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2oldfarts (the rockhounders)

Help! I'm getting too old to follow directions!

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Went looking for a benchmark today with no luck. We have no clue where to even begin looking for this one after being on site. We think 2 datasheets may have been combined and so the directions don't fit with what is on site.

 

Here is a link to J 52 & to the GC page which reads the same as the NGS datasheet.

 

"1/1/1934 by CGS (MONUMENTED)

DESCRIBED BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1934 0.3 MI E FROM FREDONIA. 0.2 OF A MILE EAST OF INTERSECTION OF U.S. HIGHWAY NO. 89, AND ROAD TO PIPE SPRINGS. 53 FT. NORTH WEST OF ARIZONA HIGHWAY BENCH MARK WITH STATION NO. 0 PLUS 00. 12 FT. SOUTH OF CENTER LINE OF U. S. HIGHWAY NO. 89. 19 FT. NORTH OF TELEPHONE POLE LINE. SET IN CENTER OF SOUTH HEADWALL OF DOUBLE 3 FOOT PIPE CULVERT."

 

The first thing that becomes apparent is "12 feet south of highway 89". The mark is 2/10 of a mile east of 89 and the junction of 389. Highway 89 runs north & south at the described location. 2/10 mile east of the highway AND 12 feet south of the highway cannot be possible. The other problem is the setting. According to the datasheet "SETTING: 7 = SET IN TOP OF CONCRETE MONUMENT", but the description says "SET IN CENTER OF SOUTH HEADWALL OF DOUBLE 3 FOOT PIPE CULVERT." definitely not a concrete monument.

 

Here is a picture showing the general area in the description.

 

fcffc9cc-14ae-41f4-8c37-2a0cf3430d16.jpg

 

Any help would be appreciated.

 

 

Along these same lines there are 2 other benchmarks that we have looked for on several occasions and have not been able to find. The areas where the benchmarks are supposed to be do not appear to have been disturbed by heavy equipment or road work.

 

Anyone who will be in the area (between Lee's Ferry and the North Rim of the Grand Canyon Highway 89A) and would like to help an old fart out, please let me know so I can get time off work and enjoy your help.

 

John

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Hi, John--

 

Can't help with the setting puzzle, but maybe the east-west road is 389, for which 89 is a typo. Some maps give Pratt Street that three-digit number.

 

Good luck! It'll be a while yet before we're back in Arizona.

 

Cheers,

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Where was 89 in 1934? Old road numbers routinely get moved to newly built roadways.

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Where was 89 in 1934? Old road numbers routinely get moved to newly built roadways.

 

Bill, we have recovered K 52 Just south of the intersection of Hwy 89 & Hwy 389 and L 52. One is north of the location(?) of J 52 and the other is south of J 52. Hwy 89 goes south to the North Rim of the Grand Canyon and has several other benchmarks from the "52" line that we have recovered.

 

I feel confident that Hwy 89 does not jog over to the described position 2/10 miles to the east.

 

John

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Is it possible that back in the 30s, Hwy 89 was along Juniper or Maurice up to Pratt, then a right turn on Main ? I think a lot of highways just took over older existing roads, then as time passed they were rebuilt to improve the flow of traffic. Looking at a topo map of the area, it does show two ditches, one on each side of Maurice Ave, and that would make sense for a culvert.

 

It would be interesting to see a 1930s map of the area, showing where the old highway was. I see it mentioned in the 1954 reports of some of the nearby benchmarks.

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Is it possible that back in the 30s, Hwy 89 was along Juniper or Maurice up to Pratt, then a right turn on Main ? I think a lot of highways just took over older existing roads, then as time passed they were rebuilt to improve the flow of traffic. Looking at a topo map of the area, it does show two ditches, one on each side of Maurice Ave, and that would make sense for a culvert.

 

It would be interesting to see a 1930s map of the area, showing where the old highway was. I see it mentioned in the 1954 reports of some of the nearby benchmarks.

 

K 52 is south of the intersection and L 53 is north of the intersection and J 52 is described as east of the intersection. So it appears as though the highway ran in the same place in 1934 as it does now. J 52 is described as set in the top of the headwall as well as setting #7 in a concrete monument.

 

We haven't seen J 52 mentioned in any other reports.

 

There is a culvert 2/10 east of the intersection, but it doesn't have a headwall as such, just some sandstone pieces stacked over the culvert. Nothing stable enough to hold a benchmark.

 

John

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oops. not to confuse things, I meant I saw the old highway mentioned in other recovery reports from 54. So, parts of it have been re-routed anyway.

