt to say (in front of a judge) that speeding statutes don't apply to you because they don't mention your brand of car? That's asking for a contempt citation.

 

I had promised to let this thread drop, since in composing my last response that we were just rehashing the same few issues over and over.

 

-- Mitch

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quote:
Originally posted by ROADCOW:

Thanks Mitch.

 

What do I know? I live under a redwood tree in northern californie. It just seemed like a good idea at the time because, you see, I retire in about 285 days and I am thinking about ways of getting myself set up to where I can hit the road and seek cache for sea to shining sea. Any suggestions appreciated. icon_eek.gif


 

icon_wink.gif There is only one place that you need know about. Public Libraries! Even the rural ones have conenctions. Some of them charge you to print pages and in a few cases, some charge pennies for usage (more if you do not live in the area). And, if they do not have a connection, tell the librarian to contact the phone company to get connected. After all, we pay for their access on every phone bill through those misc. charges.

 

Bear & Ting

 

P.S. I envy you, wish I could retire.

 

I thought I was a little off, then I looked at my GPS and discovered I accurate to 12 ft.

 

Geocachers don't NEED to ask for directions!

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quote:
Originally posted by ROADCOW:

Thanks Mitch.

 

What do I know? I live under a redwood tree in northern californie. It just seemed like a good idea at the time because, you see, I retire in about 285 days and I am thinking about ways of getting myself set up to where I can hit the road and seek cache for sea to shining sea. Any suggestions appreciated. icon_eek.gif


 

icon_wink.gif There is only one place that you need know about. Public Libraries! Even the rural ones have conenctions. Some of them charge you to print pages and in a few cases, some charge pennies for usage (more if you do not live in the area). And, if they do not have a connection, tell the librarian to contact the phone company to get connected. After all, we pay for their access on every phone bill through those misc. charges.

 

Bear & Ting

 

P.S. I envy you, wish I could retire.

 

I thought I was a little off, then I looked at my GPS and discovered I accurate to 12 ft.

 

Geocachers don't NEED to ask for directions!

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Mitch:

I am willing to let this drop but read the law again. There is an "AND" in there that means you have to do the first AND one of the two other conditions.

 

Your definition of Access point has no relevance if you don't do one of these things:

 

1. he does so with an intent to commit or attempt to commit or further the commission of any felony; or

2. he thereby knowingly gains access to computer material.

 

Surprising as it seems in New York using your bandwidth isn't a crime unless I mess with your files or I use that access to commit a crime (felony).

 

I literally rest my case.

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We gee folks. This has been very interesting. What a bunch of talent we have amongst our group.

 

It sounds like this thread has been about beat to death but... if new means of access to Geocaching.com while out on the road appears... I hope it will be added to the forums.

 

Meanwhile, librarys sound good. Probably less likely to be mistaken for an evil dooer that way. icon_eek.gif

 

roadcow

Elk, Californie

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We gee folks. This has been very interesting. What a bunch of talent we have amongst our group.

 

It sounds like this thread has been about beat to death but... if new means of access to Geocaching.com while out on the road appears... I hope it will be added to the forums.

 

Meanwhile, librarys sound good. Probably less likely to be mistaken for an evil dooer that way. icon_eek.gif

 

roadcow

Elk, Californie

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I ment to say "Well" gee folks...

 

But, you get the idea. icon_confused.gif

 

I must be getting old!

 

roadcow

etc.

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I ment to say "Well" gee folks...

 

But, you get the idea. icon_confused.gif

 

I must be getting old!

 

roadcow

etc.

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quote:
Originally posted by Pneumatic:

I love a good flame war icon_wink.gif

 

Nowhere is there a well recognized document that guarantees you the "right" to use the 2.4Ghz spectrum.


 

Really. I'm sure the FCC would disagree. They generate tonnes of documentation every year.

 

quote:

4) I am not "Hacking or Cracking" a user id or password.

 

You *are* probably having to use AirSnort (or similar) to get the ESSID, and maybe the WEP keys, or are relying on someone doing the same and publishing it.


