DeLorme PN-40: not so positive

[+TotemLake]

I see some good points with the PN-40 itself, but don't see how anyone could or would try and make the mapping interface and functionality of the TOPO software seem like anything but a real pain in the ......

 

The TOPO data within the software itself is crude at best, and leaves quite a bit to be desired, even when compared to actual paper 1:100,000 scale maps. I'm not sure if the problems lie with the methology used in converting the maps to a vector format, or if the database used was a DEM of some sort with features overlaid, sometimes quite crudely. The street data can be just as bad, depending on the area you're trying to navigate to. Granted it's more or less free with the unit, but then again it's a case of getting what you paid for.

 

As for downloading real topo maps, or aerial photos, it's extemely time consuming, far from simple, and quite memory intensive. If you got the unit to go out and play with rather than spend forever trying to program it you're going to be in for a surprise. I like doing weekend trips to widely varying areas, and to try and use this for useage like that would require far to much time just trying to download and cut my data. It seems odd to me that Delorme made it so much more difficult than it needs to be. If you've played with TOPOFusion, ExpertGPS, or similar programs that download the same sort of data onto your own hard drive you're likely to be even more frustrated because programs like that make it so easy.

 

What you're forgetting, is once it is downloaded, cut, and ready for the GPS that's the only time you have to do it.

 

Dancing bear concept or not, again, the complaint is superfluous when put in the proper context considering nobody else offers this kind of flexibility. Yes there is work to be done up front, but it wasn't like you didn't know that before you bought the unit when it is always brought up in all the threads as a complaint about the GPS everytime.

 

In the defense of every PN-40 owner, I will also add there is not a single owner that indicated the process was anything but labor intensive. To even come in to this thinking it would be a walk in the park to download, cut and export is purely a software glitch between the chair and the keyboard.

Edited March 24, 2009 by TotemLake

[+roadrage64]

I think I'll watch this one for a while..........

I'm in the same row.

 

For some reason I just can't come up with a reason to replace my 76CSx.

 

Jim

 

Same for me with my 60CSx

[MtnHermit]

I see some good points with the PN-40 itself, but don't see how anyone could or would try and make the mapping interface and functionality of the TOPO software seem like anything but a real pain in the ......

 

The TOPO data within the software itself is crude at best, and leaves quite a bit to be desired, even when compared to actual paper 1:100,000 scale maps. I'm not sure if the problems lie with the methology used in converting the maps to a vector format, or if the database used was a DEM of some sort with features overlaid, sometimes quite crudely. The street data can be just as bad, depending on the area you're trying to navigate to. Granted it's more or less free with the unit, but then again it's a case of getting what you paid for.

 

As for downloading real topo maps, or aerial photos, it's extemely time consuming, far from simple, and quite memory intensive. If you got the unit to go out and play with rather than spend forever trying to program it you're going to be in for a surprise. I like doing weekend trips to widely varying areas, and to try and use this for useage like that would require far to much time just trying to download and cut my data. It seems odd to me that Delorme made it so much more difficult than it needs to be. If you've played with TOPOFusion, ExpertGPS, or similar programs that download the same sort of data onto your own hard drive you're likely to be even more frustrated because programs like that make it so easy.

It's the maps stupid!!! Basically that's the point you're making. Most of the PN-40 fanboys don't, won't get it.

 

I have all of CO & UT at 24K resolution inside my GPS at all times. Yes these vector maps are not as pretty as the paper topos, contours will be on top of the water as you pointed out earlier. But in ALL functional respects they are identical to USGS Topos. That to me is freedom! I no longer mess with mapping programs prior to a trip. And if I'm stuck in my tent during a rain event, wonderful entertainment.

[+Tek_guy and Countrygirl48]

1. WAAS. PN-40 in practice is not a WAAS-enabled GPS. With firmware 2.0 the best I could get was one blue bar for a few seconds. With 2.5 I was able to get a lock once after spending 30 minutes in the middle of the stadium. I was not able to do that again anywhere including the top of the hill with 20 miles clear view in all directions.

I have gotten a full WAAS lock on 10+ satellites while driving several times. I've gotten WAAS lock on fewer satellites on more occasions.

 

The Garmin Oregon uses the same GPS chipset and has the same problems. It's not a DeLorme problem, it's an STM Cartesio problem.

 

IMHO, this is a bogus defense. DeLorme (as well as Garmin) chose to use these chipsets, and it is their responsibility to make the units perform as advertised.

Edited March 24, 2009 by bdev

[+dakboy]

1. WAAS. PN-40 in practice is not a WAAS-enabled GPS. With firmware 2.0 the best I could get was one blue bar for a few seconds. With 2.5 I was able to get a lock once after spending 30 minutes in the middle of the stadium. I was not able to do that again anywhere including the top of the hill with 20 miles clear view in all directions.

I have gotten a full WAAS lock on 10+ satellites while driving several times. I've gotten WAAS lock on fewer satellites on more occasions.

 

The Garmin Oregon uses the same GPS chipset and has the same problems. It's not a DeLorme problem, it's an STM Cartesio problem.

 

IMHO, this is a bogus defense. DeLorme (as well as Garmin) chose to use these chipsets, and it is their responsibility to make the units perform as advertised.

You can't fix software you don't have the source code for, and you can't change the hardware once it's in the field.

 

DeLorme & Garmin signed on with a piece of hardware that turns out to not be working as well as some end-users want it to work (personally, I have no complaints about the accuracy of my PN-40, WAAS or not), and they're constrained by whatever contracts they have with STM to get it fixed.

[+Tek_guy and Countrygirl48]

1. WAAS. PN-40 in practice is not a WAAS-enabled GPS. With firmware 2.0 the best I could get was one blue bar for a few seconds. With 2.5 I was able to get a lock once after spending 30 minutes in the middle of the stadium. I was not able to do that again anywhere including the top of the hill with 20 miles clear view in all directions.

I have gotten a full WAAS lock on 10+ satellites while driving several times. I've gotten WAAS lock on fewer satellites on more occasions.

 

The Garmin Oregon uses the same GPS chipset and has the same problems. It's not a DeLorme problem, it's an STM Cartesio problem.

 

IMHO, this is a bogus defense. DeLorme (as well as Garmin) chose to use these chipsets, and it is their responsibility to make the units perform as advertised.

You can't fix software you don't have the source code for, and you can't change the hardware once it's in the field.

