OpenTrackRacer

Huh? Why would you think I have any problem with Garmin or with Garmin wanting to sell more products or make money? You seem to be the one who doesn't understand the principals of capitalism and what motivates companies to do the things they do. For the record, I have no beef with Garmin. I've owned plenty of their products in the past and likely will own more in the future. However, I feel they are being shortsighted in this particular case. They have nothing to gain and everything to lose and they're fighting a battle with the customer that they can't win. That's a stupid way to do business. jholly, if you feel my statement is in error that you have a fundamental lack of knowledge about how and why businesses function that I have no time or interest in correcting. I've been a businessman for a long time. I understand how business works, I understand marketing and I certainly understand good customer service. I certainly believe in capitalism and the free market... they've made me a fine living.

You still don't get it do you? Garmin isn't offering the free update out of the goodness of their angelic hearts. They're doing it because customers demand it and they want to make their customers happy so they can sell more product. That's the only reason it's offered.

USGS quads aren't all that bad. It's still slow and tedious but not the end of the world. CDOQQ imagery is a whole other ballgame however. With regard to download speeds, I'd love to see 146KB/sec (like I used to). I'm seeing more like 16-22KB/sec. Sometimes a little faster, sometimes a lot slow. Lots of failed downloads too. It's a serious impediment to productive using of the device.

I used those version numbers to exaggerate the point. However, even it it was v5.3 and they came out with v5.4 two days later most people would feel the same way as the OP. Something else worth noting... you knew that Garmin updates their maps four times a year. I didn't know that until I read it here and I'm guessing the OP (and most other people) didn't know that either. I found it on the "Lifetime" map upgrade page but people looking for the free upgrade might not see that or think those upgrades were updated on the same schedule. Look, I don't think being three months out of date on maps is a big deal. However, the OP does and he has a valid point about Garmin being bullheaded for what is essentially no reason. I agree with that sentiment. If it matters to the OP it should matter to Garmin. Once again, since he can just go return the unit, Garmin's stance is foolish since it hurts them and their dealer more if he goes that route. Now they have a new customer (unless he returns it and gives up on Garmin) with a bad taste in his mouth and that's a bad way to do business.

I used GM as an example in response to: Your example makes no sense and has no parallel to the issue (ie: it's pointless). So, let's say you bought a piece of software. The EULA includes one upgrade within the first 60 days. The software in the box is v5.0 and they have v5.3 available for download as your upgrade on the web site. You get it and two days later they come out with v6.0. They knew the new version was coming but didn't tell their customers. You used your upgrade and there is nothing they can do about it, so sorry. Are you happy? Are you going to "Suck it up" and deal with it? Let's say you bought it somewhere that accepts unconditional returns. Are you going to keep the outdated software when you can return it and get the new version? If you say "yes" you're either lying or crazy. As I (and ecanderson) already said, they do indeed have to offer the upgrade to keep their customers happy. GPS receivers don't have a sticker on the box declaring the date on the maps. They could have been on the shelf for a week or six months (or longer). Customers are not going to accept buying a new GPSr with old maps so Garmin offers the upgrade. They're doing it to satisfy customer demand and increase sales so yes, they do have to do it.

Fair enough... it's now more agonizing and slower than molasses. I wish it really was a laughing matter. It's sad to see DeLORME being so shortsighted.

GM failed for a myriad of reasons, not just labor issues. It doesn't matter though... just because a company is #1 doesn't mean they're doing things correctly at the present time or that they will continue to be #1 in the future. If you want a more relevant example that may be easier for you to understand just take a look at Magellan's history. Back to the point at hand... the OP obviously feels he's been injured. If Garmin does indeed update the maps every three months then it wouldn't be a big deal to me but it is to him and he's the customer. None of that changes the fact that Garmin should publish an update schedule so their customers can be better informed so they can decide when in their 60 day window to upgrade. It would also prevent situations like this from happening in the first place. There is simply no good reason not to. There is also no good reason not to take care of the customer in a situation like this. Garmin is in business to sell things and keeping customers happy makes that happen. The OP could very will be so pissed off that instead of exchanging the unit he just returns it and moves on. Companies shouldn't be asking their customers to "Suck it up and get on with life". The OP shouldn't have to and indeed doesn't have to. That's what makes Garmin's refusal to grant a second upgrade so pointless.

Order prioritization and bandwidth limitation began in December. The selection and order number limits did begin in June (to "Improve the customer experience" of course"). Regardless, it's a major factor that potential DeLORME customers should keep in mind. Downloading useful amounts of data is now an agonizing process and slow as molasses.