 

I wonder why they had F, G, H, J, K, L, and M but no I ? I did a radial search, even for destroyed marks, but nothing comes up.

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I wonder why they had F, G, H, J, K, L, and M but no I ? I did a radial search, even for destroyed marks, but nothing comes up.

Around here we have seen them skip I and O because they are too easily confused with one and zero.

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How about if you make two assumptions:

 

1) Use m&h’s assumption that the description should read

“12 FT. SOUTH OF CENTER LINE OF U. S. HIGHWAY NO. 389”

(where 389 had a spur east of the 389 and 89 intersection).

 

2) Assume that the culvert you investigated WAS where the mark was monumented but over the years the culvert was rebuilt. That is where the mark was, but now it is destroyed.

 

That culvert that is 1300 feet east of highway 89 on Pratt road sure lines up nicely with the description and is close to the scaled coordinates.

 

Did you attempt to look for “Arizona Highway Bench Mark with station no. 0 plus 00” at 53 feet southeast of that culvert? Is there a resource to look up Arizona Highway benchmarks?

 

Good luck.

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Maybe I’m just wasting bandwidth here but here is my take. As you know J 52 is part of a line. So I plotted G 52; H 52; J 52; K 52; L 52; and M 52 on Google Earth using the Coordinates in Geocaching. J 52 is conspicuously out of place.

 

If it was me I would be looking along US 89 between H 52 and K 52. The other marks are from 1.5 to 3 miles apart. But H 52 and K 52 are 6 miles apart. Is it possible there was an I 52? I did not think they used “I” as it was too easy to confuse with “1”. However there is enough room for two more marks there.

 

In this area US 89 goes northwest southeast.

 

HTH

 

K52.JPG

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There are a couple of other 1934 marks between there, H11 and H12, at 1.9 miles and 3.7 miles from J52. Maybe they just used those to fill in the gap, since they were there ?

 

J52 does seem out of place when you look at all of them plotted like that.

 

I was searching around a little for any historic maps online. I came across a Fredonia township plat map from 1939 - but it times out before it ever connects. It was cool looking at a 1927 Rand McNally road atlas for AZ and comparing it to the current highways and towns :)

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I was looking at the topos for this area and found that the large-scale series from 1970 showed something a little different for Fredonia:

82450071-4f91-40dc-ac4e-8649774e2126.jpg

I think there's a chance dixiedawn was on the right track. It could have been that Rte 89 went east on Pratt, on an alignment that is pretty much gone now (although the former part of it may have been on the landfill road. You can see what might be the remains of the alignment on the aerial imagery.

 

This doesn't contradict the K 52 log in my mind, either. The intersection of Rte 89 and the road to Pipe Spring is in the same location that it is today in this theory. It's just that Rte 89 went east from it, not south - and the description for K 52 doesn't indicate that Rte 89 went south from the intersection.

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I was looking at the topos for this area and found that the large-scale series from 1970 showed something a little different for Fredonia:

82450071-4f91-40dc-ac4e-8649774e2126.jpg

I think there's a chance dixiedawn was on the right track. It could have been that Rte 89 went east on Pratt, on an alignment that is pretty much gone now (although the former part of it may have been on the landfill road. You can see what might be the remains of the alignment on the aerial imagery.

 

This doesn't contradict the K 52 log in my mind, either. The intersection of Rte 89 and the road to Pipe Spring is in the same location that it is today in this theory. It's just that Rte 89 went east from it, not south - and the description for K 52 doesn't indicate that Rte 89 went south from the intersection.

 

Your map shows Hwy 389 (road to Pipe Springs) going across Hwy 89, past the given position of J 52 and then turning southeast and rejoining Hwy 89. Where it rejoins hwy 89 would fit the description for being 2/10 mile east of that junction and being South of Hwy 89. It would also fit the placement pattern of the others of that line number. We will try to get over there next weekend and see what remains of old Hwy 389.

 

Thanks for fresh look at things and the new options.

 

John

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So John, are you going to try Pratt Street east of Main Street, and if that doesn't work, go southeast of town past Ryan Rd. and GQ0064 and see if it's somewhere in that area? It sure is confusing that the coordinates put it in town, even though that would make it out of line with the others in its "family." (I do see a ditch on the topo map in the specified location, so there gotta be a culvert. Of course, there are places were waterways cross 89 south of town, too...) Please keep us posted on what happens!

