Shock Danger of Electrified Objects (Lampposts, etc.) Revisited

2.7k · December 22, 2008

Firespinner mentioned coming across a "green box" (pad mount transformer) that appeared to be pried open at some point,this doesn't surprise me.What does surprise me is that someone hunting for a cache lacks the common sense to leave a clearly locked electrical box alone!

I mean c'mon....forcing your way into an electrical panel?......sounds like natural selection at work to me...lmao!

I don't see a problem with electrical hides. Anything that is real is also designed to be tamper resistant (needing tools,knowledge,or force to gain entry to energized equipment) If you have enough knowledge to gain entry you know to leave it alone! If you have any brains at all you know not to force your way into anything electrical with a screw driver!

OK, let's take that common sense thing a bit in the other direction, because I've actually seen boxes needing equipment in order for you to get the cache (yep, some sensible cache hider decided they needed to make the fake box look real by closing it up all professional-like)...tamper-resistant?? Not likely! These are a bad hide regardless of how sneaky some hider thinks they are, and hiding behind the "common sense" argument doesn't mean a thing...when a cacher (no matter how intelligent they are) ends up electrocuted, a big black eye for our fun will follow as well as possible headaches for GS and for the cache hider!

Go ahead and test that "common sense" theory all you want, just remember that there are a lot of cachers who use less than common sense out there (hey, you pointed that out already)!

Sounds like the hider that you're talking about lacks common sense but I stick to not hide behind my common sense theory. Whether your hiding/hunting caches or walking across the street it takes common sense to do either successfully. My best advise to all of you nay sayers is DON'T HUNT 'EM IF YA DON'T LIKE 'EM!

On a side note,why do many posters here seem so hateful and condescending towards others? I've only been here about two weeks and it's already rubbing off on me. I think maybe I'll just start trolling before I hurt someones feelings.

I have fun on the other forums I visit, this one is a CONSTANT pissing contest...later people.

I can't cross in the middle of the street in my town without the chance of getting a ticket. Why is this? How many people do you know that got hurt not crossing at a crosswalk? Cross only at a crosswalk. Sounds like common sense doesn't it? Besides how many people do you really hear about in the news or read in the people that get hit by cars when not cross in a crosswalk? But still most cities will issue tickets for doing so. What it comes down to is that we can either self police or, after a bad enough accident, we have our caches policed by others (possibly non-cacher).

20.7k · December 22, 2008

I agree 100%...but not all of us use this same common sense, that's the problem! NOT hiding in or around these dangers would make a safer caching environment IMHO. We have people out there that'll actually use a real box with real equipment which isn't hooked up to power...this creates the appearance of it being real.

Life has danger. It is up to each of us to determine which dangers to undertake.

If we were to implement your logic, we would have to disallow all caches everywhere because each of them involves some amount of danger. "NOT hiding in or around these dangers would make a safer caching environment".

20.7k · December 22, 2008

Firespinner mentioned coming across a "green box" (pad mount transformer) that appeared to be pried open at some point,this doesn't surprise me.What does surprise me is that someone hunting for a cache lacks the common sense to leave a clearly locked electrical box alone!

I mean c'mon....forcing your way into an electrical panel?......sounds like natural selection at work to me...lmao!

I don't see a problem with electrical hides. Anything that is real is also designed to be tamper resistant (needing tools,knowledge,or force to gain entry to energized equipment) If you have enough knowledge to gain entry you know to leave it alone! If you have any brains at all you know not to force your way into anything electrical with a screw driver!

OK, let's take that common sense thing a bit in the other direction, because I've actually seen boxes needing equipment in order for you to get the cache (yep, some sensible cache hider decided they needed to make the fake box look real by closing it up all professional-like)...tamper-resistant?? Not likely! These are a bad hide regardless of how sneaky some hider thinks they are, and hiding behind the "common sense" argument doesn't mean a thing...when a cacher (no matter how intelligent they are) ends up electrocuted, a big black eye for our fun will follow as well as possible headaches for GS and for the cache hider!

Go ahead and test that "common sense" theory all you want, just remember that there are a lot of cachers who use less than common sense out there (hey, you pointed that out already)!

Sounds like the hider that you're talking about lacks common sense but I stick to not hide behind my common sense theory. Whether your hiding/hunting caches or walking across the street it takes common sense to do either successfully. My best advise to all of you nay sayers is DON'T HUNT 'EM IF YA DON'T LIKE 'EM!

On a side note,why do many posters here seem so hateful and condescending towards others? I've only been here about two weeks and it's already rubbing off on me. I think maybe I'll just start trolling before I hurt someones feelings.

I have fun on the other forums I visit, this one is a CONSTANT pissing contest...later people.

I can't cross in the middle of the street in my town without the chance of getting a ticket. Why is this? How many people do you know that got hurt not crossing at a crosswalk? Cross only at a crosswalk. Sounds like common sense doesn't it? Besides how many people do you really hear about in the news or read in the people that get hit by cars when not cross in a crosswalk? But still most cities will issue tickets for doing so. What it comes down to is that we can either self police or, after a bad enough accident, we have our caches policed by others (possibly non-cacher).

The reason that you have to cross at the crosswalk is to avoid getting hit by a car when you step out from between two parked vehicles. The law isn't to protect you. It is to protect the innocent person driving the vehicle from having an accident due to your negligence.

This is different than your deciding to take on the tiny amount of danger that exists in finding an LPC because in finding an LPC you are accepting all the danger, not passing some on to another person.

20.7k · December 22, 2008

It should be noted that the chance of being electrocuted while logging an LPC is actually much less than if you touched a random pole in the same lot, since the LPC's pole has been 'tested' recently (when the previous finder logged the cache or it was hidden). Therefore, your chance of being electrocuted is actually much less than the 1:10,000,000 preiously discussed.

8.9k · December 22, 2008

I agree 100%...but not all of us use this same common sense, that's the problem! NOT hiding in or around these dangers would make a safer caching environment IMHO. We have people out there that'll actually use a real box with real equipment which isn't hooked up to power...this creates the appearance of it being real.
Life has danger. It is up to each of us to determine which dangers to undertake.

If we were to implement your logic, we would have to disallow all caches everywhere because each of them involves some amount of danger. "NOT hiding in or around these dangers would make a safer caching environment".

You're right sbell...while we're at it, maybe we should just stop people from walking or eating or anything else because there's danger in everything. Logical! Obviously, life is full of dangers, that's why we're TRAINED to be respectful of, and careful around life's dangers from the time we're born. When dangers are ignored by cache placers which train cachers to take risks they'd normally (and rightly so) not, then there's a problem! I am of the belief that NO cacher in their right mind would look in an electric box had it not been for some careless cacher making one a cache! Then, those with lesser intelligence are in trouble and I choose not to be the one who finds the less intelligent with one of my caches! But hey, have at it, my friend! Tell me how that works for you! <_<

When going after a dangerous cache, there's attributes, diff/terrain ratings AND you can usually easily see the dangers at hand. Hiding a cache in an electric box, on an electric transformer and such has HIDDEN dangers...hidden, as in not obvious! Someone posted there could be an attribute made for this, and someone else said it would make the cache hide too obvious (hence, take the fun out of the search). Since there's no attribute and not many would use it if there would, I'd propose not allowing these types of hides!

8.9k · December 22, 2008

It should be noted that the chance of being electrocuted while logging an LPC is actually much less than if you touched a random pole in the same lot, since the LPC's pole has been 'tested' recently (when the previous finder logged the cache or it was hidden). Therefore, your chance of being electrocuted is actually much less than the 1:10,000,000 preiously discussed.

Yep, the faulty light in my ceiling was tested...right up to the day it failed and then my house burned down! <_<

20.7k · December 22, 2008

I agree 100%...but not all of us use this same common sense, that's the problem! NOT hiding in or around these dangers would make a safer caching environment IMHO. We have people out there that'll actually use a real box with real equipment which isn't hooked up to power...this creates the appearance of it being real.
Life has danger. It is up to each of us to determine which dangers to undertake.

If we were to implement your logic, we would have to disallow all caches everywhere because each of them involves some amount of danger. "NOT hiding in or around these dangers would make a safer caching environment".

