Terrible cache hiders...

[+Vartan84]

TeamGeoblast said: If you are posting in this forum, you probably have some personal investment in Geocaching. It would be logical that most people want it to be the best it can be and flourish. For this to happen, the ambassadors of the game (us) need to spread the word about it to like minded individuals. So when you are describing this game to a friend how do you describe it as "a GPS treasure hunt where you seek innovative hides, interesting history, or great locations? Or do you say "It is a GPS game where you look for key holders and film canisters with scraps of paper in them?"

 

Exactly. Every time I find one like that I feel a little bit dumber for having spent whatever amount of time I did to do it. One feels great if they found a creative/fun hide but if you've spent a good deal of time to come up with something which literally took the least amount of effort possible (seriously, the recepit as the log??!) then it just makes me feel weird for doing it. If I hadn't been introducing to geocaching via some cool and fun caches and my early finds were merely those film can paper scrap ones, well... I mean seriously, if your early geocaching experience was spending a lot of time to find what essentially trash hidden under telephone boxes do you think you would have taken to this hobby and invested the time?

 

I really don't think anyone sets out to place a lame hide...and lameness is completely subjective anyway.

 

You have more faith in humanity than I do.

I totally agree with GeoBlast that for the reputation and long-term good of the hobby, not to mention cultivation of future good cachers, a good number of serious caches are vital. It's like the Roman Empire... one day it was at its height but it decayed and people got lazy and eventually it fell. I feel like if everyone just placed film can and lamp post hides the sport would decay. It'd breed future cachers who see this as the norm and with the great ones fewer and farther between people would begin to forget about what it really means to have a great caching experience.

Edited November 14, 2008 by Vartan84

[+Packanack]

Back in the day, when I was just a lad, I along with my 8 siblings learned a lesson from my father and mother---It went something like this: Dad works 70 hours per week to support the family, Mom works 70 hours per week to take care of the family. I sensed early on that there was no money for many things, I rode my sister's old bike afterall. So on my 10th, I got a bright red shiny new bike. I was overjoyed. At that time I learned gratitude. Even on the worst of days I look for something that gives me gratitude.

 

Every gift I have gotten since comes with a sincere thank you , even if the gift is somehow less than what I expected of wanted.

 

All cache hiders are giving a gift, say thank you and nothing but thank you. We all know some are not the best, but say thank you anyway, it does a person good.

[+Team GeoBlast]

Back in the day, when I was just a lad, I along with my 8 siblings learned a lesson from my father and mother---It went something like this: Dad works 70 hours per week to support the family, Mom works 70 hours per week to take care of the family. I sensed early on that there was no money for many things, I rode my sister's old bike afterall. So on my 10th, I got a bright red shiny new bike. I was overjoyed. At that time I learned gratitude. Even on the worst of days I look for something that gives me gratitude.

 

Every gift I have gotten since comes with a sincere thank you , even if the gift is somehow less than what I expected of wanted.

 

All cache hiders are giving a gift, say thank you and nothing but thank you. We all know some are not the best, but say thank you anyway, it does a person good.

 

The spirit of this post is undeniably solid but it missed the point I was trying to make. Instead of saying thank-you for a cache that you know took 10 minutes to place, how about asking that cacher to head out with you or directing them towards caches that might have taken much longer to place. I think the experience of finding caches like this is invaluable to most cachers. Some still won't get it, but I contend that most will. I also contend that a culture of education instead of one that is overly polite is better for the game.

 

I will offer softball as an analogy. If a team member (and do I consider Geocaching a collective team like effort) strikes out do you thank him for stepping up to the plate or help him adjust his grip on the bat?

Edited November 14, 2008 by Team GeoBlast

[+Renegade Knight]

...

I really don't think anyone sets out to place a lame hide...and lameness is completely subjective anyway.

 

You have more faith in humanity than I do.

I totally agree with GeoBlast that for the reputation and long-term good of the hobby, not to mention cultivation of future good cachers, a good number of serious caches are vital. It's like the Roman Empire... one day it was at its height but it decayed and people got lazy and eventually it fell. I feel like if everyone just placed film can and lamp post hides the sport would decay. It'd breed future cachers who see this as the norm and with the great ones fewer and farther between people would begin to forget about what it really means to have a great caching experience.

 

Most folks agree that the orginal caches met a higher standard that most of what we get now. Lame caches came from somewhere even with no examples to copy. Obviously that debunks any idea that caching would decay from copying decay. It can do that on it's own. Conversly from the ashes of Rome we ultimatly got the reinssaunce (even if I can't spell it).

 

I once set out to place a lame cache. I did my best to copy every single thing I hated in caching. You could call it a revenge cache. People liked it. I don't know why. I set out to be annoying and failed. I've set out to make a good cache and failed at that as well.

 

The caching world is variable. All angles will ebb and flow. Some people can't sing at all. They have fun doing so. No they will never get a recording contract but they can help liven the party. Everthing that you and TBG call "Lame" has a place. Maybe not in my GPS as a Waypoint, but a place none the less.

[+Team GeoBlast]

...

I really don't think anyone sets out to place a lame hide...and lameness is completely subjective anyway.

 

You have more faith in humanity than I do.

I totally agree with GeoBlast that for the reputation and long-term good of the hobby, not to mention cultivation of future good cachers, a good number of serious caches are vital. It's like the Roman Empire... one day it was at its height but it decayed and people got lazy and eventually it fell. I feel like if everyone just placed film can and lamp post hides the sport would decay. It'd breed future cachers who see this as the norm and with the great ones fewer and farther between people would begin to forget about what it really means to have a great caching experience.

 

Most folks agree that the orginal caches met a higher standard that most of what we get now. Lame caches came from somewhere even with no examples to copy. Obviously that debunks any idea that caching would decay from copying decay. It can do that on it's own. Conversly from the ashes of Rome we ultimatly got the reinssaunce (even if I can't spell it).

 

I once set out to place a lame cache. I did my best to copy every single thing I hated in caching. You could call it a revenge cache. People liked it. I don't know why. I set out to be annoying and failed. I've set out to make a good cache and failed at that as well.

 

The caching world is variable. All angles will ebb and flow. Some people can't sing at all. They have fun doing so. No they will never get a recording contract but they can help liven the party. Everthing that you and TBG call "Lame" has a place. Maybe not in my GPS as a Waypoint, but a place none the less.

 

One small correction. I never used the word lame nor was I intending to degrade anyone putting forth an honest and heartfelt effort to put out a good cache. What I was saying is that I think it is important to develop a geo-culture that doesn't view "the hide" as just another thing that you just "do." If the understanding that it is actually at the center of what we do and uniquely different than any other way that you can contribute to the game, more fun would be had by all. I include the hider in this too.

 

Going back to the OP (which I admit to straying from or at least suggesting a solution), who wants to be the cache hider that people are ignoring? Read back to the posts in this thread, it definitely happens. I seriously doubt if that the hider being ignored had the importance of a hide as it relates to the entire activity at the forefront of his consciousness when those caches were placed.

