Purely Discussion

[+Gralorn]

Since the arrival of the IPhone, Blackberry and other similar mobile phones that have the ability to connect to the internet I have noticed that some series of caches are now having a bonus cache that can only be solved with the ability to link to the internet. This requirement usually is to either find values of things collected or decode a certain encryption of information gained whilst walking around the series. If one does not possess one of these all singing and dancing technical pieces and lives fairly close to the series they of course have the opportunity to nip home and do a little Googling, then return to the area to retrieve the bonus. However if one does not have a 'magic' phone, lap top, PDA, notebook, or IPad and lives many miles away then the opportunity of a bonus cache for a series is in my opinion fruitless and frustrating.

In my personal opinion I feel that a bonus cache, if there is going to be one after all there is not really a requirement, should be at least obtainable to either a local or visiting geocacher on the ground at the time of caching without having to have the ability of being able to connect to the Internet for further required information. Several people have these phones as a work requirement and actually use them for caching which is a real bonus, but many cachers do not have them and have already had to take out a second mortgage in order to buy a good GPS, let alone taking on the additional expence of a IPhone, IPad, Lap Top or PDA in order to solve a 'Bonus' cache! What is the general feeling?

[+Delta68]

I was under the impression (ie in an answer to a question I asked Deci about a year ago) that these sort of caches were no longer allowed.

Existing ones like the GC1F4NV Chiltern Hundred Bonus were Grandfathered in though

 

Which newer caches are you referring to?

 

 

Mark

[+abanazar]

As there is no formal distinction that I know of between a "?" cache that is standalone versus a "?" cache that is at the end of a series/ring, I'm not sure that any restrictions could/should be enforced. However, if "external" information is required for the end-of-a-series cache, I think it should be mentioned or at least hinted at in the cache description so that people can come prepared with the required information (if that's possible a priori), else be prepared to DNF it if they don't have all the in-field technology. Since I don't have such technology, it may sway my decision to attempt the series, or not, depending on how the rest on the trail looks. I haven't come across this phenomenon myself, although you can count the number of rings/series that we've done on one hand

[+Haggis Hunter]

Being a person who can't afford any of the extra pieces of kit that Gralorn has described I have to agree that it can be frustrating not being able access the internet whilst away. Never mind needing to access whilst on the ground so that you can find the last cache of a series. I suppose if I came across such a series then I would have no option but to ignore the chance of the bonus. Which would be a shame as sometimes the bonus is designed to be the best cache of the series.

[+The Other Stu]

In all honesty, even though I own one a decent smartphone, when I'm caching, I don't want to be searching the interweb.

 

When caching, I use my Colorado for caching. I use my phone for calling PAFs.

 

I would like to hope that Bonuses information can be got on the trail rather than online.

[+The Chaos Crew]

I can’t say that I’ve come across this exact situation – the serieses (is that a word?) that I have seen with bonus caches tend to have parts of the coordinates scattered around the other caches so by the time you have done all the standard caches you have the end co-ords for the bonus, no smartphone required

 

However I did do a multi-cache not long back where the implication was that you just needed to go to a sign and get some info from it and then calculate the end co-ords of the cache through simple substitution. However when we got there, some of the clues to solve required knowledge not found on the sign – eg a list of town names and mileages to those towns, and the clue didn’t say “how many miles to Shrewsbury?” , it said “how many miles to Charles Darwin’s birthplace?”….which is all well and good if you happen to know that Darwin was born in Shrewsbury, but not all that straightforward if you don’t

 

I didn’t have a smartphone when we did that cache ( although have since upgraded and I loooove my Android :laughing: ), but luckily there was a reasonable signal there and I managed to coax my old, normal mobile phone onto google (painfully slowly!) and looked up the answers required.

 

Had I not been able to do that, I guess I would have been fairly fed up as the cache was a long way from home and we probably would have had to give up. Or guess some of the answers.

 

So perhaps it would be good to see an indication on the cache page that some general knowledge qus will need to be answered in the field and therefore mobile internet access would be advantageous?