You're right sbell...while we're at it, maybe we should just stop people from walking or eating or anything else because there's danger in everything. Logical! Obviously, life is full of dangers, that's why we're TRAINED to be respectful of, and careful around life's dangers from the time we're born. When dangers are ignored by cache placers which train cachers to take risks they'd normally (and rightly so) not, then there's a problem! I am of the belief that NO cacher in their right mind would look in an electric box had it not been for some careless cacher making one a cache! Then, those with lesser intelligence are in trouble and I choose not to be the one who finds the less intelligent with one of my caches! But hey, have at it, my friend! Tell me how that works for you!

When going after a dangerous cache, there's attributes, diff/terrain ratings AND you can usually easily see the dangers at hand. Hiding a cache in an electric box, on an electric transformer and such has HIDDEN dangers...hidden, as in not obvious! Someone posted there could be an attribute made for this, and someone else said it would make the cache hide too obvious (hence, take the fun out of the search). Since there's no attribute and not many would use it if there would, I'd propose not allowing these types of hides!

See, you started out with something that I would happily agree with: The concept that cache owners should be able to decide which dangers to build into their caches. Unfortunately, I cannot support your suggestion that someone should make these decisions for the cache owners, however.

It should also be noted that these dangers of which you speak are not hidden. If there is electrical equipment present, the cache seeker can easily identify this and determine whether he is comfortable with the amount of danger involved, just like he could if the cache was hidden in a tree. The only difference is that with an electrical cache the perception of the danger may be higher than the actual danger. I see no problem with caches being perceived as being more dangerous than they actually are.

20.7k · December 22, 2008

It should be noted that the chance of being electrocuted while logging an LPC is actually much less than if you touched a random pole in the same lot, since the LPC's pole has been 'tested' recently (when the previous finder logged the cache or it was hidden). Therefore, your chance of being electrocuted is actually much less than the 1:10,000,000 preiously discussed.
Yep, the faulty light in my ceiling was tested...right up to the day it failed and then my house burned down!

That doesn't change the fact that the odds of it being bad at any given moment was greatly reduced by the fact that it was recently tested.

2.7k · December 22, 2008

The best reason not to have this attribute is because no one would no how to apply it.

Should the attribute be used if the item is fake? After all, there would be no electrical dnager.

Should the attribute be used if the hide is near electrical equipment, but not attached to it?

Should the attribute be used if the cache is attached to electrical equipment, but there is no danger?

Should the attribute be used if the cache is attached (or within) dead electrical equipment?

Should the attribute be used if the cache is hidden in a LPC base, but the location has been checked to ensure that the pole is not 'hot' (after all, the CO touched the pole and didn't get fried).

You could apply your "best reason" argument to almost any attribute.

I see a need for two attributes.

One attribute listed with the Special Equipment attributes which include;

Climbing gear

Boat

Scuba gear

Flashlight required

The attribute listed under Special Equipment would be for caches where electrical safety gear would be prudent to keep you safe while hunting the cache. It would be used the same way the Climbing gear or Scuba gear attribute is currently used. The image could be an electrical safety glove with lightning blots.

The other attribute would be listed with the Hazards attributes which include;

Cliff / falling rocks

Dangerous area

Poison plants

Snakes

Abandoned mines

The attribute listed under Hazards wouild be for caches where there is the potential to come in to contact with dangerous voltages is in the area. It woiuld be used in the same way that the Falling rocks, Poison plants, and Snakes attribute is used. The image could be a skull and cross bones, like the Dangerous area attribute image, with lightning bolts.

8.9k · December 22, 2008

I agree 100%...but not all of us use this same common sense, that's the problem! NOT hiding in or around these dangers would make a safer caching environment IMHO. We have people out there that'll actually use a real box with real equipment which isn't hooked up to power...this creates the appearance of it being real.
Life has danger. It is up to each of us to determine which dangers to undertake.

If we were to implement your logic, we would have to disallow all caches everywhere because each of them involves some amount of danger. "NOT hiding in or around these dangers would make a safer caching environment".

You're right sbell...while we're at it, maybe we should just stop people from walking or eating or anything else because there's danger in everything. Logical! Obviously, life is full of dangers, that's why we're TRAINED to be respectful of, and careful around life's dangers from the time we're born. When dangers are ignored by cache placers which train cachers to take risks they'd normally (and rightly so) not, then there's a problem! I am of the belief that NO cacher in their right mind would look in an electric box had it not been for some careless cacher making one a cache! Then, those with lesser intelligence are in trouble and I choose not to be the one who finds the less intelligent with one of my caches! But hey, have at it, my friend! Tell me how that works for you!

When going after a dangerous cache, there's attributes, diff/terrain ratings AND you can usually easily see the dangers at hand. Hiding a cache in an electric box, on an electric transformer and such has HIDDEN dangers...hidden, as in not obvious! Someone posted there could be an attribute made for this, and someone else said it would make the cache hide too obvious (hence, take the fun out of the search). Since there's no attribute and not many would use it if there would, I'd propose not allowing these types of hides!

See, you started out with something that I would happily agree with: The concept that cache owners should be able to decide which dangers to build into their caches. Unfortunately, I cannot support your suggestion that someone should make these decisions for the cache owners, however.

It should also be noted that these dangers of which you speak are not hidden. If there is electrical equipment present, the cache seeker can easily identify this and determine whether he is comfortable with the amount of danger involved, just like he could if the cache was hidden in a tree. The only difference is that with an electrical cache the perception of the danger may be higher than the actual danger. I see no problem with caches being perceived as being more dangerous than they actually are.

Yep, we should all be allowed to drive at whatever speed, eat any foods we want, smoke herb and such, but someone decided to protect us from ourselves...how dare they! They make gun laws, they set age limits, they stop us from having all kinds of fun...because someone was smart enough to realize that that activity, action or whatever, was dangerous. Many dangers were merely perceived, many are highly unlikely to happen, but they still stepped in!

Strange how people who are trained to work with electricity have posted against these types of hides...isn't it?

2.6k · December 22, 2008

This thread is a good example of why folks should be told they take full responsibility of their actions. No one can make sure everyone is safe when hunting their caches.

I'm not buying into the attribute for electrical devices. First, I think folks can recognize an electrical device when they see it. Second, the attribute would be a spoiler.

If someone shows up at ground zero and there are 10 or 20 good hiding spots for a small or smaller, a few of which are electrical equipment, then they have the choice of looking there first, last, or somewhere in the middle. Care should be taken when looking in or around electrical equipment just the same as you would in a hollow log, tree, or stump. Same with anywhere you stick you hand where something might grab, stick, bite, or sting you.

Additionally, make a cache "safe" with an attribute can be dangerous. Say you certify your cache is not in a hot electrical box. That leaves the possibility of it being in a dead electrical box. A seeker comes along and transposes a few digits in the coordinates. He's at a different electrical box, only this one is hot. Oops!

Every cacher should assume there are dangers around when caching and never assume a cache hunt is safe. Just like handing firearms: never assume a firearm is safe and never ever point it at another person unless you're willing to see them dead. Never assume an electrical box or device is dead--treat is as if it is hot. If you are uncomfortable, walk away.

Nicely said <_< :huh:

2.7k · December 22, 2008

Firespinner mentioned coming across a "green box" (pad mount transformer) that appeared to be pried open at some point,this doesn't surprise me.What does surprise me is that someone hunting for a cache lacks the common sense to leave a clearly locked electrical box alone!

I mean c'mon....forcing your way into an electrical panel?......sounds like natural selection at work to me...lmao!

I don't see a problem with electrical hides. Anything that is real is also designed to be tamper resistant (needing tools,knowledge,or force to gain entry to energized equipment) If you have enough knowledge to gain entry you know to leave it alone! If you have any brains at all you know not to force your way into anything electrical with a screw driver!

OK, let's take that common sense thing a bit in the other direction, because I've actually seen boxes needing equipment in order for you to get the cache (yep, some sensible cache hider decided they needed to make the fake box look real by closing it up all professional-like)...tamper-resistant?? Not likely! These are a bad hide regardless of how sneaky some hider thinks they are, and hiding behind the "common sense" argument doesn't mean a thing...when a cacher (no matter how intelligent they are) ends up electrocuted, a big black eye for our fun will follow as well as possible headaches for GS and for the cache hider!

