Question for the masses about cache tampering?

November 20, 2009

I have a geocache that is rather "well" placed. Its not terribly hard to find and my rating of it is a 2. It cannot be obviously seen but it is all white and about a quart size. The terrain however is rather dangerous, not hard to get to, and requires nothing more than guts, but a wrong move or slip in the last 5 feet could be bad. Therefore I rated it as a 4. Now the question is, is it normal for a cacher to tie a string to it, to make it easier, and safer to get for others? Thus taking a 4 difficulty and making it a 1.5 at best. I was not advised of this change, nor was it logged by whom ever did it. Im not mad about this, but I did put it back, to the way it was intended. I guess I'm just looking for comments on this. . . . .anyone?

November 20, 2009

Normal? No. Does it happen to other caches? Yes. Sometimes unintentionally, when a cacher doesn't put a cache back like they found it, sometimes it happens intentionally. I have heard of hiders that will rehide a cache in a slightly different, more difficult spot if they think the original hide was too easy, regardless of what the cache owner had it rated.

People, don't change the cache owner's intent! It is not your job to "improve" other's caches! If you want them hidden differently then go hide your own!

4.7k · November 20, 2009

back in the early days, there were even instances where finders would mark routes to caches with flagging tape, interpreting their role as guiding other people to caches instead of just finding them.

19k · November 20, 2009

Is it possible that someone tied the string to it in an attempt to keep it from getting accidentally knocked off the ledge (I'm imagining a cache of mine when you describe yours... yours may not be a ledge as I imagine)? [Or, in other words, could the intentions have been positive, even if you percieve it as negative?]

5.7k · November 20, 2009

Putting it back the way it was intended was a really good idea.

9.3k · November 20, 2009

I've never known someone to alter a hide, but I've seen it mentioned in here a few times. Seems like rather odd behavior. One of my now archived hides was an ammo can chained to the top of a palm tree, roughly 30' straight up. I included a 30' piece of rope with carabiners in the cache so whoever made the ascent could lower it to those who didn't.

1.4k · November 20, 2009

It's good you are not mad about it, but it would make me mad. I do not understand those that feel they can change someone Else's cache.

A cache I found a week ago had a log that read "Way too easy. Moved it just a little to make it a bit more chalenging." (his spelling) The cache owner had to go back out and put the cache back the way he had intended it to be.

It is rarely a good idea to try to "improve" someone Else's cache.

4.8k · November 20, 2009

I frequently remind my caching friend that caches should be put back the way they are found. He will often want to "hide it a little better" because he doesn't want it to get muggled.

I always look at the difficulty rating first and then try to replace it in the same spot according to how it was (if it matched the diff rating) or in a way to match the diff rating (if the cache was found in a way that dramatially does not match the diff rating)

Edited to add that I only do this if it appears the cache was not found as it appeared it was meant to be hidden.

Edited November 20, 2009 by bittsen

November 20, 2009

I only have a few caches out, but I have already had one moved on me from my great hiding spot to a more visible spot about 3 feet away. Even though it was roughly in the same area it was now completely visible to the public, if they bent down the right way. My original spot, you could not see. This was only after having the cache out for one day! I was a little miffed because it could have lots of muggles in the summer time. Good thing this time of year there aren't too many people around.

I just don't understand why someone would think that putting the cache in a different spot would be what I WANTED. If I wanted it there, I would have put it there. But I didn't!

I say if you find the cache, the intent should be to put it back as you found it, as the owner intended it to be. If you have a suggestion to change it, send the owner an email and make a SUGGESTION to change it. Maybe the owner didn't think of it. But by all means, PUT IT BACK LIKE YOU FOUND IT!!!

Just my two cents.

November 20, 2009

The only way I change the of a cache is if when I find it it is sitting in the open and all the sticks that I assume were covering it up are laying along side it. Otherwise I try to put it back exactly like I found it. I've found them sitting in the open with no sticks are them and figured that was the way the owner wanted it and left it that way.

November 20, 2009

I say if you find the cache, the intent should be to put it back as you found it, as the owner intended it to be. If you have a suggestion to change it, send the owner an email and make a SUGGESTION to change it. Maybe the owner didn't think of it. But by all means, PUT IT BACK LIKE YOU FOUND IT!!!

I agree completely.

Sometimes I wonder when I find a cache that's obviously misplaced but otherwise intact (not an obvious muggling in other words), whether a prior finder might have just told their kid to "put it back" without supervising, and that was the kid's way of putting it back? With some of the caches I've found, I just can't imagine an adult geocacher having left it that way. Certainly it could be muggles, but if that's the case, then I think it's odd that they haven't taken anything (for instance, the "treasure" out of a pirate cache and/or the "treasure chest" itself).

I imagine the person who tied the string to the OP's cache thought he was doing a favor to those who came after and wasn't trying to "hurt" the hide (even though he was doing just that). This kind of "help" is definitely misplaced.

