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The whole tact of making any act seem CRIMINAL and WRONG is pretty much how repressive systems operate. Guilty until proven Innocent is the watch phrase.

 

Folks are using WIfis to do open node access. Wow imagine that, a LEGAL USE of open node access.

 

There will always be a mindset of control,of having to either control all aspects of a thing or lock that thign away so no one else can defile it.

 

Then there are folks who are a bit more open, given and colaborative , who dont see things like open node wifi sharing as a crime, who see things like open source software as a great alternative to software that bind the user to such legaly restircit EULA's actual use is nigh on impossible, who understand methodology like Bruce Schneier's Street Performers Protocol...

 

I think Ill continue to work with the one group and violently defend my right to not have to work with the other.

 

-tom

 

----------------------------

TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

 

[This message was edited by TeamWSMF on July 12, 2002 at 10:52 AM.]

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Ok I guess we can filter the entire argument down to this:

 

There are owners of wireless nodes who allow anyone to connect some publish their intentions some don't. In fact I know at least one of each type.

 

Some people do not want other people to connect to their network period.

 

The problem is that we cannot distinguish between the two.

 

These are free airwaves, why am I guilty of theft! In the land of the free why am I to assume that it is not free.

 

"Mobile Cache" how can you say this is black and white, it surely isn't in the state of NY as I could argue both sides of this case. Go back and read that law.

 

I agree with Team WSM, I live in a free country where I am innocent until proven quilty. Don't want to share your bandwidth, either don't get 802.11b or if you do SIMPLY protect it. The instructions are in the manual.

 

Just an aside, companies can and are doing whatever they want with our computers by burying clauses in End User Agreements. (Microsoft Media Player update), This isn't very "ethical" either, but they are following the law. I think that this or the KaZaa situation is wrong. These clauses shouldn't be buried but should be a seperate "Opt" in selection.

 

We need to revamp our laws. Not trying to hide behind grey areas. I am 100% in favor of 802.11b and protecting my network. I am not afraid of getting laws passed or changed.

 

But If I were to attempt to change this law or write one to cover it, you have to ask "WHO is able to control the situation?" Currently with this system it is the node owner, only.

 

There are no cases because it isn't likely winable for a node owner point of view. From a wireless user point of view there is no point.

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I am thrilled with the level of discussion in this string. Several well-informed guests presenting compelling arguments on a new subject to me. I don't know a thing about the technology being discussed, but I do have some thoughts on Rights and ethics.

 

The ninth and tenth amendments to the U.S. Constitution guarantee the rights being discussed here... If it isn’t forbidden, then it is still allowable. "Study the constitution so that you will know what rights they are taking away."

 

As for ethics, how would the owner of the network (speculatively the victim) view the actions advocated here? Would he even be aware that he is being victimized? And if he were to become aware of an outsider’s use of his network, how would he react?

 

Now back to the action…

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I spent a little time researching the links provided by contributors to this string to gain some additional insight here. From what I have seen, I am led to believe that the people objecting to 802.11b use are the big network providers [e.g. Time-Warner] undoubtedly in an effort to protect their own service revenues from competition. God forbid, somebody might compete with a corporate giant.

 

Additionally, I have noted some free service being offered in London, NY and Boston in bookstores, café’s and the like.

 

This, one might argue, is all about the almighty dollar.

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I'd been doing a search every once in awhile to see if warchalking would come up on the forums and was glad to see that it finally did! icon_smile.gif

Outside of the whole legality/morality of piggybacking, I thought the coolest thing about the idea was the revival/extension of hobo signs into the technological age. These symbols are stashed information overlayed on a physical space and have the potential to generate a whole new series of cool gaming ideas. A database of the warchalking locations in lat/lon format seemed like an immediately obvious connection of two hobbies and I'm glad that it's coming up for discussion on these forums. But, I think it would be even cooler if the vocabulary grew extensively and spawned multiple website codexes of the symbols. There is already a veneer of information overlying all public spaces in the form of directional signs and advertisements. The thought of a more clandestine sub-layer woven into the existing layer seems even more interesting to me. The possibility of imbedding touring guides, or treasure hunts, or any other sort of information seems extremely cool. Games could easily be carried out on a giant gameboard which would require a great deal of travelling around to check the game state, for example. But again, where geocaching is seen as geo-trashing by many, any extension of the warchalking concept or revival of hobo signage is likely to be seen as vandalism. icon_frown.gif But as long as the signing remained temporary by using chalk, it shouldnd't cause too many problems.

I'll just toss the idea out and see if anyone else thinks the idea could be expanded into another gaming activity.