Well, as they say, there's a sucker born every minute. Garmin isn't doing anyone a favor but themselves by offering the free map upgrade. They did it because customers wouldn't stand for expensive map upgrades on products they just purchased that had outdated maps. The obvious fact that it takes time from when a GPS receiver is loaded with software and maps until it's available on store shelves for purchase seems to escape you guys. I never said anyone was entitled to anything. I said that Garmin should have done the right thing and given the OP the second map upgrade. I also said the customer should do the right thing and his return the unit. Garmin has no power to enforce it's contact in this case. The customer has all the power here and Garmin should recognize that. I don't want to burst your bubble rocketsteve but Garmin has plenty to worry about with regard to market share for road navigation units. Phone and Smartphone based navigation products are a significant impediment to Garmin and Google's introduction of free turn by turn directions on Android sent their stock plummeting recently. It's likely that Google's navigation software will be coming to other platforms such as the iPhone and WebOS in the future so Garmin's problems are going to get worse, not better. GM used to be #1 in their market as well so what point are you trying to make with your statement about Garmin? Garmin ethics are questionable because they allowed customers to use their one free map upgrade without telling them that a new version of the map would be available in just a few days. It's certainly not illegal, but it's absolutely unethical. Other than that, keep chugging the Kool-Aid. You guys are a business's wet dream.

Actually, it's called misleading and poor customer service. A contract with your customer is only good as long as you have customers. What's more important? Taking care of a customer or making sure you stick to the letter of the contract? The absolute kicker is that Garmin is causing themselves considerable trouble for no reason since they have no way to enforce the contract. The customer just bought his unit and can simply go return it. Then their dealer will show additional returns, have the expense of dealing with it, and Garmin will ultimately as well. Now, if the updates come out every three months it's not a huge deal (at least to me). However, it doesn't change the fact that customers should be informed a new update is expected or of the update schedule so that they can make an informed decision. Many things can be enforced by a contract. That doesn't mean they are ethically correct. Customers know the difference and will show their preferences with their wallets.

Keep in mind that DeLORME has recently changed the way data is downloaded for the Map Library Subscription. It's still all-you-can eat but now you can only get one small fork-full at a time and only a small number per day. The data throughput has also been throttled significantly so what you can get comes down very slowly. It turns what was a usable but slow and tedious process into sheer torture.

Entitlement? Obtuse? Are you kidding? This is poor customer service from Garmin any way you cut it. The OP should have been informed that another update was coming so he could make an informed decision as to upgrade immediately or wait. That Garmin chooses not to do this is their problem, not the customer's. All Garmin is doing by not taking care of this is pissing off a customer. It's completely pointless since he can just go and return the unit and get another one, which is exactly what he should do. Companies that have black and white interpretations of their policies are not focusing on customer service. It's shortsighted and foolish. With navigation popping up on phones left and right, plus Google muscling in with free navigation, Garmin should be bending over backwards to take care of their customers, not screwing them.

Very interesting. I'll be quite curious to see the actual mechanics of how it works. While I love the capability on my PN-40 (mainly getting USGS topo maps these days), DeLORME's process to download maps and imagery is very primitive, tedious and slow.

A lot here is repetitive from the other thread but... Statistics are an interesting and easily manipulated thing even when based on solid data. Statistics based on conjecture are without merit. The vast majority of PN-40 owners do not partake in on-line forums. This is the same for most products. Of those that do, a significant percentage will access a forum to seek help with a problem or complain about an issue. People with working products don't tend to post just to say they're happy. The PN-40 has four stars out of 56 customer reviews on Amazon. That should be a good indicator as most consumers are more likely to post reviews there than on a brand or hobby specific forum. The PN-40 is not perfect. There have been issues. My first PN-40 bricked in ten minutes. I called DeLORME and they sent a new one via FedEx which I had in my hands the very next day. My replacement PN-40 has been flawless. Other people have had issues as well. There is no empirical evidence to suggest that more than a small percentage of units are affected. As I mentioned before, I personally have not had any issues with my PN-40 other than the original failure. Once I have a lock it stays locked and the battery life with good Ni-MH or the DeLORME Li-Ion battery has been fine. I use mine for caching and exploring and the USGS topo maps have been invaluable to me. No other map has the information contained in those scanned maps. That feature is worth the price of admission alone for me. Above and beyond all that, DeLORME has an unconditional 30 day money back guarantee on the PN-40. That's above and beyond the retailer's return policy (which is quite liberal at places like Amazon and REI). The PN-40 is now $244.97 at Amazon with free shipping. That's a smoking deal. Good luck with your choice!

Betaman, can you offer anything more to support your comments? The Oregon 300 that the OP is talking about only comes with a basemap and costs $100 more than the PN-40 (which comes with routable street/topo maps for the entire U.S.). It has the same receiver chipset and offers similar performance. Both do paperless geocaching. The Oregon does not support satellite/aerial maps or USGS quads at any cost while you can download an unlimited amount on the PN-40 and Topo for only $30 a year. I see a unit that wins hands down and it's not the Oregon however your criteria seems to be different.

