What do you think a Challenge should be?

[+Panther&Pine]

We've spent time on what isn't liked about Challenges and all that stuff.

 

So what about coming up with your personal list of criteria for a Challenge.

[+Panther&Pine]

*They should be location focused- you should be able to say to someone meet me at the Pig/the Clock/the Fish/at these coords.

*There should be something there to photograph/interact with without causing a cacher to break or bend local laws.

*They should not be 'Double Dipping'- so no challenges for find a specific cache or event.

*Challenges that include caching streaks/the DT matrix/ number of states/countries with finds should be left up to Groundspeak. And should be clearly marked.

 

*Challenges should not include finding specific cachers or TBs.

[+wimseyguy]

They are supposed to be the replacements for virtuals, not locationless caches.

So I agree with your list.

*specific location based on coordinates

*specific task (eating the cherry at MN art museum, balance Tower of Pisa, hike through a tunnel or cave, sit next to Red Auerbach statue in Boston, etc.)

*not a duplicate of an existing cache

*not a way to score a bunch of worthless points

 

I'd be OK if they did away completely with the worldwide aspect of them. I think that was the cause of much of the initial confusion.

[cezanne]

I think that there are not many criteria that everyone will agree upon. Personally, I do not like locationless challenges (worldwide ones), but others enjoy it. I do not like funny action challenges - other like it. Etc

Hence better options for filtering and searching will be helpful. The ratio of thumbs up/down is not sufficient.

 

Some aspects I'd like to add to already mentiones ones

 

Add

 

D/T rating

 

attributes

 

possibility for visit verification via codeword (could be obtained from information found at the location)

 

possibility for longer descriptions

 

separate multi type: would e.g. be very helpful for urban city tours

 

separate category for challenges where learning something is the main focus

 

separate attribute or category for challenges where some sportive action is to be performed,

like going for a hike, bike tour etc - that would help to separate those from "dare you type actions".

 

I would prefer if duplication could be avoided, but I see no way to obtain this goal.

[+Fianccetto]

I would like to see a 'dance with snails' worldwide challenge.

[+ATXTracker]

Challenges should be challenging. There should be something more involved than simply being in a particular location, unless of course the location is challenging to find or get to. Simply taking a photo of something is not a 'challenge' in my mind. Photos make great evidence that the Challenge was completed, but I don't think it should be the only thing involved.

[+t4e]

Challenges should be challenging. There should be something more involved than simply being in a particular location, unless of course the location is challenging to find or get to. Simply taking a photo of something is not a 'challenge' in my mind. Photos make great evidence that the Challenge was completed, but I don't think it should be the only thing involved.

 

why?....i am willing to bet that its not the intention behind them but rather this is

 

chal·lenge (chlnj)

n.

1.

a. A call to engage in a contest, or competition

[Clan Riffster]

Good question...

Assuming that The Flying Spaghetti Monster blessed me with his noodly appendage, and suddenly I find myself sitting at Jeremy's table, working on the concept. Jeremy asks, "What should these things entail?" My answer would be something to the effect of;

 

Sir, folks have been moaning for years about bringing back virtuals, conveniently ignoring the nightmares that come along with them. Let's take this as an opportunity to give them something as close to virtuls as we can get, without having our entire Reviewer staff go AWOL.

 

First off, they should primarily be location oriented. Go to this spot. That's been an inherent part of our company motto since Signal was just a tadpole. Second, folks should be given some task to complete other than just showing up. Let's leave that mostly up to the players to decide. Those who want difficult tasks can create them. Those who want easy tasks can create them. Heck, those who want silly tasks can create them as well. We'll let the other players decide if each one has merit, that way we don't need to strain our Reviewers with onerous "Wow" factors. Finally, we need to keep the social aspect that has worked so well for us in the past. Give folks the ability to create online logs, to tell their story.

 

To summarize, sir, Go to a particular spot as defined by GPS coordinates. Perform a task as defined by the challenge creator. Post a log about your adventure.

