PLEASE READ

[+twoodward15]

I grew up very close to the park. In this weather it doesn't look good. He has no access to food and likely no shelter. If he had a means to build a fire I can see how he'd be ok, but not without fire. Unfortunately, the chances of ever finding him there are slim. If he had found water, he could walk the stream out of the park to civilization, so I am almost ruling out him finding water. It's not looking good. Perhaps God has other work for him to do.

[7rxc]

I'm just getting finished a late day review... I was out on some personal items today...

 

Don't see anything much new on the news media... I did find a set of coordinates on one of them... the chaps were discussing a structure, that they thought was similar, but no one will believe that exists...

 

Sadly the whole 'blog' or comments section seemed truncated and I had a hard time making sense of them...

When I got back this afternoon, I 'massaged' the coordinates into something useable... and it plots on GE to a point in the general search area ( the ski trails)... I don't see anything recognizeable. There is something there, but is blurry when zoomed in... Given the proximity to a trail of some sort, I don't think it would be unknown if it is there... I have not been back to the comments to see what else I could pic... I notice that the original link is still up but those comments and a few others have been locked down... they were getting a bit accusatory and hostile... or it may just be that the new articles have displaced them for now...

 

I was trying also to 'redraw' that image with a little bit of refining and colour to see what it would look like.

 

Got to get my other computer going again... it has my 3d software on it... even the coloured image looks a lot different with a bit of shading thrown in... I realize that the wall is likely skewed quit a bit... and I can see that the length number might also be a poor 5, 6 or 0 depending on how you look at it...

 

I have not been able to figure why they think it is six feet wide... perhaps she described it that way... verbally, or in a text we haven't seen... but the only 6 I can see on that diagram is clearly 6" placed as to refer to the wall thickness (as far as I can see). Not clear on whether the 3' height of wall is for the outside or inside (from floor) reference. Also not clear on pattern of mosaic.. something about tears, I know one shape as 'drop' but what did she mean by 'tear', like a 'drop' or more like beaded water on a surface... or like flower petals...?

 

Guess we'll wait to see what happens tomorrow.

 

Doug 7rxc

[+thecaswellfamily]

Thank you for keeping us informed... I have seen NO coverage of this here in western Washington... but then again I don't watch much tv. Keep hoping it'll turn out alright, even as doubtful as it is, we keep hoping.

[+clumzyfly]

The paper has written on it

"Mosaic big rocks"

"giant tear drop pattern"

"rocks bright lacquer paint, cobalt blue, red, orange, yellow, apple green"

"black symbols on top of rocks"

"white paint"

"15' - 20' long"

"3' tall concrete or cemen"

"6" wide"

"christian hollow on side of forest only"

 

The only word I am questioning is "side"...the others I am almost 100% sure on.

 

The tear drop pattern I believe, by the drawing, is the overall pattern. All the rocks together make a teardrop shape. The 15-20 I am sure is a 15, not a 16 or 10. The pen was still touching the paper from the end of the 5 to the ' for foot or feet.

 

Just some observations. I may be wrong, but these are my thoughts.

[+Borst68]

Any word on this today? Have they found him?

Not from what news I can find online.

 

I grew up in the area and currently live 1.5 hours away. They have not found him. The weather turned rainy today. Along with the cold night temperatures, it doesn't look good.

 

Knowschad - You are correct. Sweetwater trail is in the NE portion of the park. The trail its self is quite flat but it drops off quickly if you venture away from the trail. The trail head is at a place called the Summit, which is obviously high ground. If lost in this area, heading down hill is not a good decision. To the north, it would be a tough hike to Salamanca. To the east, there isn't much there in the way of civilization until you get to the interstate.

 

I X-country skied there as a kid (many years ago). As long as you stayed on the trail, you were in good shape. There are several areas where the decent off the trail is quite steep.

[+FloridaFour]

I think it's great that some of you have taken so much time to see if you could find some clues to help this man. I grew up not too far from that area. There are a lot of old Native American structures deep in some of those old parks, some are obscurred from view by overgrowth, etc. I haven't been there in many years, but I do remember seeing some old structures in the woods near my house when I was a kid. I wonder if that structure could be one of those, I didn't see if it meantioned if it was a new or old structure, but you'd think if it was new, someone would've identified it by now. Something round and deep like that reminds me of a grain storage hopper or a cement kiln artifact. The colored brightly laquered stones have me stumped, though. That sounds more recent. Like something decorative, a fountain, religious altar, etc. Was it flat on the bottom or concave?

 

Prayers for that man and his family.

[7rxc]

The paper has written on it

"Mosaic big rocks"

"giant tear drop pattern"

"rocks bright lacquer paint, cobalt blue, red, orange, yellow, apple green"

"black symbols on top of rocks"

"white paint"

"15' - 20' long"

"3' tall concrete or cemen"

"6" wide"

"christian hollow on side of forest only"

 

The only word I am questioning is "side"...the others I am almost 100% sure on.

 

The tear drop pattern I believe, by the drawing, is the overall pattern. All the rocks together make a teardrop shape. The 15-20 I am sure is a 15, not a 16 or 10. The pen was still touching the paper from the end of the 5 to the ' for foot or feet.

 

Just some observations. I may be wrong, but these are my thoughts.

 

Thanks for the observations... that is what we've been doing here... observe and try to validate the observation. I've been going a few too many directions at once... your list is about what I had... I added the symbols at the bottom left of the colours... line with two cross bars and the line with circles above and below.

