argyle

I think that the entire argument is been rendered moot. There are so many wireless "Hotspots" out there that it is impossible to tell who wants to be open and who accidently is open. Pick up the latest issue of Wired magazine (Oct). There has to be five or six articles about wireless. Personally, I'm chalking and posting the nodes.

W8TVi: I did not lap with the HAM spectrum. But you bring up a point. If you screw up my wi-fi do I have recourse, I don't think so. The two rules I was aware of but "Harmful" interference is would not be designed into this device, it would be designed to do what it needs to do, the interference is a undisered consequence. besides rule number two says: Deal with it! I have alot of respect and admiration for you HAM guys as I have been at benefit of your network in the past. I believe 802.11G will fix your inteferrence problem. My problem remains, I cannot tell if I am accessing an intentionally open or an accidently open network. There is nothing that I can do to determine the owner of the network to ask permission. All the controls are on the owner of the nodes control. SO am I a criminal for accessing the web through this connection. (I understand that if I were to be able to access any files on this nodes machine and did I would be in violation of the law) The owners machine gave me access (DHCP)! Problem can be resolved only by the action of the node owner. Ham it up!

90 access points over Perth? Now which ones were intentionally open and which ones were not? http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/08/18/1239233&mode=thread&tid=172 Some humorous comments!

MARTY: Quote: the whole problem with your argument is that the airwaves aren't free, they're public. The difference is that when something belongs to everyone, no one person can say how to use it, so we delegate responsibility under the social contract to agencies that have the job of regulating the use so it will be (at least in theory) fair to all. No Marty indeed they are free unless regulated. In the 802.11b environment are baby monitors, Garage openers, phones, and anything else. In fact, If I invented a wireless birdfeeder that used this unregulated spectrum and put it in my backyard, I would have every legal right to use this Free, unregulated part of the spectrum. If it interferred with your baby monitor or garage door opener, tough, as long as my device was within the overall wattage parameters set forth by the FCC. QUOTE: Also, you can tell whether someone intends their network to be open or not. Specially, you should assume they do not unless they tell you they do (this is the same rule that applies to access to private property. Assume it's closed unless it's posted as open.) This is entirely not the case. I should not expect a network to be closed. If it was closed then DHCP (your machine providing my machine with access in the form of an IP address would not happen. And why do you think people spent all that money for signs that say Posted NO Hunting or Trespassing???? Because it is a requirement on open land to tell people that it is private and you don't want them there. By a fence or by signs. QUOTE There are a lot of free wifi access points. They all advertise their existence. Where??? I know four friends who use 802.11b and their network is open but they don't tell or advertise it. And they don't mind people using it. QUOTE: (Around here most of them are in coffee shops) That's different than unintentionally open access points. Anyway, even if the access point is open, that does you no good, because in order to take advantage of it, unless you're simply accessing machines inside the local net, you have to steal access to the internet connection attached to the AP. Again we come back to the node of the problem. I can't tell if it is intentionally or unintentionlly an open network. Since the only person that can control access is the node owner then it is incumbent upon them to restrict access BECAUSE THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO CAN! Case in point: Athens Georgia just set up a free 802.11b network throughout their downtown area encompassing a 20 block area. So if I was there, and accessed a network that was not part of this network but in fact was an unintentionally open, How would I know? In this instance I guess you would say that the network owner knowing that it is a free area should protect there node???? You can't have it both ways. In a free society let things be free unless otherwise posted. [This message was edited by Directionless on August 06, 2002 at 06:22 AM.]

Ok I guess we can filter the entire argument down to this: There are owners of wireless nodes who allow anyone to connect some publish their intentions some don't. In fact I know at least one of each type. Some people do not want other people to connect to their network period. The problem is that we cannot distinguish between the two. These are free airwaves, why am I guilty of theft! In the land of the free why am I to assume that it is not free. "Mobile Cache" how can you say this is black and white, it surely isn't in the state of NY as I could argue both sides of this case. Go back and read that law. I agree with Team WSM, I live in a free country where I am innocent until proven quilty. Don't want to share your bandwidth, either don't get 802.11b or if you do SIMPLY protect it. The instructions are in the manual. Just an aside, companies can and are doing whatever they want with our computers by burying clauses in End User Agreements. (Microsoft Media Player update), This isn't very "ethical" either, but they are following the law. I think that this or the KaZaa situation is wrong. These clauses shouldn't be buried but should be a seperate "Opt" in selection. We need to revamp our laws. Not trying to hide behind grey areas. I am 100% in favor of 802.11b and protecting my network. I am not afraid of getting laws passed or changed. But If I were to attempt to change this law or write one to cover it, you have to ask "WHO is able to control the situation?" Currently with this system it is the node owner, only. There are no cases because it isn't likely winable for a node owner point of view. From a wireless user point of view there is no point.

