DNF :Log or call

[kody2]

Hi All,

Just a quick question, Do you log a DNF or do you call someone , a friend you know found it or the ower if you know them ? You see awhile back I was looking at a cashe. It was dissabled because to owner got to many calls from "experienced cachers" not one DNF was posted . Is this unethical or just plan lazy. Just to let you know I don't post DNFs unless I've tried several times or it's obvious theres a problem with the cashe.

[+KoosKoos]

Hi All,

Just a quick question, Do you log a DNF or do you call someone , a friend you know found it or the ower if you know them ? You see awhile back I was looking at a cashe. It was dissabled because to owner got to many calls from "experienced cachers" not one DNF was posted . Is this unethical or just plan lazy. Just to let you know I don't post DNFs unless I've tried several times or it's obvious theres a problem with the cashe.

 

If I put in an honest search, I log a DNF each time. If I spent 5 minutes looking for the cache and decided to leave for whatever reason, I may log a note or a DNF or may just drop it. There have been times I've called a cache owner for a pointer, but that's pretty rare.

 

The main purpose (to me anyway) of a DNF is to let the cache owner and potential seekers that you couldn't find the cache. That might mean the cache is missing or it might mean that it was just too tough for you to find.

 

Since the owner disabled the cache after several people called him/her, I don't see any difference in what would have been accomplished if they'd seen several DNFs and disabled it.

 

Owners are taking the right step in disabling a cache if there "may" be problems because that might keep other people from wasting time going after a cache that could be gone. If there really aren't any problems, the owner can verify that on their next visit or if someone finds it while it's disabled, they can point out that things are fine.

 

I don't see any issues with what the owner or other seekers did and would suggest you log more of your DNFs...they're valid feedback even if there isn't something "obviously" wrong.

[+wkmccall]

Hi All,

Just a quick question, Do you log a DNF or do you call someone , a friend you know found it or the ower if you know them ? You see awhile back I was looking at a cashe. It was dissabled because to owner got to many calls from "experienced cachers" not one DNF was posted . Is this unethical or just plan lazy. Just to let you know I don't post DNFs unless I've tried several times or it's obvious theres a problem with the cashe.

 

If I actually do a good search (and not just a drive-by with little effort); I'll log a DNF and since I do not cache with anyone or know anyone to call; the answer is No on that one..

[+The Leprechauns]

I log a DNF when I search for a cache, but don't sign the logbook. Getting out of the car with my GPS in hand constitutes "searching." Driving past a cache at a location I don't feel like stopping at doesn't constitute "searching."

 

With few exceptions, I don't call other geocachers for hints. I prefer the sense of accomplishment I gain by finding the cache on my own.

 

Those are my ethics. I don't attempt to impose them on others, and I don't much care what ethics others choose to follow, so long as they don't affect me.

 

It can be argued that failing to log a DNF *does* affect other geocachers, because the owner doesn't have the needed evidence that people are searching and failing. As an owner I would react to five straight DNF's over six weekends. But if only two of them were logged, I wouldn't check the cache.

[Neos2]

As a cache owner, I like people to find my caches--but if they don't for some reasons, I'd like them to log their DNF.

 

It's extra helpful when the cache is new. Judging the difficulty rating is probably the most subjective part of making a new cache. You know where the cache is and how it's hidden, but you have to guess how difficult that will be for someone else. A lot of people decide roughly how much time to invest in a hunt by the difficulty rating. If I get lots of DNFs, I can be pretty sure I underrated the cache and need to raise the difficulty level. It's not unusual to see cache owners raise or lower the difficulty rating a bit on a cache after getting feedback from ten or so locals.

 

On the other hand, if a cache that has had lots of finders suddenly begins to get a string of DNFs, that alerts me there may be a problem that needs my attention. The more faithfully people log their DNFs, the easier this is to judge.

 

As a cacher seeker, I log my DNFs. I even log multiple DNFs on repeat trips to the same cache every time I have new and useful information to provide.

[+joranda]

I have no problems logging my DNFs. It helps the cache owner to mantain there caches. If it's a easy cache and you get a DNF on it then 9 out of 10 times it probably has been muggled or I was just blind.

[kody2]

I didn't ask the right question. It should have been Do you call someone and if so when? I see in more and more logs the call word , two years ago I never read it logs . Maybe I'm worried the use of lifelines will just make the diff rating of a cashe useless.