 

DeLorme & Garmin signed on with a piece of hardware that turns out to not be working as well as some end-users want it to work (personally, I have no complaints about the accuracy of my PN-40, WAAS or not), and they're constrained by whatever contracts they have with STM to get it fixed.

 

And DeLorme & Garmin advertised a product that would perform a certain way. They are responsible for the customers that paid them for their product to deliver what they advertised. If I buy a car from Ford, and I have a problem with the alternator (or whatever, name a part), I complain to Ford. I don't care who built the alternator, I paid Ford. They are responsible for getting it working. I'm not going to find out who made the alternator and go complain to them, that would be Ford's responsibility.

[aud78]

Wow, there was quite some activity here! I really appreciate everyone's replies. And I must say that getting such a detailed reply from the company employee on a third party forum within hours and on weekend - is truly amazing. I could not agree more with GIDEONkjv that this makes DeLorme to stand out from the crowd in today's worsening customer service culture.

 

Here are a few updates, clarifications and new problem reports.

 

Bugs

 

14. Track recording stopped once Active Track was full. I hiked about 12 miles yesterday with intention to cover whole hike with geotagged photos for Google Earth/Panoramio. I forgot to save an Active Track day before yesterday and when I started it was 80% or so full. I was checking the GPS every 5-10 minutes and observed the green active track being recorded as always. After about 6 miles and couple dozen of photos I noticed that there was no more green line next to the current position. Once zoomed out, I saw that 0.5 miles or so behind me were not recorded. Once I switched to the track page, I found "record" set to "on" but track memory showed "0%". There was a new track in the track list with yesterday's date. I saved the active track, turned device off and on and then recording resumed at the current position. This way I lost about 0.5 miles of track record and locations of couple photos.

 

15. Track got corrupted with no way to be copied into Topo or viewed on device. Once I got home, I was able to copy the Active Track to the Topo. But I got "Error retrieving data (Can't open track)" once I tried to copy the automatically saved one (see above). Topo 7 displays its length and point count but does not let to copy it. This way I lost about 6 miles more of track record and location of a dozen of photos.

 

16. Partial imagery display. I downloaded 4 quads of color aerial, created a single map file (I believe it was 15 mb) and uploaded to the unit. I only saw 20% or so of the first quad and no other quads at all, no matter what I did. I recreated the map file and reuploaded to the PN-40 but got identical result. Then I saved each quad as an individual map and once uploaded to the unit, everything worked as expected.

 

Updates/clarifications

 

2. Accuracy. Yesterday after looking for cache for good 5 minutes, I suddenly realized that I am observing 100% proof of too optimistic accuracy estimate. Here's what happened: slowly walking towards the spot I saw remaining distance gradually decreasing and accuracy estimate occasionally switching between 6,8 and 10 feet. Once I was <2 feet away, suddenly PN-40 suggested another direction and the remaining distance instantly changed to 17, 24, 34 and more feet, keeping the same accuracy estimate. The same happened many times. The location this happened was within yards from the 100 feet tall boulder and with plenty of smaller boulders.

 

3. Loosing lock. To Chip: all cases of loosing lock happened with 2.5. May I propose not so elegant but easy and effective solution: introduce a setting "restart unit automatically if GPS lock is not reestablished in ... minutes" (configurable amount of minutes). That would be good enough for my needs.

 

5. Screen. Moving "current position" marker way down would be very helpful for my use.

 

8. Topo. Yesterday I hiked a segment of Appalachian trail and here is another example of grossly inaccurate map. Trail is off by hundreds of feet and shows nonexistent twists (e.g. N41° 15.7862' W74° 8.9059'). I have no idea how mapping business works and if providers share or buy each other's data, but in this particular case NJ NY Trail Commission has a very accurate digital map - in case you are interested in improving Topo's accuracy.

 

9. Imagery. To Searching_ut: the disappointment for me actually was not only the quality of the imagery but also the DeLorme's business model. Before purchasing PN-50 I had impression (due to the lack of research of course) that DeLorme owns commercial satellite imagery which it is licensing for use on Topo 7 and GPS units. But what I found was that they are actually selling public domain USGS imagery which is free for everyone for any use. So essentially they are charging $30/year for the permission to use the feature (raster/imagery in GPS) for which you already paid buying the unit.

 

11. Netlink. TotemLake user also reported email delivery problem last week and my next attempt was a lot more successful - I got email within minutes and I reached download speed of about 200k.

 

12. Speed. To Chip: 5 seconds was when zooming out to the area covering hundreds of miles of imported trails and at least 100 of waypoints, no imagery. Identical map draws in about 0.3 seconds on my old Magellan Crossover

 

13. Battery power. To TotemLake: I easily get 3D lock inside my house and train with no power save and only see couple red bars with power save on. This was constantly reproducible.

 

Conclusion part II

 

As I write this post my unit is already back in store. In addition to loosing lock I just could not accept the fact it lost my track data. I wish DeLorme and its users all the best and I am pretty sure I will be soon looking at the PN-60 with a larger screen, file system-like access to tracks and waypoints, good battery life and significantly improved GPS reliability.

 

To CowboyPapa: I wish I knew the answer. On paper Bushnell Onix 400 looks really great - has large screen, satellite imagery, real time XM radar maps showing approaching rain/snow, true power saving mode and all kinds of other stuff you may only dream about. But when I google for reviews, I can find just a handful which are either on extreme positive or extreme negative side and neither detailed nor specific (like mine ). Reputable stores like B&H mark it as a "special item" which cannot be returned even after one day. Something is wrong and I am not going that way. If anyone could point me to quality info about Onix, would really appreciate it. I’ll start a new topic.

 

I realize that ideal gadget for my needs would be a waterproof tough Windows Mobile unit with good battery life and built in high quality GPS receiver. After some research I found Trimble GeoXT, but chuckled once saw the price. 7k+

 

I am thinking about giving Oregon a try. Probably I will go to the Best Buy on a bright sunny day and ask a sales rep to walk with me outside so I can take a look at the screen without the hassle of buying and returning it.

 

MtnHermit, here are a few pictures of Oregon in sunlight I found on web. Does not look too promising compared to your Colorado. 1, 2, 3

 

Aud

[+RRLover]

NOT being provocative; looking forward to a report on your experience w/the new Lowrance unit!

"Wink, wink, nudge nudge!"