 

NOPE!!! Just turn your laptop on or, if travelling, lose your connection and then when you move into range your laptop will see the signal and AUTOMATICALLY attach to the network. The only time you will be ASKED is if there are multiple nodes available. You don't need to do anything fancy if the node is completely open.

 

quote:

If lots of people take the attitude that any unsecured network is fair game, how long before business interest push through laws heavily regulating the use of WiFi, and that would be the end of the hobbiest home network, and freely available open network. Don't let weaknesses in technology act as a rationalization of amoral behavior, or the techology used to "fix" it will hurt us all.


 

The problem with wireless extends to other things too. For example I saw a news serial regarding the X-10 wireless cameras. The reporter and a techy went driving around neighborhoods and were able to pick up video from peoples houses. In one case they showed the video of a baby sleeping to the parents who freaked out, ran inside and disconnected the camera! The TV reporter apparently went to a lawyer who did some research and explained to her that there is nothing illegal in what they did.

 

There are two places where you COULD run into trouble. Firstly, connecting to the network while driving down the street is completely legal. Secondly, getting an IP address handed to you is completely legal. HOWEVER, once you actually attempt to surf out to the internet you are theoretically costing the owner of the AP money and therefore it is Illegal. Secondly, in Canada we have a fairly open ended law called "Unlawful use of a computer". As you can expect, if I connect to your PC for any reason, it could be considered a violation of this law.

 

Rob

Mobile Cache Command

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quote:
Originally posted by Pneumatic:

I love a good flame war icon_wink.gif

 

Nowhere is there a well recognized document that guarantees you the "right" to use the 2.4Ghz spectrum.


 

Really. I'm sure the FCC would disagree. They generate tonnes of documentation every year.

 

quote:

4) I am not "Hacking or Cracking" a user id or password.

 

You *are* probably having to use AirSnort (or similar) to get the ESSID, and maybe the WEP keys, or are relying on someone doing the same and publishing it.


 

NOPE!!! Just turn your laptop on or, if travelling, lose your connection and then when you move into range your laptop will see the signal and AUTOMATICALLY attach to the network. The only time you will be ASKED is if there are multiple nodes available. You don't need to do anything fancy if the node is completely open.

 

quote:

If lots of people take the attitude that any unsecured network is fair game, how long before business interest push through laws heavily regulating the use of WiFi, and that would be the end of the hobbiest home network, and freely available open network. Don't let weaknesses in technology act as a rationalization of amoral behavior, or the techology used to "fix" it will hurt us all.


 

The problem with wireless extends to other things too. For example I saw a news serial regarding the X-10 wireless cameras. The reporter and a techy went driving around neighborhoods and were able to pick up video from peoples houses. In one case they showed the video of a baby sleeping to the parents who freaked out, ran inside and disconnected the camera! The TV reporter apparently went to a lawyer who did some research and explained to her that there is nothing illegal in what they did.

 

There are two places where you COULD run into trouble. Firstly, connecting to the network while driving down the street is completely legal. Secondly, getting an IP address handed to you is completely legal. HOWEVER, once you actually attempt to surf out to the internet you are theoretically costing the owner of the AP money and therefore it is Illegal. Secondly, in Canada we have a fairly open ended law called "Unlawful use of a computer". As you can expect, if I connect to your PC for any reason, it could be considered a violation of this law.

 

Rob

Mobile Cache Command

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quote:
Originally posted by Directionless:

Mitch:

I am willing to let this drop but read the law again. There is an "AND" in there that means you have to do the first AND one of the two other conditions.

 

Your definition of Access point has no relevance if you don't do one of these things:

 

1. he does so with an intent to commit or attempt to commit or further the commission of any felony; or

2. he thereby knowingly gains access to computer material.

 

Surprising as it seems in New York using your bandwidth isn't a crime unless I mess with your files or I use that access to commit a crime (felony).

 

I literally rest my case.


 

If you consider that people using my bandwidth would put me over my monthly 4 gig limit and thereby cause me to incure charges, IF I had an open AP and I caught someone using it, I'd therefore have grounds to either lay charges or sue.

