Is this still within the rules?

[+Pinfold]

Here's one for discussion. I gather there's a rule about not having to ask the staff of an establishment for clues or the cache itself should it be hidden in or around the establishment. I'm thinking of putting together a cache that involves the use of a chess set in a UK pub, a fairly ordinary thing to find in pubs along with cribbage and dominoes etc.

My question is essentially this: if the chess set or box of dominoes was kept behind the bar of a pub and somebody (cacher or not) needed to ask for them, would this be acceptable? This wouldn't make the cacher stand out or be anything untoward or unusual as pub games are invariably kept behind the bar.

 

Please discuss, all opinions considered!

 

Pinfold

[+flask]

if the tone of the place is such that the finder typically need not feel as if the object is to get him to buy anything, it can be done.

 

it's a tricky balance, but it can be done.

[Motorcycle_Mama]

Here's what the Cache Listing Requirements/Guidelines currently say.

 

The geocache is presumed to be commercial if the finder is required to go inside a business, interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, or if the cache listing has overtones of advertising, marketing, or promotion.

[+briansnat]

Here's what the Cache Listing Requirements/Guidelines currently say.

 

The geocache is presumed to be commercial if the finder is required to go inside a business, interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, or if the cache listing has overtones of advertising, marketing, or promotion.

 

There's your answer.

[+Pinfold]

 

There's your answer.

 

That's probably that then.....

 

So I suppose if the bar game was left out and 'available' and there was an understanding on both the cache page and with the publican that nothing need be purchased, that would just leave 'entering a business'. Given that where I live in the UK the village pubs are what attract most folk out here I'm sure it could pass with a fair wind if the other parts were negated? Knowing the type of folk who tend to find my caches, most of them end up in the pub anyway.

 

It's a cache that I'm dreaming up for when I get back to the UK. Hey Brian, I'm actually in your neck of the woods, I'm in Passaic county and some of your caches are on my list to do.

 

Thanks,

 

Pinfold (Phil)

[Keystone]

Regardless of whether the chess set is left out on a table or is kept behind the bar, it still is inside the business. Under the plain wording of the guidelines, your reviewer is obligated to refer you to Groundspeak for special consideration as an exception to the Commercial Caches guideline.

[AZcachemeister]

Nonetheless, such a cache could be published.

I wouldn't have a problem with it...but I'm not a reviewer!

 

The best course is to open a discussion with your local reviewer about your wises/intentions.

[+Pinfold]

Nonetheless, such a cache could be published.

I wouldn't have a problem with it...but I'm not a reviewer!

 

The best course is to open a discussion with your local reviewer about your wises/intentions.

 

Thanks for the replies, and so quick! I'll open up the discussion with the local reviewer when I get home, it's the early hours of the morning for the UK now. If the 'would I like to find this cache' rule was applied then I'm sure it would fit the bill perfectly. I had a cache outside one of the pubs last year and from what I've read in the logs most cachers went in for a pint anyway and took the cache inside to open it up and sign the log.

 

As much as I love my adopted home in NJ, I do miss the village pubs in the shires!

 

Phil

[+flask]

one of my favorite caches ever required you to go into a store and ask dick for the coordinates, which he kept under the cash register.

 

the main purpose of this was to alert dick to your presence. he had a cute little walking trail behind his store with scale-models of african wildlife. the single best reason for him to know you were there was so he could turn on the accompanying soundtrack.

 

it could have been awkward, going into the store with no intention of buying anything, but dick was just pleased you came at all, and the cache owner was able to convey this properly to the reviewer, who allowed it.

 

the guideline in general forbids caches in commercial establishments, but reviewers can make exceptions if they feel they're warranted.

 

it is important while we're on the topic of exceptions to remember that the reviewer is NEVER obliged to make exceptions and will not enjoy having caches that received exceptions waved around as supporting evidence. the fact that exceptions can be granted does not mean that anybody is entitled to have their caches so approved.