Go ahead and test that "common sense" theory all you want, just remember that there are a lot of cachers who use less than common sense out there (hey, you pointed that out already)!

Sounds like the hider that you're talking about lacks common sense but I stick to not hide behind my common sense theory. Whether your hiding/hunting caches or walking across the street it takes common sense to do either successfully. My best advise to all of you nay sayers is DON'T HUNT 'EM IF YA DON'T LIKE 'EM!

On a side note,why do many posters here seem so hateful and condescending towards others? I've only been here about two weeks and it's already rubbing off on me. I think maybe I'll just start trolling before I hurt someones feelings.

I have fun on the other forums I visit, this one is a CONSTANT pissing contest...later people.

I can't cross in the middle of the street in my town without the chance of getting a ticket. Why is this? How many people do you know that got hurt not crossing at a crosswalk? Cross only at a crosswalk. Sounds like common sense doesn't it? Besides how many people do you really hear about in the news or read in the people that get hit by cars when not cross in a crosswalk? But still most cities will issue tickets for doing so. What it comes down to is that we can either self police or, after a bad enough accident, we have our caches policed by others (possibly non-cacher).

The reason that you have to cross at the crosswalk is to avoid getting hit by a car when you step out from between two parked vehicles. The law isn't to protect you. It is to protect the innocent person driving the vehicle from having an accident due to your negligence.

This is different than your deciding to take on the tiny amount of danger that exists in finding an LPC because in finding an LPC you are accepting all the danger, not passing some on to another person.

For the standard LPC hide (under the skirt) in a well maintained parking lot, I agree. However, I remember one DNF where I wasn't able to move the skirt by hand. Nothing was attached magnetically to the pole. There was an access panel on the pole. I noticed that three of the four screws where missing and the panel was bent back so that there was enough gap to see inside. I don't know what kind of testing or inspections this pole had but from the rust on the panel it was obvious that this damage happened some time ago. When I shown my flashlight inside all I saw was a couple of wires and some wire nut but no cache. If you hide a cache near a cliff you set the cliff attribute. If you hide a cache near some poison ivy you set the poisonous plant attribute. If you hide a cache where snakes are known to hang out you set the snake attribute. If you hide a cache near some live electrical wires do you think that people should just use common sense? Why warn people about cliffs, poisonous plants, and snakes in the area but not the chance of electric shock?

What about the other caches made out of and/or placed around electrical items like light switches, electrical outlets, electric boxes, etc?

20.7k · December 22, 2008

I agree 100%...but not all of us use this same common sense, that's the problem! NOT hiding in or around these dangers would make a safer caching environment IMHO. We have people out there that'll actually use a real box with real equipment which isn't hooked up to power...this creates the appearance of it being real.
Life has danger. It is up to each of us to determine which dangers to undertake.

If we were to implement your logic, we would have to disallow all caches everywhere because each of them involves some amount of danger. "NOT hiding in or around these dangers would make a safer caching environment".

You're right sbell...while we're at it, maybe we should just stop people from walking or eating or anything else because there's danger in everything. Logical! Obviously, life is full of dangers, that's why we're TRAINED to be respectful of, and careful around life's dangers from the time we're born. When dangers are ignored by cache placers which train cachers to take risks they'd normally (and rightly so) not, then there's a problem! I am of the belief that NO cacher in their right mind would look in an electric box had it not been for some careless cacher making one a cache! Then, those with lesser intelligence are in trouble and I choose not to be the one who finds the less intelligent with one of my caches! But hey, have at it, my friend! Tell me how that works for you!

When going after a dangerous cache, there's attributes, diff/terrain ratings AND you can usually easily see the dangers at hand. Hiding a cache in an electric box, on an electric transformer and such has HIDDEN dangers...hidden, as in not obvious! Someone posted there could be an attribute made for this, and someone else said it would make the cache hide too obvious (hence, take the fun out of the search). Since there's no attribute and not many would use it if there would, I'd propose not allowing these types of hides!

See, you started out with something that I would happily agree with: The concept that cache owners should be able to decide which dangers to build into their caches. Unfortunately, I cannot support your suggestion that someone should make these decisions for the cache owners, however.

It should also be noted that these dangers of which you speak are not hidden. If there is electrical equipment present, the cache seeker can easily identify this and determine whether he is comfortable with the amount of danger involved, just like he could if the cache was hidden in a tree. The only difference is that with an electrical cache the perception of the danger may be higher than the actual danger. I see no problem with caches being perceived as being more dangerous than they actually are.

Yep, we should all be allowed to drive at whatever speed, eat any foods we want, smoke herb and such, but someone decided to protect us from ourselves...how dare they! They make gun laws, they set age limits, they stop us from having all kinds of fun...because someone was smart enough to realize that that activity, action or whatever, was dangerous. Many dangers were merely perceived, many are highly unlikely to happen, but they still stepped in!

Strange how people who are trained to work with electricity have posted against these types of hides...isn't it?

You apparently didn't read my other post. Those laws are enacted not to keep you safe. They exist to keep other people safe from harm that your actions cause.

20.7k · December 22, 2008

Firespinner mentioned coming across a "green box" (pad mount transformer) that appeared to be pried open at some point,this doesn't surprise me.What does surprise me is that someone hunting for a cache lacks the common sense to leave a clearly locked electrical box alone!

I mean c'mon....forcing your way into an electrical panel?......sounds like natural selection at work to me...lmao!

I don't see a problem with electrical hides. Anything that is real is also designed to be tamper resistant (needing tools,knowledge,or force to gain entry to energized equipment) If you have enough knowledge to gain entry you know to leave it alone! If you have any brains at all you know not to force your way into anything electrical with a screw driver!

OK, let's take that common sense thing a bit in the other direction, because I've actually seen boxes needing equipment in order for you to get the cache (yep, some sensible cache hider decided they needed to make the fake box look real by closing it up all professional-like)...tamper-resistant?? Not likely! These are a bad hide regardless of how sneaky some hider thinks they are, and hiding behind the "common sense" argument doesn't mean a thing...when a cacher (no matter how intelligent they are) ends up electrocuted, a big black eye for our fun will follow as well as possible headaches for GS and for the cache hider!

Go ahead and test that "common sense" theory all you want, just remember that there are a lot of cachers who use less than common sense out there (hey, you pointed that out already)!

Sounds like the hider that you're talking about lacks common sense but I stick to not hide behind my common sense theory. Whether your hiding/hunting caches or walking across the street it takes common sense to do either successfully. My best advise to all of you nay sayers is DON'T HUNT 'EM IF YA DON'T LIKE 'EM!

On a side note,why do many posters here seem so hateful and condescending towards others? I've only been here about two weeks and it's already rubbing off on me. I think maybe I'll just start trolling before I hurt someones feelings.

I have fun on the other forums I visit, this one is a CONSTANT pissing contest...later people.

I can't cross in the middle of the street in my town without the chance of getting a ticket. Why is this? How many people do you know that got hurt not crossing at a crosswalk? Cross only at a crosswalk. Sounds like common sense doesn't it? Besides how many people do you really hear about in the news or read in the people that get hit by cars when not cross in a crosswalk? But still most cities will issue tickets for doing so. What it comes down to is that we can either self police or, after a bad enough accident, we have our caches policed by others (possibly non-cacher).

The reason that you have to cross at the crosswalk is to avoid getting hit by a car when you step out from between two parked vehicles. The law isn't to protect you. It is to protect the innocent person driving the vehicle from having an accident due to your negligence.

This is different than your deciding to take on the tiny amount of danger that exists in finding an LPC because in finding an LPC you are accepting all the danger, not passing some on to another person.