As usual Pneumatic your arguments keep nibbling around the same tired ground. The door example is clearly defined by Trespass law. It has no place in this particular argument. If you can load AOL onto a computer you have enough ability to configure a wireless router to WAP. I did it literally without picking up a manual with an Apple Airport. I used the manual to install the wireless card only, in my Powerbooks. I have a girlfriend who configured her LINKSYS in about 30 minutes with her Dell laptop. "Close to impossible with most commercially available SOHO Wifi access points" is rubbish. If you can figure out the crap you have to go through to run any version of windows and virus protection. These units are a piece of cake. Your reaching here. Businesses pay for all their bandwidth.....so does everyone not just businesses, and why are you making this argument. Did we say anywhere that we were going to go after commercial nodes only. OK, it's a deal just tell me how I am to figure out which is which and I'll be very happy to comply. Pneumatic, Lets run through this one. My machine asks the node for permission to access the network. (No altered files) The node sends the IP address to my machine (altering my files)......according to your own argument that means that the node is trespassing on my computer simply because I was dumb enough to leave the door open. Your node snuck into my machine and altered a file. I'll send the sheriff out to your house, you no good thief, how dare you trespass on my property, use and alter my resources. No Pneumatic, in the real world this is a grey area where your position is just as "right" as mine. My argument is that the node owner is the only party currently that can remedy the situation. It is a free country and the frequency is all of ours. If you do not want to share your bandwidth then put up a gate. The node owner is the only party with control and who wants control, so control away, but don't blame me for your incompetitance or stupidy because you can't operate the machinery you could afford to purchase.

So for ETA does the software use the Average (moving) or the Overall average to give you the ETA?

Mitch: I am willing to let this drop but read the law again. There is an "AND" in there that means you have to do the first AND one of the two other conditions. Your definition of Access point has no relevance if you don't do one of these things: 1. he does so with an intent to commit or attempt to commit or further the commission of any felony; or 2. he thereby knowingly gains access to computer material. Surprising as it seems in New York using your bandwidth isn't a crime unless I mess with your files or I use that access to commit a crime (felony). I literally rest my case.

Speaking of NY, This just in from a friend of mine: But, interestingly, in New York, apparently, grabbing bandwidth is not considered "computer trespass:" 156.10 Computer trespass. A person is guilty of computer trespass when he knowingly uses or causes to be used a computer or computer service without authorization and: 1. he does so with an intent to commit or attempt to commit or further the commission of any felony; or 2. he thereby knowingly gains access to computer material. Computer trespass is a class E felony. In fact, the computer crime law in NYS (5743--B Cal. No. 965) never even mentions the word "network!"