Edited November 14, 2008 by Team GeoBlast

[+ThePachecos]

The more I get involved with the game the more I see it like world of warcrack. I think of the hide by the road or the guard rail or the lamppost caches as level 1- 10 hides. As you start in warcraft you do some pretty stupid quests to learn the aspects of the game. I kind of think of those hides at wallymart and 7-11 and starbucks as those type of hides.. It gets you out and teaches you some aspects of the game without a great deal of effort. I dont know about yall but if my first experience with geocaching had been out in the middle of the woods with no knowledge about the gps and how it gets close to an area and then using the satelite screen or changing modes it might have been a little harder to get into the game. I also like the small ones for a quick fix when i am driving home after work. The real treasure hunters in this world dont always find golden goblets and jewels with every excavation.. Sometimes its just another clue or a skill added to finding the better treasure. Or an insight into the hiders mind.

[+Vartan84]

 

Lame caches came from somewhere even with no examples to copy. Obviously that debunks any idea that caching would decay from copying decay. It can do that on it's own.

 

Yes that's quite true but you can't use the fact that there will always be some terrible caches out of nowhere without copying to reject my arguement. There will always be exceptions- either they hear about geocaching and legitimately want to do their own cache and come up with their own new and exciting idea to just throw a film can out the window and track the coordinate/in a Burger King parking lot, or they hear about it and want to become a prolific cacher and so get their own idea to throw film cans out their window to game their number of caches, or they heard about geocaching and seriously don't care about exerting any effort what-so-ever and so put a receipt in a film can and throw it out the window. As you can see there are many motives for the same action that of course could all come from other methods than copying bad caches they see. I find those to be more of the exception though, while we have no actual figures for ever 1 person who gets the idea on their own to hide a cache under a lampskirt (when I found my first one I had never even really noticed lampost skirts or knew they were liftable) nine others get the idea from having done those caches themselves. Sure you could turn around and say I'm totally wrong with that number because I have no proof, which is true, but you have no proof either that it is the other way around. So we both have no way of proving our arguement but frankly I think we have to resort to the simplicity principle (Occams Razor) where the simplest explanation is most likely the right one. Either 9 out of 10 people discovered these things on their own or 9 out of 10 people learned it from others. There's always that 1 (or 2 or 3) who are the exception but the less of the copiers we have the less people we have learning from it.

 

(P.S.- I don't think I ever called a cache lame either as is being asserted but I could be wrong. I don't mean to insult all people who do these types of caches unless they truly have a bad motive for doing it. That said I think the "every cache is a good cache because they exist" notion is ridiculous. If geocaching is an art (which I believe it to be) then hides are like works of art. Do we say each piece of art is equal because someone bothered to make it? Of course not. That said you don't have to be an Old Master to make an intriguing or beautiful piece of art either. Different aspects of each cache can appeal to different people- hence those rare ones who are moved to tears by Wal-Mart parking lot hides- but those people are few and far between. I believe there is some sort of standard we can and should hold hides to for the sake of geoculture, as Team GeoBlast references. Comparing Renaissance and modern art make it clear they are totally different things, but that doesn't mean that they each can be equally cool in their own way, just like each cache is different and there isn't just one way for them to be great- refer to the list of attributes each hide should have at least one of earlier in the thread.)

Edited November 14, 2008 by Vartan84

[+ccwrestlechik105]

After you've been caching a while you begin to pick up on which caches are worth it just from looking at the page. There aren't any specific cachers that I ignore, but there are a few cachers that are constantly hiding in my area that I pay special attention to, especially Kit Fox, he's my hero

[+Packanack]

I guess we are lucky here in Northern New Jersey, we have no hiders who place insubstantial caches, in fact the quality of the hides is almost uniformly high I think I am the only one still hiding guardrail micros.

[+Team GeoBlast]

I guess we are lucky here in Northern New Jersey, we have no hiders who place insubstantial caches, in fact the quality of the hides is almost uniformly high I think I am the only one still hiding guardrail micros.

 

I'm equally as fortunate here in Hawaii. We have some amazing hiders. It is the geo-culture that I was raised in and I can see how it has spread to nearly everyone placing caches.

 

Do you mind if I ask about your guardrail micros? What is it that you want the finder to experience? Are you solely hiding for numbers?

Edited November 14, 2008 by Team GeoBlast

[+Renegade Knight]

 

Lame caches came from somewhere even with no examples to copy. Obviously that debunks any idea that caching would decay from copying decay. It can do that on it's own.

 

Yes that's quite true but you can't use the fact that there will always be some terrible caches out of nowhere without copying to reject my arguement. There will always be exceptions- either they hear about geocaching and legitimately want to do their own cache and come up with their own new and exciting idea to just throw a film can out the window and track the coordinate/in a Burger King parking lot, or they hear about it and want to become a prolific cacher and so get their own idea to throw film cans out their window to game their number of caches, or they heard about geocaching and seriously don't care about exerting any effort what-so-ever and so put a receipt in a film can and throw it out the window. ...

 

Two comments. Lame is my paraphrase for the larger concept of caches that any one cacher doens't like however they may choose to call it.

 

Motivation is personal. A lot of folks fall to the trap of assuming someone elses motivation. Numbers are almost always given as the example of a negative and unworthy motivation. We all place and find for the numbers the same way we put on our shoes. One at a time.

 

When one cacher had a desire to find or place a cache, at that time can you tell them from another cacher? Is the desire and enjoyment that both get out of it differnet?

[+Vartan84]

Numbers are almost always given as the example of a negative and unworthy motivation. We all place and find for the numbers the same way we put on our shoes. One at a time.

 

When one cacher had a desire to find or place a cache, at that time can you tell them from another cacher? Is the desire and enjoyment that both get out of it differnet?

 

I haven't placed any caches yet because I don't feel ready. I want my caches to be of a high quality so while I could easily drop a few now (there aren't any cache-crowded areas around me so I could drop one almost anywhere) and am sure that, at least in my area, it is the same for others because I mainly come across good ones and I have little evidence based on the nature of these hides that people in my area are dropping caches everywhere to get their numbers up. It is entirely conceivable and of course propbable that a good deal of people do not hide them just for numbers but because they want to.

 

Your question "Is the desire and enjoyment that both get out of it differnet?"

To me it seems in most cases that the these things are related. Of course it depends what kind of desire but if a placer has a geocaching tried-and-true desire to place the cache it is more likely that the finder will get true enjoyment out of it. The less desire to properly make and place a cache (but instead merely having the desire to place something for numbers sake) the less likely it is to give enjoyment to those finding it. I do believe that what you put into a cache will be reflected back to the finders. I'm sure everyone has found a cache with real love and thought poured into it by the hider and as the founder felt it themselves.

 

We cannot keep using those people who are absolutely in love with finding parking lot and phone box caches as our standard for the average geocacher, because while they are often referred to here as such I see little evidence that it is actually the case. That seems to be the way my arguements are being knocked down.