 

Once you cause "damages" by costing the other person money, you have commited a crime.

 

Rob

Mobile Cache Command

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Originally (e.g. just because your neighbor left her curtains open doesn't make it legal to photograph her getting naked, even if you do it with a telephoto lens from the sidewalk).

 

if she didnt wanna be photographed she shouldnt have been posing like that... thats my story and im stickin to it.... icon_razz.gif

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Originally (e.g. just because your neighbor left her curtains open doesn't make it legal to photograph her getting naked, even if you do it with a telephoto lens from the sidewalk).

 

if she didnt wanna be photographed she shouldnt have been posing like that... thats my story and im stickin to it.... icon_razz.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by ROADCOW:

 

Meanwhile, librarys sound good. Probably less likely to be mistaken for an evil dooer that way. icon_eek.gif


 

And this is how we all fall down, by not doing something that LEGAL because misinformation has made it so we FEAR to be seen as criminal.

 

Sad sad sad.

 

One Nation Under Fear, Uncertanty and Doubt

 

Wow

 

-tom

 

----------------------------

TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

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quote:
Originally posted by ROADCOW:

 

Meanwhile, librarys sound good. Probably less likely to be mistaken for an evil dooer that way. icon_eek.gif


 

And this is how we all fall down, by not doing something that LEGAL because misinformation has made it so we FEAR to be seen as criminal.

 

Sad sad sad.

 

One Nation Under Fear, Uncertanty and Doubt

 

Wow

 

-tom

 

----------------------------

TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

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quote:
Originally posted by mrcpu:If you consider that people using my bandwidth would put me over my monthly 4 gig limit and thereby cause me to incure charges, IF I had an open AP and I caught someone using it, I'd therefore have grounds to either lay charges or sue.

 

Of course you would have placed a Bandwith CAP on all users from that method, right? I mean you did research the use of filters, limits and caps on users?

 

So if you left your system a mess and did not properly set things up, the blame would be on ....(and this is where we find out if things are being controled by individulas or folks crying for Big Brother to make thier decisons for them.)

 

quote:

Once you cause "damages" by costing the other person money, you have commited a crime.


 

Actualy, thats not a legal definiation of a crime. You would have to show cause and intent, not to mention culpability of mismangement.

 

Its not so black and white in either direction.

 

----------------------------

TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

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quote:
Originally posted by Eric O'Connor:

You don't know how easy you have it...

 

Why back in the good old days we used to have to hand write coordinates on fig leaves by dipping a chicken feather in vegtable dye.

 

And we didn't have any new fangled GPS neither, we used divining rods and we liked it.


 

Eric,

 

Unbelievable! All of this bickering and arguing and not ONE funny (except of course, for Eric!)

 

Criminal, where are you when I need you??

 

(Oh well, let's try a little humor!)

=========================

Geez, when I was young, we were so poor, we couldn't even afford dowsing rods or caches! We had to cut pictures of caches out of the newspaper (which we got used from bird cages) and hide the pictures.

 

We'd then take turns with a picture of a dowsing rod, trying to find the picture of the hidden cache...

 

But you try to tell the young whippersnappers today about the old days... and they won't believe ya!

 

Nawhhh, they got them newfangled gizmos, and GPSs and Satellites, and MTV, and stereo comin' outta each wheel, and fax implants where they used to have an appendix, and electric shoes that light up, and hand warmers, and foot warmers, and bideaus, and what the heck is up with our presidents nowadays!, and television eyeglasses, and all I got is these Little Liver Pills (and my name ain't even Carter! Darn yer' hides!!)

 

Honey, have you seen my medicine?...

 

--majicman

 

(Always trade UP in both quantity and quality and Geocaches will be both self-sustaining and self-improving!)

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quote:
Originally posted by TeamWSMF:

And this is how we all fall down, by not doing something that LEGAL because misinformation has made it so we FEAR to be seen as criminal.