 

BTW, if you like animals and have never been to Best Friends Animal Sanctuary, be sure to stop by there for a tour sometime. It's an amazing place. Some friends and I spent a week there several years ago, helping care for the cats, dogs, bunnies, horses, etc. in between taking trips to the North Rim, Zion, etc.

 

Patty

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John

 

I'd be inclined to look where that same ditch, .2 mi east of the intersection, crosses U.S. 89 further south, since at this point U.S. 89 is running more E-W. Good luck!

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Being a roadgeek, and having traveled many old US highways, my completely unbackable opinion is that DixieDawn is correct - US89 turned right (where Pratt St is now) and then headed SE after leaving town.

 

In fact, to back that up, if you read the current datasheet for H11, and sort out the out-of-order dates (it was monumented in 1953, but recovered in 1934?) - Obviously it was set in 1934, and that description lists is as *SOUTH* of US89. However, the 1953 recovery (monumentation?) lists is as being on the *NORTH* side of US89. Comparing the aerial views to the location of the station, you can see the location straddled by the old roadbed and the new, current road.

 

It's things like this that make me love benchmarking. :P

 

And, if you can do an old roadgeek a favor and get a picture of the H11 and the old roadbed, that'd be great. :ph34r:

 

[Followup:]

It appears, now, that sometime between 1954 and 1962 - probably in 1962 - US89 was re-routed to the north, in Utah. The US89 through Fredonia is now *Alternate* US89. If you look at USGS Topo or Aerial views of HO0076, you'll see it's listed as being monumented in 1962, on US89. And if you look at an aerial view, it's not even US89 anymore, as the road has been straightened and re-routed north of the mark. This means, that the mark 2OF is looking for is on "Old Old Old US89".

 

As even more of an aside, if you gander at GQ0040, you'll see that in the only entry, 1954, it refers to the "Old Highway" - and looking at aerial view, you can see it twist in the terrain. You can see a roadbed, probably made over 75 years ago. Following it to the SE, you can see it diverge to the north of present-day Alt US89. Talk about a while ride back then!

 

Okay. Sorry. I'll be quiet now.

Edited by foxtrot_xray

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Wintertime, we have been along Pratt east of the junction several times now and there are no visible culvert headwalls. We also looked for AZ right of way markers and saw none although there some along Main St (Hwy 89). It appears as though the Pipe Springs road may have continued across Hwy 89 and followed Pratt on around and to the south and re connected to Hwy 89 south and east of town.

 

Foxtrot, Hwy 89 was rename to Hwy 89A when the Glen Canyon Dam was built in the 1950s. The section of Hwy 89A from Fredonia to Bitter Spring is from the early 1920s and we have recovered the majority those that still exist though some still elude us as with J 52.

 

In the picture that Shorelander posted you see Hwy 89 (solid red) running north/south then making a hard curve to the east. You also see the Pipe Springs road (red and white) as part of Pratt and it ties into Hwy 89 southeast of town. Note also that the Pipe Springs road is also part of "The Honeymoon Trail" which was a major route to St George, Utah prior to the existence of Hwy 89. It followed Hwy 89 southeast to the Winter Road which is about 1 1/2 miles west of G 52.

 

It appears that we need to check right-of-way markers along Hwy 89 A to see if we can locate 'station no 0 plus 00' and look for both a concrete monument or headwall nearby.

 

John

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In the picture that Shorelander posted you see Hwy 89 (solid red) running north/south then making a hard curve to the east. You also see the Pipe Springs road (red and white) as part of Pratt and it ties into Hwy 89 southeast of town. Note also that the Pipe Springs road is also part of "The Honeymoon Trail" which was a major route to St George, Utah prior to the existence of Hwy 89. It followed Hwy 89 southeast to the Winter Road which is about 1 1/2 miles west of G 52.

Now, just curious, do you have anything that gave you the impression of the bold statement? Looking at Google Earth, I see no roadbed that 'follows' Hwy 89 way down there. The only thing I see if an OLD alignment of Hwy 89 that curved to the south for an easier crossing over arroyo. See my screenshot from GE here of Winter Rd area. (Winter Rd is stand-out dusty road just SE of GQ0041, according to my maps?) The old Hwy89 alignment is poorly dotted in green; it goes to the south, avoiding the cutting and fill that the current bed uses, and crosses the creek to the south, then bends back up and re-joins present-day Alt US89 just before Winter Rd. (And, overall note - I found documents online that state that through most of AZ the 'old' Alt US89 follows the current Alt US89, so when I say 'join', I mean it follows/parallels, etc.)