Some of the photos miss the bottom o.

 

I think that it will take someone better at handwriting analysis than me to nail that numeral exactly given the amount of text and numerals... I've looked twice since I read your post this morning... perhaps it's just because I do not make my numerals that way, I don't see the stroke the same... still considering. It doesn't change the overall measurements... very much.

 

I did also look at your description of the 'tear drop'... I can agree with that... the point toward the door way... I turned it 90 to the right and see the shape better... I was seeing it as a corner of a flat surface paralleling the the 'entrance'... I also hung up on the word 'pattern' which I would not use for a motif or design... to me that is a repeating smaller design... I was applying it to the coloured 'rocks' creating the mosaic... something like petals on a flower make up the flower... Still thinking about it... but thanks for shifting my focus a bit.

 

Still haven't found anything as to how they came up with the 6 foot wide dimension... I assume that she verbally described it that way... I'm also wondering about the 'laquer paint', I don't think it would last well, enamel yes... some might try laquer... there was a technique called Japaning... trouble is I don't know how it would work on outdoor rocks... the base surface would be touchy... but then I'm not into that art form.

 

As I said in my note... I interpret 'side' as meaning 'edge'. You missed a few words there...

 

"Christian Hollow into Valley on side of Forest only" , as in 'stayed out of forest' but that might be off. The sat pics of CH show one side of the valley (at their taking date) had conifers on one side and deciduous on the other... that of course is old, but what we have to work with. It also assumes that it is not a reference to the hiking trail, and it might refer to the creek in the bottom of the valley. We simply lack facts.

 

Most of this is an exercise in observation and researching... I'm only doing it because we might find useful things... for this situation, and working on refining the process for future events... Look up the DARPA balloon challenge a while back... Groundspeak had a team that fared quite well... That was an experiment in social networking as a tool for... I guess in mass problem solving... it was a search though...

 

I consider that a very useful application of what we do here, and of course in our 'other' lives.

 

Thanks again... waiting to hear more on that.

 

Doug 7rxc

[knowschad]

I'm also wondering about the 'laquer paint', I don't think it would last well, enamel yes... some might try laquer... there was a technique called Japaning... trouble is I don't know how it would work on outdoor rocks... the base surface would be touchy... but then I'm not into that art form.

I think you're reading too much into the sketch there, Doug. Odds are the interviewer put that word into her mouth when she said they were colored, anyway. But even if not, who, but a paint expert, would be able to say that the paint is lacquer or enamel?

[7rxc]

I think it's great that some of you have taken so much time to see if you could find some clues to help this man. I grew up not too far from that area. There are a lot of old Native American structures deep in some of those old parks, some are obscurred from view by overgrowth, etc. I haven't been there in many years, but I do remember seeing some old structures in the woods near my house when I was a kid. I wonder if that structure could be one of those, I didn't see if it meantioned if it was a new or old structure, but you'd think if it was new, someone would've identified it by now. Something round and deep like that reminds me of a grain storage hopper or a cement kiln artifact. The colored brightly laquered stones have me stumped, though. That sounds more recent. Like something decorative, a fountain, religious altar, etc. Was it flat on the bottom or concave?

 

Prayers for that man and his family.

 

Thanks for commenting... Given that Salamanca is almost all on reserve land... I agree with your observations.

I'm still of a mind that when found, it will be with NA help.

 

The description of the pic (it's earlier in the thread) says it was concrete as opposed to stone... of course that could be a surfacing only... stone might be the underlying structure... and of course stone is part of concrete, but you know what I'm getting at... cement over stone by someone 'improving' things. I got the impression that it was a flat bottom... since it says somewhere it was described as 'inlayed' which implys flush to me. I did notice in some of our referenced ruins pics, plus a few of other historic structures in the area... that local raw stone was used for most foundations, fences and so forth... the cement walls might have been a precursor to decorating it... hard to do art on rough rocks. Overall I'd guess someone found a ruin and has been fixing it up without the blessing of the park (IF it is inside their property)... Going to the NA influence a bit... I was thinking last night that this size and shape would lend itself to a 'yurt' type structure... of course yurt is a different culture, but where I used to live over in the Okanagan Valley, they used a semi pit structure with low above ground walls and a wooden frame roof for dwellings, a kekuli. Similar structures existed in Eastern areas as well but I don't have a name for them... Going to my ancestry, same thing for many european cultures... from soddies to stone houses... If it is in the ski area, some people elsewhere have made sunbathing shelters for spring... not to mention party spots... the possibilities are endless, and I don't know if everyone would offer up their own out of apprehension...

 

As for the purpose of such a creation? foundation, springhouse, even spa have been suggested. Who knows?

 

Doug 7rxc

[7rxc]

I'm also wondering about the 'laquer paint', I don't think it would last well, enamel yes... some might try laquer... there was a technique called Japaning... trouble is I don't know how it would work on outdoor rocks... the base surface would be touchy... but then I'm not into that art form.

I think you're reading too much into the sketch there, Doug. Odds are the interviewer put that word into her mouth when she said they were colored, anyway. But even if not, who, but a paint expert, would be able to say that the paint is lacquer or enamel?

 

I wasn't concerned by the term... paint as a general was what I focused on... Laquer can certainly stand the elements... they painted cars that way. I just don't see it on concrete or cement or rocks outside. I do try to read between lines for sure.