 

I want to make it clear that I would love to see publicly available WiFi nodes for general use, but simply assuming that every unsercured network is open for your use is the legal (and moral) equivilent of assuming that every unlocked door leads to a free hotel.

 

You say that it's the resposibility of the Wifi node owner to place per-user bandwidth and xfer limits to avoid excessive usage, but that is close to impossible with most commerically available SOHO WiFi access points. With a little reading I *might* be able to implement something like that with iptables, but that's well beyond the capabilities of joe homeowner.

 

Also, businesses (for the most part) have to pay for All bandwidth, they don't get a free alotment. By using their network, you are using resources they're paying for and costing them money directly.

 

As for the argument that their is no crime (under NY law) because no computer material was accessed: the IP address assigned by the DHCP server might qualify as computer material, but if it doesn't then the web traffic delievered to their IP address does.

 

This is beginnign to sound like one of those arguments from the 60's based on the premise that "(all) private property is theft".

 

Again, I'd love to see publicly available nodes so that you can be connected anyplace, but that required either government funding of a public good (e.g the park system), or a volunteer organization that self-regulates (sort of like the geocaching community itself). If we're talking about a public WiFi network established expressly for public use by volunteers, then effectively we're talking about a gift economy, and for a gift economy to work it has got to have a strong ethical underpinning both for those who provide and those who use the service (otherwise the system gets abused).

 

- Mitch

 

[This message was edited by Pneumatic on July 10, 2002 at 10:27 AM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by Eric O'Connor:

You don't know how easy you have it...

 

Why back in the good old days we used to have to hand write coordinates on fig leaves by dipping a chicken feather in vegtable dye.

 

And we didn't have any new fangled GPS neither, we used divining rods and we liked it.


 

Rotflmao, just read the divining rod thread a few hours ago....

 

"...Not all those who wander are lost..."

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As usual Pneumatic your arguments keep nibbling around the same tired ground.

 

The door example is clearly defined by Trespass law.

It has no place in this particular argument.

 

If you can load AOL onto a computer you have enough ability to configure a wireless router to WAP.

I did it literally without picking up a manual with an Apple Airport. I used the manual to install the wireless card only, in my Powerbooks. I have a girlfriend who configured her LINKSYS in about 30 minutes with her Dell laptop.

 

"Close to impossible with most commercially available SOHO Wifi access points" is rubbish. If you can figure out the crap you have to go through to run any version of windows and virus protection. These units are a piece of cake. Your reaching here.

 

Businesses pay for all their bandwidth.....so does everyone not just businesses, and why are you making this argument. Did we say anywhere that we were going to go after commercial nodes only. OK, it's a deal just tell me how I am to figure out which is which and I'll be very happy to comply.

 

Pneumatic, Lets run through this one. My machine asks the node for permission to access the network. (No altered files) The node sends the IP address to my machine (altering my files)......according to your own argument that means that the node is trespassing on my computer simply because I was dumb enough to leave the door open. Your node snuck into my machine and altered a file. I'll send the sheriff out to your house, you no good thief, how dare you trespass on my property, use and alter my resources.

 

No Pneumatic, in the real world this is a grey area where your position is just as "right" as mine. My argument is that the node owner is the only party currently that can remedy the situation. It is a free country and the frequency is all of ours. If you do not want to share your bandwidth then put up a gate.

 

The node owner is the only party with control and who wants control, so control away, but don't blame me for your incompetitance or stupidy because you can't operate the machinery you could afford to purchase.

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Simmer Down now Directionless.

 

I will grant that you may be correct in the sense that this is a "grey area" in the law, but just because someone is "stupid" does not give you the right to take advantage of them. You seem to be skirting the moral question with legal technicalities. Regardless of technical ease or the letter of the law I think the issue is simple: "If you are not invented to use someone elses resources then don't." I think that it is more of an ethical issue anyway. I agree with Mitch on this one every step of the way (including the open door analogy)

 

____________________________

The true traveler is he who goes on foot, and even then, he sits down a lot of the time.