 

I still maintain that US89 didn't go south out of Fredonia, and instead made a sharp right-turn on Pratt St. and then curves SE. That jives with how it is "0.2 OF A MILE EAST OF INTERSECTION OF U.S. HIGHWAY NO. 89, AND ROAD TO PIPE SPRINGS" *and* "12 FT. SOUTH OF CENTER LINE OF U. S. HIGHWAY NO. 89". It would then also explain how station GQ0064 was "62 FT. SOUTH OF CENTER LINE OF HIGHWAY" and then years later was "TOP OF A RISE ON THE NORTH RIGHT-OF-WAY OF U.S. HIGHWAY 89". :mad:

 

As far as Shorelander, that was a 1:100k USGS map, and shows that the current Alt US89 alignment was made before then (as it's on the map), but they haven't closed the original alignment, the red-dashed road (Pratt Rd).

 

I'm actually tempted to call up Fredonia's Library and see if anyone there knows for sure. I already marked Alt US89 for a road trip, now. :mad:

Edited by foxtrot_xray

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In the picture that Shorelander posted you see Hwy 89 (solid red) running north/south then making a hard curve to the east. You also see the Pipe Springs road (red and white) as part of Pratt and it ties into Hwy 89 southeast of town. Note also that the Pipe Springs road is also part of "The Honeymoon Trail" which was a major route to St George, Utah prior to the existence of Hwy 89. It followed Hwy 89 southeast to the Winter Road which is about 1 1/2 miles west of G 52.

Now, just curious, do you have anything that gave you the impression of the bold statement? Looking at Google Earth, I see no roadbed that 'follows' Hwy 89 way down there. The only thing I see if an OLD alignment of Hwy 89 that curved to the south for an easier crossing over arroyo. See my screenshot from GE here of Winter Rd area. (Winter Rd is stand-out dusty road just SE of GQ0041, according to my maps?) The old Hwy89 alignment is poorly dotted in green; it goes to the south, avoiding the cutting and fill that the current bed uses, and crosses the creek to the south, then bends back up and re-joins present-day Alt US89 just before Winter Rd. (And, overall note - I found documents online that state that through most of AZ the 'old' Alt US89 follows the current Alt US89, so when I say 'join', I mean it follows/parallels, etc.)

 

I still maintain that US89 didn't go south out of Fredonia, and instead made a sharp right-turn on Pratt St. and then curves SE. That jives with how it is "0.2 OF A MILE EAST OF INTERSECTION OF U.S. HIGHWAY NO. 89, AND ROAD TO PIPE SPRINGS" *and* "12 FT. SOUTH OF CENTER LINE OF U. S. HIGHWAY NO. 89". It would then also explain how station GQ0064 was "62 FT. SOUTH OF CENTER LINE OF HIGHWAY" and then years later was "TOP OF A RISE ON THE NORTH RIGHT-OF-WAY OF U.S. HIGHWAY 89". :mad:

 

As far as Shorelander, that was a 1:100k USGS map, and shows that the current Alt US89 alignment was made before then (as it's on the map), but they haven't closed the original alignment, the red-dashed road (Pratt Rd).

 

I'm actually tempted to call up Fredonia's Library and see if anyone there knows for sure. I already marked Alt US89 for a road trip, now. :mad:

 

The Winter Road is about 1 1/2 miles west / northwest of G 52. The Winter Road IS the Honeymoon Trail. The Honeymoon Trail went from Fredonia south along what is now old Hwy 89 to the Winter Road where it turned east and follow it to Houserock Valley where it continued south to Hwy 89 A and then went east towards Lee's Ferry.

 

K 52 is far enough south of the intersection to indicate that Hwy 89 A did not make a hard turn to the east onto Pratt. Another possibility is the Pipe Springs road changed / was rerouted further to the north.

 

John

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The Winter Road is about 1 1/2 miles west / northwest of G 52. The Winter Road IS the Honeymoon Trail. The Honeymoon Trail went from Fredonia south along what is now old Hwy 89 to the Winter Road where it turned east and follow it to Houserock Valley where it continued south to Hwy 89 A and then went east towards Lee's Ferry.

 

K 52 is far enough south of the intersection to indicate that Hwy 89 A did not make a hard turn to the east onto Pratt. Another possibility is the Pipe Springs road changed / was rerouted further to the north.

 

John

 

Hmm.. but K 52 doesn't say it's ON Hwy 89, does it?