 

As for putting words into mouthes... yes... that is one thing SAR interviewers try to avoid... some Police and so forth are perhaps over zealous trying to get answers. Witness and witness to witness cross contamination is why they keep people apart and especially isolated from media. I don't know if you read the comments on the original post link before that station shut them all down... but it was getting nasty, especially in the face of at least two posters there that claimed to be relatives of the subject.

 

I lost the actual source as I mentioned last night, on another station, but I found one commenter posted a set of coordinates for something he and friends knew.. that he said was close to similar to the pic.

The first set was for northern Quebec... ha... another there added a more local N degree.

 

I've looked at that location... I can see that something might be there, or it might just be a tree blurred.

That whole thread was somehow distorted and missing extensions (it offered more... but didn't produce any).

 

So... +42 7'17.52", -78 40'56.22"

was originally 48, but northern quebec isn't right... they put local ASP value there.

 

This is not anything I can make out... and would never claim it as valid... it is very close to what I think are trails of the xc ski area, based on experience as a skier. But I mentioned it and thus have produced it.

 

Been typing to long...

 

Doug 7rxc

[knowschad]

 

So... +42 7'17.52", -78 40'56.22"

was originally 48, but northern quebec isn't right... they put local ASP value there.

 

This is not anything I can make out... and would never claim it as valid... it is very close to what I think are trails of the xc ski area, based on experience as a skier. But I mentioned it and thus have produced it.

Yeah... just off the trail, and in the right area, as we understand that to be! I sure wish Bing maps had Birdseye pics of that spot, but they don't.

[7rxc]

 

So... +42 7'17.52", -78 40'56.22"

was originally 48, but northern quebec isn't right... they put local ASP value there.

 

This is not anything I can make out... and would never claim it as valid... it is very close to what I think are trails of the xc ski area, based on experience as a skier. But I mentioned it and thus have produced it.

Yeah... just off the trail, and in the right area, as we understand that to be! I sure wish Bing maps had Birdseye pics of that spot, but they don't.

 

Sigh.. looks like they are standing down because of bad weather... still not clear whether that is full end of search for now pending further information or just today... On news station says it is going to continue and another says it's over early (was to stop Friday). They will of course always be ready to go back out when safe to do so... and if there is a reason...

 

On the brighter side, I finally put 2+2 together and figured out that the two symbols on the pic sheet were the ones referred to in " black symbols on top of rocks", I must be slower than usual... now if we can figure out what they represent there... it might help figure out what she drew...

 

I got the other machine running and have tried to do a 3d rendering of the sketch, but what is easy as a sketch is harder to translate to 3d. Not impossible though. I'm getting something... but the logic of that 'tear' didn't work quite as I hoped... maybe it wasn't the right thing... or I'm just tired... Mother Nature here dropped another hint that I need to winterize my search pack... Several inches of snow last night, more today, and it is still falling... and more forcast.

Mountains are fun places to live. Add hunters are still trying for game and we might have our own soon.

The last one was a month ago or so... which was coincidental with a bunch of high level caches being placed up the valley... but I haven't been able to prove anything... maybe I should check the logs...

 

I think I may limit this to the 3d render and watching... or answering some questions that were asked in one of the news comments... I like for people to have a good grasp of what goes on in this type of op.. I'd rather get people thinking about avoiding this in the first place, but it will happen.

 

Doug 7rxc

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

I'm getting something... but the logic of that 'tear' didn't work quite as I hoped... maybe it wasn't the right thing... or I'm just tired...

I read the note to show that the stone pattern is tear drop shaped, not the whole structure.

[+John in Valley Forge]

The search is being scaled back

[+Tequila]

The search is being scaled back

 

Scaling back a search is one of the toughest decisions a Search Master has to make.

 

Sadly, by this point, the odds of survival have decreased dramatically. Even a young healthy adult would be challenged to live this long in the wilderness during these weather conditions.

 

Let's hope the scaled back search is successful soon. Losing a loved one is bad enough. Not knowing what happened is even worse.

 

Our prayers are with the family and with our search colleagues in the area.

[7rxc]

I'm getting something... but the logic of that 'tear' didn't work quite as I hoped... maybe it wasn't the right thing... or I'm just tired...

I read the note to show that the stone pattern is tear drop shaped, not the whole structure.

 

Thanks for the comment... I was originally thinking a bit different... I have been trying to see how that type of design would fit into our sketch structure... works fine 2d but doesn't quite work in 3d somehow... Possibly that means the sketch is 'off' a bit... that is what this is about... reading between the lines to get something more workable... more time to concentrate on it now... search is winding down and we are getting snowed upon in great volumes... hope it does not take out the power.

 

Doug 7rxc

[7rxc]

The search is being scaled back

 

Thanks for that... It is official now...

 

Also thanks for catching that other thread...

 

I found it while Googling things... which reminds me that outsiders can find these as well, Everyone be on 'media present' decorum, please. I think this thread exists to hunt for and examine possibilities. I might add that the moderators have tolerated us a bit... It can relate to Geocaching, if a bit tenuously... This is a part of many cachers lives, and why some of us got into it in the first place... practising our skill set...

 

Doug 7rxc

[7rxc]

The search is being scaled back

 

Scaling back a search is one of the toughest decisions a Search Master has to make.

 

Sadly, by this point, the odds of survival have decreased dramatically. Even a young healthy adult would be challenged to live this long in the wilderness during these weather conditions.

 

Let's hope the scaled back search is successful soon. Losing a loved one is bad enough. Not knowing what happened is even worse.