 

We could also use this as an opportunity to appease those 5 guys who are always begging for locationless caches to make a comeback. We could create a category called "Worldwide" challenges, which are not tied to any specific location. We could create different missions that folks have to finish, in order to get credit. These can be anything! They can be serious, such as performing a bit of CITO to give back to Momma Nature, or they can be silly, such as, oh... I don't know... Kissing a frog! The players would get to hand pick which ones they want to do, ignoring those that don't appeal to them. That should satisfy everybody!

 

(It should be noted that, for some reason, this fantasy includes Roy Orbison singing "All I have to do is dream" in the background.)

[cezanne]

Challenges should be challenging. There should be something more involved than simply being in a particular location, unless of course the location is challenging to find or get to. Simply taking a photo of something is not a 'challenge' in my mind. Photos make great evidence that the Challenge was completed, but I don't think it should be the only thing involved.

 

why?....i am willing to bet that its not the intention behind them but rather this is

 

chal·lenge (chlnj)

n.

1.

a. A call to engage in a contest, or competition

 

I agree, but still going to the Eiffel tower in Paris and taking a photo there is not a contest or a competition.

I feel that the term challenge is very badly chosen. Many people interpret challenge in that way

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenge

and to make things worse Challenge is also used e.g. in the German languages and there the usage is reserved for really difficult things or for competitions.

 

I think part of the reason why so many challenges ask for strange actions and that challenges with standard tasks get many thumbs down is the name challenge that's very misleading. The existence of challenge caches is only a minor issue here - the real issue is that challenge is something different than what is behind the idea of typical virtuals. Unfortunately, the proposal to rename challenges has already been declined.

 

Cezanne

[+Lime Candy]

A Challenge should involve finding a location using GPSr, and doing something there which can be verified by the challenge owner - take a photo, answer a question, etc. The challenge owner should be able to delete bogus logs. D/T ratings are a good idea too.

 

Ideally, I think a Challenge ought to go through a similar review process to an Earthcache. Yes, I know there is nobody volunteering to do this.

 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but introducing the Challenge concept with 'kiss a frog', making the challenges ownerless and thus completely open to abuse, with the completion numbers added to total geocache finds was a crazy idea. Three crazy ideas in fact. And I also think that ten minutes' discussion with a few seasoned geocachers would have identified all those issues. Pity that didn't happen in advance.

 

Edit: I also agree that using the word 'challenge' is confusing. Although I can't think of a particularly good alternative, 'new virtual' maybe?

Edited August 24, 2011 by Lime Candy

[GOF and Bacall]

Go to the specified location, complete the proffered task.

 

I think they should not include tasks requiring the finding of caches, waymarks, wherigos, or the meeting of people.

 

They should have some measure of permanency.

 

It would be nice if they lacked the cadre of sidewalk lawyers debating the definition of the word "challenge".

[+Tobias & Petronella]

Edit: I also agree that using the word 'challenge' is confusing. Although I can't think of a particularly good alternative, 'new virtual' maybe?

 

Why not call them Tasks.

[cezanne]

 

It would be nice if they lacked the cadre of sidewalk lawyers debating the definition of the word "challenge".

 

Personally I would not care how they are called. The issue with the term challenge is just that it influences which type of challenges are set up and how they are voted upon by the community.

 

Leading someone to a romantic, lonesome corner and asking him to take a photograph is not challenging in any sense of the word. So it is not surprising that additional conditions are added, like go there at 23:01 or go there with 5 other people each wearing a T-shirt in another colour etc

 

I can understand that the beach example is voted down/regarded as boring/not appropriate down when marketed as challenge.

 

I rather would like to see tasks like hiking up a mountain be regarded as multi stage concept (with several stages along the way) and not as physical challenge. In case the focus is on me just talking the walk, I would not feel bad when I split up the walk into parts and do not finish them on one day. If the same comes along as action challenge that stresses the physical part, then I would hesitate to participate when I need to split up comleting the task into parts.