 

My gosh, I'm planning a road trip out there. :ph34r:

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Note - and I apologize. I don't mean to drag this on forever. It's just something I'm really interested in. (I would dare say that most of the reason I'm into benchmark hunting is because it gets me on the road..) :unsure:

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Yeah, I’m kind of fascinated by this one too. I think this will require investigation by DaveD.

 

The latitude on J 52 (N 36° 56.683) is the same as the latitude for K 52 and the description seems to put it way out of line with the other marks in the same run. So it looks like the description has been mixed up with another mark.

 

I think the way to find this one is to have a look at the original notes. Or else find a topo map that shows it.

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Yeah, I’m kind of fascinated by this one

I am too.

 

This is turning into quite a group project.

 

I vote that whoever gets there first, foxtrot_xray or 2oldfarts, has to wear a wireless helmet webcam and broadcast live streaming video so the rest of us can vicariously follow along while the search is in progress.

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This is turning into quite a group project.

 

I vote that whoever gets there first, foxtrot_xray or 2oldfarts, has to wear a wireless helmet webcam and broadcast live streaming video so the rest of us can vicariously follow along while the search is in progress.

 

Hah! Don't tempt me. But, I will admit - my video would also include a walk along the old roadbeds, and looking at old overpasses and such. :blink:

 

But, re-looking at J 52.. say it was in a headwall, and it was only 12ft from the centerline. I can tell you now that if that's the case, you won't find that culvert headwall. I'm POSITIVE that after years, the road was widened to 12 feet lanes, which means the shoulder and new pad would have destroyed the culvert. Among some US highways, when they were first paved, they only have ONE part pavement of about 12 feet wide, the rest was gravel. (See picture here of US66 as an example.) It's possible that way back then, IF this WAS part of US89, it's pavement was similar to that, and these culverts were in somewhat of where the fill road sits now.

 

I'm sure that 2OF will get there before I, since I'm stuck out east until next summer. :unsure:

Edited by foxtrot_xray

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I went to Fredonia today to see what I could determine for J 52. I started off by measuring 2/10 of a mile east from the center of the intersection of Hwy 89A & the road to Pipe Springs. There are no culverts at that location. From there I went to K 52 and then on to H 11. There is no distinct old road showing at that point (H11). I did locate 1 old telephone (or is it telegraph) pole. I could not determine where the old road would have run based on H 11s description. H 11 is approximately 39 feet (paced) south of the fence and the existing pole is approximately 9 feet north of the fence.

 

09ef7176-4a32-498b-9849-b418ade0054e.jpg

Arrow points to current Hwy 89. The post in the foreground is the telephone pole.

 

c0a3048c-dc14-4c16-a53d-60b3e27d4173.jpg

Arrow points to witness post for H11.

 

849c67f3-2f0d-4817-9dc6-8de45b490dc2.jpg

 

I back-tracked to K 52 and cleared the trip odometer and headed back towards H 11. When I got close to the mile mark I started looking for culverts and AZ highway benchmark sta 0 + 00. Just past the intersection of Hwy 89A and Ryan Road I saw some culverts. I stopped and cleaned off a couple of the benchmarks that were in the north headwalls. none had the correct markings on them.

 

I started back towards town watching for other culverts when I noticed an old little used paved road. The road was running N/S so I measured 2/10 of a mile to the east and found 2 three foot culverts, but there were no headwalls there. The culverts are right at 1 mile from K 52. That is in the ballpark for typical spacing of benchmarks in a series.

 

349b6517-3f93-4b5c-bf44-0443ad24f0c6.jpg

Looking south.

 

53436aba-6f64-4052-97df-e52cac79fd69.jpg

Looking north.

 

c9808bd8-38db-4c6f-a400-ada0bd7d1a4a.jpg

 

a16348a8-22ac-45cb-bd22-3b91c76d1eb5.jpg

 

61e92f25-2597-4751-aec7-eb6ba3ce5db9.jpg

 

My conclusions are that there is no way to determine where J 52 was set using the information on the datasheet. I do not believe that is was set in a headwall. All the other benchmarks from this series have either been set in concrete monuments or in rock outcrops. None were set in headwalls. Also there is the problem with using an AZ highway benchmark as a reference point in the description ("53 feet north west of AZ highway benchmark with station no 0 plus 00). All the AZ highway benchmarks that I found were in the north headwall so that puts J 52 53 feet northwest of the north headwall not south of the highway. Now take a close look at the benchmarks in the pictures and notice the dates stamped on them. J 52 was monumented in 1934 not 1939.