For the standard LPC hide (under the skirt) in a well maintained parking lot, I agree. However, I remember one DNF where I wasn't able to move the skirt by hand. Nothing was attached magnetically to the pole. There was an access panel on the pole. I noticed that three of the four screws where missing and the panel was bent back so that there was enough gap to see inside. I don't know what kind of testing or inspections this pole had but from the rust on the panel it was obvious that this damage happened some time ago. When I shown my flashlight inside all I saw was a couple of wires and some wire nut but no cache. If you hide a cache near a cliff you set the cliff attribute. If you hide a cache near some poison ivy you set the poisonous plant attribute. If you hide a cache where snakes are known to hang out you set the snake attribute. If you hide a cache near some live electrical wires do you think that people should just use common sense? Why warn people about cliffs, poisonous plants, and snakes in the area but not the chance of electric shock?

What about the other caches made out of and/or placed around electrical items like light switches, electrical outlets, electric boxes, etc?

Were you able to identify the pole (and opening in the pole) before you touched it? If so, there was no hidden danger. You saw the location and processed the potential for danger, making a decision whether or not the amount of risk was acceptable or not.

2.5k · December 22, 2008

They exist to keep other people safe from harm that your actions cause.

So? They're in existence to keep someone safe!

Who would a guideline disallowing the hiding of a cache on electrical equipment protect? To some extent the cache hider, but it would really protect the cacher who didn't have the common sense to realize that they shouldn't be looking in such a location.

2.7k · December 22, 2008

This thread is a good example of why folks should be told they take full responsibility of their actions. No one can make sure everyone is safe when hunting their caches.

I'm not buying into the attribute for electrical devices. First, I think folks can recognize an electrical device when they see it. Second, the attribute would be a spoiler.

If someone shows up at ground zero and there are 10 or 20 good hiding spots for a small or smaller, a few of which are electrical equipment, then they have the choice of looking there first, last, or somewhere in the middle. Care should be taken when looking in or around electrical equipment just the same as you would in a hollow log, tree, or stump. Same with anywhere you stick you hand where something might grab, stick, bite, or sting you.

Additionally, make a cache "safe" with an attribute can be dangerous. Say you certify your cache is not in a hot electrical box. That leaves the possibility of it being in a dead electrical box. A seeker comes along and transposes a few digits in the coordinates. He's at a different electrical box, only this one is hot. Oops!

Every cacher should assume there are dangers around when caching and never assume a cache hunt is safe. Just like handing firearms: never assume a firearm is safe and never ever point it at another person unless you're willing to see them dead. Never assume an electrical box or device is dead--treat is as if it is hot. If you are uncomfortable, walk away.

Nicely said

And if this same logic was applied to some of the current attributes that are there for other hazards.

I'm not buying into the attribute for Abandoned mines. First, I think folks can recognize an Abandoned mine when they see it. Second, the attribute would be a spoiler.

I'm not buying into the attribute for Cliff / falling rocks. First, I think folks can recognize Cliffs / falling rocks when they see it. Second, the attribute would be a spoiler.

I'm not buying into the attribute for Poison plants. First, I think folks can recognize Poison plants when they see them. Second, the attribute would be a spoiler.

I'm not buying into the attribute for Thorns. First, I think folks can recognize Thorns when they see it. Second, the attribute would be a spoiler.

I'm not buying into the attribute for Snakes. First, I think folks can recognize a Snake when they see it.

Maybe Groundspeak should get rid of all Hazard type attributes because people should be able to identify them and avoid.

8.9k · December 22, 2008

They exist to keep other people safe from harm that your actions cause.
So? They're in existence to keep someone safe!

Who would a guideline disallowing the hiding of a cache on electrical equipment protect? To some extent the cache hider, but it would really protect the cacher who didn't have the common sense to realize that they shouldn't be looking in such a location.

Exactly! I've said this a few times now, but it doesn't seem to get through!

20.7k · December 22, 2008

They exist to keep other people safe from harm that your actions cause.
So? They're in existence to keep someone safe!

Who would a guideline disallowing the hiding of a cache on electrical equipment protect? To some extent the cache hider, but it would really protect the cacher who didn't have the common sense to realize that they shouldn't be looking in such a location.

You mistated my position.

Those laws exist to keep someone else safe from an individual's actions. No law is needed to keep you safe from your actions or to keep me safe from mine. Similarly, no guideline is necessary to tell you where not to stick your hand.

3.2k · December 22, 2008

This thread is a good example of why folks should be told they take full responsibility of their actions. No one can make sure everyone is safe when hunting their caches.

I'm not buying into the attribute for electrical devices. First, I think folks can recognize an electrical device when they see it. Second, the attribute would be a spoiler.

If someone shows up at ground zero and there are 10 or 20 good hiding spots for a small or smaller, a few of which are electrical equipment, then they have the choice of looking there first, last, or somewhere in the middle. Care should be taken when looking in or around electrical equipment just the same as you would in a hollow log, tree, or stump. Same with anywhere you stick you hand where something might grab, stick, bite, or sting you.

Additionally, make a cache "safe" with an attribute can be dangerous. Say you certify your cache is not in a hot electrical box. That leaves the possibility of it being in a dead electrical box. A seeker comes along and transposes a few digits in the coordinates. He's at a different electrical box, only this one is hot. Oops!

Every cacher should assume there are dangers around when caching and never assume a cache hunt is safe. Just like handing firearms: never assume a firearm is safe and never ever point it at another person unless you're willing to see them dead. Never assume an electrical box or device is dead--treat is as if it is hot. If you are uncomfortable, walk away.

Nicely said

Just for fun let's assume you have hidden a cache in a fake electrical box. About 50 feet away is a live box and a fellow cacher is electrocuted after forcing his way into this box. Do you still write the same post in defense of your cache? I guess there's no right answer for everyone.

20.7k · December 22, 2008

This thread is a good example of why folks should be told they take full responsibility of their actions. No one can make sure everyone is safe when hunting their caches.

I'm not buying into the attribute for electrical devices. First, I think folks can recognize an electrical device when they see it. Second, the attribute would be a spoiler.

If someone shows up at ground zero and there are 10 or 20 good hiding spots for a small or smaller, a few of which are electrical equipment, then they have the choice of looking there first, last, or somewhere in the middle. Care should be taken when looking in or around electrical equipment just the same as you would in a hollow log, tree, or stump. Same with anywhere you stick you hand where something might grab, stick, bite, or sting you.

Additionally, make a cache "safe" with an attribute can be dangerous. Say you certify your cache is not in a hot electrical box. That leaves the possibility of it being in a dead electrical box. A seeker comes along and transposes a few digits in the coordinates. He's at a different electrical box, only this one is hot. Oops!

Every cacher should assume there are dangers around when caching and never assume a cache hunt is safe. Just like handing firearms: never assume a firearm is safe and never ever point it at another person unless you're willing to see them dead. Never assume an electrical box or device is dead--treat is as if it is hot. If you are uncomfortable, walk away.

Nicely said
Just for fun let's assume you have hidden a cache in a fake electrical box. About 50 feet away is a live box and a fellow cacher is electrocuted after forcing his way into this box. Do you still write the same post in defense of your cache? I guess there's no right answer for everyone.

Let's assume that you hid your cache in a bush fifty feet away from the live box. Remember, the absense of an attribute doesn't mean that the conditions don't exist. Edited December 22, 2008 by sbell111

3.2k · December 22, 2008

This thread is a good example of why folks should be told they take full responsibility of their actions. No one can make sure everyone is safe when hunting their caches.

I'm not buying into the attribute for electrical devices. First, I think folks can recognize an electrical device when they see it. Second, the attribute would be a spoiler.

If someone shows up at ground zero and there are 10 or 20 good hiding spots for a small or smaller, a few of which are electrical equipment, then they have the choice of looking there first, last, or somewhere in the middle. Care should be taken when looking in or around electrical equipment just the same as you would in a hollow log, tree, or stump. Same with anywhere you stick you hand where something might grab, stick, bite, or sting you.

Additionally, make a cache "safe" with an attribute can be dangerous. Say you certify your cache is not in a hot electrical box. That leaves the possibility of it being in a dead electrical box. A seeker comes along and transposes a few digits in the coordinates. He's at a different electrical box, only this one is hot. Oops!

Every cacher should assume there are dangers around when caching and never assume a cache hunt is safe. Just like handing firearms: never assume a firearm is safe and never ever point it at another person unless you're willing to see them dead. Never assume an electrical box or device is dead--treat is as if it is hot. If you are uncomfortable, walk away.

