Terrible cache hiders...

1.4k · November 20, 2008

Imagine Geocaching if this was all there was to it for a moment. A game that only encouraged you to hide something so it can be found. All use of effort or imagination is frowned upon. We would quite possibly have the world's silliest game.

I've followed this thread since the beginning, but stayed out of it (as much as I wanted to jump on one comment or another) - until now. This quote is just too funny, because it describes geocaching as it was in the beginning. I've been to many of the early caches - some because that's when I started, others because they are an interest of mine (why? I don't know, they just are. In fact, I started the first History Challenge cache). Let's see ... a cache at a wide spot in the road without anything else to recommend it (no view, history, hike, etc.); a cache at a freeway intersection out a way from most everything (including view, history, hikes and the like); a cache in the woods under one of countless bushes (I still haven't found the right one, I'll keep probing bushes. You can hike to this one, or drive within 100 yards); a cache in a ATV playground out in near desert (the only view is the noisy machines that may run you down get to the cache); a cache under a tree in range land just off a dirt road (careful what you sit on); a cache under a sage bush next to a quarry with a nice view (and sound) of the newer quarry just over there. These are all caches that were set up very early on - when the whole idea was to "hide something so it can be found".

And when has a tolerance for ... let's see, how should I phrase this, hmm, you would probably say: "less creative" caches mean frowning on the use of creativity? If a hider doesn't have creativity and places a bland cache, because I (or anybody) don't condemn him for it that means I (or we) don't like/want (i.e. 'frown on') creativity??? Maybe that bland cache was the best he could do? So, because he isn't up to your standard he shouldn't be placing caches?

I've seen where that has gotten out of hand with some of the puzzle caches around here - every one has to be "new" and "creative" (you can't reuse an idea, that's old hat or as you would say "lame". How often is a Sodoko puzzle used any more? Too "lame.") - to the point where many of them are so obscure that without a nudge from the hider you can't solve it.

Thanks for your well thought out comments Jester but you took that comment out of context and it does not reflect what I am trying to say, as you present it. All I have been suggesting is that we should encourage the development "a culture" of creativity, not mandate it. Nobody posting in this thread is trying to do that. I would really like to be clear about that.

Geocaching has evolved in the past eight years into what it is today. So while citing “how it was” is an interesting history lesson, it’s really irrelevant to this discussion. When someone decides to hide a cache today, they have to start somewhere and there is emulation. Sure not every cache has to be new or creative (again nobody is saying that or condemning anyone's effort) but it almost seems to me that simple encouragement is being discouraged by you and others. Innovation is a key to the continued advancement of the game and trying to keep it where it was back in 2001 is not something I support.

I think I am working from a disadvantage in some respects as I began Geocaching in an area where the standard that I speak of was already set. That is the culture that I learned to cache in and it is just understood that if you put a cache out, you are going to make it the best you can. No, not all of them are exceptional and there is no snobbishness, just friendly encouragement and pride. But the effort put forth does show. Coming from this reality, I'm not sure that I would have even liked the game you describe back in the day. As has been suggested by others, I would have found something else to do.

When someone gets so upset that we encourage people to do better in this forum, it’s almost surreal to me. But in the end it makes me feel fortunate that I've had the experience that I have had.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Team GeoBlast

8.4k · November 20, 2008

Geocaching has evolved, so while citing “how it was” is an interesting history lesson, it’s really irrelevant to this discussion.

Actually, it hasn't.... much. The rules are almost the same as they were 8 years ago.....

What you're dealing with is the first named branch on the geocaching tree of angst:

To summarize our "Geocaching Tree of Angst" so far:

We have an atmosphere rich with CO2 that is represented by one atom of "Entitlement" ( C ) and two atoms of "Expectation." (O2)

We have a rich medium for the growth of angst in our soil, which is represented by a common/general, "unawareness that this hobby is intrinsically linked to other people."

The water (H2O) that nourishes the tree is either actual or perceived (H2) negative interaction (O) between geocachers.

Our tree is furtilized by misconception, misinterpretation, and misunderstanding (MMM) whether actual or deliberate.