 

open an honest dialogue with the reviewer early on.

[+Pinfold]

 

it is important while we're on the topic of exceptions to remember that the reviewer is NEVER obliged to make exceptions and will not enjoy having caches that received exceptions waved around as supporting evidence. the fact that exceptions can be granted does not mean that anybody is entitled to have their caches so approved.

 

open an honest dialogue with the reviewer early on.

 

Sound advice well heeded. I was actually thinking of putting only a stage of the cache in the pub. The final cache itself would be outside. I only wanted the clue inside so that it was kept warm and dry (as well as keeping prospective cachers in a similar condition). The clue was along the lines of taking the box that contained the chess pieces and having a small circuit inside. When the box/pieces/board where arranged in a certain way the PIC circuit would operate (all done with magnets and reed switches) and flash out the cache co-ordinates.

 

...nobody pinch my idea ok?....

 

Phil

Edited February 26, 2009 by Pinfold

[+Pinfold]

oops, double post...

 

Phil

Edited February 26, 2009 by Pinfold

[+briansnat]

Hey Brian, I'm actually in your neck of the woods, I'm in Passaic county and some of your caches are on my list to do.

 

Ringwood! It's a cache utopia if you enjoy hikes and history. Get out there and explore! And drop me a line - I'd be happy to join you, or at the very least give you a very good must do list.

Edited February 26, 2009 by briansnat

[+Walts Hunting]

Actually since the last clause is and/or purchase a product it appears that it would be allowable if no purchase was required. But a little iffy.

 

Just submit it. It is possible that your reviewer won't notice or care. There is one in a bar in Yuma that requires you to go inside (and if you are unlucky get berated by the bartender for not buying something) , one in Algadones, Mexico (just outside of Yuma) that you have to ask the hostess for (no purchase required) and one in a bookstore in Nanamio on Vancover Island. While I am sure that most reviewers are diligent and attentive to the rules I have run into more caches than I should that clearly violate the guidelines.

 

Oh, and don't forget the one in Yuma submitted after webcam's were banned which is listed as a traditional but when you get there and read the description you find that an ALR is to submit a photo taken with the webcam.

 

That is a short list of some of the ones that I have found that clearly violate guidelines but guidelines ase subject to individual interpertation.

 

GC numbers not submitted on purpose. My approach to those is just log and run and not worry about it. No reason to play Cache Police.

[+sbell111]

Actually since the last clause is and/or purchase a product it appears that it would be allowable if no purchase was required. But a little iffy.

Ummm, the 'or' in that clause means that you are wrong.

 

Just submit it. It is possible that your reviewer won't notice or care. There is one in a bar in Yuma that requires you to go inside (and if you are unlucky get berated by the bartender for not buying something) , one in Algadones, Mexico (just outside of Yuma) that you have to ask the hostess for (no purchase required) and one in a bookstore in Nanamio on Vancover Island. While I am sure that most reviewers are diligent and attentive to the rules I have run into more caches than I should that clearly violate the guidelines.

It's quite possible that those caches either preceded the current guideline (or it's interpretation) or received approval from TPTB. Either way, I believe it to be bad advice to 'just submit' a cache for review that is clearly in violation of the guidelines.

 

If the reviewer does not catch it, it will be brought to his attention down the road. The very existance of this thread guarantees that. He will then archive the cache and take careful review of the OP's future cache submittals. If he does catch it, he will deny it and still take careful review of future submittals. It's 'no win' for the OP.

[+Stargazer22]

Actually since the last clause is and/or purchase a product it appears that it would be allowable if no purchase was required. But a little iffy.

Ummm, the 'or' in that clause means that you are wrong.

 

Just submit it. It is possible that your reviewer won't notice or care. There is one in a bar in Yuma that requires you to go inside (and if you are unlucky get berated by the bartender for not buying something) , one in Algadones, Mexico (just outside of Yuma) that you have to ask the hostess for (no purchase required) and one in a bookstore in Nanamio on Vancover Island. While I am sure that most reviewers are diligent and attentive to the rules I have run into more caches than I should that clearly violate the guidelines.