[+Rockin Roddy]

I didn't ask the right question. It should have been Do you call someone and if so when? I see in more and more logs the call word , two years ago I never read it logs . Maybe I'm worried the use of lifelines will just make the diff rating of a cashe useless.

 

Since I actually want my caches found, I see no harm in having the searchers make a call if needed! I'd rather they ask me personally, but it's not going to cause me to lose sleep!

[+wkmccall]

I didn't ask the right question. It should have been Do you call someone and if so when? I see in more and more logs the call word , two years ago I never read it logs . Maybe I'm worried the use of lifelines will just make the diff rating of a cashe useless.

 

It doesn't bother me if someone calls for help on one of my caches, if that's what they feel they need to find the cache, no problem..

[+deb3day]

There are several cachers in my area that will PAF (phone a friend) and I have a few that I've given my cell number to so that they can call me if they want to. I have 2 cachers logged into my cell phone, but I haven't used the PAF yet. I have on occasion emailed someone when I got home and asked if they could give me a hint. I've had some emails like that sent to me as well. Sometimes when you log a DNF the CO will send you a hint. I have had that happen a few times.

[+flask]

sometimes when i get to a cache site i find an obstacle there i'd rather not deal with. i don't like searching brushpiles, and when i'm alone i prefer nto to have to climb a tree or wedge myself into small crevices unless i have to.

 

most of the time my call to a friend is just about that: "do i have to search that brushpile?" if the tricky part of your cache is that you have tossed a container into a large rockpile or large brushpile, quite frankly i'm not impressed with it and would just as well get it over with in as short an amount of time as possible.

 

i will also make that call if i have serious doubts as to the "there-ness" of the cache. as in "if it's supposed to be in that stup, it's not there" sometimes i'm told that the cache in fact should be in that stump, and the cache owner then knows for sure that he should come take care of it, and sometimes i get told that it's not in that stup and i should keep looking. this second type of response is usually punctuated by laughter.

 

recently i called a friend to ask if the cache was in a guardrail. the reason for this was that there was a HUGE pile of snow that i believed may have been covering a guardrail and for a variety of reasons that would have been a likely place for the cache. i had a shovel and was willing to dig, but a quick phone call informed me that there wasn't a guardrail at all and that i should look elsewhere.

 

sometimes when i make the call i ask the friend on the other end to please read me the description again, as well as any pertinent logs i might have missed.

 

as for the ethics of looking at hints the first time you visit a cache, i used to be of a mind that if i drove four hours and hiked two to look for a cache and couldn't find it, i'd go home and look again with the hints on another day.

 

and then i thought: why?

 

if i have searched long enough to decide to look at the hints, what's the point of spending an additional ten hours in transit? it's still the same cache, in the same place. i have still searched diligently and come up empty.

 

if i DO resort to hints, it isn't any less of a hint if i use it on the first trip or the second. i'm still using the hint.

 

the bottom line is that you have to play the game in a way that is pleasing to you.

 

for me, over time i have acquired some flexibility. in general, the cheaper and lazier the hide, the lazier i am about hunting it. roadside film canister at ten below zero at one in the morning? i look at the hints before i even get out of the car.

 

what concerns me is this, though: usually when someone starts a thread about the "ethics" of using hints, what they are really doing is attempting to place somebody else's practice in poor standing. it is usually an attempt to occupy the moral high ground and in some way hold oneself to be superior to other players.

 

here's the thing: geocaching is played with the same pieces on the same field by people playing under different sets of rules. it is non-competitive except among those who manage to place themselves in competition because they prefer it that way.

 

if you are one of those who chooses to compete against others, you may be frustrated by a general failure of all the players to play by the same rules.

 

tough.

 

all i need to enjoy this game is something to search for, and sometimes some friends to search with. it pleases me to make a diligent search, and it pleases me to find a cache.

 

only i know what constitutes for me a diligent search.

 

as for your worry about difficulty rating, i consider them to be a way to inform the finder what to expect. the only reason you would be worried about the integrity of the difficulty rating is if for some reason you're keeping score.

 

if a cache near me is rated 5 because of needing a boat, i simply wait until the ice is thick enough for me to walk or drive there. by your accounting, i am making the difficulty rating of that cache useless.

 

because i am not in competition with you or anyone else, i don't give two hoots in a handbasket if you use hints on the first visit or if you call for help

 

you should try it; it's marvelously liberating.