[+KBI]

I think hiders are giving back to the game whatever they can. Some people have more time, creativity or money to put into their hides and that's cool...but I've come to realize that even the keyholder under the payphone with the purchase receipt as the log sheet is someones way of trying to give back to the Geocaching community.

I agree with most everything you say here except for this one. There are a ton of ways to give back to Geocaching. You can leave great swag, write descriptive helpful logs, bring an extra dish or a cool raffle prize to a pot luck geo-event, hold an event, do maintenance on a cache that is not yours, help a new cacher out with a question on a geo-board, you could send a welcome note to a new cacher when you notice a single digit find count... this list is long.

Translation: "Don’t bother trying to participate unless you can do it in a way that is pleasing to me, regardless how many other cachers respond favorably to your cache hide."

 

(Nothing personal, TG; I’m just expressing how a response like this sounds from my point of view.)

[+KBI]

I will offer softball as an analogy. If a team member (and do I consider Geocaching a collective team like effort) strikes out do you thank him for stepping up to the plate or help him adjust his grip on the bat?

In order to conclude he needed help I would first have to assume, as a given premise, that his present bat grip is "incorrect."

 

If he's already getting hits (happily-worded 'Found It' logs) with his grip (cache hide) – assuming that was his goal – then who am I to argue with success?

[+Team GeoBlast]

We cannot keep using those people who are absolutely in love with finding parking lot and phone box caches as our standard for the average geocacher, because while they are often referred to here as such I see little evidence that it is actually the case. That seems to be the way my arguements are being knocked down.

 

One thing I have learned by posting here is that there's certainly different likes and dislikes when it comes to cache hides. You will find that there is a very strong contingent in this forum that will go to the end of the earth to argue that "any cache is a good cache" and ANY suggestion offered that we should devote time, effort, and energy into geocache hides is met with accusations of a feeling of entitlement or elitist and so on.

 

Overall, I do not think that this attitude is healthy for the game. I even question how long these type of players last anyway. While there are a handful of posters who defend everyone's right to place 500 of the same type hide in week where ever they please, I've very rarely encountered hiders that actually hide with numbers as their primary focus. I am hoping the Jersey Guardrail cacher will respond so I can learn more.

[+Packanack]

Do you mind if I ask about your guardrail micros? What is it that you want the finder to experience? Are you solely hiding for numbers?

 

Not at all, you may ask me almost anything.

 

. The last series just happened to be guardrail micros, one at a location where George Washington visited, slept, frequented, another where the cannon balls from the Continental Army were produced, another where Native Americans traversed what is known as the Minisink Trail, another was placed near a Revolutionary War Burial Ground , where soldiers reportedly were buried without markers and the burial ground was in disrepair--happily that one went to archive when a local boy scout whose troop caches decided that through geocaching they decided to clean it up.

 

GC1HWZM Another George Washington Micro in a needle park, and GC1HW4V

which was specifically hidden for a young kid who does not have a GPS, does not drive and had mentioned in the forums that his town had no caches. It lasted about 3 days before needing a re-think but the kid found it. Urban Micros are maint intense, but they provide some fun for people at lunch time or for a quick trip.

 

You can check my profile to see my hides, one of my micros Fair Ellen was actually Cache of the Month in the NNJC . What do I want cachers to experience, nothing but fun. I want cachers to enjoy their hobby, and how they enjoy it is not really my concern so much as they do enjoy it. I make it a point to rotate some of my inventory of hides so that cachers can get their numbers if they like. I have run some events just so we could get together. We started a hiking /social/ group which has continued for almost 2 years. We have kayaked, biked, hiked done a CITO and I like to think I make some contribution to the game.

 

We have some real nice folks locally, which dispells the typical notion of NJ.

[+Team GeoBlast]

Do you mind if I ask about your guardrail micros? What is it that you want the finder to experience? Are you solely hiding for numbers?

 

Not at all, you may ask me almost anything.

 

. The last series just happened to be guardrail micros, one at a location where George Washington visited, slept, frequented, another where the cannon balls from the Continental Army were produced, another where Native Americans traversed what is known as the Minisink Trail, another was placed near a Revolutionary War Burial Ground , where soldiers reportedly were buried without markers and the burial ground was in disrepair--happily that one went to archive when a local boy scout whose troop caches decided that through geocaching they decided to clean it up.

 

GC1HWZM Another George Washington Micro in a needle park, and GC1HW4V

which was specifically hidden for a young kid who does not have a GPS, does not drive and had mentioned in the forums that his town had no caches. It lasted about 3 days before needing a re-think but the kid found it. Urban Micros are maint intense, but they provide some fun for people at lunch time or for a quick trip.

 

You can check my profile to see my hides, one of my micros Fair Ellen was actually Cache of the Month in the NNJC . What do I want cachers to experience, nothing but fun. I want cachers to enjoy their hobby, and how they enjoy it is not really my concern so much as they do enjoy it. I make it a point to rotate some of my inventory of hides so that cachers can get their numbers if they like. I have run some events just so we could get together. We started a hiking /social/ group which has continued for almost 2 years. We have kayaked, biked, hiked done a CITO and I like to think I make some contribution to the game.

 

We have some real nice folks locally, which dispells the typical notion of NJ.

 

For the record these all are hides that I would love to find. They are clearly hides that are placed with planning and purpose. Speaking of Jersey folks, I just watched the Jets/Pats with a guy from Jersey yesterday. He was convinced that the Jets would blow the huge lead that they had and his conviction that this would happen was absolutely comical. Great guy.

 

So.. I continue to wonder where all of these numbers hiders are. While I have seen their work a lot of places and they somehow have a nucleolus of support here in the forum, I've never heard someone who does it defend it's merits.

Edited November 15, 2008 by Team GeoBlast

[+Team GeoBlast]

I think hiders are giving back to the game whatever they can. Some people have more time, creativity or money to put into their hides and that's cool...but I've come to realize that even the keyholder under the payphone with the purchase receipt as the log sheet is someones way of trying to give back to the Geocaching community.

I agree with most everything you say here except for this one. There are a ton of ways to give back to Geocaching. You can leave great swag, write descriptive helpful logs, bring an extra dish or a cool raffle prize to a pot luck geo-event, hold an event, do maintenance on a cache that is not yours, help a new cacher out with a question on a geo-board, you could send a welcome note to a new cacher when you notice a single digit find count... this list is long.

Translation: "Don’t bother trying to participate unless you can do it in a way that is pleasing to me, regardless how many other cachers respond favorably to your cache hide."

 

(Nothing personal, TG; I’m just expressing how a response like this sounds from my point of view.)

 

No offense taken. We've kicked this around enough that both of our viewpoints are very known. Although I don't understand your interpretation of mine, you are welcome to it and I respect your right to have it.

Edited November 15, 2008 by Team GeoBlast

[+Team GeoBlast]

I will offer softball as an analogy. If a team member (and do I consider Geocaching a collective team like effort) strikes out do you thank him for stepping up to the plate or help him adjust his grip on the bat?