Nicely said
Just for fun let's assume you have hidden a cache in a fake electrical box. About 50 feet away is a live box and a fellow cacher is electrocuted after forcing his way into this box. Do you still write the same post in defense of your cache? I guess there's no right answer for everyone.
Let's assume that you hid your cache in a bush fifty feet away from the live box. Remember, the absense of an attribute doesn't mean that the conditions don't exist.

That's a yes?

2.2k · December 22, 2008

Nearly everything we do in every day life is more dangerous than this. Should we, therefore, not do anything? Driving to a cache location is more dangerous than searching for an LPC. Should we therefore never again look for any geocache?

Of course not, nor did I (I think) every imply that that kind of an extreme response was required. This is an example of a strawman argument (by setting up an argument that was not mine, implying that it was mine, and arguing against it), as well as a false dichotomy (by suggesting that there are only two options available to us: encourage and accept electrical hides or do absolutely nothing at all, especially not geocaching).

When you consider risk, you have to balance the goal against the risk. What is the actual risk? How likely is it to occur? How bad could it be if it did? And is the goal worth taking the risk? What can you do to minimize the risk?

Risk management involves considering all of these things -- just because something is unlikely to happen does not mean that it is safe to disregard it entirely. Especially when the actual severity is high (such as death).

In this case, it seems to me that placing caches disguised as electrical equipment is actually increasing the risk by encouraging people to investigate electrical equipment. I personally do not think that the possible gain (a cool cache) is worth the risk, especially given that there are all kinds of ways to hide cool caches.

Perhaps we should no longer hide caches in trees because people could fall out of a tree. Caches should never require a boat because people could drown. (The chance is actually much greater that a person drown while going after one of these than getting electricuted looking for an LPC.)

This is an example of goalpost moving. I think I was fairly clear that I was talking about caches explictly disguised to look like electrical equipment, hidden in electrically-dangerous areas or areas that would normally be electrically-dangerous, such as a power transformer that has no power to it. If I was not clear about this, I apologise. I was not talking about lamp-post caches which are, as I understand it, caches hidden under the "skirts" of lamp-posts (please correct me if I am wrong).

7.2k · December 22, 2008

Just for fun let's assume you have hidden a cache in a fake electrical box. About 50 feet away is a live box and a fellow cacher is electrocuted after forcing his way into this box. Do you still write the same post in defense of your cache?

If you're referring to my post and not the poster who quoted me, then, yes, I do.

Personal responsibility is a great thing. If I say the cache is in an electrical box, then I might have some responsibility especially if I don't properly mark the cache. However, if anyone forces their way into a cache then there's something wrong. But if I told him to look in electrical boxes for the cache, then yeah, maybe--a little bit.

If I simply hide a cache in an electrical box, not say it's in an electrical box, and the cacher opens a different electrical box, how am I to prevent that? ...not hide caches within a GPS circle of error of an electrical box? Remember the paradigm is already set. If I'm not telling him to look in electrical boxes then why is he and why is he so sure it's in there that he takes extraordinary measures to get inside?

It's the same with all manner of other objects. Would it be my responsibility someone gets arrested for vandalizing a sprinkler head because I've hidden a fake sprinkler-head cache?

It may be partially my responsibility because I set a paradigm. I think it would be just about as much as if I hid a cache, and a seeker tripped and got hurt. I set the cache for them to hunt. They probably wouldn't be there if I hadn't set said cache. How am I to prevent them falling and getting hurt? Same with setting a particular paradigm. How am I to force someone to use common sense and perform some sort of test to see if the object is the real thing or a fake?

Here's the kicker. Someone who hides a cache that resembles a dangerous object--like an electrical box--sets the paradigm and that is not necessarily the cache owner who has someone get hurt on his cache hunt simply because he placed it near said potentially dangerous object.

Taking care around electrical devices is on the same level as looking before you stick your hand in a hole, either be able to swim or wear a PFD while canoeing or kayaking, climb beyond a certain height only with climbing gear, etc., etc. If I hide a cache 40' up a tree, I shouldn't have to say to be careful.

While geocaching is always being marketed as a safe sport, it can be as dangerous as any other outdoor activity.

7.2k · December 22, 2008

In this case, it seems to me that placing caches disguised as electrical equipment is actually increasing the risk by encouraging people to investigate electrical equipment. I personally do not think that the possible gain (a cool cache) is worth the risk, especially given that there are all kinds of ways to hide cool caches.

Actually, most electrical-box caches--all that I've seen anyway--involve a dead box that has been gutted. Either the box itself is the container or a container is in the box. Either way, it was immediately clear whether the box was a cache or not. It is safe to open most any electrical box. Otherwise electricians would be getting electrocuted a lot more often. Once open you can see if it's a fake or not. If you don't see a container or trinkets, don't be going sticking your finger on stuff in there.

I do believe the OP was referring to live electrical equipment, like a lamp post, that has had a failure of some sort. If the post is not properly grounded and a live wire is touching the post, then that creates a very dangerous situation. You come along and make your self part of the circuit. ZAP!

Heck, you know those guy wires that hold a pole straight? Many of those are also grounds. Let an insulator get dirty and you pull up a loose guy wire... ZAP!

I guess, potentially, the same can be said of an electrical box, but then again simply touching it would get you the zap. Then it could be more than that. I was going to make a list, but there are so many things that I could name. If things like that didn't happen we wouldn't need breakers and fuses in a our homes or GFCI outlets in our kitchens and bathrooms.

8.9k · December 22, 2008

Just for fun let's assume you have hidden a cache in a fake electrical box. About 50 feet away is a live box and a fellow cacher is electrocuted after forcing his way into this box. Do you still write the same post in defense of your cache?

If you're referring to my post and not the poster who quoted me, then, yes, I do.

Personal responsibility is a great thing. If I say the cache is in an electrical box, then I might have some responsibility especially if I don't properly mark the cache. However, if anyone forces their way into a cache then there's something wrong. But if I told him to look in electrical boxes for the cache, then yeah, maybe--a little bit.

If I simply hide a cache in an electrical box, not say it's in an electrical box, and the cacher opens a different electrical box, how am I to prevent that? ...not hide caches within a GPS circle of error of an electrical box? Remember the paradigm is already set. If I'm not telling him to look in electrical boxes then why is he and why is he so sure it's in there that he takes extraordinary measures to get inside?

It's the same with all manner of other objects. Would it be my responsibility someone gets arrested for vandalizing a sprinkler head because I've hidden a fake sprinkler-head cache?

It may be partially my responsibility because I set a paradigm. I think it would be just about as much as if I hid a cache, and a seeker tripped and got hurt. I set the cache for them to hunt. They probably wouldn't be there if I hadn't set said cache. How am I to prevent them falling and getting hurt? Same with setting a particular paradigm. How am I to force someone to use common sense and perform some sort of test to see if the object is the real thing or a fake?

Here's the kicker. Someone who hides a cache that resembles a dangerous object--like an electrical box--sets the paradigm and that is not necessarily the cache owner who has someone get hurt on his cache hunt simply because he placed it near said potentially dangerous object.

Taking care around electrical devices is on the same level as looking before you stick your hand in a hole, either be able to swim or wear a PFD while canoeing or kayaking, climb beyond a certain height only with climbing gear, etc., etc. If I hide a cache 40' up a tree, I shouldn't have to say to be careful.

While geocaching is always being marketed as a safe sport, it can be as dangerous as any other outdoor activity.

I'll tell you how to prevent that, don't allow ANY of these kinds of hides (I know you're not in chage of this, just throwing that out there)! If the PTB did away with this type of hide, no one would be looking in them, no danger! I suspect the only reason people are looking in these in the first place...just my theory though!

Edited December 22, 2008 by Rockin Roddy

2.2k · December 22, 2008

Actually, most electrical-box caches--all that I've seen anyway--involve a dead box that has been gutted. Either the box itself is the container or a container is in the box. Either way, it was immediately clear whether the box was a cache or not. It is safe to open most any electrical box. Otherwise electricians would be getting electrocuted a lot more often. Once open you can see if it's a fake or not. If you don't see a container or trinkets, don't be going sticking your finger on stuff in there.