I'm not sure if Brian's tracks are old or new. With my PN-40 and current firmware I personally have had no issues. If you're using the GPS to map trails or datalog then the 60CSx will tend to be better due to it's track settings and antenna type. The 60CSx does indeed have a top notch receiver and antenna. It's not outdated. The rest of it's capabilities with regard to maps and geocaching are indeed behind the times. You can pay to have better maps but paperless geocaching is out of reach. The only other thing I can really add is to say again that I replaced my 60CSx with a PN-40 and I'm pleased with that change.

The PN-20 is an older model with a much slower processor. I would avoid it unless the price difference between it and the PN-40 is a deal killer. With the latest release firmware (v2.5) the PN-40 is now fully paperless capable. That includes the full cache info, hints and recent logs. You can transfer caches directly into the unit from the cache page or upload Pocket Queries via Topo 8. The extra $10 for Cache Register is well worth it. It quickly transfers Pocket Queries directly from Geocaching.com (without downloading) into the PN-40. It also allows you to upload field notes and generally manage your Pocket Queries. With the latest firmware, WAAS locks are much more common for me. The accuracy of my PN-40 has been excellent. I've noticed mine isn't has good as my 60CSx indoors but I really never use it indoors so... The $30 per year Map Library Subscription is also pretty awesome. You can download unlimited satellite and aerial imagery plus USGS topo maps and NOAA charts. That was the biggest selling point on the PN-40 for me. The included Topo 8 software is also a big bonus. It allows use off all the maps and imagery on your desktop as well. I've found it to be very useful. One other thing I didn't mention was routing. The PN-40 has routable road maps included. It's nothing like a Nuvi but it does work. The DeLORME units have a 30 days money back guarantee so you're not stuck if you decide it's not right for you.

The 60Cx or 60CSx are excellent units but stale from a Geocaching perspective. Many currently available units allow paperless Geocaching and come with maps. I would take a look at the DeLORME PN-40. It's $249 now and offers paperless Geocaching and comes with maps for the U.S. and Canada in the box with nothing extra to buy. My previous unit was a 60CSx (and I had a 60CS and eTrex before that) and I'm very pleased with the PN-40. It's an amazing deal at the new price (I paid over $300) as well.

Why do these threads always turn into Ford versus Chevy or Pepsi versus Coke? I would avoid the Colorado and concentrate on the Oregon or PN-40. The Colorado would not seem to be long for this world as a current product. Out of the box, the PN-40 will do turn by turn road navigation and the Oregon will not. The PN-40 road navigation is not nearly as good as something like a Nuvi but I've personally found it serviceable the few times I've used it. Both units will do paperless Geocaching out of the box. Geocaching with the PN-40 is much nicer if you spend the $10 for Cache Register but it's not required. Entering information is much easier on the Oregon's touchscreen. Out of the box, the PN-40 has far superior maps compared to an Oregon 300 series basemap. You can download free maps for the Oregon but the quality varies depending on your location. If you were to purchase the Oregon 400t you'd have topo maps that are better then DeLORME offers plus 3D terrain and shading. Both the Oregon and the PN-40 have somewhat poor battery life. This can be improved by going with better (ie: more expensive) batteries on either unit. If useful to you, the PN-40 supports the DeLorme Map Library Subscription for around $30 a year. This allows you to download unlimited satellite and aerial imagery plus USGS topo maps and NOAA charts. I've personally found this to be very useful for exploring but not that important for Geocaching. The PN-40 also comes with Topo 8. Love it or hate it, this powerful software allows you to also have full maps on your computer with 3D views and routing. I've found this to be very useful, especially in the field where there is no Internet connection. All of the maps and imagery you download using the Map Library Subscription can be viewed in Topo on your large computer or laptop screen. The PN-40 really has no map support outside of the U.S. and Canada. If you travel around the world this could be a big problem. Looking at Amazon, the Oregon 300 is $349 with just the basemap and the PN-40 is $249 with street/topo maps for the entire US and topo maps for Canada. I personally went with the PN-40 and I have no regrets (other than the fact I paid more for mine than you can buy them for now!).

Wow, disc golf! I haven't played in 20 years! There is a course not too far away from my house at a local park.

I have a Loran C marine receiver in my garage. I can take a closer look and provide more details if you'd like.

Good price! I'd buy it but I don't know what I'd do with two of them!

Sold!

Still available! Tons of lookers but no buyers yet. How about $289 shipped?

I still have it! Lots more PM's but still no takers.