 

Norm

Edited March 24, 2009 by RRLover

[+TotemLake]

Wow, there was quite some activity here! I really appreciate everyone's replies. And I must say that getting such a detailed reply from the company employee on a third party forum within hours and on weekend - is truly amazing. I could not agree more with GIDEONkjv that this makes DeLorme to stand out from the crowd in today's worsening customer service culture.

 

Here are a few updates, clarifications and new problem reports.

 

That's a fair response and I don't think anyone can fault you for it. Well... maybe someone can, but you won't hear it from my camp.

[+embra]

Bugs

 

14. Track recording stopped once Active Track was full. I hiked about 12 miles yesterday with intention to cover whole hike with geotagged photos for Google Earth/Panoramio. I forgot to save an Active Track day before yesterday and when I started it was 80% or so full. I was checking the GPS every 5-10 minutes and observed the green active track being recorded as always. After about 6 miles and couple dozen of photos I noticed that there was no more green line next to the current position. Once zoomed out, I saw that 0.5 miles or so behind me were not recorded. Once I switched to the track page, I found "record" set to "on" but track memory showed "0%". There was a new track in the track list with yesterday's date. I saved the active track, turned device off and on and then recording resumed at the current position. This way I lost about 0.5 miles of track record and locations of couple photos.

 

15. Track got corrupted with no way to be copied into Topo or viewed on device.

Losing track data sucks. FWIW, it's the first time I've heard of a problem like that in transferring the track data, but I know that's no consolation when it's your data that has the dubious honor of possibly breaking new ground.

 

Just to clarify on the track recording stopping when full, it's a design feature. There are options in the track settings menu to stop recording when full, begin overwriting the current track, or to automatically save the full tracklog and start a new one. That last option would probably be a better default that what you must have had yours on (presumably the factory setting).

 

Ah well...at least you're making an informed choice. Thanks for sharing your experience with it.

[+coggins]

 

9. Imagery. To Searching_ut: the disappointment for me actually was not only the quality of the imagery but also the DeLorme's business model. Before purchasing PN-50 I had impression (due to the lack of research of course) that DeLorme owns commercial satellite imagery which it is licensing for use on Topo 7 and GPS units. But what I found was that they are actually selling public domain USGS imagery which is free for everyone for any use. So essentially they are charging $30/year for the permission to use the feature (raster/imagery in GPS) for which you already paid buying the unit.

 

Aud

That's not exactly true. They are selling a service. Let's put it this way, so you download some orthoimagery from the USGS. How are you going to get in into your "PN-50" (sic)? Got xMap? What's that cost? Their service will get you the files in a format that can be used with TOPO US 7.

[+OpenTrackRacer]

The PN-40 (and Topo) are certainly not perfect. I think we can all agree that no products are. That being said, it becomes a matter of trade-offs and priorities.

 

The PN-40 is obviously not working for Aud's application. However, from looking at his comments compared to my experiences and those of many other, I think the PN-40 he had was likely defective. It certainly happens... my first unit rapidly turned into a brick. Fortunatelly, DeLorme was nice enough to FedEx me a replacement unit that I received the next day.

 

Personally, I find the PN-40 as easy to use as all the Garmin units I've had. I like a few things changed but that's no different than any other unit either. The nice thing is that DeLorme listens and the things that have high demand are implemented, which is wonderful. Topo is not pretty but it's not as bad as some people make it out to be. Once you get used to it and learn a few tricks, it's no worse than MapSource. Downloading maps and imagery is pretty clunky but again, once you do it a bit you learn tricks to really hustle through it. It needs improvement however. The simple act of allowing users to select whatever size area they want and then having the software break it up in to chucks would solve most of the problems. The same goes for cutting maps. I've had no problems downloading so far.

 

For my uses, the aerial photography and USGS topo maps are the killer app. Besides Geocaching, I use my GPS for off-roading and exploring. USGS maps are my favorite and having them on the PN-40 is worth the price of admission alone. They show things that don't make it to other maps. For exploring, they're priceless. They're also fairly compact so I can download huge areas and have them on the PN-40 in addition to DeLorme's topo maps. Aerial imagery (color and black and white) has also proven to be a big asset. They can reveal things you don't see on any map. The image quality is not as good as Google Earth but in many cases it's good enough. Many of the places I go have no cell coverage so it's the PN-40 or nothing.

 

My most recent GPS before the PN-40 was a 60CSx (which I sadly sold today). It was a great unit and I had tons of maps loaded. It was great to have all the western states on there at all times but not really all that useful. I don't often make sudden cross-state trips and for places I go often, I have precut datasets for the PN-40 ready to go (in addition to DeLorme topo maps for a huge part of California, Arizona and Nevada loaded at all times).

 

It'll be interesting to see how things develop with the PN-40 with regards to data exchange and importing other vector maps. A 1:24K vector topo map would be very nice and fill the only open niche remaining but for me, it's not a deal killer. I used the 60CSx with 1:24K topo maps and my PN-40 side by side for a while and found the PN-40 to be more useful in every case (which is why I sold the 60CSx).

 

Time will tell.

[+Team CowboyPapa]

 

9. Imagery. To Searching_ut: the disappointment for me actually was not only the quality of the imagery but also the DeLorme's business model. Before purchasing PN-50 I had impression (due to the lack of research of course) that DeLorme owns commercial satellite imagery which it is licensing for use on Topo 7 and GPS units. But what I found was that they are actually selling public domain USGS imagery which is free for everyone for any use. So essentially they are charging $30/year for the permission to use the feature (raster/imagery in GPS) for which you already paid buying the unit.

 

Aud

And the lower cost alternative is .............

Which images can be loaded on to the following handheld models .........

With one-stop single source how-to, manage instructions similar to these:

http://delormepn40.wikispaces.com/How+To

 

Outside to that I'll be asking my attorney to file suit for misleading advertising and fraud.

[aud78]

And the lower cost alternative is .............

 

If nobody criticized things without having a better alternative… what would be an incentive to create that better alternative in the first place? You would be geocaching by stars now

[MtnHermit]

Thanks Aud,

 

Reminds me of my Nuvi, unreadable w/o backlight. The single biggest reason I went with the Colorado.

 

MtnHermit, here are a few pictures of Oregon in sunlight I found on web. Does not look too promising compared to your Colorado.

 

 

 

[+Team CowboyPapa]

And the lower cost alternative is .............