It's quite possible that those caches either preceded the current guideline (or it's interpretation) or received approval from TPTB. Either way, I believe it to be bad advice to 'just submit' a cache for review that is clearly in violation of the guidelines.

 

If the reviewer does not catch it, it will be brought to his attention down the road. The very existance of this thread guarantees that. He will then archive the cache and take careful review of the OP's future cache submittals. If he does catch it, he will deny it and still take careful review of future submittals. It's 'no win' for the OP.

 

I agree with Sbell111 on this one.

I think it's bad advice to suggest submitting a cache that's in violation of the guidelines to see if it will get past a reviewer. I think even the OP knows this, as he went to the trouble to ask first.

 

It's not nice to fool a reviewer. (Remember the old Parkay commercials? "It's not nice to fool mother nature!", followed by a lightning bolt)

You don't want a reviewer lightning bolt to hit you. Those things hurt more than an admin brick!

[+JamGuys]

Here in central Oklahoma, two of our more visited caches are in travel centers (visitor centres for you folks across the pond) and you have to ask for the containers at the front desk. These travel centers both have small gift shops inside so I guess they would have to be considered business establishments as well. For many cachers who are more accustomed to operating in stealth mode, walking up to the counter and asking for the cache is in itself a very unique experience!

 

 

 

 

Edited to remove incriminating links!

Edited February 27, 2009 by JamGuys

[+sbell111]

I'm thinking that those in favor of these kinds of caches are doing themselves a disservice by pointing out any the slipped by. Believe it or not, reviewers actually read the forums sometimes and they may take action on those caches that 'slipped through'.

[+StaticTank]

There is one in the Mall of America, in Minnesota, like this. It was fun. No purchase necessary. I only had to ask the lady behind the counter for it. She smiled, gave it to me, and then proceeded to talk on the phone in another language. She didn’t even care that I was in the store.

 

StaticTank

[+Bear and Ragged]

I'm thinking of putting together a cache that involves the use of a chess set in a UK pub, a fairly ordinary thing to find in pubs along with cribbage and dominoes etc.

 

Most pubs, you are expected to buy something. Drink or food, not just sit there playing games...

[+JamGuys]

Here's what the Cache Listing Requirements/Guidelines currently say.

 

The geocache is presumed to be commercial if the finder is required to go inside a business, interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, or if the cache listing has overtones of advertising, marketing, or promotion.

Actually, a closer look at the wording of the guideline does seem to give a bit of leeway, i.e.

 

"The geocache is presumed to be commercial if the finder is required to go inside a business, interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, or if the cache listing has overtones of advertising, marketing, or promotion."

 

If there is no obligation to purchase a product or service, and assuming the cache listing has no "overtones of advertising, marketing, or promotion", then it seems to me that such a cache IS acceptable under the guidelines. But then again, I am no legal scholar .....

[+sbell111]

[+WRITE SHOP ROBERT]

Here's what the Cache Listing Requirements/Guidelines currently say.

 

The geocache is presumed to be commercial if the finder is required to go inside a business, interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, or if the cache listing has overtones of advertising, marketing, or promotion.

Actually, a closer look at the wording of the guideline does seem to give a bit of leeway, i.e.

 

"The geocache is presumed to be commercial if the finder is required to go inside a business, interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, or if the cache listing has overtones of advertising, marketing, or promotion."

 

If there is no obligation to purchase a product or service, and assuming the cache listing has no "overtones of advertising, marketing, or promotion", then it seems to me that such a cache IS acceptable under the guidelines. But then again, I am no legal scholar .....

I'm not an english major, but I think one way too interprit that is to replace each comma with the "and/or"

 

"The geocache is presumed to be commercial if the finder is required to go inside a business and/or interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, or if the cache listing has overtones of advertising, marketing, or promotion."