I am Italian my friend, sitting around and having a heated debate is called "Dinner" around here. Look, you bring up points that are seated in your point of view. I bring up points from mine. I think you are a little overboard in your comments, but coming from your view, I would feel the same way. By trespass I meant that I am not violating your property in any way (i.e. jacking in to your network, pinching a line etc.) I am only using a medium that I have a right (and the word is correctly used here as interpreted by Federal case law ans Supreme court rulings) to use as much as the nodes owner has the right to use it. If it were regulated or licensed to that entity I would not have this opinion or argument. It is not regulated and purposely so. It belongs to us all. Please no constitutional monologs. And thief is your opinion I am not stooping to calling you names my friend that is the sure sign of a weak position. You also said that I was "probably" using AirSnort or something. You are wrong And no one published it. It is also not germain to what I was addressing which is Hacking or Cracking your network. Which I define as taking overt measures to circumvent the protections you have put in place to your privacy. As stated I am not doing these things. Computers give us permission every minute of every day. It is a computer that decides to "Allow" you enter into an intersection by turning the light green and denying others by turning the light red. A computer gives you permission to post here. A computer decides whether to give me my cash at an ATM and not your cash. It is a computer that scans me for metal at the airport and denies me access to my plane or secure areas . It is the humans who instruct the machines that are excercising control. So protect your 802.11b network otherwise I assume it is free. This assumption is not any kind of Defense at all. Affirmative or otherwise. I have every legal right to use 802.11b anywhere I want as long as I am not trespassing on your property. I am doing nothing to overtly infiltrate your network in fact I am not even looking for it, I open my laptop and there it is. Public airwaves, unregulated, I don't have to assume it is free, it is there and my machine queries the node and gets a reply from that node that says "use me". Using your argument, I agree it is humans who issue the orders. I assume that it's human boss said it's free use it. Otherwise it would deny my access which YOU have every right to do Your DVD example uses DVD which is protected by copyright law. You may have no right to that material. Your argumnent of "fair use" could be litigated however and a judge would interpret the law. But copyright law is pretty well established. I agree with your personal crusades!!!!! I agree with your choice of Macs However you didn't address this issue which may be the strongest of them all: 7) There is no way for me to determine if this is a private network and not something like "freenet.org" site. There is another argument here as well. The nodes owner is in control of access using this unregulated airwave. The user is in NO WAY able to determine that this is a private network. How do I know that I am accessing a private network when the guy next door also runs a 802.11b net and it is free and open. It is incumbent, in this instance, for the person who CAN excercise control, do so. If they are to use 802.11b in a private manner. I have no way to determine if I am doin g something illegal, I have no way of finding the owner of the network. The owners have every means at their disposal to prevent unwanted use. With the assumption that "we all own the airwaves" "we all agree that you can use these airwaves in an unregulated manner" don't call me a thief a CEO mentality idiot because you were to lazy or incompetent to tell your wireless router that you didn't want it to be wide open for all to use. Innocent until proven quilty remember. Free unless regulated. Thief no, citizen yes, opportunistic you bet. [This message was edited by Directionless on July 02, 2002 at 02:42 PM.]

Seems like an aweful lot of thats illegal, you can't do that, etc. I am not a lawyer and as Tom says you would be surprised at what is actually "legal" and what isn't. Pnumatic drawing an analogy to my comments and the CEO problems is offensive and not germain to the topic. They have absolutly nothing to do with each other and as an analogy is weak at best. "Pandering" comes to mind. Here is my argument. 1) I am using public owned air waves 2) I am on public property, not trespassing in any way. 3) I have every right to use that frequency Connection issues: 4) I am not "Hacking or Cracking" a user id or password. 5) In fact my machine is quering the nodes owners machine for permission to access the network and the node is granting permission by assigning a I.P. address. (DHCP) Presumptive issues. 6) How am I to know that this use of the public airwaves is private? Am I to presume it is private or public, after all it is the public domain. 7) There is no way for me to determine if this is a private network and not something like "freenet.org" site. There is another argument here as well. The nodes owner is in control of access using this unregulated airwave. The user is in NO WAY able to determine that this is a private network. How do I know that I am accessing a private network when the guy next door also runs a 802.11b net and it is free and open. It is incumbent, in this instance, for the person who CAN excercise control, do so. If they are to use 802.11b in a private manner. Last: Search all you want I cannot find any case law regarding this issue. SO until there is clarity in the Law. My opinion is as good as anyones.

I use a Sony Clie PDA that uses a memory stick. I have a 32Meg stick just for geocaching. I rip the text from the site page and paste it to my Clie's memory stick. (the stick shows up as a removable disk on my desktop) I can scan the geocaching page every 30 days and grab the new sites. I go out about fifty miles and have maybe a hundred logged in to the PDA. I use a Garmin V and have all the coords input into the machine. Once I find a cache I can "find Nearest" and if I am not preped real well, I pull out the Clie and read the text of the page. I usually hit the "cheat" button before I copy the text so that I have that info as well. Don't need to worry about cell/web service or connections -Argyle

I am a big fan of 802.11b. My question is this. Is it illegal to jump someones connection? The airwaves are the property of the people of the US. These particular air waves are in the unregulated part of the spectrum. You could conciveably sit outside one of these businesses on public property (sidewalk, roadside, etc) and use a device such as a phone or walkie talkie that is tuned to the same freq and bring down the network while doing nothing illegal. It is the responsibility of the air wave user to secure their data. I can sit outside of that same business doing "intelligence work" and not be doing anything illegal by monotoring their network. I really do not have an answer whether jumping their connection via 802.11b is really illegal!

How about a simple fix. If a bug is not moved out of a cache in 60 days or in three updates it gets deleted from that cache. If you find the bug later and log it then the bug is "back on the books". Simple easy and I think that is what computers do best. I like the idea of the one stop logging of the cache and the bug as well. The cache owner should be able to delete a bug that isn't in his/her cache.