 

If nobody criticized things without having a better alternative… what would be an incentive to create that better alternative in the first place? You would be geocaching by stars now

So perfect, until we have a lower cost alternative, we download nothing as the DeLorme imagery is a riptoff?

Is that the conclusion?

[+Rockin Roddy]

Thanks Aud,

 

Reminds me of my Nuvi, unreadable w/o backlight. The single biggest reason I went with the Colorado.

 

MtnHermit, here are a few pictures of Oregon in sunlight I found on web. Does not look too promising compared to your Colorado.

 

 

 

 

Is that really the screen everyone says is soooo much bigger and better than the PN-40's??

[+Maingray]

 

Is that really the screen everyone says is soooo much bigger and better than the PN-40's??

 

If it was truly that bad I certainly wouldn't be using it.

[+Rockin Roddy]

 

Is that really the screen everyone says is soooo much bigger and better than the PN-40's??

 

If it was truly that bad I certainly wouldn't be using it.

 

I find it hard to believe 3 separate pictures could be lying...but that's not all. What about the size? It's not that much bigger looking than the 60CSx sitting right beside it, is it? And those smudge marks are telling, a touchscreen will always get smudged up!

 

But we're getting off topic again, better to stay on topic!

Edited March 25, 2009 by Rockin Roddy

[+Maingray]

 

I find it hard to believe 3 separate pictures could be lying...but that's not all. What about the size? It's not that much bigger looking than the 60CSx sitting right beside it, is it? And those smudge marks are telling, a touchscreen will always get smudged up!

 

But we're getting off topic again, better to stay on topic!

 

Yes, you are. Back on topic and away from fantasy-land... it's waaay bigger than the PN-40.

 

Good review by the way in the OP... some of those concerns were shared by me. I do disagree on the downloads complaint... the $30 sub is VERY good value and I had no problems with d/l speed.

[+Team CowboyPapa]

....the $30 sub is VERY good value ......

And at the risk of being accused of another apples to oranges comparison, my 22GB of DeLorme imagery for $30 is millions of times less than an 99¢, 4KB song download, such as

 

http://www.amazon.com/Necks-White-Socks-Bl...56&sr=102-2

 

iTunes, anyone?

[+fizzymagic]

Many of the concerns raised are valid, IMO. I, too, had a negative reaction to some of the PN-40 quirks when I first got it. But since the release of version 2.5 of the firmware, and the plugin for geocaches, I am liking the unit more and more. To my mind, it is the best value for the cost out there.

 

Are there things I wish were different? Definitely. But no show-stoppers, although the WAAS thing was close for a while there. I find the people who keep attacking those who bring up legitimate complaints extremely irritating. If you love the unit, and it meets your needs, that's fine, but quit telling other people how to feel! Me, I am beginning to love my unit, too, but I don't see it as my life's work to squelch all criticism of it.

 

I have come up with work-arounds for many of the most annoying things; for example, I've written little applications that solve a lot of geocaching problems. I had done that with my previous GPS, too, but I don't think I had noticed how much because I did it over a longer time span.

 

It's all a matter of understanding and getting used to your instrument. Little things have made a big difference for my everyday use: the rechargeable travel kit and a RAM mount (that mini-USB adapter should be standard with the PN-40!) were definitely worth the cost.

 

I am convinced that Delorme is working on improving the device, and I am glad I committed to them for the future.

[+Triple Crown]

I have a 60Csx and really like it, but I was enamored with the PN-40 satellite imagery so I bought it.

 

My impressions.

 

Satellite imagery, very cool for seeing which trails the caches are on, but you can't zoom in too far or it gets blurry. The imagery on an Iphone (which I don't have) is much more impressive at very high zoom, but you need 3G reception for it to work well.

 

No problems at all with accuracy or getting locks, the GPSr worked perfectly, it was the user interface problems that need more work.

 

I love that the geocaching mode allows me to see whole cache pages and enter logs in the field.

 

Topo7, it does a lot more than I will ever need, so the learning curve is very steep, and it took me 3 days to download aerial imagery for San Diego county and load it onto the unit. The $30 map subscription is a good deal, but you are going to spend a lot of time learning how to use it. Choosing & cutting maps is too time consuming. The downloads are excruciatingly slow.

 

The screen is relatively small, but because the fonts for geocache pages are large and easy to read, text is much easier to read than the on the 60Csx or Oregon.

 

DeLorme has hands down the best customer support in the industry, great forum and very responsive.

 

Unfortunately the PN-40 default settings are terrible for geocaching. I had the 2.5 beta firmware. The unit is not intuitive for new users and I had to change a lot of settings on almost every page. Street routing is clunky and hard to manage, the maps are great, but the street names are not displayed which greatly limits utility(probably another setting but I never did get it work well).

 

I tried the unit for a month before I finally gave up. I think the CacheRegister interface will make a huge difference. Until then, there are major problems. When loading a PQ, it frequently 'lost' caches, 300 caches sent, only 230 arrived on the unit. Not good enough. Cool field notes when you find a cache...later, where did they go? How can I retrieve them?

 

I'm really looking forward to the next model. A bigger screen, backlighted buttons, more intuitive menus. I want a unit geared for me. IMO Garmin fell on its face with the Colorado, but fixed most of the problems (except waypoint averaging!) with the Oregon. Hopefully DeLorme will do something similar with its next model..

 

I'm getting an Oregon next, but if it's not a great leap forward from my 60Csx, it's going back too.

 

Hope that helps.

[+Rockin Roddy]

I'm sorry fizzy, but I don't see others attacking the OP, but giving our experience in a "side-by-side" comparison of experiences! If my rebutting someone's problems with my experiences which are completely different is attacking, then I guess we should let the few with problems sway everyone to believe the PN series is trash and we should all just throw them away and nary a DeLorme shall exist! You can be irritated if that's how you see it, I will continue to give my experiences, sorry!

 

Now, I'm going to ask a few questions in an attempt to better understand:

 

To triple crown...when you say the field notes disappeared, how? Did you ever download the field notes or did they often just poof and gone (not an attack, just trying to understand)? I personally have never had a field note disappear (and sorry if this is attacking you for giving my experience), I have found the field notes very helpful.

 

On the street names not showing...did you try street view setting in your map setup management menu? It's default setting is to show topo.

 

The street routing...did you set the unit to automatically get you back on course?

 

The Topo 7....were your abilities to use the GPS hampered because of the learning curve? Also, did you just plug along trying to learn this on your own, or did you follow one of the many step-by-step processes which someone who took the time to learn the software so caringly put out there for all to use?