[Neos2]

I didn't ask the right question. It should have been Do you call someone and if so when? I see in more and more logs the call word , two years ago I never read it logs . Maybe I'm worried the use of lifelines will just make the diff rating of a cashe useless.

I don't call the cache owner for every little cache I can't find- but I have two pals that I *might* call if I go to their cache and it's supposed to be pretty easy and it's pretty obvious the only place the cache could have been was in "Z" spot and I don't find anything in a reasonable area around there...

 

I usually say something like "Hey. I'm at your such-and-such cache. The gps says it's in the "Z" and I looked there and all around but can't find it." At that point, it's all up to them if they want to tell me I'm looking in the wrong spot or I just haven't looked well enough yet, or that someone else told them it was missing last week and would I please put out a replacement until they can get there, or whatever.

 

The Phone-A-Friend option *might* cause some problems if cachers call their buddies who have done the cache (not the cache owner) for hints and don't say anything in the logs. How would the owner know there might be a rating problem?

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

Hi All,

Just a quick question, Do you log a DNF or do you call someone , a friend you know found it or the ower if you know them ? You see awhile back I was looking at a cashe. It was dissabled because to owner got to many calls from "experienced cachers" not one DNF was posted . Is this unethical or just plan lazy. Just to let you know I don't post DNFs unless I've tried several times or it's obvious theres a problem with the cashe.

The phenomenon to which you are referring is often known as "phone a friend", aka PAF. Much as I have related in earlier posts on this topic, I have done PAF only once, while sitting soaking wet on a rocky and wind-swept island in the middle of a raging and cold river, seeking a cache that was quite obviously at least 180 feet off from the published coordinates. However, even though I have done this only once, speaking here as a cache owner, I do not mind the PAF phenomenon, and, in fact, Sue and I receive quite a few PAF calls here, both from people who are geo-friends and from geocachers who are total strangers to us (our contact info is available to "'insiders" via a private contact thread posted on the local MGS forum.)

 

On the other hand, I tend to prefer to see PAF calls where folks just give a hint or two. I do not really like the PAF calls where folks expect to be told exactly where the cache is, but again, I do not get all worked up about that latter type of call.

[+Paganmen]

Sometimes I log DNF's and sometimes I don't. If there are too many muggles around or other factors that prevent a thorough search then I won't log it. If I really search and can't find it then I will log a DNF. It is important for cache owners to know if several people haven't found it recently. They can then decide to do a maintenance check on the cache. Perhaps they need to add another clue or change the description on the cache page.

Remember, logging a DNF is not the same as receiving an "F" and you can go back at another time to look for it.

[+TrailGators]

Hi All,

Just a quick question, Do you log a DNF or do you call someone , a friend you know found it or the ower if you know them ? You see awhile back I was looking at a cashe. It was dissabled because to owner got to many calls from "experienced cachers" not one DNF was posted . Is this unethical or just plan lazy. Just to let you know I don't post DNFs unless I've tried several times or it's obvious theres a problem with the cashe.

The phenomenon to which you are referring is often known as "phone a friend", aka PAF. Much as I have related in earlier posts on this topic, I have done PAF only once, while sitting soaking wet on a rocky and wind-swept island in the middle of a raging and cold river, seeking a cache that was quite obviously at least 180 feet off from the published coordinates. However, even though I have done this only once, speaking here as a cache owner, I do not mind the PAF phenomenon, and, in fact, Sue and I receive quite a few PAF calls here, both from people who are geo-friends and from geocachers who are total strangers to us (our contact info is available to "'insiders" via a private contact thread posted on the local MGS forum.)

 

On the other hand, I tend to prefer to see PAF calls where folks just give a hint or two. I do not really like the PAF calls where folks expect to be told exactly where the cache is, but again, I do not get all worked up about that latter type of call.

PAF is common around here. I don't have a problem with it. If an owner perfers that people do not so that he/she can say so on the cache page.

[+tozainamboku]

I didn't ask the right question. It should have been Do you call someone and if so when? I see in more and more logs the call word , two years ago I never read it logs . Maybe I'm worried the use of lifelines will just make the diff rating of a cashe useless.