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I'd been doing a search every once in awhile to see if warchalking would come up on the forums and was glad to see that it finally did! icon_smile.gif

Outside of the whole legality/morality of piggybacking, I thought the coolest thing about the idea was the revival/extension of hobo signs into the technological age. These symbols are stashed information overlayed on a physical space and have the potential to generate a whole new series of cool gaming ideas. A database of the warchalking locations in lat/lon format seemed like an immediately obvious connection of two hobbies and I'm glad that it's coming up for discussion on these forums. But, I think it would be even cooler if the vocabulary grew extensively and spawned multiple website codexes of the symbols. There is already a veneer of information overlying all public spaces in the form of directional signs and advertisements. The thought of a more clandestine sub-layer woven into the existing layer seems even more interesting to me. The possibility of imbedding touring guides, or treasure hunts, or any other sort of information seems extremely cool. Games could easily be carried out on a giant gameboard which would require a great deal of travelling around to check the game state, for example. But again, where geocaching is seen as geo-trashing by many, any extension of the warchalking concept or revival of hobo signage is likely to be seen as vandalism. icon_frown.gif But as long as the signing remained temporary by using chalk, it shouldnd't cause too many problems.

I'll just toss the idea out and see if anyone else thinks the idea could be expanded into another gaming activity.

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quote:
Originally posted by Directionless:

Ok I guess we can filter the entire argument down to this:

 

There are owners of wireless nodes who allow anyone to connect some publish their intentions some don't. In fact I know at least one of each type.

 

Some people do not want other people to connect to their network period.

 

The problem is that we cannot distinguish between the two.

 

These are free airwaves, why am I guilty of theft! In the land of the free why am I to assume that it is not free.

 

"Mobile Cache" how can you say this is black and white, it surely isn't in the state of NY as I could argue both sides of this case. Go back and read that law.

 

I agree with Team WSM, I live in a free country where I am innocent until proven quilty. Don't want to share your bandwidth, either don't get 802.11b or if you do SIMPLY protect it. The instructions are in the manual.

 

Just an aside, companies can and are doing whatever they want with our computers by burying clauses in End User Agreements. (Microsoft Media Player update), This isn't very "ethical" either, but they are following the law. I think that this or the KaZaa situation is wrong. These clauses shouldn't be buried but should be a seperate "Opt" in selection.

 

We need to revamp our laws. Not trying to hide behind grey areas. I am 100% in favor of 802.11b and protecting my network. I am not afraid of getting laws passed or changed.

 

But If I were to attempt to change this law or write one to cover it, you have to ask "WHO is able to control the situation?" Currently with this system it is the node owner, only.

 

There are no cases because it isn't likely winable for a node owner point of view. From a wireless user point of view there is no point.


 

the whole problem with your argument is that the airwaves aren't free, they're public. The difference is that when something belongs to everyone, no one person can say how to use it, so we delegate responsibility under the social contract to agencies that have the job of regulating the use so it will be (at least in theory) fair to all.

 

As with all public resources, the airwaves are regulated. Mainly by the FCC in the US, and there are laws about interecepting communications.

 

Also, you can tell whether someone intends their network to be open or not. Specially, you should assume they do not unless they tell you they do (this is the same rule that applies to access to private property. Assume it's closed unless it's posted as open.)

 

There are a lot of free wifi access points. They all advertise their existence. (Around here most of them are in coffee shops) That's different than unintentionally open access points.

 

Anyway, even if the access point is open, that does you no good, because in order to take advantage of it, unless you're simply accessing machines inside the local net, you have to steal access to the internet connection attached to the AP.

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MARTY:

Quote:

the whole problem with your argument is that the airwaves aren't free, they're public. The difference is that when something belongs to everyone, no one person can say how to use it, so we delegate responsibility under the social contract to agencies that have the job of regulating the use so it will be (at least in theory) fair to all.

 

No Marty indeed they are free unless regulated. In the 802.11b environment are baby monitors, Garage openers, phones, and anything else. In fact, If I invented a wireless birdfeeder that used this unregulated spectrum and put it in my backyard, I would have every legal right to use this Free, unregulated part of the spectrum. If it interferred with your baby monitor or garage door opener, tough, as long as my device was within the overall wattage parameters set forth by the FCC.

 

QUOTE:

Also, you can tell whether someone intends their network to be open or not. Specially, you should assume they do not unless they tell you they do (this is the same rule that applies to access to private property. Assume it's closed unless it's posted as open.)

 

This is entirely not the case. I should not expect a network to be closed. If it was closed then DHCP (your machine providing my machine with access in the form of an IP address would not happen. And why do you think people spent all that money for signs that say Posted NO Hunting or Trespassing???? Because it is a requirement on open land to tell people that it is private and you don't want them there. By a fence or by signs.

 

QUOTE

There are a lot of free wifi access points. They all advertise their existence.

 

Where??? I know four friends who use 802.11b and their network is open but they don't tell or advertise it. And they don't mind people using it.

 

QUOTE:

(Around here most of them are in coffee shops) That's different than unintentionally open access points.

Anyway, even if the access point is open, that does you no good, because in order to take advantage of it, unless you're simply accessing machines inside the local net, you have to steal access to the internet connection attached to the AP.

 

Again we come back to the node of the problem. I can't tell if it is intentionally or unintentionlly an open network. Since the only person that can control access is the node owner then it is incumbent upon them to restrict access BECAUSE THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO CAN!