 

I think that a major difference between the old virtuals and the new challenges is that the challenges are much more oriented towards competition and challenging someone than the virtuals have ever been. For the virtuals the idea was to have caches at locations where no container could or should be placed and not to involve someone into a form of competition. I should have mentioned this aspect already in my first post in this thread: I'd prefer if challenges have no flavour of competition and if issues like coming along with creative tasks is not an intended goal of challenges (or whatever they are called).

 

In my experience some of the greatest troubles with respect to geocaching and related activities come from unmet expectations, i.e. the frustration when people expect something quite different than what they get and leave disappointed.

 

Geo-activities might be a more neutral name than challenges. I do not claim that it is a good term. In any case, I would prefer it to task. if task, then maybe geo-task.

 

Cezanne

Edited August 24, 2011 by cezanne

[GOF and Bacall]

 

It would be nice if they lacked the cadre of sidewalk lawyers debating the definition of the word "challenge".

 

Personally I would not care how they are called. The issue with the term challenge is just that it influences which type of challenges are set up and how they are voted upon by the community.

 

Leading someone to a romantic, lonesome corner and asking him to take a photograph is not challenging in any sense of the word. So it is not surprising that additional conditions are added, like go there at 23:01 or go there with 5 other people each wearing a T-shirt in another colour etc

 

I can understand that the beach example is voted down/regarded as boring/not appropriate down when marketed as challenge.

 

I rather would like to see tasks like hiking up a mountain be regarded as multi stage concept (with several stages along the way) and not as physical challenge. In case the focus is on me just talking the walk, I would not feel bad when I split up the walk into parts and do not finish them on one day. If the same comes along as action challenge that stresses the physical part, then I would hesitate to participate when I need to split up comleting the task into parts.

 

I think that a major difference between the old virtuals and the new challenges is that the challenges are much more oriented towards competition and challenging someone than the virtuals have ever been. For the virtuals the idea was to have caches at locations where no container could or should be placed and not to involve someone into a form of competition. I should have mentioned this aspect already in my first post in this thread: I'd prefer if challenges have no flavour of competition.

 

In my experience some of the greatest troubles with respect to geocaching and related activities come from unmet expectations, i.e. the frustration when people expect something quite different than what they get and leave disappointed.

 

Geo-activities might be a more neutral name than challenges. I do not claim that it is a good term. In any case, I would prefer it to task. if task, then maybe geo-task.

 

Cezanne

 

I think a few of you are just plain over thinking the whole thing. If you remember that this is geocaching and that it is supposed to be a fun, family friendly activity with something for everyone then you will realize that there is no need to make a challenge difficult to complete. No reason to make it east either. Something for everyone's ability and interest.

 

I challenge you to try to look at it from a different perspective.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Edit: I also agree that using the word 'challenge' is confusing. Although I can't think of a particularly good alternative, 'new virtual' maybe?

 

Why not call them Tasks.

 

Or, GeoTask. A task is just something you're asked to do. A Geotask would be something you do at a specific location

[cezanne]

 

Or, GeoTask. A task is just something you're asked to do. A Geotask would be something you do at a specific location

 

I have brought up geo-task above, but it does not matter anyway. The suggestion to rename challenges has been turned down as many

other suggestions around challenges, also the one to be able to edit the description of the challenge.

The reason provided clearly demonstrates that it is the fun activity to be performed at the location and not showing the location, providing information

on it and learning aspects are what play the major role for Groundspeak. I'd rather do away with the acceptance logs then using them as argument that nothing can

be changed. It would be like prohibiting that a cache gets a new hideout because someone might have printed out the old description one month ago.

Moreover, there would be ways to deal with the issues that might be caused by changes. The part where the action is described could be separated from the rest of the description that could well stay changeable.

 

Cezanne

Edited August 24, 2011 by cezanne

[+dfx]

Or, GeoTask. A task is just something you're asked to do. A Geotask would be something you do at a specific location

 

"Hey, what you're doing here?"

"I'm geotasking!"

 

I like it already

[+uktim]

 

*not a way to score a bunch of worthless points

 

 

Are you overlooking the fact that many cachers are already using geocaching as "a way to score a bunch of worthless pooints"

 

It's not wrong to use caching in this way so why should it be wrong if challenges are used in the same way?