- Colette

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Sounds like a lack of scruples (or morals), not a legal issue. But if you could prove that indeed you lost business as a result of someone using your (even ignorant open) network and playing with your systems, I'm sure you could win a lawsuit. That's a lot of ifs.

 

Back to the actual discussion, as I have heard, Warchalking is in fact a concept dreamed up two months ago. As such I don't believe there has been any worldwide adoption of this method of seeking out a Wifi connection, though the concept may take hold.

 

I've always figured there is a business plan in there somewhere. While in New Orleans I had the unfortunate circumstance to be in a hotel that not only charged per local call, but after an hour they would charge an additional fee every 15 minutes of use! If someone had pointed a WiFi connection towards that hotel I would have gladly paid a daily access fee, especially given a better signal.

 

I personally wouldn't share my wifi network with anyone. I'm a bandwidth hog. Besides, there isn't much use in suburbia for warchalking, unless you want to sit on the corner on some random street and use it.

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

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quote:
Originally posted by TeamWSMF:

Of course you would have placed a Bandwith CAP on all users from that method, right? I mean you did research the use of filters, limits and caps on users?


 

Most enduser W-LAN systems do not have this functionality. As for accessing an companies W-LAN, again seeing the W-LAN and attaching to it are one thing... actually using it to get out onto the internet is no different then if I see your door open vs walking in and watching your Pay Perview TV channels!

 

quote:

So if you left your system a mess and did not properly set things up, the blame would be on ....(and this is where we find out if things are being controled by individulas or folks crying for Big Brother to make thier decisons for them.)


 

The stupidity of some people in their setup of their wlan is comparable to the stupidity of someone leaving their car window down in a parking lot. Just because I can do something without forcing my way in DOES NOT MAKE IT LEGAL!

 

Rob

Mobile Cache Command

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quote:
Originally posted by Directionless:

 

"Close to impossible with most commercially available SOHO Wifi access points" is rubbish. If you can figure out the crap you have to go through to run any version of windows and virus protection. These units are a piece of cake. Your reaching here.


There is no commercial AP that I've seen that supports bandwidth caps of any kind. Besides, if you COULD configure a bandwidth cap why the heck wouldn't you enable WAP and MAC filtering while you were in there?

 

There are two issues:

 

1. Consumers and Network Admins are generally naive and need to be educated.

 

2. Using someone elses bandwidth with out their permission is criminal. PERIOD. If I accidently connected to your wlan because your office is down the hall and I don't notice, that is one thing. If I'm driving down the street and surf out through your internet connection that is a crime.

 

quote:

Businesses pay for all their bandwidth.....so does everyone not just businesses, and why are you making this argument. Did we say anywhere that we were going to go after commercial nodes only. OK, it's a deal just tell me how I am to figure out which is which and I'll be very happy to comply.


Most of my clients have unlimited BW BUT using some of their BW could result in them needing to increase it... weak argument but still valid, see point 2 above.

 

quote:

Pneumatic, Lets run through this one. My machine asks the node for permission to access the network. (No altered files) The node sends the IP address to my machine (altering my files)......according to your own argument that means that the node is trespassing on my computer simply because I was dumb enough to leave the door open. Your node snuck into my machine and altered a file. I'll send the sheriff out to your house, you no good thief, how dare you trespass on my property, use and alter my resources.

 

No Pneumatic, in the real world this is a grey area where your position is just as "right" as mine. My argument is that the node owner is the only party currently that can remedy the situation. It is a free country and the frequency is all of ours. If you do not want to share your bandwidth then put up a gate.

 

The node owner is the only party with control and who wants control, so control away, but don't blame me for your incompetitance or stupidy because you can't operate the machinery you could afford to purchase.


 

Again, wardriving or chalking in and of itself is NOT illegal. You connecting to my AP and getting an IP address is NOT illegal. HOWEVER if you knowingly surf the net through my AP or try to get at my workstations through my AP this is a crime. There is no GREY area, it is completely black and white. Perhaps crime is not valid in some areas but at the very least it is grounds for a suit.

 

Rob

Mobile Cache Command

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