 

b4cb99bb-9f4c-4c82-9c92-499a2ee8ee4a.jpg

 

7571ab57-a7da-4266-b5a5-f4e16678fb7a.jpg

Edited by 2oldfarts (the rockhounders)

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I love this thread. I was hoping someone could get out there, and now it's even more interesting than before....

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2OF - Good writeup!

 

That old unused paved road makes my hear ache. (Don't ask... I'm odd. :() Do have a question - along Alt US89, about .5 mile along the road from the intersection of Pratt Rd, the Topo maps of the area show that there's a "Ditch". What kind of structure was there? Just culverts?

 

Me

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2OF - Good writeup!

 

That old unused paved road makes my hear ache. (Don't ask... I'm odd. :P) Do have a question - along Alt US89, about .5 mile along the road from the intersection of Pratt Rd, the Topo maps of the area show that there's a "Ditch". What kind of structure was there? Just culverts?

 

Me

 

What is on the map is irrigation ditches, no culverts but they are made of concrete. The unused paved road goes back to an area that is closed to the public (there was a large pile of gravel where it was posted.) so we don't know for sure where it goes.

 

Now for your heartache, here are a few pictures of a bridge in the old road, about 3 1/2 south of Fredonia near where H 13 is supposed to be located.

 

Looking WSW zoomed in.

5ebc7293-9b8b-4f5b-96c2-8d9d913dd96d.jpg

 

Looking WSW normal view. The bridge is in the white box. Looking straight along the old road.

d9f685d5-5cbe-4d3a-8db6-3ff0e3590737.jpg

 

Looking NW

ab6f8e22-dce0-4c16-b751-3a7b3e7060a0.jpg

 

Zoomed in looking south.

04188531-1df5-4734-b2e7-af5b14e5b58d.jpg

 

Normal view from Hwy 89A looking south.

9071b519-9829-4c56-a3b5-f1933e802f64.jpg

 

This shows the difficulty of trying to follow the old road now and then.

 

John

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Okay. I'm confused. You located K 52 slightly south of the intersection of 89 and Lukus Lane? (That is a hideous monument! :blink: ) Or is it at the intersection of Pratt and 89? Topo map has an X there with an elevation of 4670. Going out on a limb (since I'm not doing the driving and wasting my time...) I'll suggest that 89 used to head east on Pratt, then head southeast. Topo map shows an X with an elevation of 4678 just east of the intersection with Juniper Street. Coords of N 36 56.736' W 112 31.049'. Though that would not click with being .2 mile east...

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Okay. I'm confused. You located K 52 slightly south of the intersection of 89 and Lukus Lane? (That is a hideous monument! :blink: ) Or is it at the intersection of Pratt and 89? Topo map has an X there with an elevation of 4670. Going out on a limb (since I'm not doing the driving and wasting my time...) I'll suggest that 89 used to head east on Pratt, then head southeast. Topo map shows an X with an elevation of 4678 just east of the intersection with Juniper Street. Coords of N 36 56.736' W 112 31.049'. Though that would not click with being .2 mile east...

 

K 52 is located just north of the Kaibab Ranger Station at coordinates N 36° 56.541 W 112° 31.554. These coordinates put the monument in a little pull off at the corner of Lukus Lane and Hwy 89A. It is approximately 1/4 mile south of the intersection of Hwy 89A and Pratt.

 

We drove across Pratt yesterday and at 2/10 mile from the center of Hwy 89A and the current road to Pipe Springs, there is no sign of a culvert, double culvert, drainage, or headwalls.

 

From the description - quote "DESCRIBED BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1934 0.3 MI E FROM FREDONIA. 0.2 OF A MILE EAST OF INTERSECTION OF U.S. HIGHWAY NO. 89, AND ROAD TO PIPE SPRINGS." - unquote - we have a conflict of directions. How can the mark be "3/10 from Fredonia and only be 2/10 from the intersection INSIDE Fredonia? We did drive along Pratt to the junction of Pratt and Juniper and did not see anything. We even tried going to the coordinates listed for J 52 just in case they were correct.

 

We don't have a clue as to what to try next.

 

John

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Quite the interesting mystery!

 

Not being there on the ground makes it difficult to draw concrete (pun intended) conclusions, but...

 

Using Google Earth (with the enhancement of some Benchmark Hunter Tools I got from somewhere :blink: ), I see a definite road going southeast from Pratt St. and Juniper St. that connects in with the current highway alignment near H 11. It is difficult to tell, but this COULD have been the alignment in 1934. Obviously they WERE plotting the current alignment in 1939...