In order to conclude he needed help I would first have to assume, as a given premise, that his present bat grip is "incorrect."

 

If he's already getting hits (happily-worded 'Found It' logs) with his grip (cache hide) – assuming that was his goal – then who am I to argue with success?

 

One clarification in this analogy is that the person striking out is being compared to the hiders described in this thread that are being ignored. So there is in fact a strike out. If the reason is technique, help can be offered and his team mates should be encouraged to help just as I am suggesting happen in Geocaching. If there is a lack of will or talent, that help will be a lot less effective.

 

For the record, I believe the batter that has no talent but has desire for the team to do well can still be a valuable player by working on another aspect of his game (reference other ways to contribute) such as defense.

Edited November 15, 2008 by Team GeoBlast

[Mr.Yuck]

Do you mind if I ask about your guardrail micros? What is it that you want the finder to experience? Are you solely hiding for numbers?

 

Not at all, you may ask me almost anything.

 

. The last series just happened to be guardrail micros, one at a location where George Washington visited, slept, frequented, another where the cannon balls from the Continental Army were produced, another where Native Americans traversed what is known as the Minisink Trail, another was placed near a Revolutionary War Burial Ground , where soldiers reportedly were buried without markers and the burial ground was in disrepair--happily that one went to archive when a local boy scout whose troop caches decided that through geocaching they decided to clean it up.

 

GC1HWZM Another George Washington Micro in a needle park, and GC1HW4V

which was specifically hidden for a young kid who does not have a GPS, does not drive and had mentioned in the forums that his town had no caches. It lasted about 3 days before needing a re-think but the kid found it. Urban Micros are maint intense, but they provide some fun for people at lunch time or for a quick trip.

 

You can check my profile to see my hides, one of my micros Fair Ellen was actually Cache of the Month in the NNJC . What do I want cachers to experience, nothing but fun. I want cachers to enjoy their hobby, and how they enjoy it is not really my concern so much as they do enjoy it. I make it a point to rotate some of my inventory of hides so that cachers can get their numbers if they like. I have run some events just so we could get together. We started a hiking /social/ group which has continued for almost 2 years. We have kayaked, biked, hiked done a CITO and I like to think I make some contribution to the game.

 

We have some real nice folks locally, which dispells the typical notion of NJ.

 

Well, I learned one thing from browsing your hides. You have a Lake named after you. That's amazing!

As a former frequent visitor to Central and northern NJ, I can verify (and Snat always says this too), that micromania has still, in 2008, not manifested itself. But they're coming. You can try to hold out as long as you can, but they're coming.

[Mr.Yuck]

 

So.. I continue to wonder where all of these numbers hiders are. While I have seen their work a lot of places and they somehow have a nucleolus of support here in the forum, I've never heard someone who does it defend it's merits.

 

Ya' got a point there TGB. Out of what I'll call the "Big Six" staunch defenders, and several lesser known ones I can think of, exactly zero of them have shown a propensity for prolifically tossing film canisters into fast food restaurant landscaping, or in the alley out back of the Supermarket!

 

I'm sure this is because these forums have a reputation with being incendiary, especially among those in the "numbers" or "quick grab" crowd. Which is absurd, in my opinion, seeing as I feel these forums are some of the most highly moderated pieces of fluff in all of internet messageboardom.

 

Except maybe for the UK forum, those cats are crazy over there.

[+Vartan84]

Do you mind if I ask about your guardrail micros? What is it that you want the finder to experience? Are you solely hiding for numbers?

 

. The last series just happened to be guardrail micros, one at a location where George Washington visited, slept, frequented, another where the cannon balls from the Continental Army were produced, another where Native Americans traversed what is known as the Minisink Trail, another was placed near a Revolutionary War Burial Ground , where soldiers reportedly were buried without markers and the burial ground was in disrepair--happily that one went to archive when a local boy scout whose troop caches decided that through geocaching they decided to clean it up.

 

GC1HWZM Another George Washington Micro in a needle park, and GC1HW4V

which was specifically hidden for a young kid who does not have a GPS, does not drive and had mentioned in the forums that his town had no caches. It lasted about 3 days before needing a re-think but the kid found it. Urban Micros are maint intense, but they provide some fun for people at lunch time or for a quick trip.

 

You can check my profile to see my hides, one of my micros Fair Ellen was actually Cache of the Month in the NNJC . What do I want cachers to experience, nothing but fun. I want cachers to enjoy their hobby, and how they enjoy it is not really my concern so much as they do enjoy it. I make it a point to rotate some of my inventory of hides so that cachers can get their numbers if they like. I have run some events just so we could get together. We started a hiking /social/ group which has continued for almost 2 years. We have kayaked, biked, hiked done a CITO and I like to think I make some contribution to the game.

 

We have some real nice folks locally, which dispells the typical notion of NJ.

 

Well Packanack you clearly break the mold of guardrail cachers. I think to sum up the position of us "elitist" cachers everyone should refer to Neos2's list of something every cache should have to make it worthwhile, found on page two of this thread. One of the options was having a historical connection or in an interesting place, another was that it should be easy enough for anyone wanting to take part to find. You clearly have met both of them with your examples. I am not against guardrail or lamppost caches themselves, sometimes that is all you can hide at the location- if that cache meets Neo2's criteria then I have no problem. My problem is just the ones found at a random fast food joint or empty parking lot with absolutely no significance or point to it, or ones just thrown out the window.

[+Team GeoBlast]

 

So.. I continue to wonder where all of these numbers hiders are. While I have seen their work a lot of places and they somehow have a nucleolus of support here in the forum, I've never heard someone who does it defend it's merits.

 

Ya' got a point there TGB. Out of what I'll call the "Big Six" staunch defenders, and several lesser known ones I can think of, exactly zero of them have shown a propensity for prolifically tossing film canisters into fast food restaurant landscaping, or in the alley out back of the Supermarket!

 

I'm sure this is because these forums have a reputation with being incendiary, especially among those in the "numbers" or "quick grab" crowd. Which is absurd, in my opinion, seeing as I feel these forums are some of the most highly moderated pieces of fluff in all of internet messageboardom.

 

Except maybe for the UK forum, those cats are crazy over there.

 

It's a credibility gap for the defenders if you ask me. There's a virtual boat load of cachers in this forum that will readily recite the merits of giving your best effort in hiding a geocache and as you say even the defenders will say that is not how they play the game themselves. I've never seen anyone with real life experience support it in person.

 

I'd better stop now or find myself deep into one of those familiar circular conversations. Thanks for listening.

[Mr.Yuck]

 

So.. I continue to wonder where all of these numbers hiders are. While I have seen their work a lot of places and they somehow have a nucleolus of support here in the forum, I've never heard someone who does it defend it's merits.

 

Ya' got a point there TGB. Out of what I'll call the "Big Six" staunch defenders, and several lesser known ones I can think of, exactly zero of them have shown a propensity for prolifically tossing film canisters into fast food restaurant landscaping, or in the alley out back of the Supermarket!