 

The loading of the caches by PQ, is that problem the result of the workaround (I would have to think so), or do you think this is how the unit will always work?

 

I ask these questions, not to attack you, but to see what you did and to maybe learn how your experience was different than mine! Here are my rebuttals (and again, not an attack here, just giving my observations so others can judge for themselves):

 

Yes, it's a bit of a learning curve, but since you can learn as you go and still have full functionality of the GPS while learning, I feel the software is great and well worth learning (and as Triple Crown stated, it does a darned lot). I tried the trial sub (meaning I had just bought the unit) and had no problems when following the step-by-step...however, I did make a mistake when I got too cocky (and because of a nyquil buzz) and then had to strip all maps from my unit and start over (I was able to fix my mistake without the need to send it in and before anybody had to tell me what t do, gotta love that).

 

As for the PQ comment, I bought my PN-40 knowing some areas needed work, I knew well before I bought that the cache register app was in the works and I'd have to be patient. I was and am very happy to see the progress, and, since I can load all the caches I want with the send to function, I have yet to use the PQ workaround. Didn't you know about the issues at hand?

 

Yes, the default settings make some of the workings unsatisfactory, but with a bit of experiment and some asking, I was able to get mine set to work nicely! Would it be nice if they defaulted the settings to how I want to use it out of the box, but I doubt the designers know exactly how I want to use it! A few changes and life is good!

 

Lastly, I am very slow when it comes to tech, something I've acknowledged all along, but I had little trouble learning how to use the unit, how to download caches (pre-update), how to clip maps and download etc. If I can do it, I can imagine most anyone can! It's just a matter of wanting to. And the loading speed of maps...well, I also hate the drive time to Vegas, but without the help of a time warp, I'm stuck with it. In other words, unless someone is interested in teaching me (and everyone else who doesn't have the tech to get their own maps) how to bring in maps from an outside source faster, I'll not complain.

 

WARNING SCREEN ATTACK BELOW:

 

And as a parting shot on the screen, really?? Looking at it side-by-side with the 60CSx (which I recall someone calling itty bitty), it looks MUCH smaller than the CO and almost the same size as the 60CSx. Knowing the PN is only a bit smaller than the 60CSx, I just don't see this "picture window" so many have touted it to be! Hearing so many tell us how well they can see their screens on the OR and then actually seeing the screens side-by-side with other, better to see screens, I am left wondering if maybe some were merely wishing?

[MtnHermit]

Is that really the screen everyone says is soooo much bigger and better than the PN-40's??

You're really missing the point of the CO & OR screen, it isn't so much about bigger, rather resolution. Unlike a TV where the screen resolution is the same regardless of size, on these handheld GPS screens the resolution varies by a factor of three. To amplify the point, here's a comparison I put together in June, prior to buying a Nuvi:

 

I assume you're aware that the PN-40 has the same screen resolution/size as the Vista? It's the triple number of pixels which makes the CO & OR screens so much better. At any map zoom level, the CO & OR will display three times the map area as a Vista/PN-40, that's significant! You might be tempted to infer that smaller pixels would not be as readable, not my experience. With a handheld device, the hand and the eye quickly find an optimum viewing position, faster than I can write a sentence.

 

In addition, the CO has 4 classes of adjustable text sizes, roads, WPs, etc. On my CO I have 3/4 set to the smallest text size and find all to be very legible.

 

Of course, as pointed out by the OP, the OR lacks for daylight visibility.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Is that really the screen everyone says is soooo much bigger and better than the PN-40's??

You're really missing the point of the CO & OR screen, it isn't so much about bigger, rather resolution. Unlike a TV where the screen resolution is the same regardless of size, on these handheld GPS screens the resolution varies by a factor of three. To amplify the point, here's a comparison I put together in June, prior to buying a Nuvi:

 

I assume you're aware that the PN-40 has the same screen resolution/size as the Vista? It's the triple number of pixels which makes the CO & OR screens so much better. At any map zoom level, the CO & OR will display three times the map area as a Vista/PN-40, that's significant! You might be tempted to infer that smaller pixels would not be as readable, not my experience. With a handheld device, the hand and the eye quickly find an optimum viewing position, faster than I can write a sentence.

 

In addition, the CO has 4 classes of adjustable text sizes, roads, WPs, etc. On my CO I have 3/4 set to the smallest text size and find all to be very legible.

 

Of course, as pointed out by the OP, the OR lacks for daylight visibility.

 

I don't think I'm missing a thing, the prictures speak very loudly for themselves! You might have missed how one of the posters screamed ITTY BITTY every chance he got....so I don't believe he was talking about pixels, but size of screen! I'm not tempted to infer anything, I'll merely let the picture say all it says!!

[MtnHermit]

I don't think I'm missing a thing, the prictures speak very loudly for themselves! You might have missed how one of the posters screamed ITTY BITTY every chance he got....so I don't believe he was talking about pixels, but size of screen! I'm not tempted to infer anything, I'll merely let the picture say all it says!!

Oh, so much anger!!!

[+Maingray]

Unfortunately I'm not sure if anyone around here kept their PN-40 so I can't take a side by side picture of screen size.

 

edit: actually I still have a Legend C knocking around which I think has a similar sized screen to the PN-40

Edited March 25, 2009 by Maingray

[+Rockin Roddy]

I don't think I'm missing a thing, the prictures speak very loudly for themselves! You might have missed how one of the posters screamed ITTY BITTY every chance he got....so I don't believe he was talking about pixels, but size of screen! I'm not tempted to infer anything, I'll merely let the picture say all it says!!

Oh, so much anger!!!

 

More like amazed!!

[+Triple Crown]

From Rockin Roddy:

 

Now, I'm going to ask a few questions in an attempt to better understand:

 

To triple crown...when you say the field notes disappeared, how? Did you ever download the field notes or did they often just poof and gone (not an attack, just trying to understand)? I personally have never had a field note disappear (and sorry if this is attacking you for giving my experience), I have found the field notes very helpful.

 

--I wanted to look at my field notes on the unit, not download them to the computer first. Couldn't find them.

 

On the street names not showing...did you try street view setting in your map setup management menu? It's default setting is to show topo.

 

--I don't remember. It showed the streets but only the names of a few, and it called I-8 (8 lanes!) Camino Del Rio N. which is the parallel access road.