 

Our prayers are with the family and with our search colleagues in the area.

 

You have that right! Thanks for saying it for us.

I'd add that NO search really ever ends until it is resolved one way or the other, even the 'cold case' types.

Being missing in the wilds (or even in town) is something that probably led to the 'no man left behind' principle prevalent in the military and paramilitary... and which has spread out via those alumni into just about everything else we do...

 

For everyone: This situation did NOT start with calling for help, the separation of the hikers, or with going for a hike... It started with assuming that a nice day would stay nice, and NOT preparing for it to change. Something we all tend to do, unless we let our training take over and correct that... trip plans and other basic items like a compass, map, basic survival tools and supplies don't take much effort to obtain, carry and learn to use... Do you always need them? Some more than others, and different situations call for different things.

Caching puts us out in the open, so please, be prepared to deal with whatever you might encounter...

 

Thanks for the comments... sorry about my plea...

 

Doug 7rxc

It started with

[+Tequila]

 

For everyone: This situation did NOT start with calling for help, the separation of the hikers, or with going for a hike... It started with assuming that a nice day would stay nice, and NOT preparing for it to change. Something we all tend to do, unless we let our training take over and correct that... trip plans and other basic items like a compass, map, basic survival tools and supplies don't take much effort to obtain, carry and learn to use... Do you always need them? Some more than others, and different situations call for different things.

Caching puts us out in the open, so please, be prepared to deal with whatever you might encounter...

 

Thanks for the comments... sorry about my plea...

 

Doug 7rxc

 

 

You never know when you are going to get lost.

 

My first search was for an individual who told his wife he was going to walk down the path from their cottage to a lake about 1 km away. He had lived in the area for years. 300 meters down the trail he looked back and realized the trail had disappeared. He phoned his wife to say he was lost but would be out shortly. At this point, if he had simply asked her to blow the car horn, he would have probably been able to get back out. But he didn't ask.

 

He spent the next 24 hours moving constantly. He lost his phone when he encountered a bear. It was mid August and he was wearing a T shirt and shorts. The mosquitoes were eating him alive. He never stopped moving and was eventually found almost 10 km away from his PLS and way north of the lake he was hiking to. When the helicopter found him, an ATV team had to run him down and stop him. He was suffering from bush fever, dehydration etc. Even when we got to him, he wanted to keep moving.

 

A simple hike turned into 30 hours of trauma for his family.

 

As cachers we are often hiking into unfamiliar areas. Having a small pack with a compass, map, snack and a fire starter just makes sense.

[7rxc]

I just found time to upload my 'simple' attempt to colour the pic in the news... I got bogged down with life and trying to figure the angles and stuff for a better rendering... on the slim chance this helps jog a memory...

 

This is not meant to be realistic art any more than the sketch was... I just added some shades of grey and thanks to suggestions simple coloured dots in place of the sketch circles... any suggestions... I think it's a tad bright myself, but it might not be so old either...

 

 

I'll try to see if I can get a rough coloured 3d soon, but I'm still not happy with the results... still find something doesn't quite add together...

 

Anyone have any ideas as to meanings for those symbols... my first thoughts were a 'not equal' symbol but the angle was wrong and the other was 'doubledagger' and the lower symbol I thought of 'divide'by or 'per cent'.

 

There is no indication how they were oriented on the rocks, so it could be anything... also don't know if it was all or some of the rocks, or how big they were... they meant something to someone at some time.

 

Doug 7rxc

[+DarkZen]

Update.

 

The search for a 92-year-old retired minister missing in a western New York park since last week is being scaled back. <snip> Doty says as of Friday, searches only will be conducted when new information is received concerning his possible whereabouts.

His possible whereabouts? This is starting to sound suspicious. If his daughter could remember all those details about that structure she could surely remember where she came out and how long she had been walking since she left him. I hate to suggest it but maybe she got tired of waiting for her inheritance.

 

And why didn't they use tracking dogs?

[7rxc]

Update.

 

His possible whereabouts? This is starting to sound suspicious. If his daughter could remember all those details about that structure she could surely remember where she came out and how long she had been walking since she left him. I hate to suggest it but maybe she got tired of waiting for her inheritance.

 

And why didn't they use tracking dogs?

 

Yes... 'possible '... If his whereabouts were KNOWN it would be over.

 

As for suspicious... Searchers don't go down that road... Police may, and others have already beaten that idea ragged in other now closed to comment sites... Leave that for the authorities please... What we are doing is trying to figure out what that sketch is of. That might lead to where... It is getting obvious that it does not exist at any known location in the park... it might at an unknown location there or not, that is what the search was for as much as the man... This is the time to try and figure out WHAT it represents... any ideas on that... ever seen anything similar... I think it was a disused structure that has been adopted by someone, perhaps not recently, for personal use... but what? It sounds a bit artsy... tear drop pattern and colour... perhaps a meditation place?

 

Thoughts? Perhaps Tequila would put forth on the dog use... and trackers, I've been learning a bit about the later, but more as a ground pounder for awareness (not to mess up a track if I find one).

 

I suspect that they did before/until conditions made it impossible. Dogs are best before an area is trampled over by searchers... there are other dogs of course that may come into play later on... but it's late fall /winter.

 

Doug 7rxc

Edited November 18, 2010 by 7rxc

[knowschad]

Update.

 

The search for a 92-year-old retired minister missing in a western New York park since last week is being scaled back. <snip> Doty says as of Friday, searches only will be conducted when new information is received concerning his possible whereabouts.