I personally think it would be best to avoid placing caches like this entirely. It is the electrician's business to be poking around in electrical boxes; he or she knows the risk and is (or should be) regularly trained in methods to minimize that risk. It is not a good idea to trust the interlocks or safeties on equipment that you do not personally regularly maintain and are not trained to use. Again, that's just my opinion, as someone whose job it is to maintain electrical equipment (I'm not trying to argue from authority here, just to give you a sense of the background I have that makes me so...interested...in electrical equipment safety).

I do believe the OP was referring to live electrical equipment, like a lamp post, that has had a failure of some sort. If the post is not properly grounded and a live wire is touching the post, then that creates a very dangerous situation. You come along and make your self part of the circuit. ZAP!

Ah! If that is the case, then I am off-topic, and for that I apologize.

I'm not sure I have a solid opinion on this particular instance (that is, malfunctioning lamp-posts). I'll have to think about it some more (and read on, of course). Thanks for pointing out my error!

8.9k · December 22, 2008

In this case, it seems to me that placing caches disguised as electrical equipment is actually increasing the risk by encouraging people to investigate electrical equipment. I personally do not think that the possible gain (a cool cache) is worth the risk, especially given that there are all kinds of ways to hide cool caches.

Actually, most electrical-box caches--all that I've seen anyway--involve a dead box that has been gutted. Either the box itself is the container or a container is in the box. Either way, it was immediately clear whether the box was a cache or not. It is safe to open most any electrical box. Otherwise electricians would be getting electrocuted a lot more often. Once open you can see if it's a fake or not. If you don't see a container or trinkets, don't be going sticking your finger on stuff in there.

I do believe the OP was referring to live electrical equipment, like a lamp post, that has had a failure of some sort. If the post is not properly grounded and a live wire is touching the post, then that creates a very dangerous situation. You come along and make your self part of the circuit. ZAP!

Heck, you know those guy wires that hold a pole straight? Many of those are also grounds. Let an insulator get dirty and you pull up a loose guy wire... ZAP!

I guess, potentially, the same can be said of an electrical box, but then again simply touching it would get you the zap. Then it could be more than that. I was going to make a list, but there are so many things that I could name. If things like that didn't happen we wouldn't need breakers and fuses in a our homes or GFCI outlets in our kitchens and bathrooms.

I've seen pictures of ones which were filled with wires and breakers and all the trimmings, still fake, but real looking. Again, not everyone uses common sense when placing hides. Not saying all finders do, but there is responsibility on both sides of this!

3.9k · December 22, 2008

Come on folks, it's Christmas time.

Put it all aside for a few days, will ya?

You keep rewording the same arguements and finding different ways to disagree with each other. Stop.

4.2k · December 22, 2008

EDIT:

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Edited December 22, 2008 by Castle Mischief

2.6k · December 23, 2008

This thread is a good example of why folks should be told they take full responsibility of their actions. No one can make sure everyone is safe when hunting their caches.

I'm not buying into the attribute for electrical devices. First, I think folks can recognize an electrical device when they see it. Second, the attribute would be a spoiler.

If someone shows up at ground zero and there are 10 or 20 good hiding spots for a small or smaller, a few of which are electrical equipment, then they have the choice of looking there first, last, or somewhere in the middle. Care should be taken when looking in or around electrical equipment just the same as you would in a hollow log, tree, or stump. Same with anywhere you stick you hand where something might grab, stick, bite, or sting you.

Additionally, make a cache "safe" with an attribute can be dangerous. Say you certify your cache is not in a hot electrical box. That leaves the possibility of it being in a dead electrical box. A seeker comes along and transposes a few digits in the coordinates. He's at a different electrical box, only this one is hot. Oops!

Every cacher should assume there are dangers around when caching and never assume a cache hunt is safe. Just like handing firearms: never assume a firearm is safe and never ever point it at another person unless you're willing to see them dead. Never assume an electrical box or device is dead--treat is as if it is hot. If you are uncomfortable, walk away.

Nicely said

And if this same logic was applied to some of the current attributes that are there for other hazards.

I'm not buying into the attribute for Abandoned mines. First, I think folks can recognize an Abandoned mine when they see it. Second, the attribute would be a spoiler.

I'm not buying into the attribute for Cliff / falling rocks. First, I think folks can recognize Cliffs / falling rocks when they see it. Second, the attribute would be a spoiler.

I'm not buying into the attribute for Poison plants. First, I think folks can recognize Poison plants when they see them. Second, the attribute would be a spoiler.

I'm not buying into the attribute for Thorns. First, I think folks can recognize Thorns when they see it. Second, the attribute would be a spoiler.

I'm not buying into the attribute for Snakes. First, I think folks can recognize a Snake when they see it.

Maybe Groundspeak should get rid of all Hazard type attributes because people should be able to identify them and avoid.

Should but many can't

7.2k · December 23, 2008

I'll tell you how to prevent that, don't allow ANY of these kinds of hides (I know you're not in chage of this, just throwing that out there)! If the PTB did away with this type of hide, no one would be looking in them, no danger! I suspect the only reason people are looking in these in the first place...just my theory though!

Tis true.

Here's the problem though. Where do you draw the line? Would climbing caches be next because of the danger of climbing a rock face? How about a tree? We've had folks admonish us because we put a cache up a tree. (...or two.) How about canoe caches? No risk of drowning if you're not near water. Hiking the side of a mountain should be certified "fall-free?"

I remain in favor of personal responsibility.

7.2k · December 23, 2008

Not saying all finders do, but there is responsibility on both sides of this!

That's the truth!

8.9k · December 23, 2008

I'll tell you how to prevent that, don't allow ANY of these kinds of hides (I know you're not in chage of this, just throwing that out there)! If the PTB did away with this type of hide, no one would be looking in them, no danger! I suspect the only reason people are looking in these in the first place...just my theory though!

Tis true.

Here's the problem though. Where do you draw the line? Would climbing caches be next because of the danger of climbing a rock face? How about a tree? We've had folks admonish us because we put a cache up a tree. (...or two.) How about canoe caches? No risk of drowning if you're not near water. Hiking the side of a mountain should be certified "fall-free?"

I remain in favor of personal responsibility.

The deal is, with those caches, you know what you're getting into. There's attributes, the diff/terrain ratings and likely the description...plus getting to GZ, you'll probably know right off! For cliffs and water caches, the map also helps... For the electric box hides, no attribute, no one telling you what to expect etc. I said it was a hidden danger, but was told it wasn't?? It pretty much is even if it is merely close to the electric boxes (would be helpful if people said to steer clear of them in this instance, but it doesn't happen often). The possibility for danger is increased merely because of the chance it is (and thus the draw to check).

People reading a terrain of 5 and know whether or not the cache is for them. People are aware there's a risk involved...not with these.

Personal responsibility only works for about 65% or so of the people...at best! Some really "need" to be watched out for...seriously! I went mountain climbing last spring, we climbed (without rope, so it makes sense what I tell you) a "novice" mountain (around 6500') and noticed people following us. Come to find out, they were following because "they saw us doing it"...no experience, no safety equipment, not even water. Almost killed the girl and they were lucky I knew what was going on! My point, some people don't use common sense, some need watched out for even if we shouldn't be responsible for their actions. I could have left them up there, but I acted responsible!

December 23, 2008

Looks like Vinny likes to see that good horse get beat to death over and over.

Had some reading for a few days I have work in the power line bizz for over 20 yrs.

Don't have a problem with these caches. Most of them are the same old thing.

Not saying that some are not place very well. But a well hinded ammo can in the woods can be just as bad. So do we do a way with them, what about all the trails , plants , flowers ,animals, snakes that get killed doing them caches in the woods. If you don't like them don't do them.

You can make good points and bad ponits with all caches and life.

You can fall out of bed in the morning and break your neck ?

Me I am going to sleep in my bed and not on the floor !

There are a lot of cachers thet never look at the attribute or rateings. They just put them in the gps and go. You can't keep every one happy or safe. Its just life!!

Happy Holidays to all and to all a good night !!!!!