 

The street routing...did you set the unit to automatically get you back on course?

 

--It took a few tries to figure out that I needed to tell the unit I still wanted to navigate to the assigned point (another default settings issue)

 

The Topo 7....were your abilities to use the GPS hampered because of the learning curve? Also, did you just plug along trying to learn this on your own, or did you follow one of the many step-by-step processes which someone who took the time to learn the software so caringly put out there for all to use?

 

--The tutorials posted on the DeLorme forum were awesome, I couldn't have done anything without them, but I guess thats part of the problem, I needed lots of help from users to get anything done.

 

The loading of the caches by PQ, is that problem the result of the workaround (I would have to think so), or do you think this is how the unit will always work?

 

--I believe the problem is related to the workaround, but the DeLorme product isn't available yet, so if I wanted to go caching now, I had to work with what was available now.

 

Yes, it's a bit of a learning curve, but since you can learn as you go and still have full functionality of the GPS while learning, I feel the software is great and well worth learning (and as Triple Crown stated, it does a darned lot). I tried the trial sub (meaning I had just bought the unit) and had no problems when following the step-by-step...however, I did make a mistake when I got too cocky (and because of a nyquil buzz) and then had to strip all maps from my unit and start over (I was able to fix my mistake without the need to send it in and before anybody had to tell me what t do, gotta love that).

 

As for the PQ comment, I bought my PN-40 knowing some areas needed work, I knew well before I bought that the cache register app was in the works and I'd have to be patient. I was and am very happy to see the progress, and, since I can load all the caches I want with the send to function, I have yet to use the PQ workaround. Didn't you know about the issues at hand?

 

--I think I got sucked into the 'CacheRegister will be released any day now' hope. As of today, it doesn't do what I need it to do as well as my older unit.

 

Yes, the default settings make some of the workings unsatisfactory, but with a bit of experiment and some asking, I was able to get mine set to work nicely! Would it be nice if they defaulted the settings to how I want to use it out of the box, but I doubt the designers know exactly how I want to use it! A few changes and life is good!

 

--As you can see, some of my problems were operator error, but if the unit were more intuitive and user friendly they could be avoided. The unit is capable of lots of great things, but the bottom line for me was that it was too difficult to use and it required way too much time to learn.

 

The screen debate is a matter of personal preference. For me, the screen size wasn't a problem on the PN-40 but compared to the Oregon it is smaller and has lower resolution. It's almost the same as my 60Csx, but for me the tradeoff of cool imagery was not worth the frustrations of finding and adjusting all of the settings I needed. I tried it for a month (I try to cache daily), so I feel like that was a reasonable amount of time.

[+Rockin Roddy]

To triple crown...when you say the field notes disappeared, how? Did you ever download the field notes or did they often just poof and gone (not an attack, just trying to understand)? I personally have never had a field note disappear (and sorry if this is attacking you for giving my experience), I have found the field notes very helpful.

 

--I wanted to look at my field notes on the unit, not download them to the computer first. Couldn't find them.

 

Yes, that is an annoynce, I agree with you on this. It would be nice to be able to see the notes on the GPS and even edit!

 

On the street names not showing...did you try street view setting in your map setup management menu? It's default setting is to show topo.

 

--I don't remember. It showed the streets but only the names of a few, and it called I-8 (8 lanes!) Camino Del Rio N. which is the parallel access road.

 

I'd be willing to bet you needed to change that setting. Not sure what to tell you on the road being misnamed.

 

The street routing...did you set the unit to automatically get you back on course?

 

--It took a few tries to figure out that I needed to tell the unit I still wanted to navigate to the assigned point (another default settings issue)

 

You need to change the defult to make the back on track work automatically. It's in the routes menu, I think.

 

The Topo 7....were your abilities to use the GPS hampered because of the learning curve? Also, did you just plug along trying to learn this on your own, or did you follow one of the many step-by-step processes which someone who took the time to learn the software so caringly put out there for all to use?

 

--The tutorials posted on the DeLorme forum were awesome, I couldn't have done anything without them, but I guess thats part of the problem, I needed lots of help from users to get anything done.

 

I too used the forums to teach me, a lot better than trying to read the manual. I learned it after the first couple times and can do it with no problems at all. It's just a matter of learning the steps, this would be true with most units, I think!

 

The loading of the caches by PQ, is that problem the result of the workaround (I would have to think so), or do you think this is how the unit will always work?

 

--I believe the problem is related to the workaround, but the DeLorme product isn't available yet, so if I wanted to go caching now, I had to work with what was available now.

 

Understandable, but you really can load them very easily with the send to feature. I know, one at a time...but it's not like it's a long drawn out process. One click, four check marks and move on to the next! I have around 200 caches on my unit right now, all loaded one at a time, and we've found probably close to 100 since getting the unit! I am happy to do the send to until the cache register is out! Also, no hurries, I'd rather see a perfect working model than something needing fixed right out of the chute!

 

--I think I got sucked into the 'CacheRegister will be released any day now' hope. As of today, it doesn't do what I need it to do as well as my older unit.

 

I think you're mistaking the update promise with the cache register promise! I believe they promised the update and then the CR app would follow soon! It has been a bit longer than they said, but read my last comment!!

 

--As you can see, some of my problems were operator error, but if the unit were more intuitive and user friendly they could be avoided. The unit is capable of lots of great things, but the bottom line for me was that it was too difficult to use and it required way too much time to learn.

 

Sure. And if my brain were easier to work with, I'd be a billionaire instead of where I am right now! I agree that some things could have been set up better, but I was able to figure out a lot merely by playing with the unit...and by reading the forums here and at DeLorme!! I'm tech slow, but I'm willing to learn! It all boils down to what best suits you though, I hope you find something you like! I have heard good things about the Endura!

 

As many have said, the PN-40 isn't perfect by any means, but what GPS is? I won't try to pretend I am 100% happy with my PN-40, but I'm not upset enough to spend hundreds extra to get about the same! As has also been said, the PN-40 is likely the best bargain for the features on the market today!

 

Waiting patiently for the PN-60 though....can't wait to see what DeLorme cooks up next!

[+Klemmer]

I own several Garmins, a Magellan, and a Delorme PN-20 and PN-40. Lately, every time I head out hiking, geocaching or benchmark hunting, I have the PN-40 on my belt. I guess I'm just a Delorme "fanboy". I have my choice, I chose. I'm quite happy with it. It's mostly about the maps, for me. Your results may vary. To each his own.