His possible whereabouts? This is starting to sound suspicious. If his daughter could remember all those details about that structure she could surely remember where she came out and how long she had been walking since she left him. I hate to suggest it but maybe she got tired of waiting for her inheritance.

 

And why didn't they use tracking dogs?

 

You're not alone there. Some of the reader speculation that was going on in the early comments on the newsfeed were hinting at suspicions of foul play, too.

 

I don't think the words that you bolded sound like skepticism to me, though. He could have wandered well away from his "possible whereabouts" since she left him there.

[+DarkZen]

Leave that for the authorities please... What we are doing is trying to figure out what that sketch is of.

And have been all week as has the rest of the country. Frankly, if no one here hasn't figured it out yet it ain't gonna happen. I do appreciate your junior modding but I think I'll add comments as I see fit.

 

Dogs are best before an area is trampled over by searchers.

That's not true. Check out the many tests they've been put through. The Mythbusters, for example, failed to throw dogs off despite every sneaky thing they could think of. But even if it were true, they should have sent them in first considering they had a starting point and her scent.

[+John in Valley Forge]

Update.

 

The search for a 92-year-old retired minister missing in a western New York park since last week is being scaled back. <snip> Doty says as of Friday, searches only will be conducted when new information is received concerning his possible whereabouts.

His possible whereabouts? This is starting to sound suspicious. If his daughter could remember all those details about that structure she could surely remember where she came out and how long she had been walking since she left him. I hate to suggest it but maybe she got tired of waiting for her inheritance.

 

And why didn't they use tracking dogs?

 

They have been using dogs, I saw them in one of the TV News clips. The conditions apparently were not good for them, I guess it had rained and there would have been scents from all the searchers.

 

I think the statement "when new information is received concerning his possible whereabouts" means that they have looked everywhere they can think of. The search is likely to be called off soon and they wont go looking again unless they hear of a new possible place.

 

When I spoke with Park police earlier this week, they were sorting through many many tips and leads. This is not the only internet thread of people Google mapping the park. They sounded quite grateful for the help. Given the passage of time, the change in the weather and the age of Rev Hamilton, I think that hope is all but lost at this point.

 

Edit: Oh, and in another TV clip a policeman was asked about foul play. He responded something to the effect of there are investigators looking into it, but they were still treating it as a missing person.

Edited November 18, 2010 by John in Valley Forge

[+Tequila]

In my area, Ontario, and I assume every area, all searches are considered criminal until proven otherwise. The most innocent of disappearances could be foul play. I am sure the authorities have looked at this search from that perspective. As casual observers, we should not be second guessing law enforcement or search teams.

 

BTW, that is one of the reasons that untrained civilian volunteers are often discouraged from helping. It is easy for a searcher to destroy evidence, miss clues and contaminate a crime scene.

 

With respect to tracking dogs, I work a bloodhound and bloodhounds trail instead of tracking. The basic difference being you give the bloodhound an article containing the lost person's scent and the hound "trails" that specific scent, which may be nowhere near where the person actually walked. Tracking dogs typically follow tracks that contain a combination of scent and crushed vegatation. It is far more complex than that but that is the gist of it.

 

BTW, as mentioned above, and demonstrated on Mythbusters, contaminated areas do not normally affect a bloodhound's ability to trail because they scent discriminate. In fact, the ultimate test for a hound is to lay a trail across a golf course on a Friday morning and have the hound work the trail Monday morning after a busy weekend.

 

In this situation it might be possible to scent a hound off the passenger seat of the car and trail the individual. However, dogs are not perfect and there is no guarantee.

 

A more likely use would be air scenting dogs to check larger areas. You would work a K9 into the wind back and forth in a grid. If the K9 picks up a human scent they will zero in on it. The same is true for cadaver dogs.

 

I have no idea whether the search teams used dogs or not. I would be surprised if they didn't, assuming they were available. Not all areas have dogs.

 

Again, we, as observers, should leave that sort of speculation to the professionals on the ground.

 

I am in awe of how this thread has brought together cachers from far and wide in an effort to try to identify the landmark etc. It truly shows the good side of geocachers.

 

Let's pray that there is a positive outcome and this gentleman is reunited with his family.

[knowschad]

I just found time to upload my 'simple' attempt to colour the pic in the news... I got bogged down with life and trying to figure the angles and stuff for a better rendering... on the slim chance this helps jog a memory...

 

This is not meant to be realistic art any more than the sketch was... I just added some shades of grey and thanks to suggestions simple coloured dots in place of the sketch circles... any suggestions... I think it's a tad bright myself, but it might not be so old either...

 

 

I'll try to see if I can get a rough coloured 3d soon, but I'm still not happy with the results... still find something doesn't quite add together...

 

Anyone have any ideas as to meanings for those symbols... my first thoughts were a 'not equal' symbol but the angle was wrong and the other was 'doubledagger' and the lower symbol I thought of 'divide'by or 'per cent'.

 

There is no indication how they were oriented on the rocks, so it could be anything... also don't know if it was all or some of the rocks, or how big they were... they meant something to someone at some time.

 

Doug 7rxc

I am beginning to wonder if this were just something that she dreamt about the night before hiking out, and confused with reality. I have a very hard time imagining that something like that could exist without having been discovered before, and if it had been discovered, it would have been something discussed at length by many. It isn't the sort of thing you would go home and forget about.