Vinny leave them dead horse beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

3.2k · December 23, 2008

We can discuss this forever and nothing will change. Someone gets injured or killed and the lawyers will discuss it for a couple weeks and someone will pay.

Edited December 23, 2008 by edscott

8.9k · December 23, 2008

We can discuss this forever and nothing will change. Someone gets injured or killed and the lawyers will discuss if for a couple weeks and someone will pay.

Yep!

1.4k · December 23, 2008

Taking care around electrical devices is on the same level as looking before you stick your hand in a hole

I have to disagree with you here, this is simply not valid. You cannot "see" if something is energized. If you encounter stray voltage on the distribution grid you are probably looking at 14, 400 volts, this is not a spider bite, it will kill you instantly, you do not get a chance to recover, there is no antidote.

It is safe to open most any electrical box. Otherwise electricians would be getting electrocuted a lot more often.

This is simply not true when you are working around or near the distribution system. All workers use specialized tools to ensure that the equipment is not energized, this is done without touching anything. A voltage tester senses the difference in potential and signals a warning, it doesn't quantify the danger, it just signals that it exists. Once a warning is signalled a worker is allowed to attempt a few specific methods of mitigating the potential difference and if it cannot be mitigated no further work can be done until a supervisor assesses the situation.

The reason that the danger isn't quantified by the tester is that workers tend to relax when voltages are low. (less than 750 volts). If you stick your hand in a hole and you get bit by a spider or a snake you have some time to get to the hospital. If you get bitten by 14,400 volts your bone marrow is thoroughly cooked and even if your eyes are open and you are talking - you are actually dead.

The electric distribution system is dangerous, even to electricians. No electric utliity has ever or will ever give permission for a cache hidden on distribution equipment. even something as simple as a magnetic sign stuck to a transformer is potentially deadly. A guy wire used to anchor a wooden power pole can easily become energized, that is why they are wrapped in orange PVC, this PVC pipe is there specifically to prevent people from contacting the guy wire inadvertantly.

People do get killed all the time when working near distribution equipment. A young power line worker was killed just a few months ago very close to home. The boom of the truck contacted the secondary and all work was stopped, this young man decided to open the truck door. When he touched the truck he was killed, they had time to get him to the hospital before he actually died.

3.9k · December 23, 2008

Looks like Vinny likes to see that good horse get beat to death over and over.

Had some reading for a few days I have work in the power line bizz for over 20 yrs.

Don't have a problem with these caches. Most of them are the same old thing.

Not saying that some are not place very well. But a well hinded ammo can in the woods can be just as bad. So do we do a way with them, what about all the trails , plants , flowers ,animals, snakes that get killed doing them caches in the woods. If you don't like them don't do them.

You can make good points and bad ponits with all caches and life.

You can fall out of bed in the morning and break your neck ?

Me I am going to sleep in my bed and not on the floor !

There are a lot of cachers thet never look at the attribute or rateings. They just put them in the gps and go. You can't keep every one happy or safe. Its just life!!

Happy Holidays to all and to all a good night !!!!!

Vinny leave them dead horse beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

(I actually felt that the topic was well worth revisiting, but I enjoyed your post!)

2.5k · December 23, 2008

They exist to keep other people safe from harm that your actions cause.
So? They're in existence to keep someone safe!

Who would a guideline disallowing the hiding of a cache on electrical equipment protect? To some extent the cache hider, but it would really protect the cacher who didn't have the common sense to realize that they shouldn't be looking in such a location.

You mistated my position.

Those laws exist to keep someone else safe from an individual's actions. No law is needed to keep you safe from your actions or to keep me safe from mine. Similarly, no guideline is necessary to tell you where not to stick your hand.

Common sense dictates that since cachers are hiding & hunting caches in these potentially dangerous spots that there is a problem. (And we're still completely ignoring the permission issue here!)

Of course, someone already said it: Common sense isn't common. That is being demonstrated quite well in this thread.

20.7k · December 23, 2008

I'll tell you how to prevent that, don't allow ANY of these kinds of hides (I know you're not in chage of this, just throwing that out there)! If the PTB did away with this type of hide, no one would be looking in them, no danger! I suspect the only reason people are looking in these in the first place...just my theory though!

Tis true.

Here's the problem though. Where do you draw the line? Would climbing caches be next because of the danger of climbing a rock face? How about a tree? We've had folks admonish us because we put a cache up a tree. (...or two.) How about canoe caches? No risk of drowning if you're not near water. Hiking the side of a mountain should be certified "fall-free?"

I remain in favor of personal responsibility.

The deal is, with those caches, you know what you're getting into. There's attributes, the diff/terrain ratings and likely the description...plus getting to GZ, you'll probably know right off! For cliffs and water caches, the map also helps... For the electric box hides, no attribute, no one telling you what to expect etc. I said it was a hidden danger, but was told it wasn't?? It pretty much is even if it is merely close to the electric boxes (would be helpful if people said to steer clear of them in this instance, but it doesn't happen often). The possibility for danger is increased merely because of the chance it is (and thus the draw to check).

I disagree. There is no hidden danger. When you arrive at ground zero, you see a light pole or an electrical box or something similar. You then decide whether or not to accept the small amount of risk and investigate further. Surely, you are not arguing that players of this game do not have the ability to abort a cache hunt.

It should also be noted that the argument that people should identify that the cache is hidden on or in safe electrical equipment is flawed. Imagine a scenario where I have hidden a cache in a fake electrical box. I set whatever attribute you would like to identify such a cache and note on the cache page that there is no risk of electrocution in logging the find. During the first couple of months of the cache's life, it is found fifty times and enjoyed by most. Then one foggy Christmas Eve, a cacher using a two year-old Magellan tries to find it. He ends up searching 100 yards from my cache where there just happens to be a power pole with a bad ground wire. BZZZZT! The silly boy becomes #31.

To those who want to do away with these types of caches, let me remind you that the genie is already out of the bottle. Trying to deny all future fake electrical box caches will not stop people from finding old ones and, therefore, having the knowledge that caches may exist in, on, or near electrical equipment. Therefore, that cacher with the two-year old Magellan with poorly entered coords could just as easily be looking for the ammo can under a bush and find the power box 100 yards away.

20.7k · December 23, 2008

They exist to keep other people safe from harm that your actions cause.
So? They're in existence to keep someone safe!

Who would a guideline disallowing the hiding of a cache on electrical equipment protect? To some extent the cache hider, but it would really protect the cacher who didn't have the common sense to realize that they shouldn't be looking in such a location.

You mistated my position.

Those laws exist to keep someone else safe from an individual's actions. No law is needed to keep you safe from your actions or to keep me safe from mine. Similarly, no guideline is necessary to tell you where not to stick your hand.

Common sense dictates that since cachers are hiding & hunting caches in these potentially dangerous spots that there is a problem. (And we're still completely ignoring the permission issue here!)

Of course, someone already said it: Common sense isn't common. That is being demonstrated quite well in this thread.

All spots are potentially dangerous. Most spots are far more dangerous than the base of a light pole. Therefore, I reject the argument that the fact that people hide and find these caches is evidence that these caches should not exist.

I am also somewhat tired of people throwing out "common sense isn't common" to support weak arguments to control the actions of other people.

8.9k · December 23, 2008

They exist to keep other people safe from harm that your actions cause.
So? They're in existence to keep someone safe!

Who would a guideline disallowing the hiding of a cache on electrical equipment protect? To some extent the cache hider, but it would really protect the cacher who didn't have the common sense to realize that they shouldn't be looking in such a location.

You mistated my position.

Those laws exist to keep someone else safe from an individual's actions. No law is needed to keep you safe from your actions or to keep me safe from mine. Similarly, no guideline is necessary to tell you where not to stick your hand.

Common sense dictates that since cachers are hiding & hunting caches in these potentially dangerous spots that there is a problem. (And we're still completely ignoring the permission issue here!)

Of course, someone already said it: Common sense isn't common. That is being demonstrated quite well in this thread.

All spots are potentially dangerous. Most spots are far more dangerous than the base of a light pole. Therefore, I reject the argument that the fact that people hide and find these caches is evidence that these caches should not exist.

I am also somewhat tired of people throwing out "common sense isn't common" to support weak arguments to control the actions of other people.