[+JamGuys]

I'm not an english major, but I think one way too interprit that is to replace each comma with the "and/or"

 

"The geocache is presumed to be commercial if the finder is required to go inside a business and/or interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, or if the cache listing has overtones of advertising, marketing, or promotion."

You know, your interpretation is probably the right one but I guess one can argue that the guideline written this way is somewhat ambiguous, especially to those of us who are neither English majors nor legal scholars.

[+sbell111]

I'm not an english major, but I think one way too interprit that is to replace each comma with the "and/or"

 

"The geocache is presumed to be commercial if the finder is required to go inside a business and/or interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, or if the cache listing has overtones of advertising, marketing, or promotion."

You know, your interpretation is probably the right one but I guess one can argue that the guideline written this way is somewhat ambiguous, especially to those of us who are neither English majors nor legal scholars.

You can argue whatever you want, but I think the reviewers all know what it means.

[+Rockin Roddy]

I'm not an english major, but I think one way too interprit that is to replace each comma with the "and/or"

 

"The geocache is presumed to be commercial if the finder is required to go inside a business and/or interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, or if the cache listing has overtones of advertising, marketing, or promotion."

You know, your interpretation is probably the right one but I guess one can argue that the guideline written this way is somewhat ambiguous, especially to those of us who are neither English majors nor legal scholars.

You can argue whatever you want, but I think the reviewers all know what it means.

 

I think most of us do, even if we'd rather pretend we didn't!

[JustWannaCache]

YOu must remember in this activity, there are no rules. Only guidelines.

[+blb9556]

Here's what the Cache Listing Requirements/Guidelines currently say.

 

The geocache is presumed to be commercial if the finder is required to go inside a business, interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, or if the cache listing has overtones of advertising, marketing, or promotion.

 

When was that rule added? Because this archived cache would have violated it, if the rule was made then.

[Motorcycle_Mama]

The rule was clarified sometime in the last year or so.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Here's what the Cache Listing Requirements/Guidelines currently say.

 

The geocache is presumed to be commercial if the finder is required to go inside a business, interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, or if the cache listing has overtones of advertising, marketing, or promotion.

 

When was that rule added? Because this archived cache would have violated it, if the rule was made then.

 

See the flask post above where she writes about not using examples which appear to violate the guidelines. It's not going to influence a reviewer into approving a cache which doesn't meet the guideslines but may cause a currently enabled cache to become archived.

[Keystone]

When was that rule added? Because this archived cache would have violated it, if the rule was made then.

Stuff you could list in 2002 wouldn't be listed in 2003, by which time the Commercial Caches guideline was in full force. From the first version of the listing guidelines as captured in the Internet Wayback Machine, dated November 2003:

 

Commercial caches attempt to use the Geocaching.com web site cache reporting tool directly or indirectly (intentionally or non-intentionally) to solicit customers through a Geocaching.com listing. These are NOT permitted. Examples include for-profit locations that require an entrance fee, or locations that sell products or services.

 

By the February 2007 version of the Guidelines, the language about not entering the business had been added, in order to clarify the standards being applied by reviewers:

 

Commercial caches attempt to use the Geocaching.com web site cache reporting tool directly or indirectly (intentionally or non-intentionally) to solicit customers through a Geocaching.com listing. These are NOT permitted. Examples include for-profit locations that require an entrance fee, or locations that sell products or services. If the finder is required to go inside the business, interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, then the cache is presumed to be commercial.

 

So, the 2002 cache was fine when published, unlike the example asked about by the OP of this thread. When someone left a "Needs Archived" log on the "Day Trader's Cache" in 2005, I was happy to see it go. The absent owner, however, resurfaced the next day and resubmitted the cache. Here's part of my archive log, also from 2005:

 

Tthis cache cannot be listed because it is inside a commercial place of business, in violation of the section of the listing guidelines entitled "Commercial Caches / Caches that Solicit." Once a cache is archived, it must meet the site's current listing standards in order to be unarchived, and this cache does not.