[+Castle Mischief]

I am beginning to wonder if this were just something that she dreamt about the night before hiking out, and confused with reality. I have a very hard time imagining that something like that could exist without having been discovered before, and if it had been discovered, it would have been something discussed at length by many. It isn't the sort of thing you would go home and forget about.

 

I've felt the same for a while now. I didn't want to say it out loud because, well I hoped it wouldn't be true. It sounds like a really thing to go and see. Really cool things in the woods are photographed and photographs end up on the internet and get talked about on blogs and people sometimes put geocaches near them.

[+DarkZen]

I am beginning to wonder if this were just something that she dreamt about the night before hiking out, and confused with reality. I have a very hard time imagining that something like that could exist without having been discovered before, and if it had been discovered, it would have been something discussed at length by many. It isn't the sort of thing you would go home and forget about.

Yeah, me too. I find it hard to believe that there is some unfound object of that size. It seems no matter how far off trail I go and discover some cool thing (and place a cache there, natch ) someone will invariably log, "I've always loved this place". Still it's possible. I'm sending good thoughts that he's OK but at this point it looks grim. If he has passed, I hope they find his body soon to give closure to the family.

[+Borst68]

Update: Authorities called off the search on Thursday. Doesn't look good at this point. News clip

[+Sol seaker]

Has anyone tried emailing geocachers who have hides in that area to see if they've seen this concrete thing?

 

The one who started this thread had the right idea: a geocacher is likely to have seen it. But how many actually read these forums? Very few considering how many play.

 

perhaps someone in that area can email the cache owners of the area and see if anyone has seen it.

[+Borst68]

Has anyone tried emailing geocachers who have hides in that area to see if they've seen this concrete thing?

 

The one who started this thread had the right idea: a geocacher is likely to have seen it. But how many actually read these forums? Very few considering how many play.

 

perhaps someone in that area can email the cache owners of the area and see if anyone has seen it.

 

Locally this story is all over the news. I am sure local cachers are aware. One cacher who has a cache in the area disabled it during a search. GC1PYJX This story has also appeared on local caching forums. The local news media has done a good job raising awareness of the situation.

[knowschad]

Update: Authorities called off the search on Thursday. Doesn't look good at this point. News clip

Given the rain and the cold temperatures, and that the pastor almost certainly had no survival equipment at all, not even rain gear, hypothermia would have set in days ago. He's 92 years old, alone in the woods with no protection, for a week? Nope. Looks pretty dismal, I'm afraid.

[+clumzyfly]

This is a part of many cachers lives, and why some of us got into it in the first place... practising our skill set...

 

We use GPS with our dogs in training and at a seminar someone introduced me to geocaching.

[knowschad]

Today's news: Park Police End Search.

 

By the way, the article concludes with:

There are no red flags to indicate foul play," he said, adding "there is nothing to say other than it's an unfortunate end to a hike on a nice day."

[+Ecylram]

Today's news: Park Police End Search.

 

By the way, the article concludes with:

There are no red flags to indicate foul play," he said, adding "there is nothing to say other than it's an unfortunate end to a hike on a nice day."

Thanks for the updates that you and others have provided.

 

It's greatly appreciated.

[ATMouse]

For the lack of a pack of matches, this man is dead.

 

A simple small fire with some wettish materials to make smoke would have brought rescuers to him.

 

Carry the 10 essentials with you when you go off into the woods:

 

Ten Essentials

1. Map - there are maps available at the entrances to ASP

2. Compass or GPSr

3. Flashlight/headlamp (extra careful types can have an extra set of batteries)

4. Extra food - A snickers bar works

5. Extra clothing - a fleece jacket, for instance

6. Rain gear ( always carry rain gear even if the sun is out) - a nylon shelled fleece jacket does double duty

7. First aid supplies (be sure to include an extra day of any medication you are taking or might need in an emergency) Know how to use it.

8. Pocket knife or leatherman tool

9. Matches (stored in a water tight container or a butane lighter)

10. Fire starter - I carry small candle stubs from tapered candles - I cut them up to 1" sizes and pre-burn the ends to facilitate lighting.

 

And I add a large plastic garbage bag.

 

This sounds like a huge list - it is NOT; except for the fleece jacket/shell, you can put all of these into a fanny pack.

[+John in Valley Forge]

Not to make light of the angst that the family must be going through, but how do the searchers deal with the emotions?

I think about how saddened and frustrated I am at this, and I just been sitting here looking at google maps and flicker vacation photos. Can you imagine how it must feel to be on the ground searching and to finally say "that's it, search is over, we didn't find him".

 

You SAR folks, how do you cope with that?

[7rxc]

Not to make light of the angst that the family must be going through, but how do the searchers deal with the emotions?

I think about how saddened and frustrated I am at this, and I just been sitting here looking at google maps and flicker vacation photos. Can you imagine how it must feel to be on the ground searching and to finally say "that's it, search is over, we didn't find him".

 

You SAR folks, how do you cope with that?

 

Being slightly flippant... I would say when we figure out how, I'll let you know... Being serious, it's like any stressful situation... the first and easiest way to deal with it, for most of those I know is to FIND the subject alive and well... we like to OD on success... In this case it will rub most of those searchers the wrong way... I mentioned before that NO search ends without finding the subject... even if it takes years and an accidental discovery... Of course that is idealistic, there are many times with no resolution, and it goes on into cold case territory... By example, on a criminal case, they seem to have new evidence in the Aruba dissappearance after several years... not quite the same thing but close...