The roots of our tree are based in actual participation and experience in geocaching as an activity.... Hiding, finding, & moving trackables.

The trunk of our tree emerges over time. It is actually just individual experience that expresses itself in this way, "I know better than YOU what geocaching is supposed/intended to be all about."

From there our "Tree of Angst" branches out in many directions. Some branches sprout from the trunk and some branches think they are attacking the trunk from the other side, but are seemingly unaware that they are part of the same tree.

The named branches of our tree so far:

The Theory of Geocaching Evolution

Geocaching would be more fun for me, IF

Perceived Staunch Defenders of Everything Perceived Lame (P.S.D.E.P.L.)

Geocaching was so much better way back when

The Theory That It's the "OTHER GUY" Who Is Just Sucking the Fun Out of Geocaching

Edited November 20, 2008 by Snoogans

20.7k · November 20, 2008

EXCEPT, when you really think about it, hide and seek is the basic building block of intelligence. I believe that hide and seek, the essence of it, (survival) is what started our ancient ancestors down the road to where we are today as thinking, intelligent, self aware beings. It's funny that we just find more technological ways to play the same game we played as kids...... and that so many people take this new version so seriously.
It's funny you mention hide and seek. It was one of my favorite games as a kid! I bet a lot of us have that in common. The only time it wasn't so fun is when my little sister got lazy and hid in the hall closet every time it was her turn to hide. I guess I expected the unexpected.

I grew up with several siblings and we played such silly games. If one of us insisted in continually hiding in the same place, she either would have simply been tagged first or we would have stopped looking in the closet. Both solutions would serve to increase our amusement.

Similarly, if you find that there are some caches that you don't like, your best bet is to figure out way to avoid the bulk of those caches, just hold your nose for fifteen seconds and log them, or ignore them once you have ID'd them. The answer, in my opinion, is NOT to try to change other people. They are not the ones with the problem, since they enjoy hiding and finding these caches that bug you.

20.7k · November 20, 2008

So ... you interpret that comment as expressing distaste for creativity, do you?

This is how you come off. All I have heard is that we encourage creativity, thought, and energy be put into hiding geocaches and you have done nothing but lament that idea.

Are you against people improving and learning?

That is the message you seem to be sending.

I am personally against people who insult and deride other cachers (and their efforts) simply because they didn't live up to our arbitrary preferences. Further, I am put off by people who demand that people who are playing the game within the guidelines change to suit their own arbitrary preferences.

Coincidently, I also fully support the use of creativity, thought, and energy. These issues are not linked.

9.3k · November 20, 2008

All I have been suggesting is that we should encourage the development "a culture" of creativity, not mandate it. Nobody posting in this thread is trying to do that. I would really like to be clear about that.

TGB, you can clarify till your fingers turn blue, but the evidence indicates that, if you hint that, maybe, possibly, folks might improve the overall game by striving toward bettering their hides you'll run smack into the obfuscation wall put in place by The Defenders. No matter what you type, your thoughts will be twisted into something unrecognizable to you, simply so they'll have something worth railing against.

5.6k · November 20, 2008

All I have been suggesting is that we should encourage the development "a culture" of creativity, not mandate it. Nobody posting in this thread is trying to do that. I would really like to be clear about that.

TGB, you can clarify till your fingers turn blue, but the evidence indicates that, if you hint that, maybe, possibly, folks might improve the overall game by striving toward bettering their hides you'll run smack into the obfuscation wall put in place by The Defenders. No matter what you type, your thoughts will be twisted into something unrecognizable to you, simply so they'll have something worth railing against.

The twisting is done by both sides. When someone suggests that tolerance of bland caches is OK, that's twisted into "anti-creativity".

14.3k · November 20, 2008

All I have been suggesting is that we should encourage the development "a culture" of creativity, not mandate it. Nobody posting in this thread is trying to do that. I would really like to be clear about that.

TGB, you can clarify till your fingers turn blue, but the evidence indicates that, if you hint that, maybe, possibly, folks might improve the overall game by striving toward bettering their hides you'll run smack into the obfuscation wall put in place by The Defenders. No matter what you type, your thoughts will be twisted into something unrecognizable to you, simply so they'll have something worth railing against.