[+nikcap]

Good question...

Assuming that The Flying Spaghetti Monster blessed me with his noodly appendage, and suddenly I find myself sitting at Jeremy's table, working on the concept. Jeremy asks, "What should these things entail?" My answer would be something to the effect of;

 

Sir, folks have been moaning for years about bringing back virtuals, conveniently ignoring the nightmares that come along with them. Let's take this as an opportunity to give them something as close to virtuls as we can get, without having our entire Reviewer staff go AWOL.

 

First off, they should primarily be location oriented. Go to this spot. That's been an inherent part of our company motto since Signal was just a tadpole. Second, folks should be given some task to complete other than just showing up. Let's leave that mostly up to the players to decide. Those who want difficult tasks can create them. Those who want easy tasks can create them. Heck, those who want silly tasks can create them as well. We'll let the other players decide if each one has merit, that way we don't need to strain our Reviewers with onerous "Wow" factors. Finally, we need to keep the social aspect that has worked so well for us in the past. Give folks the ability to create online logs, to tell their story.

 

To summarize, sir, Go to a particular spot as defined by GPS coordinates. Perform a task as defined by the challenge creator. Post a log about your adventure.

 

We could also use this as an opportunity to appease those 5 guys who are always begging for locationless caches to make a comeback. We could create a category called "Worldwide" challenges, which are not tied to any specific location. We could create different missions that folks have to finish, in order to get credit. These can be anything! They can be serious, such as performing a bit of CITO to give back to Momma Nature, or they can be silly, such as, oh... I don't know... Kissing a frog! The players would get to hand pick which ones they want to do, ignoring those that don't appeal to them. That should satisfy everybody!

 

(It should be noted that, for some reason, this fantasy includes Roy Orbison singing "All I have to do is dream" in the background.)

 

I love it, I would have probably would have said the same thing.

 

I reality, I think the only think GS could have done better was release Photo Challenges first, let players get the feel of it and then roll out the Action and World Wide Challenges a couple of weeks later. I also agree, the Challenge term is not the best (and I think Jeremy said this himself), but, unfortunately, the term Virtual Caches was already taken.

 

I understand why the ability to edit the challenge after it's been accepted has been disabled, but it would be nice if the original creator had a little administrative control of the list. I can see at some point in the future, open hours at a location changes, or the "object of desire" is removed of changes significantly. When this happens, than what?

[+t4e]

 

I agree, but still going to the Eiffel tower in Paris and taking a photo there is not a contest or a competition.

 

correct, but the point i was trying to make is that the intention behind the name in our context it was not necessarily intended to mean "hard to complete"

 

I feel that the term challenge is very badly chosen. Many people interpret challenge in that way

 

well that's a whole different story lol...i agree, i have no idea what possessed them to call them the same as something that is already well established in the geocaching world, unless they plan to get rid of the "challenge caches at some point...until then though it sure created a lot of confusion

[cezanne]

 

I agree, but still going to the Eiffel tower in Paris and taking a photo there is not a contest or a competition.

 

correct, but the point i was trying to make is that the intention behind the name in our context it was not necessarily intended to mean "hard to complete"

 

I got your point anyway. What I wrote above was intended as comment that none of the meanings of challenge I am aware of really fits tasks like "visit the Eiffel tower and take a photo there".

 

Cezanne

[cezanne]

I think a few of you are just plain over thinking the whole thing. If you remember that this is geocaching and that it is supposed to be a fun, family friendly activity with something for everyone then you will realize that there is no need to make a challenge difficult to complete. No reason to make it east either. Something for everyone's ability and interest.

 

I challenge you to try to look at it from a different perspective.

 

It's not my perspective that counts, but those of the majority of cachers in an area and they never ever visit this forum and many no forum at all.

 

Challenges like these ones come up because people understand challenge in the way I described

http://www.geocaching.com/challenges/view.aspx?cx=CX1464

(You have to walk up a mountain in less than one hour and provide the exact time you needed. Only families with children do not need to be within that limit.)