Thanks for the clarification. I found the initial post confusing. It sound like a cache owner who wants to see DNFs and disabled a cache because too many people were asking for help before logging a DNF. I think this is a bit extreme reaction. Particularly on a puzzle cache, someone may be looking for help on the puzzle and hasn't even gone to look for the cache so they aren't going to log a DNF. This idea of of no help until you log a DNF first seems like a hider with a problem. It also leads to the undesired effect for someone like me. I tend to always log a DNF. If this is a particularly clever hide, I want to see if I can find it without any additional hints. On several cases I failed to mentioned this in my DNF log and either the cache owner or someone who found it before and had the cache on their watchlist, has emailed me with a spoiler. DNF logs should have nothing to do with asking for or getting a hint. If you want to phone a friend or ask the cache owner for help you should do it whether or not you log a DNF. Whether the cache owner or the PAF gives you any help is up to them.

[+StarBrand]

I have never called a PAF network or the cache owner. I just don't see that as how this is supposed to work. I won't tell another cacher how to find another owner's cache. I log my DNF because I searched and Did Not Find the cache - each and every time I try. Sometimes after a few attempts the owner will offer some help and i'm glad to take it but I don't call.

[+StarBrand]

[...

If an owner perfers that people do not so that he/she can say so on the cache page.

...or you can just assume that as I shouldn't have to ask.

[Clan Riffster]

In this day and age, I figure there's lots more important things to get my knickers wadded up over. I've never been an uptight person, and this mindset has established itself in this game, as well as other aspects of my life. If someone calls via via the PAF network, the first thing I establish is how much help they want. I'll give them a nudge or a spoiler, if they want. Heck, the other day I E-mailed someone the final coords to one of my puzzles, simply because that's what the cacher wanted. No worries. Regardless of what strictures you apply to yourself, it's still a game. As the oft revered Snoogans once opined, "If you ain't havin' fun, you're doin' something wrong".

[ao318]

When I have worked on a hard puzzle with the help of a cache owner, they have offered their number for when I visit the cache to help figure out how to open it. I used it once but the owner was busy and I was able to figure out how to open the cache on my own.

 

I have had friends call me about caches I had found previously to verify if they are looking in the same area where I found it but I will not tell them where it is.

 

I also log DNF's on any cache that I had tried to search for whether it be 5 minutes or longer. I leave notes if I was unable to search due to obstructions, like a new fence put around an area for construction, or to much muggle activity. Since I didn't actually start to search I do not consider it a DNF.

[+Y2KOTA]

I'll post a DNF when I give up on a cache. Meaning I make come back a few times before I give up on a cache. Also I'll DNF if I'm positive the cache is misssing and I gave a dam good hunt.

[+Rockin Roddy]

In this day and age, I figure there's lots more important things to get my knickers wadded up over. I've never been an uptight person, and this mindset has established itself in this game, as well as other aspects of my life. If someone calls via via the PAF network, the first thing I establish is how much help they want. I'll give them a nudge or a spoiler, if they want. Heck, the other day I E-mailed someone the final coords to one of my puzzles, simply because that's what the cacher wanted. No worries. Regardless of what strictures you apply to yourself, it's still a game. As the oft revered Snoogans once opined, "If you ain't havin' fun, you're doin' something wrong".

 

Yep, sounds about right. I think we're more alike than our opinions let on!

[+Walkworthy & Wife]

When caching alone and I can't find a cache, most of the time I do not log a DNF. I will go back another day and try again. If I am caching with someone and the two of us can't find the cache I WILL log a DNF. When downloading caches to my GPSr I always check the latest logs. If they are DNFs I will add my DNF log to alert the CO that they might need to go and check the cache. There are no rules written in stone about posting DNFs. It is up to the individual. Do what you think is right for the situation.

[+J-Way]

About the only time I'll PAF is when I'm completely stumped on a cache where I know I won't be able to try again for a long time, if ever. Like when going after a 5/5 cache in a friend's boat that he's trying to sell or when going for a difficult multi/puzzle when on vacation.

 

Otherwise I just log the DNF and try again later, or ignore it, or beg the owner for a hint via email.

 

Some cachers automatically hit the PAF stage if the cache doesn't fall into their hands within 5 mins of searching. Not the way I cache, but nothing "unethical" about it.

 

Always log your DNFs.

[+Too Tall John]

About the only time I'll PAF is when I'm completely stumped on a cache where I know I won't be able to try again for a long time, if ever.

I'm pretty close to this position. For me, it is really more about the fact that I hate talking on the phone...