Terrible cache hiders...

[+KBI]

The last thing I am trying to do is a pick a fight. On the contrary, I'm trying to better understand this ongoing tiff that never seems to yield any progress in this forum. When you put your viewpoint out on creativity, I could really find very little to disagree with. I'm thinking to myself, this doesn't even appear to be the other side of the debate to me and it is not far off my own viewpoint in almost every respect. It got me thinking about why after over a thousand posts in here, why progress is so hard to come by. You mentioned earlier that perhaps the result is some better understanding not a win or a lose when it comes to these discussions. I'm being to wonder at some point, we all don't lose when the attempt to understand each other ceases.

 

That is really all that was on my mind, at what point do we stop listening to each other and engage in a food fight as TG so eloquently described it.

Well, since you ask:

 

In my opinion that point occurred when you and others decided to demonize your opposition by assigning silly and groundless viewpoints to them ("Those guys hate creativity!") instead of straightforwardly debating their actual statements (We are merely tolerant of lameness. We don’t promote it).

 

I said I was bored like two pages ago when you, Snoogans, Isbell, Mushtang, et al started to focus so intently on the minute details of my personal definition of a numbers hider. That level of a pack "discussion" is really never going to lead anywhere and at some point greater understanding takes a back seat to trying to get one over on the other poster.

You were the one who asked the question.

 

There are certain caches you dislike. You asked what the ultimate motivations were behind the hiding of those caches. Several experienced and knowledgeable cachers proceeded to provide polite and thoughtful answers, all of which were perfectly accurate in my opinion – yet you blew off every one of those responses, claiming that only the actual hiders of such caches were eligible to respond to you. When one of those hiders stepped up and offered to answer, however, you blew him off too. I can’t speak for others, but I have to say at that point I was beginning to doubt the sincerity of your original question.

 

Ironically then, after you got done pounding home the point that only the person holding the viewpoint can speak for his viewpoint – you turned around and start pestering me to speak for your viewpoint.

 

Which is it, TGB? Is it okay for me to speak for others, or isn’t it?

 

If you don’t like the combativeness, then please look at that recent sequence of events from the point of view of those with whom you disagree. At one point you even described my posts as a "hissy fit." Can't you see why folks get frustrated?

 

I usually don't like to participate when it gets to this stage of the discussion for a variety of reasons but mostly, I don't think much mutual understanding or even benefit is realized. I guess the only reason I am still here two pages later is to try to understand why things go so south sometimes.

I don’t think things are nearly as far south as you say.

 

Here are two adjacent sentences I pulled from your post. I have not changed the sequence:

I'm trying to better understand this ongoing tiff that never seems to yield any progress in this forum. When you put your viewpoint out on creativity, I could really find very little to disagree with.

The first statement laments lack of progress, yet the second statement not only acknowledges substantial progress – it almost celebrates it!

 

So what’s the problem?

 

I don’t think you’re a bad guy, TGB. As usual I take none of this personally, and neither do I intend personal offence to anyone.

 

You have now acknowledged that your opinion and mine are very similar – therefore I ask again: Do you still have a problem with something specific I have said?

 

If yes, then please name the specific.

 

If no, then please shake my virtual hand and let’s part ways, both of us smiling quietly yet knowingly about our very similar, very worthy and very defendable viewpoints.

[+Team GeoBlast]

::Warning this is OT::

 

Has the game improved? Definitely in many ways, but specifically to cache hides - yes and no. The game is still about finding a hidden container, that hasn't changed.

 

I agree with this but I'll just add to it by saying that one thing that has not changed is that single most important aspect of Geocaching is the hide. Without it, you can't play. It is at the core of what we do as Geocachers.

 

I remember when micro's were first being hidden (and they were film cans, the smaller stuff came later) and how hard they seemed (which was the idea - you rarely saw one rated less than 3*) and the 'joy' when you found one. Now, bison tubes are hidden with a 1* rating and film cans are looked upon with disgust (or so it seems). So, changed - yes; improved - ?? Lot's of different ways to hide the container is a plus, but it's still a hidden container that I get to find with my GPSr.

 

I don't go back far enough to remember this I'm interested when you describe the "joy" when you first found a micro. Good or bad, this was a change or an innovation depending on where you stand on it and I can't say that Geocaching has changed to that degree since I started. Is this the last major innovation we will ever see in Geocaching? Or does the game even need more innovation might be a fair question. I'm interested in what you think about this having been around when micros were new and how you reacted to the change.

 

Advice. I rarely give it about cache hides - and then only when I'm asked specifically.

 

Is this because you don't think that people need it or do you feel like it is should be asked for and not offered?