....Although, now that I think about it, I do remember one cache that, according to its description, was buried behind an impenetrable wall of blackberries and the only way to reach it was via the creek - high terrain rating. When I arrived I found that someone had just weed whacked the blackberries into oblivion, turning it into a 1.5 terrain. That brought a big smile to my face that day! :laughing: I'm also thinking that had I came upon the OP's cache with the string there, I would have smiled at that, too. I guess sometimes I do appreciate "help" even when it's misguided and inappropriate. (But I also would have told the CO that I suspected someone had messed with his hide.)

November 20, 2009

Is it possible that someone tied the string to it in an attempt to keep it from getting accidentally knocked off the ledge (I'm imagining a cache of mine when you describe yours... yours may not be a ledge as I imagine)? [Or, in other words, could the intentions have been positive, even if you percieve it as negative?]

It is on a ledge. One must jump down from a higher level to get to the ledge that the cache is on, and then climb back up. Its about a 4 to 5 ft drop. The difficult part is that the ledge you jump down to, is not very big. The string that someone placed, takes the jump down out, so one could walk over to the edge, very easy, and pull the string and cache up. This cache is not a doable cache for everyone, but in its defense, everytime I check on it, I make the jump with no tie off or safety. Like I said its not hard but it does take guts and sure footing. I will just continue to check on it and keep it true.

Edited November 20, 2009 by copperdoc1

4.8k · November 20, 2009

Is it possible that someone tied the string to it in an attempt to keep it from getting accidentally knocked off the ledge (I'm imagining a cache of mine when you describe yours... yours may not be a ledge as I imagine)? [Or, in other words, could the intentions have been positive, even if you percieve it as negative?]

It is on a ledge. One must jump down from a higher level to get to the ledge that the cache is on, and then climb back up. Its about a 4 to 5 ft drop. The difficult part is that the ledge you jump down to, is not very big. The string that someone placed, takes the jump down out, so one could walk over to the edge, very easy, and pull the string and cache up. This cache is not a doable cache for everyone, but in its defense, everytime I check on it, I make the jump with no tie off or safety. Like I said its not hard but it does take guts and sure footing. I will just continue to check on it and keep it true.

What happens if you miss the ledge or land off balance?

November 20, 2009

From the top to the ledge is about 5 feet down. The ledge itself is approx 4 ft x 4 ft. If you miss the ledge or fall off of it, you would fall approx 20 to 25 ft onto hard packed gravel road.

4.8k · November 20, 2009

From the top to the ledge is about 5 feet down. The ledge itself is approx 4 ft x 4 ft. If you miss the ledge or fall off of it, you would fall approx 20 to 25 ft onto hard packed gravel road.

Sonds like fun until you lose your balance then, right? I think the cacher who was thinking of the safety of others was doing a service.

3.3k · November 20, 2009

From the top to the ledge is about 5 feet down. The ledge itself is approx 4 ft x 4 ft. If you miss the ledge or fall off of it, you would fall approx 20 to 25 ft onto hard packed gravel road.

Sonds like fun until you lose your balance then, right? I think the cacher who was thinking of the safety of others was doing a service.

I think the cacher was changing the nature of the cache without permission from the owner. No service there in my mind.

Sounds like a possibly fun cache to me. I would actually need to visit the site to decide if I was willing to do what was necessary to retrieve the container. I would never tie a rope or string on to help others retrieve the container without getting to the ledge. If I was not willing to do the cache as designed I would log a DNF or a note. Simple. I have done this twice on one cache that requires climbing a 50' ladder up the side of a tree to get to a bison tube. I enjoy the hike to the area but I will not climb the ladder, so I will not sign the log even if someone else climbs the ladder and tosses down the container. For me this is simple. For others...not so simple.

November 20, 2009

Sounds like most of you have people making them harder, I have a married couple here, every, and I mean EVERY time I hide a new cache, like a 3 or higher difficulty, as soon as they log it, I have to go reset it because they will leave them out in the open, they have even put in their logs, "We made it easier for the next cacher, it was too hard to find for us" I have been nice about it, but have reached the point of being ready to turn the tables on them. While I would NEVER mess with another cache, a sock puppet could appear giving hints to all their hides. It is quite annoying.

Edited November 20, 2009 by Bergie Bunch

38.2k · November 20, 2009

I've seen and heard of things like this. I recall one cache that a previous finder placed an arrow made of rocks to point it out. I had one where someone placed reflective flagging tape going to it. I've had cache removed from thier original hiding places so they were easier.

It happens. Doesn't make it right though.

10k · November 20, 2009

I have one that, if you know what you're looking for, is visible from your car. Someone decided to 'hide it better'. After a DNF, I checked on it and could not find it, so I replaced it. Next person, of course, found both.

Changing the CO's intent is not in the spirit of this game.