[+Graculus]

A multi-cache should be 'sovleable' from the information on the cache page. So if you print it out and take it into the field you'll be able to find the cache (hopefully). An unknown cache on the other hand may require you to do some additional work such as Internet research. Basically if you print off an unknown cache page and take that into the field you won't necessarily be able to find the cache. There are always exceptions and some caches may have been published as the wrong type - this happens - but we try to be as careful as possible when reviewing. We reviewers are after all only super/nearly/barely/actually (cross out those which don't apply) human

 

The bonus cache of a series is an unknown type because if it says 'To find this cache go and find caches 1 to 10 first' and these are not listed on the bonus page then you are stuck. You have to research it first to get the other cache numbers. If you only printed that bonus cache page out as it was and took it out with you then you'd not find the cache. Some people setting bonus caches like this have the details in the description and some don't.

 

If you have a smart phone with an Internet connection in the field (busy field this isn't it?) then that's a bonus for you!

 

Hope this helps

 

Chris

Graculus

Volunteer UK Reviewer for geocaching.com

UK Geocaching Information & Resources website www.follow-the-arrow.co.uk

[+Delta68]

A multi-cache should be 'sovleable' from the information on the cache page. So if you print it out and take it into the field you'll be able to find the cache (hopefully). An unknown cache on the other hand may require you to do some additional work such as Internet research. Basically if you print off an unknown cache page and take that into the field you won't necessarily be able to find the cache. There are always exceptions and some caches may have been published as the wrong type - this happens - but we try to be as careful as possible when reviewing. We reviewers are after all only super/nearly/barely/actually (cross out those which don't apply) human

 

The bonus cache of a series is an unknown type because if it says 'To find this cache go and find caches 1 to 10 first' and these are not listed on the bonus page then you are stuck. You have to research it first to get the other cache numbers. If you only printed that bonus cache page out as it was and took it out with you then you'd not find the cache. Some people setting bonus caches like this have the details in the description and some don't.

 

If you have a smart phone with an Internet connection in the field (busy field this isn't it?) then that's a bonus for you!

 

Hope this helps

 

Chris

Graculus

Volunteer UK Reviewer for geocaching.com

UK Geocaching Information & Resources website www.follow-the-arrow.co.uk

 

Chris

I understood the OP to mean 'Bonus' caches where you have to enter gathered details into a webpage to get a final location (as per the example I gave earlier) these are no longer allowed.

 

This is NOT the same a forgetting to print off bonus cache details before you go and looking it up when out in the field

 

 

Mark

[+Delta68]

 

I understood the OP to mean 'Bonus' caches where you have to enter gathered details into a webpage to get a final location (as per the example I gave earlier) these are no longer allowed.

 

 

Having to gather information and then do further Googling amounts to the same thing as well and therefore shouldn't be aloud

 

Mark

[+abanazar]

Having to gather information and then do further Googling amounts to the same thing as well and therefore shouldn't be aloud

 

Mark

I'd just repeat that I don't see distinction in terms of "allowed/disallowed" between a "?" cache whose page says "Cache is at North <Russian for fifty-one>degrees<Russian for twenty><etc>" (requiring google for most of us) versus one where the preceding caches in a series have drip-fed the same information. It's just that the latter would be harder since it involves finding half a dozen caches to reach the equivalent of the former. I'd be interested to see where this distinction is made in the guidelines -- certainly I don't know how a Reviewer would be able to discern it at the time of publication?

 

However, I do think that the latter's reliance on in-field technology or knowledge of Russian language should be stated or at least alluded to on the Bonus' cache page, in fairness to the cachers attempting it.

[+The Other Stu]

I think that perhaps the answer is.....

 

A new cache type of "Bonus".

 

Because it's a sort-of multi

And a sort-of puzzle

 

"This type of cache is one where you have to collect information from at least one other cache"

 

There go I've just invented a new type.

[+perth pathfinders]

A muzzle?

[+Original A1]

A muzzle?

lol

 

I haven't come across this type of cache yet.

 

My first instinct was "That shouldn't be allowed - it should be a level playing field for all", but then I suppose there's all sorts of caches I'd never be able to do in any case, more in terms of terrain. Examples are ones where diving is required, or the good old Space Station. So the playing field of course develops a ***** terrain rating with good cause.

 

(As a red herring, do you remember the days when a 5* hotel was THE bee's knees? Do you think Groundspeak might forge ahead with 6* or 7*, especially in the Middle Eastern countries?!)