 

Now, talking about various cache hides I do all the time - and not only the 'newest' and creative. Chatting about the 'oldie' hides sometimes is helpful (which reminds me, no one is doing fake birdhouses any more, maybe I should set one up and surprise the newbies... Hmmm...) I've even talked about LPC's - telling about my first one and why I liked it (and others since then) - often to counter the negitive chatter so often heard (although, around here it's the ammo can under a pile of sticks that gets diss'ed). Many times I've had people 'soften' their stance about them when an honest discussion about them is held.

 

I can definitely say that my stance has "softened" or my understanding increased when it comes to certain types of hides. The strong support from a few small pockets in this forum for certain types of hides was probably the single biggest surprise when I first started posting here. While I feel very fortunate that I live on an island where we have 600+ geocaches and limited space. I think our situation might only be possible on an island. This is nothing that is openly promoted but it is understood that player have a great reverence and respect for the space they are occupying when they place a cache.

 

*] I'm a magician. I have one act that I've done - almost no changes - for over 30 years. I can just about do it in my sleep (I've done it when I was so ill I could hardly see straight, but that's another story.). To me it's 'boring' - the same thing over and over and over... - but to my audience it's new and exciting. This is one of the reasons I can be tolerant of the same style of cache hide, I can see it from both sides.

 

That's cool! I come from a family of magicians. My grandfather performed professionally in shows in Chicago and Los Angeles in the 40's and 50's. He passed his act down to my father and he entertained myself and my friends as an amateur whenever we could talk him into it. I'm proud to say that I am perform my Grandfather's act in it's entirely almost 60 years later. And I know what you mean, after all those years, people are still amazed at the same illusions that people were 50-60 years ago.

 

But you know what? I get bored just as my father did with the same act and I constantly look for new tricks to supplement the original act. That way, I can entertain the same audience more than one time. I think you might see where I am going with this as it relates to Geocaching.

 

Is it reasonable to think that we can keep amazing people with the same tricks until the end of time? I honestly don't know the answer to that but I do think it has worked so far. Geocaching is a great hobby. With that said, I think it is important to watch the audience carefully. When the applause turns into a golf clap, it might be time to shake things up again.

[+TrailGators]

I'm a magician. I have one act that I've done - almost no changes - for over 30 years. I can just about do it in my sleep (I've done it when I was so ill I could hardly see straight, but that's another story.). To me it's 'boring' - the same thing over and over and over... - but to my audience it's new and exciting. This is one of the reasons I can be tolerant of the same style of cache hide, I can see it from both sides.

I can see that too Jester. That's why this game is better for new people or people that can watch the same magic act many times without getting bored. When I was new, caching was more fun. Maybe that's why people remember the good old days. Anyhow, the only way to have good old days again would be for those people to only find caches hidden in new unexpected ways. That is a tricky thing to do these days. Edited November 22, 2008 by TrailGators

[+Team GeoBlast]

You have now acknowledged that your opinion and mine are very similar – therefore I ask again: Do you still have a problem with something specific I have said?

 

If yes, then please name the specific.

 

It's nothing specific with your viewpoint, but there is a reason I am asking you instead of the others and you should take that as a complement. I think that you will agree that these threads all seem to follow a very similar pattern. This particular one is no exception in that at some point they become a food fight, a dog pile, and a pissing contest. This continues until a moderator comes along and says enough. I'm going to take a wild stab that this type of interaction might be as unique in your world outside of this forum as it is in mine?

 

If no, then please shake my virtual hand and let’s part ways, both of us smiling quietly yet knowingly about our very similar, very worthy and very defendable viewpoints.

 

I guess my point is this. At some juncture in these threads we all stop listening to each other and the interaction becomes something that doesn't belong in a hobby forum. I believe it becomes counter productive to the point of being damaging to the hobby. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone as I am just as guilty as the next. If we can agree that we are all just passionate (perhaps more than most) about Geocaching and overall good well intended people, I think what drives all of us to participate in that level of discussion is something we should keep under the microscope.

 

I'll take your handshake gladly and hope you'll understand I take none of this personally either. I'll now do what I should have done two pages ago and move on.

Edited November 22, 2008 by Team GeoBlast

[+Team GeoBlast]

....

Edited November 22, 2008 by Team GeoBlast

[justahillbilly]

oh heck..does all that really happen? I was wondering about that kind of thing. I haven't even found my first cache and now I am wondering if it's all worth it.

[Trader Rick & Rosie]

PROBABLY NOT.

[Motorcycle_Mama]

Putting this dormant topic back to sleep.