 

Looking at the topo overlay, I see three N/S ditches at approximately .1 mile intervals along Pratt St to the east of Main St (highway 89)...one ditch is very close to the given scaled co-ordinates for J 52. Two-tenths north along that same ditch I see a USGS measured elevation where the ditch crosses Brown St. I would think there must have been some substantial something there for them to measure on...a culvert headwall perhaps? Wouldn't there have been an equally substantial something at the Pratt St. crossing?

 

Apparently the center point of Fredonia was considered to be the intersection of Main and Jensen (near the school and church, a reasonable place to consider the center of town if there is no courthouse). J 52 would be .3 highway miles from there, yet .2 miles from the Pipe Springs road intersection.

 

If the NGS used the Pipe Springs monument to mount K 52, they certainly might have used a culvert headwall if it served their purpose.

 

My conclusion is that there USED to be a substantial culvert headwall at the Saga Rd. alignment intersection of Pratt St. Obviously that location has been inspected, and no such headwall now exists.

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OK, here's some more fuel for the fire. These 1939 Right-of-Way plans for U.S. 89 show the location of the old road just as Shorelander's topo does, and as foxtrot_xray (road geek) hypothesized.

 

Holtie,

 

Looking at the Right-of-Way plan shows a 0 + 00 with an arrow pointing to the intersection of 89A and the 'Old Road'. Is that the same "53 FT. NORTH WEST OF ARIZONA HIGHWAY BENCH MARK WITH STATION NO. 0 PLUS 00" as mentioned on the benchmark page? If that is the Station No. 0 Plus 00 mentioned then that would put J 52 North West by 53 ft. and not East? :blink:

 

Thank you for the link, it is very informative and shows where the old road went winding back and forth across the now currant highway.

 

Shirley~

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I think that particular 0+00 is approximately the center of the intersection of Pratt Rd / Pipe Springs Rd, and Main St / Highway 89. Too close to K 52 to be the one for J 52.

 

When I first viewed that drawing, it took me a few moments to notice that north is to the lower-right.

 

I'm not a Civil Engineer, but I'm guessing any / every project like this would have a starting point labeled 0+00.

I would imagine that the Engineers don't care so much about the actual (ASL) elevation of the road and associated structures as they do about their relative elevations.

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OK, here's some more fuel for the fire. These 1939 Right-of-Way plans for U.S. 89 show the location of the old road just as Shorelander's topo does, and as foxtrot_xray (road geek) hypothesized.

 

Holtie,

 

Looking at the Right-of-Way plan shows a 0 + 00 with an arrow pointing to the intersection of 89A and the 'Old Road'. Is that the same "53 FT. NORTH WEST OF ARIZONA HIGHWAY BENCH MARK WITH STATION NO. 0 PLUS 00" as mentioned on the benchmark page? If that is the Station No. 0 Plus 00 mentioned then that would put J 52 North West by 53 ft. and not East? :blink:

 

Thank you for the link, it is very informative and shows where the old road went winding back and forth across the now currant highway.

 

Shirley~

AZcachemeister is correct that nearly every highway project has a starting point with station 0+00. The one indicated on this plan is for a 1937 project, so it still came after the benchmark, although there is a note on this 1938 plan to indicate that the surveying was done in 1933. What we need are the highway plans, if any, that existed at that time. I couldn't find any on the AZDOT website.

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Excuse me, but am I the only one who can't stop thinking of the Marx Brothers' Duck Soup, when I hear of Fredonia? :) One of the best of their corpus.

 

And guess when that film was made? 1933. You 2oldfarts may be too old to follow directions, but you're just right to remember the Marx Brothers.

 

I think they picked that town on purpose to confuse you serious searchers.

 

:blink::)

Edited by Papa-Bear-NYC

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Excuse me, but am I the only one who can't stop thinking of the Marx Brothers' Duck Soup, when I hear of Fredonia? ;) One of the best of their corpus.

 

And guess when that film was made? 1933. You 2oldfarts may be too old to follow directions, but you're just right to remember the Marx Brothers.

 

I think they picked that town on purpose to confuse you serious searchers.

 

:):mad:

 

While looking for potential sources of old photos of the area, I found this:

 

...settled in 1885 by Mormon pioneers from Kanab, Utah. The word "Fredonia" was coined by Samuel Latham Mitchill, combining "freedom" with a Latin ending. Mitchill proposed the name as a replacement for the United States. It failed in that regard but was adopted as the name of many towns and cities. According to George R. Stewart, the meaning of the Arizona town of Fredonia is sometimes said, falsely, to be the joining of English "free" and Spanish "doña", thus meaning "free woman", supposedly referring to polygamous Mormons...