 

[+GAZ]

Hmmmm....I have a series of 26 caches, 25 of them all the same small container, with no swaps, and 15 of them have numbers in which, when re-arranged, heh-heh, will give the location of the 26th (bonus) cache. Now, you could be there all day trying combinations with "geochecker" (on t'interweb), so I have been very generous with hints etc. I know there are cachers from away who won't do the bonus, and ones that want to do it, and I have had emails prior to them coming, and gave my mobile number in case they need "help"!

 

At the end of the day, I want my bonus to be found, so I help as much as possible.

[+purple_pineapple]

In all honesty, even though I own one a decent smartphone, when I'm caching, I don't want to be searching the interweb.

 

When caching, I use my Colorado for caching. I use my phone for calling PAFs.

 

I would like to hope that Bonuses information can be got on the trail rather than online.

 

wot he said!

 

Just like to point out though, this isn't a new phenomenomenom.... Pitch Ampora, a multi down in Surrey, is probably about 6 or 7 years old, easily predates internet savvy smart phones, and I believe requires either encyclopedic knowledge or internet access to complete the multi!

[+Gralorn]

All most interesting and it is not really cricket to point out such a cache, but as an exception and example of what I refer to is perhaps GC2EQH4. Certainly a magic phone required for this one!

[+Happy Humphrey]

As this is merely a discussion point...

 

A "Bonus" cache is really the final stage of a multicache, consisting of several physical containers along the way.

 

It's just that people don't enjoy 25-stage multis so they tend to be designed as separate entities. So you could argue that the Bonus should be subject to the same rules as a multi. Perhaps a Bonus cache should be actually defined as a Multi too, rather than a Mystery - with the stages defined as a normal multi (additional waypoints), each with a link to the corresponding traditional cache.

 

Therefore, if you're only in possession of paper printouts and a GPSr, you should be able to complete the series; including the Bonus.

[+drsolly]

many cachers do not have them

 

But, I'd guess, most cachers have at least *some* sort of mobile phone, and you could use that to call a pal to get the info for you. I know that some people doing the Chiltern Hundred have gotten the info for the bonus that way.

[+maxkim]

As the 'guilty as charged' owner of a series which does have a complex bonus cache (GC1TZWK) We have mad it a puzzle and I believe it is quite clear from the cache page that some work will be required to find it.... some find it on the day, others have returned on a separate occasion. I believe as long as you know upfront you can make plans to solve the final. No major complaints from those doing the series so far.... Max

[+Happy Humphrey]

As the OP said, it's only a discussion point so no-one is pointing fingers or saying that is HAS to be done in a certain way. It's more a debate about whether it's good design that some people are pretty much obliged to leave the bonus for another day.

 

I did enjoy finding drsolly's Chiltern 100 Bonus via a netbook when at the parking area, and have no problem with the design. A very clever idea to allow a few caches in the series (of over 100) to be unfound and still be able to obtain the final coordinates.

 

But I can appreciate that a series might be a little more satisfying if it's set up like a multicache, with the final guaranteed findable using GPS and printouts as long as you've found all or most of the "stages".

[+drsolly]

As the OP said, it's only a discussion point so no-one is pointing fingers or saying that is HAS to be done in a certain way. It's more a debate about whether it's good design that some people are pretty much obliged to leave the bonus for another day.

 

I did enjoy finding drsolly's Chiltern 100 Bonus via a netbook when at the parking area, and have no problem with the design. A very clever idea to allow a few caches in the series (of over 100) to be unfound and still be able to obtain the final coordinates.

 

But I can appreciate that a series might be a little more satisfying if it's set up like a multicache, with the final guaranteed findable using GPS and printouts as long as you've found all or most of the "stages".

 

My original idea was to have a bonus for every ten caches, and in the bonuses, you'd collect a letter that got you to the BONUS bonus. But I quickly realised that this would be appallingly fragile - one missing cache or DNF could make the BONUS bonus unfindable.

 

Thats what led me to the idea of a web page and a cgi that counts the number of correct letters; it means that if you find *any* 100 of the 109, you can still get the bonus. It also meant that when a number of caches were unavailable, or without letters, I could adjust the cgi so that you only needed to reach 90, or 85, or whatever I felt reasonable. I'm pleased with how it's worked out. If anyone wants the source code of the cgi (without the final coords message) they could email me for it, but I can't help you set it up on your own server.

 

If you read the cache page, then you know in advance hat it's going to be like this, there's no sudden surprise. And I know that some people, lacking internet access i the field, have simply phoned a pal who did the necessary typing for them.