6.7k · November 20, 2009

Sounds like most of you have people making them harder, I have a married couple here, every, and I mean EVERY time I hide a new cache, like a 3 or higher difficulty, as soon as they log it, I have to go reset it because they will leave them out in the open, they have even put in their logs, "We made it easier for the next cacher, it was too hard to find for us" I have been nice about it, but have reached the point of being ready to turn the tables on them. While I would NEVER mess with another cache, a sock puppet could appear giving hints to all their hides. It is quite annoying.

Have you talked to them? Asked them to refrain from changing your hides?

November 20, 2009

If you look at the cache he does give an inkling that it might be dangerous to retrieve. Also has 'Dangerous Area' and 'Difficult Climbing' attributes on there. Also sounds like (from the cache description) it's hidden so you can spot it before making the jump down, i.e. you don't have to jump or climb around blindly checking a bunch of ledges.

I'm a wimp and most likely would turn around without trying for this one, but it's not like the CO is trying to gotcha somebody by making it look like a P&G until you are on site.

A little more on topic... Since this happened after only a few finds you might consider updating the description with something like "This hide is designed so the finder must make the climb in order to retrieve the cache. Please do not fasten a rope or other retrieval method to the cache to remove this part of the challenge from the hide for later seekers." I'd also note that passing the log up to others in a caching party is of course acceptable.

3.8k · November 20, 2009

While someone tampering with my cache to make it "more challenging" is irritating, it's not as bad as the cacher who's completely lazy and doesn't cover it, or hide it the way they found it. I find there are MORE lazy cachers than there are "let's make it harder" cachers.

6.7k · November 20, 2009

We had this issue on a Huntsville AL cache. There was a street bridge with a pedestrian walkway high over some railroad tracks.

The cache sat on a wide support beam about 12' below the walkway. The cache had a handle on top but the object was that you had to McGyver a rope and hook or some sort of contraption to reach down and hook the cache to raise it.

Folks who thought they were being 'helpful' were always tying a string to the handle so the next cachers could pull it up. Not cool, and the owner finally got frustrated and archived it. :signalviolin:

4.7k · November 20, 2009

i have a cache that people are ALWAYS re-hiding harder than i intended it.

i INTENDED for it to be visible from the road. nearly everybody puts a few rocks in front of and on top of it to make it less obvious.

i rated it ONE, fer pete's sake!

38.2k · November 20, 2009

Sounds like most of you have people making them harder, I have a married couple here, every, and I mean EVERY time I hide a new cache, like a 3 or higher difficulty, as soon as they log it, I have to go reset it because they will leave them out in the open, they have even put in their logs, "We made it easier for the next cacher, it was too hard to find for us" I have been nice about it, but have reached the point of being ready to turn the tables on them. While I would NEVER mess with another cache, a sock puppet could appear giving hints to all their hides. It is quite annoying.

You have to wonder about people like that. They could find it but apparently they think everybody else is too stupid to find it without their help. :signalviolin:

November 20, 2009

If you look at the cache he does give an inkling that it might be dangerous to retrieve. Also has 'Dangerous Area' and 'Difficult Climbing' attributes on there. Also sounds like (from the cache description) it's hidden so you can spot it before making the jump down, i.e. you don't have to jump or climb around blindly checking a bunch of ledges.

I'm a wimp and most likely would turn around without trying for this one, but it's not like the CO is trying to gotcha somebody by making it look like a P&G until you are on site.

A little more on topic... Since this happened after only a few finds you might consider updating the description with something like "This hide is designed so the finder must make the climb in order to retrieve the cache. Please do not fasten a rope or other retrieval method to the cache to remove this part of the challenge from the hide for later seekers." I'd also note that passing the log up to others in a caching party is of course acceptable.

Thats exactly it and I did edit the description. Thanks for the comments everyone! Maybe I'll go set some harder ones. hee hee hee CD

6.1k · November 21, 2009

From the top to the ledge is about 5 feet down. The ledge itself is approx 4 ft x 4 ft. If you miss the ledge or fall off of it, you would fall approx 20 to 25 ft onto hard packed gravel road.

Most likely someone dropped it the 25 feet and after retrieving it, they probably got some rope out of their truck to prevent other people from doing the same. I wouldn't be concerned about it happening again.

November 21, 2009

Sounds like most of you have people making them harder, I have a married couple here, every, and I mean EVERY time I hide a new cache, like a 3 or higher difficulty, as soon as they log it, I have to go reset it because they will leave them out in the open, they have even put in their logs, "We made it easier for the next cacher, it was too hard to find for us" I have been nice about it, but have reached the point of being ready to turn the tables on them. While I would NEVER mess with another cache, a sock puppet could appear giving hints to all their hides. It is quite annoying.

Have you talked to them? Asked them to refrain from changing your hides?

On SEVERAL occasions, they just smile and walk away.

6.7k · November 21, 2009

On SEVERAL occasions, they just smile and walk away.

Superglue. Yep, a big gob in your palm. Walk up, shake hands, he'll be there as long as you want to counsel him on the error of his ways.

Edited November 21, 2009 by TheAlabamaRambler

Question for the masses about cache tampering?

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