 

I'm sure this is because these forums have a reputation with being incendiary, especially among those in the "numbers" or "quick grab" crowd. Which is absurd, in my opinion, seeing as I feel these forums are some of the most highly moderated pieces of fluff in all of internet messageboardom.

 

Except maybe for the UK forum, those cats are crazy over there.

 

It's a credibility gap for the defenders if you ask me. There's a virtual boat load of cachers in this forum that will readily recite the merits of giving your best effort in hiding a geocache and as you say even the defenders will say that is not how they play the game themselves. I've never seen anyone with real life experience support it in person.

 

I'd better stop now or find myself deep into one of those familiar circular conversations. Thanks for listening.

 

No problem TGB. Of course I'll defend my statement, but I'm not looking for a circular conversation either. Unless Mushtang wants to go out and hide 15 caches in parking lots this weekend called "Quick Grab #1-15".

[+KBI]

So.. I continue to wonder where all of these numbers hiders are. While I have seen their work a lot of places and they somehow have a nucleolus of support here in the forum, I've never heard someone who does it defend it's merits.

Ya' got a point there TGB. Out of what I'll call the "Big Six" staunch defenders, and several lesser known ones I can think of, exactly zero of them have shown a propensity for prolifically tossing film canisters into fast food restaurant landscaping, or in the alley out back of the Supermarket!

It's a credibility gap for the defenders if you ask me.

That’s an interesting bit of logic. A person defends a practice as being benign and acceptable, maybe even worthy, yet doesn’t participate in that practice himself ... therefore his viewpoint is invalid?

 

I don’t read People Magazine. I don’t read it because I don’t like it. Does that mean I’m automatically lying if I dare to suggest it’s fine with me that others like to read it? I never pick one up, therefore I have no credibility regarding the acceptability of the act of reading a People Magazine – am I right?

 

Sorry TGB, but one’s mere lack of participation in an activity does not automatically harm the credibility of any opinion one might have about it.

 

As for your own credibility, I suggest you lay off attacking others for their opinions and instead work on convincingly explaining the rationale behind your own. Sharing your thinking and allowing others to consider for themselves what they think of your reasoning is a much better way to sell an idea than launching fallacious attacks on those with whom you disagree, attacks that might make you sound insecure and defensive.

[+Team GeoBlast]

Sorry TGB, but one’s mere lack of participation in an activity does not automatically harm the credibility of any opinion one might have about it.

 

Well combine it with the fact that nobody that actually participates is willing to defend it, it appears to me that you are defending a phantom. If can't see it as odd that NOBODY steps forward to say "yeah, I stand behind that and this is why," then we can just agree to disagree and move forward.

 

As for your own credibility, I suggest you lay off attacking others for their opinions and instead work on convincingly explaining the rationale behind your own. Sharing your thinking and allowing others to consider for themselves what they think of your reasoning is a much better way to sell an idea than launching fallacious attacks on those with whom you disagree, attacks that might make you sound insecure and defensive.

 

How hard do I need to work really? It's not like I am trying convince anyone that I had a beer with a guy from Venus or something. I'm merely suggesting that a Geocache hide is the center of our activity and that as much importance on doing it to the best of our ability is critical to the game. Is that really that far out there? Feel free to check the logs on any of my hides. I practice what I preach, there's no greater credibility than that.

Edited November 15, 2008 by Team GeoBlast

[+KBI]

Sorry TGB, but one’s mere lack of participation in an activity does not automatically harm the credibility of any opinion one might have about it.

Well combine it with the fact that nobody that actually participates is willing to defend it, it appears to me that you are defending a phantom. If can't see it as odd that NOBODY steps forward to say "yeah, I stand behind that and this is why," then we can just agree to disagree and move forward.

Actually there have been plenty of people, in this thread and others, who have explained their reasons for hiding their specific preferred type of hide. I have seen many of those posts; you may not have seen them, or may have chosen reject them for some reason.

 

Besides, it depends on exactly what you mean: Nobody is ever likely going to describe his own simple drive-up micro with the actual word "lame" – if that’s what you’re asking for.

 

Words like "terrible," as in the thread title, when used to describe undesired caches, only represent the subjective opinions of others like you who happen to have a different aesthetic preference from that owner.

 

Look at it this way: I see your point of view itself as sounding entitled and whiny. That is my subjective impression. Would you ever describe your own opinion as "entitled," or "whiny?" Would you actually use those words? Would anybody? If nobody, then, ever steps forward to proclaim "Here is why I whine about my feeling of entitlement to better caches," then does that invalidate your viewpoint? I would say no, but you apparently use a very different logic from me.

 

As for your own credibility, I suggest you lay off attacking others for their opinions and instead work on convincingly explaining the rationale behind your own. Sharing your thinking and allowing others to consider for themselves what they think of your reasoning is a much better way to sell an idea than launching fallacious attacks on those with whom you disagree, attacks that might make you sound insecure and defensive.

How hard do I need to work really? It's not like I am trying convince anyone that I had a beer with a guy from Venus or something.

No, it's not. I agree. That would be a very different conversation.

 

The problem with that analogy is that the alien/beer meeting is OBjective information – it is either a fact, or it isn't – while your opinion regarding cache preference is a SUBjective opinion.

 

Convincing others to accept your personal subjective impression requires an entirely different type of argument that proving whether an alleged event took place. Proving you were drinking with the Venusian requires mere facts. Convincing me instead that Venusian ale is "lame" requires persuasive rhetoric – rhetoric which will likely fail if you poo-poo my own opinion after having tasted the ale myself.

 

I'm merely suggesting that a Geocache hide is the center of our activity and that as much importance on doing it to the best of our ability is critical to the game. Is that really that far out there? Feel free to check the logs on any of my hides. I practice what I preach, there's no greater credibility than that.

The suggestion, and the practice, are fine.

 

For you to claim, however, that "ANY suggestion offered that we should devote time, effort, and energy into geocache hides is met with accusations of a feeling of entitlement or elitist and so on" is a distortion of history. Despite your assertions to the contrary, nobody in these threads has ever objected to polite requests for better uniqueness and creativity. It is when you present your personal creativity preference as the only acceptable, or "proper," preference that you lose authority with your target audience.

 

Even if you should ever find your self in the position of needing to convince others you had a beer with a guy from Venus, it does your case no good to badmouth the doubters. Why not just explain your reasons, and then let others decide for themselves?

[+DanOCan]

Lame caches came from somewhere even with no examples to copy.

 

Well, I think that it is the copying that makes the lameness.

 

One of the first micros I found was a film canister in a tree. I thought it was the coolest thing I had seen. The tenth time? Not so much.

 

A local cacher found a great trail leading to a secluded area along the river. That was really cool. Then it seemed like every cacher who went to find that cache placed one of their own along the same trail By the time the trail was saturated many of those caches had lost their appeal.

 

Someone places a really tricky hide. It's cool. All the copycat caches come along and it's "not so much".

 

I'm sure the first person to hide a cache under a lamppost in a Wal-mart parking lot amazed the locals with their creativity. Now...