 

As for emotions and stuff like that... most SAR and other agencies have access to counselling services for PTSD.. and other things... it doesn't even have to be a serious case... some don't deal with the stress well, for the most part those people who don't, either don't come out, or don't last long... Another point is that it is usually something spotted by your team leader or similar... the person experiencing stress is usually the LAST person to realize something is wrong and seek help. In BC most SAR people get a training session on recognizing it in yourself and others as part of the training. I got into this event as a bit of an exercise to see what I/we could find electronically... I had to turn it off today and clear my mind out... and I'm quite a ways away physically... but emotionally I feel like I'm there, and quite disappointed that things have gone the way they have so far... I pray for the subject and his family, especially the lady who was involved, and hope they get the support they require.

 

Doug 7rxc

[7rxc]

For the lack of a pack of matches, this man is dead.

 

A simple small fire with some wettish materials to make smoke would have brought rescuers to him.

 

Carry the 10 essentials with you when you go off into the woods:

 

And I add a large plastic garbage bag.

 

This sounds like a huge list - it is NOT; except for the fleece jacket/shell, you can put all of these into a fanny pack.

 

Thanks for the list of 10 Essentials. Add leave a trip plan with someone trustworthy, the deeper in you are planning on going, the more detailed it should be... and CANCEL it when you come out... I don't know how many times people go home safely and don't tell the holder of the trip plan that they are back!

 

There is also no confirmation of the subject status at this time other than missing... despite the fact that that is likely the case... unless I've missed more than I thought.

 

Doug 7rxc

[ATMouse]

For the lack of a pack of matches, this man is dead.

 

A simple small fire with some wettish materials to make smoke would have brought rescuers to him.

 

Carry the 10 essentials with you when you go off into the woods:

 

And I add a large plastic garbage bag.

 

This sounds like a huge list - it is NOT; except for the fleece jacket/shell, you can put all of these into a fanny pack.

 

Thanks for the list of 10 Essentials. Add leave a trip plan with someone trustworthy, the deeper in you are planning on going, the more detailed it should be... and CANCEL it when you come out... I don't know how many times people go home safely and don't tell the holder of the trip plan that they are back!

 

There is also no confirmation of the subject status at this time other than missing... despite the fact that that is likely the case... unless I've missed more than I thought.

 

Doug 7rxc

 

You are right - A plan of where you are going and a time to come out and someone to notify.

 

Happens I was trained for SAR in the long-ago and far away, back in the 1980's.

 

I live in the general area. There have been a series of low 20° nights and nights of rain and frost and freezing rain. If this man is alive - with a sweater and no rain gear and no water and no shelter - it will be a miracle I have never before witnessed.

 

I doubt that a younger person in the same conditions would survive.

 

I have lots of questions about this whole event, but I also know that there were buckets of trained folk on the gound here. I also know the Park generally - I have had caches there - and it is a big place, wild and rough and dangerous if you get off the trails.

 

I suppose I should have posted "probably dead". That post isn't going to change a thing.

 

I'm thinking a hunter will find him, maybe even today. Gun season opens this morning in NYS.

[+briansnat]

For the lack of a pack of matches, this man is dead.

 

A simple small fire with some wettish materials to make smoke would have brought rescuers to him.

 

Carry the 10 essentials with you when you go off into the woods:

 

Ten Essentials

1. Map - there are maps available at the entrances to ASP

2. Compass or GPSr

3. Flashlight/headlamp (extra careful types can have an extra set of batteries)

4. Extra food - A snickers bar works

5. Extra clothing - a fleece jacket, for instance

6. Rain gear ( always carry rain gear even if the sun is out) - a nylon shelled fleece jacket does double duty

7. First aid supplies (be sure to include an extra day of any medication you are taking or might need in an emergency) Know how to use it.

8. Pocket knife or leatherman tool

9. Matches (stored in a water tight container or a butane lighter)

10. Fire starter - I carry small candle stubs from tapered candles - I cut them up to 1" sizes and pre-burn the ends to facilitate lighting.

 

And I add a large plastic garbage bag.

 

This sounds like a huge list - it is NOT; except for the fleece jacket/shell, you can put all of these into a fanny pack.

 

Add a loud whistle to that list. A whistle can be heard much farther away than the human voice.

[+Tequila]

 

You SAR folks, how do you cope with that?

 

 

Sometimes we don't. If you research the Oklahoma City Bombing (obviously not the same situation as this missing person case), you will find that over half of the civilian K9 search teams retired from SAR shortly thereafter.

 

At the time, civilian/volunteer teams did not have the same access to CISM(Crititcal Incident Stress Mgt) as professional teams. In the years since, a lot has changed in SAR and as Doug pointed out above, CISM is a key component of most if not all SAR teams.

 

Having said that, there is nothing quite like the euphoria of being part of a group that finds the missing person alive. For me, there is the added thrill of being able to see a dog doing what it was bred to do. If you have never seen a bloodhound work its way through whatever, and lead the team to a small child curled up under a tree in the woods, you are truly missing something.

 

 

 

Add a loud whistle to that list. A whistle can be heard much farther away than the human voice.

 

 

Specifically a Fox 40 whistle. Do NOT carry a whistle with a pea inside it. They tend to malfunction in cold weather. A lot of SAR teams and police forces hand out Fox 40's at school programs.

 

Another wise idea is to leave a photo of your boot print on the dash of your vehicle. It can help SAR Techs to eliminate tracks.