 

Therefore, I am not willing to re-establish this cache. If you wish to appeal this decision, please send an e-mail to appeals@ geocaching.com with a link to this cache page.

 

Keystone

Geocaching.com Volunteer Cache Reviewer

And now you know "the REST of the story."

[+Pinfold]

I think I'll discuss this with the UK reviewer when I get home. I've no wish to pore over the minutia of the wording, it's a working guide and not legal speak.

 

I want this to be a nice hide that cachers will want to find and enjoy doing so. The experience of the find and the protection of the finder's interests is what is important. As long as there is an understanding both with the pub owner and on the cache listing that no purchase is required, I don't feel it could offend anyone.

The entering of a business is also open to discretion. If a cache was placed in a factory or a wholesale trade outlet, you'd feel very unnerved going in there cold -and rightly so. However, the term 'business' can mean a lot of things, a farm for instance is a business yet thousands of caches are placed on farmland and around farm buildings without incident. I think the notion of previous caches not setting precedents is a good one. Each cache should be reviewed on its individual merits.

I'm a UK citizen enjoying a work placement in the US (and enjoying every minute!). This would be a cache clue placed in an English country pub, a very different establishment to the bars that so 'infrequently' frequent the US. The village pub is more than just a business, it's a meeting place and it's the closest thing to a public place that isn't publicly owned. In our village pubs we hold village meetings, the 200 club, British Legion, Parish Council meetings, Scout Leader meetings, Church Council as well as a host of sports meetings etc. It's the normal thing to do. The pubs and the publicans are part of the village and we have a pub culture. Pub games abound in these places, some in the West Midlands and Wales even do 6 yard bell target air rifle shooting!

 

It would be a clever cache clue and most folk would enjoy sitting in the comfort of the pub working it out. The pub would also protect the cache clue from the elements and it would be a real bonus to have a clue that was handled on a daily basis by muggles who are none the wiser and yet yield a blatent clue to a cacher.

This may not be a suitable cache clue for a bar in NJ, but in the context of an English country pub and with the appropriate provisos and permissions, I think a UK reviewer would probably use due discretion and give this the nod.

 

Phil

Edited February 28, 2009 by Pinfold

[Keystone]

I'd love to hide a cache in a favorite Sports Bar, but I know I cannot.

 

The same listing guidelines apply worldwide.

 

The guidelines were clarified to spell out the specific instances where caches are PRESUMED commercial, and thus CANNOT be published, meaning the reviewer does not have any discretion except to refer the matter to Groundspeak. These situations are:

 

Having to enter the business

Having to purchase something

Having to interact with employees

 

If there is anything unclear, please do not hesitate to ask.

[+Panda Inc]

There is a Travel Bug stop in Santa Fe, NM inside a map store. You walk in, ask to see the TB's and the staff knows what you are talking about. They retrieve a small cardboard box, put it on the counter and tend to business while you make discoveries, trades, etc. I have to admit to feeling a little weird doing this but they do not bug you or try to sell you anything. They don't have to, it's a cool shop.

 

Nonetheless, such a cache could be published.

I wouldn't have a problem with it...but I'm not a reviewer!

 

The best course is to open a discussion with your local reviewer about your wises/intentions.

[+jeffbouldin]

How does this effect historic sites? I have a multi-cache that I've been working with a local historical land manager to place. It will be a multi that requires you to visit all of the information kiosks to figure out the coords. The land manager will not allow the container to be hidden on the grounds and wants it kept inside. You will not have to pay to enter, nor buy anything from the gift shop. But you will have to ask for it. This is not a for-profit location.

[Keystone]

Jeff, that sounds fine. There are plenty of caches inside museums, libraries, historic buildings, etc. The key is that they're non-profit. In fact, I suggested the exact same cache design in a forum post earlier in the month as a possible solution for National Park Service properties.