[+Team GeoBlast]

Sorry TGB, but one’s mere lack of participation in an activity does not automatically harm the credibility of any opinion one might have about it.

Well combine it with the fact that nobody that actually participates is willing to defend it, it appears to me that you are defending a phantom. If can't see it as odd that NOBODY steps forward to say "yeah, I stand behind that and this is why," then we can just agree to disagree and move forward.

Actually there have been plenty of people, in this thread and others, who have explained their reasons for hiding their specific preferred type of hide. I have seen many of those posts; you may not have seen them, or may have chosen reject them for some reason.

 

Besides, it depends on exactly what you mean: Nobody is ever likely going to describe his own simple drive-up micro with the actual word "lame" – if that’s what you’re asking for.

 

Words like "terrible," as in the thread title, when used to describe undesired caches, only represent the subjective opinions of others like you who happen to have a different aesthetic preference from that owner.

 

Look at it this way: I see your point of view itself as sounding entitled and whiny. That is my subjective impression. Would you ever describe your own opinion as "entitled," or "whiny?" Would you actually use those words? Would anybody? If nobody, then, ever steps forward to proclaim "Here is why I whine about my feeling of entitlement to better caches," then does that invalidate your viewpoint? I would say no, but you apparently use a very different logic from me.

 

As for your own credibility, I suggest you lay off attacking others for their opinions and instead work on convincingly explaining the rationale behind your own. Sharing your thinking and allowing others to consider for themselves what they think of your reasoning is a much better way to sell an idea than launching fallacious attacks on those with whom you disagree, attacks that might make you sound insecure and defensive.

How hard do I need to work really? It's not like I am trying convince anyone that I had a beer with a guy from Venus or something.

No, it's not. I agree. That would be a very different conversation.

 

The problem with that analogy is that the alien/beer meeting is OBjective information – it is either a fact, or it isn't – while your opinion regarding cache preference is a SUBjective opinion.

 

Convincing others to accept your personal subjective impression requires an entirely different type of argument that proving whether an alleged event took place. Proving you were drinking with the Venusian requires mere facts. Convincing me instead that Venusian ale is "lame" requires persuasive rhetoric – rhetoric which will likely fail if you poo-poo my own opinion after having tasted the ale myself.

 

I'm merely suggesting that a Geocache hide is the center of our activity and that as much importance on doing it to the best of our ability is critical to the game. Is that really that far out there? Feel free to check the logs on any of my hides. I practice what I preach, there's no greater credibility than that.

The suggestion, and the practice, are fine.

 

For you to claim, however, that "ANY suggestion offered that we should devote time, effort, and energy into geocache hides is met with accusations of a feeling of entitlement or elitist and so on" is a distortion of history. Despite your assertions to the contrary, nobody in these threads has ever objected to polite requests for better uniqueness and creativity. It is when you present your personal creativity preference as the only acceptable, or "proper," preference that you lose authority with your target audience.

 

Even if you should ever find your self in the position of needing to convince others you had a beer with a guy from Venus, it does your case no good to badmouth the doubters. Why not just explain your reasons, and then let others decide for themselves?

 

KBI, it is not this complicated. I don't agree with your viewpoint. I don't think it benefits the game as a whole. I have the right to say so and I did. Just the same as you have the right to call me an elitist if you feel you need to. Please don't take it personally because it is not intended that way.

[+The Leprechauns]

So.. I continue to wonder where all of these numbers hiders are. While I have seen their work a lot of places and they somehow have a nucleolus of support here in the forum, I've never heard someone who does it defend it's merits.

They're out hiding lots of geocaches, and finding lots of caches. They're attending events and having fun with the other cachers who find the caches they hide. They're talking about geocaching in local and regional forums. They learned long ago that it's simply not fun to participate in a forum thread where their practices and preferences are under attack. They concentrate instead on doing things that are fun for them.

[+BoggyWoggy]

Snobs. There's something in this for everyone.

However, there's this one cacher in our area who hides GARBAGE caches and I now avoid his hides. I thought I was the only one irritated by him, until I overheard a friend say, "Oh, I HATE his trashy caches!" Suddenly, the clouds parted and and sun shone down on my cheek as I felt the overwhelming urge to cry out, "Yes! Yes! Yes! That's how I feel!!!"

One of his trashiest caches refers to the term "quickies." Ugh. It's placed inside an old newspaper machine alongside the ickiest little quicky-mart in one of the ickiest neighborhoods of a neighboring town. I made the mistake of thinking, "Maybe this one will be funny, or something..." UGH! What a waste!

So, now, to cope, I ignore his caches when I run a query...and my life is so much better!

[+Team GeoBlast]

So.. I continue to wonder where all of these numbers hiders are. While I have seen their work a lot of places and they somehow have a nucleolus of support here in the forum, I've never heard someone who does it defend it's merits.

They're out hiding lots of geocaches, and finding lots of caches. They're attending events and having fun with the other cachers who find the caches they hide. They're talking about geocaching in local and regional forums. They learned long ago that it's simply not fun to participate in a forum thread where their practices and preferences are under attack. They concentrate instead on doing things that are fun for them.

 

Thanks for the report of what they are doing out there Leprechauns. It is comforting to know that it is all legal and relatively harmless.

 

Are you a numbers hider?

[+KBI]

Someone places a really tricky hide. It's cool. All the copycat caches come along and it's "not so much".

It’s a bit like those jokes that go around. And around. And around.

Two buddies hunting in the woods. One guy stoops down and gets bit right in the butt cheek by a rattlesnake. As he rubs his butt worrying aloud whether the bite is fatal, his friend quickly uses his cell phone to call a doctor.

 

The doctor explains that the only effective first aid will be for the friend to immediately put his mouth on the skin, directly on the snakebite, and suck out every drop of the venom – otherwise the bite will most likely be fatal. Friend thanks Doctor and hangs up.

 

Bite victim: "So what’d the doctor say?"

 

Friend: "Sorry dude. Doctor says you’re gonna die."

The first time I heard that joke it was funny.

 

The second time it was still worth listening to.

 

By the fifteenth time it was thoroughly, painfully, agonizingly ... lame. But not to the other guy with me who was hearing it for the first time. He laughed heartily. It wasn’t lame to him at all.

 

Most peole don't write original material for jokes. They just pass them on. Why? Because they like hearing them, and they like telling them. Some people are also better at telling jokes than others. When I hear that joke for the sixteenth time I’ll probably smile tolerantly and say "Yep, that’s a good one." Unless I see it coming, in which case I'll try to avoid it.

 

Unless I happen to be in the mood, as I am sometilmes, for any conversation at all, even if it's just a worn out old joke.

 

Jokes aren’t lame. Caches aren’t lame. Lame is in the eye of the beholder.

[+KBI]

KBI, it is not this complicated. I don't agree with your viewpoint. I don't think it benefits the game as a whole. I have the right to say so and I did. Just the same as you have the right to call me an elitist if you feel you need to. Please don't take it personally because it is not intended that way.