[+embra]

There seems to be a "luck of the draw" factor. Those of us who have had reliable operation have confidence in them, those who have had more than an incidental lockup, reboot, or bricking can't feel confident that it won't happen again (and again). It's hard to sort out how many of each of those categories are populated, but I do know Tigerz is not the only one to have that happen.

[+Searching_ut]

For whatever reason, the PN-40 seem to inspire emotional responses, and make discussion of the unit more colorful than it probably deserves. As for the unit itself some of the main discussions seem to be along the lines of:

 

Maps. This is an area I consider to be a weakness of the unit. Starting with the TOPO 7 software which is very rough for navigation use. The road data has all the problems the Census bureau tiger map data has always had, namely lack of accuracy and quite dated. Compared to most modern street databases, it’s crude at best. The Geographical data again is fairly lacking. The POI data is often inaccurate, and the terrain data isn’t even quite what you would expect from a 1:100,000 scale map even allowing for the errors induced by the process of converting to vector graphics. It would be interesting to learn for sure what it’s based on.

 

Downloadable maps at the 1:24k scale are nice, but not necessarily any better than what’s available for other units. The downloadable aerial photos have a nice kewl factor to them, but are kind of disappointing in the fact that where you’re starting with what should be 1 meter imagining, you end up with maybe 5 meter at best, with even something as big as a car being hard to identify thanks to the heavy compression which causes so much pixilation of the image. Overall, I’d rate the mapping capability as not bad, but they are somewhat hindered by a display that is marginal for trying to display any significant area at an acceptable resolution.

 

WAAS. Not to sound blasé, but this isn’t something I care that much about. In flat open terrain, I get a WAAS lock. In other areas, it does worse than most units, but my PN-40 seems accurate enough even without WAAS

 

Display. It’s exceptionally bright and easy to read in direct sunlight. If you’re transitioning through sun shade areas like in partial tree cover, it’s hurt by the fact you don’t feel comfortable using the backlight much. Display size, ie total number of pixels is on the small size, making it somewhat insufficient to try and display detailed maps in such a way as to be able to visualize your surroundings very well. Overall, excellent for navigation screens, somewhat lacking for map displays.

 

Reliability, mine has worked well other than a tenancy to lock when hooked to the computer.

 

Other observations. Backlight intensity prone to fluctuations, sound volume is quite low. The paperless cache function is fantastic, track recording functions only so so, and battery life is on the poor side. Finally, for some strange reason, the unit feels somewhat bulky. This I think is just me having a strange perception, because when you compare it side by side to something like and eTrex, it’s not that much bigger.

 

Bottom line, the sort of tool you can easily love and hate at the same time.

[+Jeff in Pa]

Bottom line, the sort of tool you can easily love and hate at the same time.

 

Thats a very good ending and I agree totally but then we all know that most if not all electronic gagets are that way. I suppose that is one of the attractions!

[+briansnat]

I own several Garmins, a Magellan, and a Delorme PN-20 and PN-40. Lately, every time I head out hiking, geocaching or benchmark hunting, I have the PN-40 on my belt.

 

How DO you keep it on your belt? That is one of my quarrels with the unit, no way to attach it to my belt so I have to keep it in a cargo pocket.

 

I don't want to buy a case that I have to keep opening and closing every time I want to look a the unit. I want to easily remove it from my belt so I can consult it.

 

I love the 60CSX clip. It's perfect. My eTrex has a protective case with a clip on back and I just slip it off the belt and I like the Colorado's carabiner clip. I haven't seen anything made for the DeLorme other than the case on their website and I'm not interested in something like that

[+user13371]

...How DO you keep it on your belt?

http://forum.delorme.com/viewtopic.php?p=101270#101270

[+OpenTrackRacer]

Thank's Lee, you saved me the trouble of finding that thread! As a down the road follow-up, the belt clip modification is still working great. It's made a big difference for me in the usability of the PN-40 because like Brian, I don't like pouches.

 

Going back to the PN-40, I agree about DeLorme's vector topo maps. They are quite lacking in details and features. The USGS quads make up for this in a big way (I like them better than vector topos but of course, you can't search) but can take some time to download and setup.

 

It would be VERY nice if DeLorme upgraded their maps. It's somewhat disturbing that as a mapping company, their maps are so outdated and primitive compared to other contemporary sources.

[MtnHermit]

The USGS quads make up for this in a big way (I like them better than vector topos but of course, you can't search)

Why do you like them better?

 

Thanks

[+TotemLake]

The USGS quads make up for this in a big way (I like them better than vector topos but of course, you can't search)

Why do you like them better?

 

Thanks

For me it's purely a personal preference for the USGS topo versus the vector topo. I've been using 24K maps since I started hiking. It provides old jeep road and other older archeological information that was otherwise abandoned and removed from current map information. It's nice to be able to relate the info on the paper-based maps directly on the GPS. I've noted certain features I can see on the 24K maps and find in real life is something that sometimes lacks with current vector imagery.

 

As noted with newer technology by those that use the argument... even the newer (read that as vector) maps doesn't necessarily correlate to being better.

[MtnHermit]

For me it's purely a personal preference for the USGS topo versus the vector topo. I've been using 24K maps since I started hiking. It provides old jeep road and other older archeological information that was otherwise abandoned and removed from current map information. It's nice to be able to relate the info on the paper-based maps directly on the GPS. I've noted certain features I can see on the 24K maps and find in real life is something that sometimes lacks with current vector imagery.

If you're carrying the paper maps also, then this makes a lot of sense. For me, I've totally abandoned paper maps due to the logistics.

 

As noted with newer technology by those that use the argument... even the newer (read that as vector) maps doesn't necessarily correlate to being better.

No question theirs a give and take. The raster topos have the beautiful art like look of the paper maps and more archeological info, but you can't touch an object and find out something, like a contour. At least with the PN-2/40 you have a choice.

[+TotemLake]

For me it's purely a personal preference for the USGS topo versus the vector topo. I've been using 24K maps since I started hiking. It provides old jeep road and other older archeological information that was otherwise abandoned and removed from current map information. It's nice to be able to relate the info on the paper-based maps directly on the GPS. I've noted certain features I can see on the 24K maps and find in real life is something that sometimes lacks with current vector imagery.