The twisting is done by both sides. When someone suggests that tolerance of bland caches is OK, that's twisted into "anti-creativity".

The bottom line is that do the defenders think that the game would be better, no different or worse if a higher percentage of people hid more creative caches?

These debates get silly because I think people just like to argue instead of admitting the obvious.

Anyhow, the way TGB talks about Hawaii, it really makes me want to go there. On second thought if there were no caches in Hawaii there I would still want to go to there!

Edited November 20, 2008 by TrailGators

8k · November 20, 2008

All I have been suggesting is that we should encourage the development "a culture" of creativity, not mandate it. Nobody posting in this thread is trying to do that. I would really like to be clear about that.

TGB, you can clarify till your fingers turn blue, but the evidence indicates that, if you hint that, maybe, possibly, folks might improve the overall game by striving toward bettering their hides you'll run smack into the obfuscation wall put in place by The Defenders. No matter what you type, your thoughts will be twisted into something unrecognizable to you, simply so they'll have something worth railing against.

It's good to see that TGB understands that one cannot mandate creativity. What isn't clear is why he think we don't have a culture that encourages creativity already. Aren't the more creative caches on more "favorites" lists? Don't they get longer logs or more photos posted?

On the other hand, there is a suggestion here that some caches are hidden in pursuit of getting more finders and that this reason for placing a cache is some how anti-creative. Perhaps instead of calling these "lame" caches we should call these "Thomas Kinkade" caches. Many art critics criticize Kinkade's art as repetitive and even banal and that he selects themes that appeal to his target audience just to sell more paintings. However, just as many people buy Kinkade's paintings so too will many people find lamp post hides .

Find the cache in this painting

5.6k · November 20, 2008

Imagine Geocaching if this was all there was to it for a moment. A game that only encouraged you to hide something so it can be found. All use of effort or imagination is frowned upon. We would quite possibly have the world's silliest game.

I've followed this thread since the beginning, but stayed out of it (as much as I wanted to jump on one comment or another) - until now. This quote is just too funny, because it describes geocaching as it was in the beginning. I've been to many of the early caches - some because that's when I started, others because they are an interest of mine (why? I don't know, they just are. In fact, I started the first History Challenge cache). Let's see ... a cache at a wide spot in the road without anything else to recommend it (no view, history, hike, etc.); a cache at a freeway intersection out a way from most everything (including view, history, hikes and the like); a cache in the woods under one of countless bushes (I still haven't found the right one, I'll keep probing bushes. You can hike to this one, or drive within 100 yards); a cache in a ATV playground out in near desert (the only view is the noisy machines that may run you down get to the cache); a cache under a tree in range land just off a dirt road (careful what you sit on); a cache under a sage bush next to a quarry with a nice view (and sound) of the newer quarry just over there. These are all caches that were set up very early on - when the whole idea was to "hide something so it can be found".

And when has a tolerance for ... let's see, how should I phrase this, hmm, you would probably say: "less creative" caches mean frowning on the use of creativity? If a hider doesn't have creativity and places a bland cache, because I (or anybody) don't condemn him for it that means I (or we) don't like/want (i.e. 'frown on') creativity??? Maybe that bland cache was the best he could do? So, because he isn't up to your standard he shouldn't be placing caches?

I've seen where that has gotten out of hand with some of the puzzle caches around here - every one has to be "new" and "creative" (you can't reuse an idea, that's old hat or as you would say "lame". How often is a Sodoko puzzle used any more? Too "lame.") - to the point where many of them are so obscure that without a nudge from the hider you can't solve it.

Thanks for your well thought out comments Jester but you took that comment out of context and it does not reflect what I am trying to say, as you present it. All I have been suggesting is that we should encourage the development "a culture" of creativity, not mandate it. Nobody posting in this thread is trying to do that. I would really like to be clear about that.

Geocaching has evolved in the past eight years into what it is today. So while citing “how it was” is an interesting history lesson, it’s really irrelevant to this discussion. When someone decides to hide a cache today, they have to start somewhere and there is emulation. Sure not every cache has to be new or creative (again nobody is saying that or condemning anyone's effort) but it almost seems to me that simple encouragement is being discouraged by you and others. Innovation is a key to the continued advancement of the game and trying to keep it where it was back in 2001 is not something I support.