Very reasonable. Personal offense neither intended nor taken.

 

All I ask is that you not misrepresent the viewpoints of those with whom you disagree. That's not asking so much, is it?

[+Snoogans]

Jokes aren’t lame. Caches aren’t lame. Lame is in the eye of the beholder.

 

Give up. I did....mostly. Some folks will never stop hoping the game will bend over backward to please them.

 

You and I both know that a cache is a cache is a cache. We validate each other's opinion.

 

The lamecallers will validate each other's opinions and so on.

 

It reminds me of the Story about the North-Going Zax and the South-Going Zax who bump into each other in their respictive tracks.

 

I'm getting tired of being a Zax.

 

Edited November 16, 2008 by Snoogans

[+TrailGators]

Someone places a really tricky hide. It's cool. All the copycat caches come along and it's "not so much".

It's a bit like those jokes that go around. And around. And around.

Two buddies hunting in the woods. One guy stoops down and gets bit right in the butt cheek by a rattlesnake. As he rubs his butt worrying aloud whether the bite is fatal, his friend quickly uses his cell phone to call a doctor.

 

The doctor explains that the only effective first aid will be for the friend to immediately put his mouth on the skin, directly on the snakebite, and suck out every drop of the venom – otherwise the bite will most likely be fatal. Friend thanks Doctor and hangs up.

 

Bite victim: "So what'd the doctor say?"

 

Friend: "Sorry dude. Doctor says you're gonna die."

The first time I heard that joke it was funny.

 

The second time it was still worth listening to.

 

By the fifteenth time it was thoroughly, painfully, agonizingly ... lame. But not to the other guy with me who was hearing it for the first time. He laughed heartily. It wasn't lame to him at all.

 

That joke sucks! Just kidding! Actually it's still funny to me. I see the point you are trying to make, but the bottom line is that some jokes are just not funny. Look for people rolling their eyes to tell if your joke was not funny. Typically, if you get this reaction: , then you look for better jokes to tell. That's the way that jokes work with most people..... Edited November 16, 2008 by TrailGators

[Mr.Yuck]

So.. I continue to wonder where all of these numbers hiders are. While I have seen their work a lot of places and they somehow have a nucleolus of support here in the forum, I've never heard someone who does it defend it's merits.

They're out hiding lots of geocaches, and finding lots of caches. They're attending events and having fun with the other cachers who find the caches they hide. They're talking about geocaching in local and regional forums. They learned long ago that it's simply not fun to participate in a forum thread where their practices and preferences are under attack. They concentrate instead on doing things that are fun for them.

 

Man, everyone is down on TGB! What, for making an observation that "numbers" cachers don't post here? That has been obvious for quite some time. Maybe they're busy out hiding and finding caches in parking lots that don't meet the guidelines, but are approved anyways. God forbid they'd be out there hiding and seeking caches placed in State Parks without a permit.

[+Too Tall John]

So.. I continue to wonder where all of these numbers hiders are...

I couldn't help myself...

[+Team GeoBlast]

So.. I continue to wonder where all of these numbers hiders are. While I have seen their work a lot of places and they somehow have a nucleolus of support here in the forum, I've never heard someone who does it defend it's merits.

They're out hiding lots of geocaches, and finding lots of caches. They're attending events and having fun with the other cachers who find the caches they hide. They're talking about geocaching in local and regional forums. They learned long ago that it's simply not fun to participate in a forum thread where their practices and preferences are under attack. They concentrate instead on doing things that are fun for them.

 

Man, everyone is down on TGB! What, for making an observation that "numbers" cachers don't post here? That has been obvious for quite some time. Maybe they're busy out hiding and finding caches in parking lots that don't meet the guidelines, but are approved anyways. God forbid they'd be out there hiding and seeking caches placed in State Parks without a permit.

 

Not everyone, just the phantom defenders. It is to be expected at this stage of a thread as the big six are known to have superior endurance and a much better nose for a dog pile than the rest of us.

[+Team GeoBlast]

KBI, it is not this complicated. I don't agree with your viewpoint. I don't think it benefits the game as a whole. I have the right to say so and I did. Just the same as you have the right to call me an elitist if you feel you need to. Please don't take it personally because it is not intended that way.

Very reasonable. Personal offense neither intended nor taken.

 

All I ask is that you not misrepresent the viewpoints of those with whom you disagree. That's not asking so much, is it?

 

I guess but it is important to consider the mutual challenge that this presents. I struggle to understand your viewpoint and I know you miss mine completely. It's just a no win situation.

[+KBI]

It's just a no win situation.

This isn’t a competition. It’s just a learning discussion. The only prize is greater understanding – and the only route to that prize is an open mind.

[+Team GeoBlast]

It's just a no win situation.

This isn’t a competition. It’s just a learning discussion. The only prize is greater understanding – and the only route to that prize is an open mind.

 

Very well said.

[+The Leprechauns]

So.. I continue to wonder where all of these numbers hiders are. While I have seen their work a lot of places and they somehow have a nucleolus of support here in the forum, I've never heard someone who does it defend it's merits.

They're out hiding lots of geocaches, and finding lots of caches. They're attending events and having fun with the other cachers who find the caches they hide. They're talking about geocaching in local and regional forums. They learned long ago that it's simply not fun to participate in a forum thread where their practices and preferences are under attack. They concentrate instead on doing things that are fun for them.

 

Thanks for the report of what they are doing out there Leprechauns. It is comforting to know that it is all legal and relatively harmless.

 

Are you a numbers hider?

If you took the time to click on my profile link, you'd see that over the past seven years I've hidden around 40 caches under my personal account, including two this past year. I also co-own the DeLorme and All County Challenge caches in my state. While I don't hide a lot of caches, I'd like to think that the ones I do hide are all hidden for a good reason.

 

The topic of this thread asks whether anyone ignores all of another person's cache hides. I'm unaware of any active cacher on this site who ignores all my cache hides. If those persons exist, they haven't made a big deal of it. I don't make a big deal out of the handful of cachers whose hides I ignore, either.

 

I have friends who are the leading cache hiders in the states where I do most of my finding. They have 200, 500, even 700 cache hides. They're wonderful people. I understand their motivation and I'm happy to see them having fun. We just have different hiding styles.

[Mr.Yuck]

So.. I continue to wonder where all of these numbers hiders are...

I couldn't help myself...

 

I found my first official Snoogans' ODS film canister a few months ago and shockingly, the world didn't stop spinning on it's axis! Sure, it was a roadside hide, but it was in a pretty nice area.

[+Team GeoBlast]

So.. I continue to wonder where all of these numbers hiders are. While I have seen their work a lot of places and they somehow have a nucleolus of support here in the forum, I've never heard someone who does it defend it's merits.

They're out hiding lots of geocaches, and finding lots of caches. They're attending events and having fun with the other cachers who find the caches they hide. They're talking about geocaching in local and regional forums. They learned long ago that it's simply not fun to participate in a forum thread where their practices and preferences are under attack. They concentrate instead on doing things that are fun for them.