Must not be too tired, I see your back and ready to go round and round some more! <_< Do you deny there are people out there that need looking out for?

Here's what I grow tired of...the "all caches are dangerous" argument. Talk about a weak and useless argument! Breathing is dangerous too, but we all know this and will accept the dangers. Not everyone knows the dangers of those boxes (as evidenced by your very posts), so yeah, it's a hidden danger for those who are in the most danger!

And I'll try hard not to post here anymore...but it was a good laugh just mixing it up with someone like you!

Edited December 23, 2008 by Rockin Roddy

3.3k · December 23, 2008

All spots are potentially dangerous. Most spots are far more dangerous than the base of a light pole. Therefore, I reject the argument that the fact that people hide and find these caches is evidence that these caches should not exist.

I am also somewhat tired of people throwing out "common sense isn't common" to support weak arguments to control the actions of other people.

Every time this subject is brought up, you seem to ignore the permission issue outright.

As a geo challenge I'd like any hider to admit they received permission for an electrical hide. If you received permission, who gave it?

Edited December 23, 2008 by Kit Fox

8.9k · December 23, 2008

All spots are potentially dangerous. Most spots are far more dangerous than the base of a light pole. Therefore, I reject the argument that the fact that people hide and find these caches is evidence that these caches should not exist.

I am also somewhat tired of people throwing out "common sense isn't common" to support weak arguments to control the actions of other people.

Every time this subject is brought up, you seem to ignore the permission issue outright.

As a geo challenge I'd like any hider to admit they received permission for an electrical hide. If you received permission, who gave it?

I don't think he ignores it, he just doesn't have those snappy comments to cover that...

20.7k · December 23, 2008

All spots are potentially dangerous. Most spots are far more dangerous than the base of a light pole. Therefore, I reject the argument that the fact that people hide and find these caches is evidence that these caches should not exist.

I am also somewhat tired of people throwing out "common sense isn't common" to support weak arguments to control the actions of other people.

Every time this subject is brought up, you seem to ignore the permission issue outright.

As a geo challenge I'd like any hider to admit they received permission for an electrical hide. If you received permission, who gave it?

I didn't discuss permission because I knew that the 'permission' argument was a red herring. In several of the LPC threads, people have stated that they received permission. Reviewers have similarly weighed in that they were aware of permission on some of these caches. Also, you forget that people have been railing about fake electrical boxes in this thread, also. These would not have a special permission barrier, in my opinion. Edited December 23, 2008 by sbell111

20.7k · December 23, 2008

They exist to keep other people safe from harm that your actions cause.
So? They're in existence to keep someone safe!

Who would a guideline disallowing the hiding of a cache on electrical equipment protect? To some extent the cache hider, but it would really protect the cacher who didn't have the common sense to realize that they shouldn't be looking in such a location.

You mistated my position.

Those laws exist to keep someone else safe from an individual's actions. No law is needed to keep you safe from your actions or to keep me safe from mine. Similarly, no guideline is necessary to tell you where not to stick your hand.

Common sense dictates that since cachers are hiding & hunting caches in these potentially dangerous spots that there is a problem. (And we're still completely ignoring the permission issue here!)

Of course, someone already said it: Common sense isn't common. That is being demonstrated quite well in this thread.

All spots are potentially dangerous. Most spots are far more dangerous than the base of a light pole. Therefore, I reject the argument that the fact that people hide and find these caches is evidence that these caches should not exist.

I am also somewhat tired of people throwing out "common sense isn't common" to support weak arguments to control the actions of other people.

Must not be too tired, I see your back and ready to go round and round some more! Do you deny there are people out there that need looking out for?

Here's what I grow tired of...the "all caches are dangerous" argument. Talk about a weak and useless argument! Breathing is dangerous too, but we all know this and will accept the dangers. Not everyone knows the dangers of those boxes (as evidenced by your very posts), so yeah, it's a hidden danger for those who are in the most danger!

And I'll try hard not to post here anymore...but it was a good laugh just mixing it up with someone like you!

I disagree that the fact that all caches have some amount of danger is off point since you are railing against a danger that is unbelievably minute. One would assume that if you are against caches that pose this very small amount of danger that you would be against those caches that pose greater danger.

Edited December 23, 2008 by sbell111

7.2k · December 23, 2008

I think there are far too many straw man and tangential arguments going on. Also, there seems to be a lot of "Google-knowledge" being tossed about.

The OP was talking about lamp posts and related equipment. He wasn't talking about climbing inside a sub-station or up high tension line towers. The voltages we're talking about as it relates to the subject at hand is a lot lower than 14k.

I'm not sure why there would be the need for explicit permission if you're creating your own fake electrical box. You bought the box and associated hardware. Simply get the adequate permission to place it and you're golden.

I wouldn't care if you did get explicit permission to put a cache inside a live box, you'd get an SBA on it from me and I'd be sending details to a reviewer. Putting it inside a live box is pretty stupid. And, no, that's not on par with putting it on the side of a cliff.

Putting a magnetic cache on a ground transformer is as safe as any other piece of equipment. No, I doubt you could get explicit permission from the power company to put on on there, but it's not about it being so dangerous. It's about liability and security. The company lawyers would never give a nod to a "civilian" to play around with a piece of equipment that, if safe guards failed, is potentially deadly. They wouldn't be able to sleep at night. On the security side, how is a cop supposed to know the difference, at a glance, between attaching a magnetic cache and vandalizing a public utility?

I do think some hiders are getting far away from the reason we hide caches. They think it's about hiding caches from each other when we actually hide caches from muggledom. While it is pretty cool to show off your skillz, there's no need in being so "tricky" that one needs a tester to see whether an electrical box is real or a cache. Our caches have only security through obscurity. The obscurity is hiding the cache from muggles' perception. There's no need for the inside of a fake electrical box to be complete with wiring.

Also, I don't think it appropriate for fake electrical boxes to go away as a viable cache hide. Just like micros, they have an place. If it looks like it belongs there and there's no other viable alternative, then it's appropriate.

7.2k · December 23, 2008

Personal responsibility only works for about 65% or so of the people...at best! Some really "need" to be watched out for...seriously!

I lean toward Libertarianism. While I do believe in a modicum of protection from predation, I tend to reject the need for a nanny. There's a major difference between protection from others and protection from ourselves.

It probably comes down to a "chicken or egg" issue. Do people need baby-sitting because they've never taken personal responsibility? Or are they simply too stupid to learn to fend for themselves and thus the need for that nanny?

1.4k · December 23, 2008

The OP was talking about lamp posts and related equipment. He wasn't talking about climbing inside a sub-station or up high tension line towers. The voltages we're talking about as it relates to the subject at hand is a lot lower than 14k.

The OP specifically mentioned

utility power transformers, utility power distribution boxes

and this is the aspect of the opening post I have been addressing.

If you are dealing with the utility secondary the voltage is 14K, not some other lower number that might be considered safe. It isn't high tension line towers that carry 14, 400 volts, it is the power line that runs through the neighborhood near your house. This isn't google knowledge, I work around this equipment every day. No electriic utility has ever, nor will they ever, give permission for a cache hidden on or attached to their distribution equipment. In Medicine Hat we don't have any lamp post caches but I know of one cache that is hidden on a power utility transformer.

People who deal with the distribution grid on a daily basis know that it is the most dangerous thing they will ever encounter, one mistake is often fatal and constant "awareness" training is intended to reduce the chance of a worker making the only mistake they will ever make.

Regardless of the testing we do when we go to work near this equipment we are constantly told we must never put ourselves "in the bite". We do not position ourselves in a way that would allow us to become part of the circuit or a route to ground. There is no way to "see" energized equipment that is why those working on or near the grid use testers. Electricians die just as quickly as cachers if they come onto contact with the secondary.

Cachers should never hide any cache or any any stage of a cache on any power utility equipment.

19k · December 23, 2008

"On average, 30 fatalities occur a year."

Kind of an eye opener, isn't it?

Yeah, it sure is. I had no idea they were so safe! That's only 30 in the entire country, right? All 50 states? Full 365 day years? <_<

Shock Danger of Electrified Objects (Lampposts, etc.) Revisited

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