 

http://www.geocaching.com/challenges/view.aspx?cx=CXDF

 

There are many other similar ones as well. I do not object against these challenges. I just feel that the focus in virtual caches has been a completely different one. It was not about a contest or a competition. Actually, I detest the competition aspect even more than the one where someone thinks that a challenge has to be difficult to be complete.

It appears to me however that parts of the community like the competition aspect.

 

Cezanne

[+Panther&Pine]

*A Geotask should be placed where a cache is not suitable, but it is still desirable to bring cachers to the location- a spot on the submission form for a reason why a cache would not be suitable would be awsome.

[+Vater_Araignee]

Edit: I also agree that using the word 'challenge' is confusing. Although I can't think of a particularly good alternative, 'new virtual' maybe?

 

Why not call them Tasks.

Even better Geotask and Location-less task. It says exactly what they are wile preventing confusion with what they are not.

 

 

~~~edit for grammar~~~

Edited August 26, 2011 by Vater_Araignee

[+kenttela]

I think the Challenges should be as they are today - gone! That's my 2¢.

 

Also, didn't Don and Phil sing "All I have to do is dream"?

Edited August 26, 2011 by kenttela

[+Panther&Pine]

I think the Challenges should be as they are today - gone! That's my 2¢.

They are still there.

[knowschad]

Challenges should be challenging. There should be something more involved than simply being in a particular location, unless of course the location is challenging to find or get to. Simply taking a photo of something is not a 'challenge' in my mind. Photos make great evidence that the Challenge was completed, but I don't think it should be the only thing involved.

 

Would you still say that if, instead of calling them "Challenges", they had called them "Virtuals"?

[knowschad]

Challenges should be challenging. There should be something more involved than simply being in a particular location, unless of course the location is challenging to find or get to. Simply taking a photo of something is not a 'challenge' in my mind. Photos make great evidence that the Challenge was completed, but I don't think it should be the only thing involved.

 

why?....i am willing to bet that its not the intention behind them but rather this is

 

chal·lenge (chlnj)

n.

1.

a. A call to engage in a contest, or competition

 

I agree, but still going to the Eiffel tower in Paris and taking a photo there is not a contest or a competition.

I feel that the term challenge is very badly chosen. Many people interpret challenge in that way

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenge

and to make things worse Challenge is also used e.g. in the German languages and there the usage is reserved for really difficult things or for competitions.

 

I think part of the reason why so many challenges ask for strange actions and that challenges with standard tasks get many thumbs down is the name challenge that's very misleading. The existence of challenge caches is only a minor issue here - the real issue is that challenge is something different than what is behind the idea of typical virtuals. Unfortunately, the proposal to rename challenges has already been declined.

 

Cezanne

+1

[+dfx]

Challenges should be challenging. There should be something more involved than simply being in a particular location, unless of course the location is challenging to find or get to. Simply taking a photo of something is not a 'challenge' in my mind. Photos make great evidence that the Challenge was completed, but I don't think it should be the only thing involved.

 

Would you still say that if, instead of calling them "Challenges", they had called them "Virtuals"?

 

Or GeoTasks

[+Panther&Pine]

Challenges should be challenging. There should be something more involved than simply being in a particular location, unless of course the location is challenging to find or get to. Simply taking a photo of something is not a 'challenge' in my mind. Photos make great evidence that the Challenge was completed, but I don't think it should be the only thing involved.

 

Would you still say that if, instead of calling them "Challenges", they had called them "Virtuals"?

 

Or GeoTasks

Feedback site

Edited August 26, 2011 by MooseJawSpruce

[+kenttela]

I think the Challenges should be as they are today - gone! That's my 2¢.

They are still there.

 

They are gone from my public profile which is fine with me.

[+Panther&Pine]

I think the Challenges should be as they are today - gone! That's my 2¢.

They are still there.

 

They are gone from my public profile which is fine with me.

That is more specific and seems to be the case.

thanks for the clarification.