 

Thanks for the report of what they are doing out there Leprechauns. It is comforting to know that it is all legal and relatively harmless.

 

Are you a numbers hider?

If you took the time to click on my profile link, you'd see that over the past seven years I've hidden around 40 caches under my personal account, including two this past year. I also co-own the DeLorme and All County Challenge caches in my state. While I don't hide a lot of caches, I'd like to think that the ones I do hide are all hidden for a good reason.

 

The topic of this thread asks whether anyone ignores all of another person's cache hides. I'm unaware of any active cacher on this site who ignores all my cache hides. If those persons exist, they haven't made a big deal of it. I don't make a big deal out of the handful of cachers whose hides I ignore, either.

 

I have friends who are the leading cache hiders in the states where I do most of my finding. They have 200, 500, even 700 cache hides. They're wonderful people. I understand their motivation and I'm happy to see them having fun. We just have different hiding styles.

 

No I didn't check your profile. I just figured since you knew so much about what the number hiders were currently up to, that you had inside information.

[+KBI]

I just figured since you knew so much about what the number hiders were currently up to, that you had inside information.

He does. Haven’t you been reading his posts? He’s been answering your question over and over.

[+Team GeoBlast]

I just figured since you knew so much about what the number hiders were currently up to, that you had inside information.

He does. Haven’t you been reading his posts? He’s been answering your question over and over.

 

Sigh.

 

Yes he gave a very informed and detailed account of why the numbers hiders never post here. Probably the best information that I've seen and that is why I asked the question. I was hoping he was speaking from first hand experience so I could have a friendly and productive conversation with someone that actually practices this, instead of a defender. Again, no offense but sometimes you grow a little weary of second hand information.

[+tozainamboku]

Lame caches came from somewhere even with no examples to copy.

 

Well, I think that it is the copying that makes the lameness.

 

One of the first micros I found was a film canister in a tree. I thought it was the coolest thing I had seen. The tenth time? Not so much.

 

A local cacher found a great trail leading to a secluded area along the river. That was really cool. Then it seemed like every cacher who went to find that cache placed one of their own along the same trail By the time the trail was saturated many of those caches had lost their appeal.

 

Someone places a really tricky hide. It's cool. All the copycat caches come along and it's "not so much".

 

I'm sure the first person to hide a cache under a lamppost in a Wal-mart parking lot amazed the locals with their creativity. Now...

Others, perhaps not DanOCan, claim that lameness will go away or at least be reduced if they "lead by example" and place caches they feel are worthy. The idea being that the people hiding lame caches will see these "better" caches and start to copy them. But you say that when they copy a cache it becomes lame. So which is it? Does a cache have to be 100% orginal to not be lame? We are not all creative geniuses. We can not all be Leonardo. Yet many like to paint. They may do a paint by numbers of the last supper or they may paint something original that looks crude or childish next to a work by a master. Perhaps you are expecting too much from the average cacher. If you owned a art supply store would would refuse to sell paint and canvass to a hobbyist because they couldn't paint to your standards? So why ask Groundspeak to stop listing caches of peoples whose hides don't meet your standards?

Edited November 16, 2008 by tozainamboku

[Mr.Yuck]

Lame caches came from somewhere even with no examples to copy.

 

Well, I think that it is the copying that makes the lameness.

 

One of the first micros I found was a film canister in a tree. I thought it was the coolest thing I had seen. The tenth time? Not so much.

 

A local cacher found a great trail leading to a secluded area along the river. That was really cool. Then it seemed like every cacher who went to find that cache placed one of their own along the same trail By the time the trail was saturated many of those caches had lost their appeal.

 

Someone places a really tricky hide. It's cool. All the copycat caches come along and it's "not so much".

 

I'm sure the first person to hide a cache under a lamppost in a Wal-mart parking lot amazed the locals with their creativity. Now...

Others, perhaps not DanOCan, claim that lameness will go away or at least be reduced if they "lead by example" and place caches they feel are worthy. The idea being that the people hiding lame caches will see these "better" caches and start to copy them. But you say that when they copy a cache it becomes lame. So which is it? Does a cache have to be 100% orginal to not be lame? We are not all creative geniuses. We can not all be Leonardo. Yet many like to paint. They may do a paint by numbers of the last supper or they may paint something original that looks crude or childish next to a work by a master. Perhaps you are expecting too much from the average cacher. If you owned a art supply store would would refuse to sell paint and canvass to a hobbyist because they couldn't paint to your standards? So why ask Groundspeak to stop listing caches of peoples whose hides don't meet your standards?

 

"lead by example" doesn't work. Plain, and simple. It just means that your caches will be visited less often than the one in the parking lot. Jeesh, where has TBG stated he wants Groundspeak to stop listing those caches that don't meet his standards?

[+Vartan84]

But you say that when they copy a cache it becomes lame. So which is it? Does a cache have to be 100% orginal to not be lame? We are not all creative geniuses. We can not all be Leonardo... If you owned a art supply store would would refuse to sell paint and canvass to a hobbyist because they couldn't paint to your standards? So why ask Groundspeak to stop listing caches of peoples whose hides don't meet your standards?

 

And that is why once again I defer to Neos2's list of attributes every cache should meet at least one of. I in no way think any cache which isn't a work of art is lame, and there is more to the experience of the find than just the cache itself. Besides the container there is also at least the location, perhaps the puzzle, the way to get there, and much more. There are numerous aspects of the experience which can make a cache good if not great, and no one says every one has to be great. Heck I'll even allow that there is room on the site for some of those more "worthless" ones as well. While some people say I'm a cache snob and that I have impossibly high standards, some parts of that list have nothing to do at all with ones ability to make a puzzle or an artistic camo. I don't think every hide should take 50 hours for someone to devise, create, and hide but I do think it should take some basic thought beyond buying a film can at a store, stuffing the receipt inside and throwing it in the bushes before getting in your car and driving off. If a cache takes less than one minute from conception to completion that is a sign it isn't going to provide much joy to the finder. I can't say that everyone will hate it because while we don't have any here to interview I am sure a few people just love getting their numbers up so much that they are happy to find any and every cache, but the vast majority will not be happy with it I'm sure, especially if they drove an hour just to get it. I know I've felt much stupider and disappointed for wasting far less time for an hour to drive to a cache which ended up being "lame".

 

I think we all need some kind of balance here. I might be biased but I don't think us cache snobs are asking the average cacher for a heck of a lot here if you take a look at that list and realize how easy it is to fit at least one of those points. In return I think the cache egalitarians need to take a step back and stop ganging up on us for merely suggesting all caches are created equal. Continuing to use excuses like "not everyone is amazing or creative" or "a lot of people LIKE film-can-thrown-out-the-window caches" or just feeling plain old moralistic disgust at cache snobbery is not being fair to the other side's arguement. While I know it is important to be respectful of all cachers and not be "snobs" at the same time we can't say all caches are equally good and important in the name of maintaining that respect. Nobody says respect and logic can't co-exist.