[+briansnat]

 

You SAR folks, how do you cope with that?

 

 

Sometimes we don't. If you research the Oklahoma City Bombing (obviously not the same situation as this missing person case), you will find that over half of the civilian K9 search teams retired from SAR shortly thereafter.

 

At the time, civilian/volunteer teams did not have the same access to CISM(Crititcal Incident Stress Mgt) as professional teams. In the years since, a lot has changed in SAR and as Doug pointed out above, CISM is a key component of most if not all SAR teams.

 

Having said that, there is nothing quite like the euphoria of being part of a group that finds the missing person alive. For me, there is the added thrill of being able to see a dog doing what it was bred to do. If you have never seen a bloodhound work its way through whatever, and lead the team to a small child curled up under a tree in the woods, you are truly missing something.

 

 

 

Add a loud whistle to that list. A whistle can be heard much farther away than the human voice.

 

 

Specifically a Fox 40 whistle. Do NOT carry a whistle with a pea inside it. They tend to malfunction in cold weather. A lot of SAR teams and police forces hand out Fox 40's at school programs.

 

 

 

Or a Storm Whistle. Those things are LOUD. Hurts my ears when I blow it. I'm a soccer referee and use a Fox 40 and it is loud, but not nearly as loud as the Storm Whistle.

 

Another wise idea is to leave a photo of your boot print on the dash of your vehicle. It can help SAR Techs to eliminate tracks.

 

Now that's something I never thought of.

Edited November 20, 2010 by briansnat

[7rxc]

Glad to see that the discussion has swung to 'how not to'.

 

This is one source of a trip plan... we suggest it to people. It is a Canadian Site, but it collects information that is required for an initial filling in of a Missing Person Questionaire form. That is to save time and make sure that the questions are answered by someone who should know the correct answers... much better, sometimes.

 

Trip Plan

 

Thankfully the information isn't different where ever you are or are from! Most local SAR groups have something similar that they have customized for their own purposes... and they are often available through outdoor stores, campgrounds, Tourism departments and yep... the authorities, Park or Police etc.

 

Of course if you are only going to the park down the street, you might not want to do that... but DO tell someone where you are going, returning etc. Just like you tell the kids or your parents told you...

 

Remember to suspend the plan when you return.

 

Doug 7rxc

[7rxc]

Add a loud whistle to that list. A whistle can be heard much farther away than the human voice.

Another wise idea is to leave a photo of your boot print on the dash of your vehicle. It can help SAR Techs to eliminate tracks.

Now that's something I never thought of.

 

The whistle not only carries further, but can be heard and recognized when a voice won't/can't be...

we use them for signals near waterfalls etc. when the noise blocks anything else but radio, and often that cannot be heard either without a headset. Also consider that a whistle will make a noise, even if soft, long after the voice gives out on a person... a soft tweet is much better than a hoarse whisper.. and can be made as long as you are breathing and can hold the whistle in your lips.

 

The boot image is a good idea... providing you don't wear different shoes, make sure it matches your choice for the trip. there are outline cards you can sketch on as well if photos aren't possible.

 

Doug 7rxc

[+NYPaddleCacher]

 

 

 

Add a loud whistle to that list. A whistle can be heard much farther away than the human voice.

 

 

Specifically a Fox 40 whistle. Do NOT carry a whistle with a pea inside it. They tend to malfunction in cold weather. A lot of SAR teams and police forces hand out Fox 40's at school programs.

 

 

 

Or a Storm Whistle. Those things are LOUD. Hurts my ears when I blow it. I'm a soccer referee and use a Fox 40 and it is loud, but not nearly as loud as the Storm Whistle.

 

 

I have a strorm whistle (though mine is bright orange that I keep attached to my PFD that I wear everytime I get into a kayak or canoe.

 

I believe it actually saved one of more kayakers in a group I was paddling with on a full moon paddle from getting run over by a power boat. Even though everyone in kayaks had lights and were flashing at an approaching boat it became obvious that the operator wasn't watching in the direction they were traveling. I blew a couple of loud whistles and the boat immediately stopped and someone on the boat said "look at all those lights ahead". The boat was about 200' away when it stopped.

[+zsdeng15014]

For the lack of a pack of matches, this man is dead.

 

A simple small fire with some wettish materials to make smoke would have brought rescuers to him.

 

Carry the 10 essentials with you when you go off into the woods:

 

Ten Essentials

1. Map - there are maps available at the entrances to ASP

2. Compass or GPSr

3. Flashlight/headlamp (extra careful types can have an extra set of batteries)

4. Extra food - A snickers bar works

5. Extra clothing - a fleece jacket, for instance

6. Rain gear ( always carry rain gear even if the sun is out) - a nylon shelled fleece jacket does double duty

7. First aid supplies (be sure to include an extra day of any medication you are taking or might need in an emergency) Know how to use it.

8. Pocket knife or leatherman tool

9. Matches (stored in a water tight container or a butane lighter)

10. Fire starter - I carry small candle stubs from tapered candles - I cut them up to 1" sizes and pre-burn the ends to facilitate lighting.

 

And I add a large plastic garbage bag.

 

This sounds like a huge list - it is NOT; except for the fleece jacket/shell, you can put all of these into a fanny pack.

What's a fanny pack?

[knowschad]

What's a fanny pack?

Got Google?

[+GeoGeeBee]

The phrase "fanny pack" must sound really odd to the right-pondians among us.

 

Just sayin.