If you're carrying the paper maps also, then this makes a lot of sense. For me, I've totally abandoned paper maps due to the logistics.

 

As noted with newer technology by those that use the argument... even the newer (read that as vector) maps doesn't necessarily correlate to being better.

No question theirs a give and take. The raster topos have the beautiful art like look of the paper maps and more archeological info, but you can't touch an object and find out something, like a contour. At least with the PN-2/40 you have a choice.

I will never abandon the paper maps. I may never pull them out to look at anymore because of the PN-40, but I will have it with my compass if my GPS quits working.

[+volosong]

...but if you’re doing a multi-day camping trip I’d encourage the e2 Lithiums for optimum performance...

 

I just want to get off my spectator chair for a moment and emphasize this note from Chip. I've learned long ago that the Energizer e2 Lithium AA batteries last a long, long, long time in my dSLR; so naturally went with them in my PN-40. After about ten hours of use, they still register a full charge. More expensive than most AA, but you can get a three-pack of four from Sam's Club for about twenty bucks.

 

- - - - -

 

By the way, I've had my PN-40 for several months now and questioned the utility of imagery on such a small screen. So, for the past few weeks, I purchased and have been using a GPSmap 60Cx side-by-side with the PN-40. I much prefer the PN-40 over the 60Cx. (I don't use imagery yet on my PN-40.)

Edited April 7, 2009 by volosong

[+Jeff in Pa]

Isn't it great to have so many choices today! The 40, the 60, the Oregon, the Etrex line and the Colorado.. plus the other manufacturers! It sure is different from the days when I would walk into the woods and LOOSE reception! LOL... what good were the handhelds then?

 

Sorry I was just thinking how far technology has come and imagine where it will be in another 20>!

[+Pax42]

...but if you’re doing a multi-day camping trip I’d encourage the e2 Lithiums for optimum performance...

 

I just want to get off my spectator chair for a moment and emphasize this note from Chip. I've learned long ago that the Energizer e2 Lithium AA batteries last a long, long, long time in my dSLR; so naturally went with them in my PN-40. After about ten hours of use, they still register a full charge. More expensive than most AA, but you can get a three-pack of four from Sam's Club for about twenty bucks.

 

- - - - -

 

By the way, I've had my PN-40 for several months now and questioned the utility of imagery on such a small screen. So, for the past few weeks, I purchased and have been using a GPSmap 60Cx side-by-side with the PN-40. I much prefer the PN-40 over the 60Cx. (I don't use imagery yet on my PN-40.)

 

You might also look for the lithiums on Ebay. I've purchased new 4-packs from several sellers for as little as $5 per pack. I also recently started using the custom Li-ion produced by Cabornay and discussed on the Delorme forums (sold on Ebay as well) and find that it gets me nearly as good of performance as the lithiums.

[aud78]

If an owner of PN-40 could kindly measure actual current drawn by device in various conditions using ammeter, we could compare apples to apples. 60CSx draws 88 mA with no backlight and WAAS disabled. What’s the PN-40 number?

 

Garmin numbers are here.

 

Aud

[+Team CowboyPapa]

 

By the way, I've had my PN-40 for several months now and questioned the utility of imagery on such a small screen. So, for the past few weeks, I purchased and have been using a GPSmap 60Cx side-by-side with the PN-40. I much prefer the PN-40 over the 60Cx. (I don't use imagery yet on my PN-40.)

I don't use my PN-40 for road routing. Therefore, I've fallen into the habit of using the imagery exclusively for geocaching and for a majority of back country travel.

 

Give it a try and I think that you will be pleasantly surprised.

[+Tigerz]

If an owner of PN-40 could kindly measure actual current drawn by device in various conditions using ammeter, we could compare apples to apples. 60CSx draws 88 mA with no backlight and WAAS disabled. What's the PN-40 number?

 

Garmin numbers are here.

 

Aud

Actually ... the more important issue is not PN-40 current draw, but whether there will be a spike (such as the ... ummm ... low battery alarm) that will lock your unit up requiring you to send it in to DeLorme. See this thread for details.

 

Yes, I've gone from being an avid supporter of the PN-40 to the realization the current offering is not suitable for routine, much less serious, outdoor activities. You don't want to even get me started about the kludges required to load caches, the inability to recover consistently from a loss of signal, the inability to acquire WAAS, or the constant freezes when routing.

[+OpenTrackRacer]

Sorry, I sort of lost track of this thread.

 

The USGS maps simply show information that is usually not contained in vectorized topo maps. For one of my applications (exploring), this has proven to be invaluable. I'll give you an example... I was exploring an area in the Mojave two weekends ago. My group and I were looking for abandoned mines, mining camps, mill sites and claims. If you were to look at a vectorized topo map, even the best ones will show the roads and some of the major mine sites. The USGS maps show each shaft or portal at each mine (and random shafts that have no names). They also show ruins, mill sites and tailing piles that are completely missing from the vector topo maps. They may not be as good for contours but the nice thing is that I can quickly switch to a vector topo map if I need that information in more detail.

 

I have to say that the aerial imagery has also proven very useful for exploring. It shows roads, jeep trails and other features that are often not on any sort of map.

 

The biggest limiting factor from my point of view is that handhelds have small screens. Using Topo USA in the car with a notebook computer is a revelation. You can see huge areaa of USGS maps or aerial imagery and come away with excellent situational awareness. You can do this with the Topo USA included with the PN-40 or with the standalone software, Map Library subscription and just about any GPS.

 

With regard to the OP's latest post, some users have had problems and others have not. It's the same with any product. My personal PN-40 has worked perfectly with none of the issues stated.

 

Mike

 

The USGS quads make up for this in a big way (I like them better than vector topos but of course, you can't search)

Why do you like them better?

 

Thanks

[+embra]

If an owner of PN-40 could kindly measure actual current drawn by device in various conditions using ammeter, we could compare apples to apples. 60CSx draws 88 mA with no backlight and WAAS disabled. What’s the PN-40 number?

 

Garmin numbers are here.

According to information in the PN-40 wiki, it looks like the PN-20 draws 155mA and the PN-40 draws 200mA. That's with GPS on and backlight off; no mention of WAAS and so I suspect it is on.

 

In Power-saving mode, where WAAS is disabled and backlight off (bot other things possibly off that might be enabled in the 60CSx comparison) the PN-40 gets down to 157mA. Regardless, it's pretty clear why the battery life on the 60CSx is much better than the PN-40.