 

Case in point: Athens Georgia just set up a free 802.11b network throughout their downtown area encompassing a 20 block area. So if I was there, and accessed a network that was not part of this network but in fact was an unintentionally open, How would I know? In this instance I guess you would say that the network owner knowing that it is a free area should protect there node???? You can't have it both ways.

 

In a free society let things be free unless otherwise posted.

 

[This message was edited by Directionless on August 06, 2002 at 06:22 AM.]

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What a shame that this thread is focusing on the legalities of wardriving.. pity that no-one's focusing on the geocaching possibilities.

 

How do we morally/legally find these things and record something to acknowledge that you've visited.

 

I'm willing to start the ball rolling. My AP is closed to public access, with WEP enabled and other little hoops to jump through before access to the internet is available. However, I've no objection to people finding my setup.

 

One thing that is "unique" about these AP's is their SSID, now making a note of that isn't a problem as far as I'm concerned.

 

So why don't we log these wifi-cache's and use the SSID as the cache that we need to find. Even the most security aware would hopefully not be too fussed about the world knowing their SSID, it's broadcast for the everyone to see, even if encryption is enabled.

 

Sound like a way forward??

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quote:
Originally posted by Directionless:

MARTY:

Quote:

the whole problem with your argument is that the airwaves aren't free, they're public. The difference is that when something belongs to everyone, no one person can say how to use it, so we delegate responsibility under the social contract to agencies that have the job of regulating the use so it will be (at least in theory) fair to all.

 

No Marty indeed they are free unless regulated. In the 802.11b environment are baby monitors, Garage openers, phones, and anything else. In fact, If I invented a wireless birdfeeder that used this unregulated spectrum and put it in my backyard, I would have every legal right to use this Free, unregulated part of the spectrum. If it interferred with your baby monitor or garage door opener, tough, as long as my device was within the overall wattage parameters set forth by the FCC.


 

I have to disagree with you Directionless, about your 2.4 GHz birdfeeder. Your bird feeder is a Part 15 device, and for those of you that haven’t looked at the bottom of your part 15 device, here’s what it says:

 

quote:

This device complies with part 15 of the FCC Rules.

Operation is subject to the following two conditions:

(1) This device may not cause harmful interference.

(2) This device must accept any interference received, including interference that may cause undesired operation.


 

(Unless you are a licensed amateur (ham) radio operator, and are operating the birdfeeder as a part 97 device in the 2.4 GHz ham band.) Your bird feeder would be considered a part 15 device and must comply with the two stated conditions above.

 

For those of you that didn’t know, the 2.4 GHz WiFi devices overlap the 2.4 GHz ham band. The FCC has proposed making amateur radio operators primary users at 2400 to 2402 MHz. Meaning that that if some one was interfering with an amateur radio operators use of that band (a WiFi user for instance), that person would have to stop making the interference. Not the amateur radio operator. There is an article on

e-Ham.net about it: http://www.eham.net/articles/3809

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W8TVi:

 

I did not lap with the HAM spectrum. But you bring up a point. If you screw up my wi-fi do I have recourse, I don't think so.

 

The two rules I was aware of but "Harmful" interference is would not be designed into this device, it would be designed to do what it needs to do, the interference is a undisered consequence. besides rule number two says: Deal with it!

 

I have alot of respect and admiration for you HAM guys as I have been at benefit of your network in the past. I believe 802.11G will fix your inteferrence problem.

 

My problem remains, I cannot tell if I am accessing an intentionally open or an accidently open network. There is nothing that I can do to determine the owner of the network to ask permission. All the controls are on the owner of the nodes control. SO am I a criminal for accessing the web through this connection. (I understand that if I were to be able to access any files on this nodes machine and did I would be in violation of the law) The owners machine gave me access (DHCP)!

 

Problem can be resolved only by the action of the node owner.

 

Ham it up!

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I do a lot of business travel. There has never been a place where I haven't been able to use my Earthlink account to access the net.

 

You don't need broadband to look up cache pages.

 

Another option is to look into Verizon's wireless mobile office stuff. Links you into your ISP using your verizon wireless minutes. I get 4000 minutes a month with verizon past 9pm. I could spend a lot of time dialed in on my wireless phone if I liked.

 

It's slow, granted but you can actually use it on the road from a rest stop that way as well.

 

--------

trippy1976

 

migo_sig_logo.jpg

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I think that the entire argument is been rendered moot. There are so many wireless "Hotspots" out there that it is impossible to tell who wants to be open and who accidently is open. Pick up the latest issue of Wired magazine (Oct). There has to be five or six articles about wireless.

 

Personally, I'm chalking and posting the nodes.

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quote:
Originally posted by trippy1976:

I do a lot of business travel. There has never been a place where I haven't been able to use my Earthlink account to access the net.

 

You don't need broadband to look up cache pages.


Very true... I even used my Earthlink account down in Australia for net access from the bed-and-breakfast. Wish I had been geocaching back then. icon_smile.gif

 

Directionless: when are you setting up your WIFI access point?

 

_____________________________________________________

> Martin (Magellan 330)

Don't have time to program and record your shows while geocaching? Get a TiVo!

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