 

There is a Fredonia a little closer to you Papa-Bear. :)

 

However, if TOF will excuse me, this routine seems more like a car-chase from the Keystone Cops! :blink:

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OK, here's some more fuel for the fire. These 1939 Right-of-Way plans for U.S. 89 show the location of the old road just as Shorelander's topo does, and as foxtrot_xray (road geek) hypothesized.

 

Holtie, since your right-of-way plans indicate that Hwy 89 makes a hard turn and follows Pratt to the east, it raises questions about K 52. Has the monument with the benchmark been moved south about 1/4 mile? Would this mean it is now destroyed? The description says it should have been right on the SW corner of the intersection. If so, then the average distance between the benchmarks for that line would put J 52 somewhere between 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 miles to the east - southeast. Hopefully the old road will be visible enough to recognize when on site.

 

Knowing what the original descriptions for these 2 benchmarks (K 52 & J52) actually said would definitely help locate J 52 and determine if K 52 had been moved.

 

John

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Holtie - Thanks for those maps! As a road geek, I love you. B) Those are priceless to me.(*) And 2OF, that bridge is dadgum nice. Yes, seeing it makes me ache to go out there and photograph it and explore it. Can anyone imagine having to drive cross-country, on a mostly-dirt road, crossing over things like that? (And, taking it a step further, it makes you appreciate the early frontiers..)

 

But I digress.

 

(*) - Shows you where I put my values, eh? :D

Edited by foxtrot_xray

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As it happens, my travels last week took me to Freedonia, and while I don't have much positive to add, here's what I found.

 

First stop was K 52, which I found quickly given the prior logs. I believe the monument, foundation and all, was at some point picked up and moved from its described location to its current one to get it out of harm's way when 89A was widened. At the intersection of 89A and 389, 89A is now 4 lanes wide plus a left turn lane plus a paved shoulder (I think) plus a sidewalk, so the monument at 60 feet southwest of the center of the intersection would almost certainly have been in the way of construction.

 

Since John hadn't seen a ditch crossing at the point where the ditch indicated on the topo map at .2 miles east of the intersection, I next went to the intersection of Brown St. and 2nd East to investigate the X 4678T shown on the topo map, as pointed out by AZcachemeister. There I found a concrete lined irrigation ditch which comes up from the south and makes a 90° turn to the west at the point of the X. My guess is the USGS leveled to a mark on the ditch lining at the corner, but the ditch is in ill repair and the corner is overgrown with large clumps of grass and I couldn't see a chiseled mark (view looking ESE):

 

54a01cb0-6c64-42f7-90a9-605e7f2f8b36.jpg

 

Having confirmed the existence of the ditch at that point, I circled back around and drove east along Pratt St. but didn't see anything at first glance where the west ditch should have crossed, and I continued on to the ditch indicated at approximately .3 miles, where there is a large culvert, but as John observed, the headwall is sandstone and not really stable enough for a mark. The current culvert is very large, and could have at some point replaced the described two 3 foot culverts (view looking SE):

 

0dabe0c8-75f6-4767-801f-7efd181619cf.jpg

 

I turned around and drove back east along Pratt St., and from this direction I saw part of a valve sticking up, so I got out and sure enough the ditch at .2 miles is there, but overgrown with clumps of grass. Here's the north end (view looking north):

 

a98db7fe-ba0b-4700-a97e-2c7187979893.jpg

 

Not really much of a headwall, and not wide enough to need two 3 foot culverts. I got out to investigate further and found that at this point where the ditch crosses Pratt St. I paced off the road width at 24 feet, there is a 30 foot right of way on the south side of the street and a slightly narrower right of way on the north side of the street. When I checked the south edge of the right of way, I found a more well defined concrete headwall (!) but no mark:

 

a692189d-a3f8-4d25-ad27-4e2333be13e0.jpg

 

My sense is that despite the unusual spacing, J 52 was at one of these two ditch crossings but has been lost with road widening and changes to the irrigation/culvert infrastructure. Earlier in the day, I had noted that at the next "major" intersection to the east along this level line in Jacob Lake, U 51 and T 51 were apparently set at a similarly close distance apart of .1 miles according to their descriptions.

 

Sorry I didn't get more and better pictures, but it was raining while I was there and, not being used to such, I didn't spend as much time looking around further as I could have.

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