I think I am working from a disadvantage in some respects as I began Geocaching in an area where the standard that I speak of was already set. That is the culture that I learned to cache in and it is just understood that if you put a cache out, you are going to make it the best you can. No, not all of them are exceptional and there is no snobbishness, just friendly encouragement and pride. But the effort put forth does show. Coming from this reality, I'm not sure that I would have even liked the game you describe back in the day. As has been suggested by others, I would have found something else to do.

When someone gets so upset that we encourage people to do better in this forum, it’s almost surreal to me. But in the end it makes me feel fortunate that I've had the experience that I have had.

I wasn't trying to restate your position, just comment on how that I didn't have to imagine if the game was that way - that's how it was when I began. And it's basically the same today.

Sticking a label on something, or someone, isn't the best way to have a discussion. Calling a cache 'lame' or someone as 'anti-creativity' can raise hackles and create defensive responses.

1.4k · November 20, 2008

Imagine Geocaching if this was all there was to it for a moment. A game that only encouraged you to hide something so it can be found. All use of effort or imagination is frowned upon. We would quite possibly have the world's silliest game.

I've followed this thread since the beginning, but stayed out of it (as much as I wanted to jump on one comment or another) - until now. This quote is just too funny, because it describes geocaching as it was in the beginning. I've been to many of the early caches - some because that's when I started, others because they are an interest of mine (why? I don't know, they just are. In fact, I started the first History Challenge cache). Let's see ... a cache at a wide spot in the road without anything else to recommend it (no view, history, hike, etc.); a cache at a freeway intersection out a way from most everything (including view, history, hikes and the like); a cache in the woods under one of countless bushes (I still haven't found the right one, I'll keep probing bushes. You can hike to this one, or drive within 100 yards); a cache in a ATV playground out in near desert (the only view is the noisy machines that may run you down get to the cache); a cache under a tree in range land just off a dirt road (careful what you sit on); a cache under a sage bush next to a quarry with a nice view (and sound) of the newer quarry just over there. These are all caches that were set up very early on - when the whole idea was to "hide something so it can be found".

And when has a tolerance for ... let's see, how should I phrase this, hmm, you would probably say: "less creative" caches mean frowning on the use of creativity? If a hider doesn't have creativity and places a bland cache, because I (or anybody) don't condemn him for it that means I (or we) don't like/want (i.e. 'frown on') creativity??? Maybe that bland cache was the best he could do? So, because he isn't up to your standard he shouldn't be placing caches?

I've seen where that has gotten out of hand with some of the puzzle caches around here - every one has to be "new" and "creative" (you can't reuse an idea, that's old hat or as you would say "lame". How often is a Sodoko puzzle used any more? Too "lame.") - to the point where many of them are so obscure that without a nudge from the hider you can't solve it.

Thanks for your well thought out comments Jester but you took that comment out of context and it does not reflect what I am trying to say, as you present it. All I have been suggesting is that we should encourage the development "a culture" of creativity, not mandate it. Nobody posting in this thread is trying to do that. I would really like to be clear about that.

Geocaching has evolved in the past eight years into what it is today. So while citing “how it was” is an interesting history lesson, it’s really irrelevant to this discussion. When someone decides to hide a cache today, they have to start somewhere and there is emulation. Sure not every cache has to be new or creative (again nobody is saying that or condemning anyone's effort) but it almost seems to me that simple encouragement is being discouraged by you and others. Innovation is a key to the continued advancement of the game and trying to keep it where it was back in 2001 is not something I support.

I think I am working from a disadvantage in some respects as I began Geocaching in an area where the standard that I speak of was already set. That is the culture that I learned to cache in and it is just understood that if you put a cache out, you are going to make it the best you can. No, not all of them are exceptional and there is no snobbishness, just friendly encouragement and pride. But the effort put forth does show. Coming from this reality, I'm not sure that I would have even liked the game you describe back in the day. As has been suggested by others, I would have found something else to do.

When someone gets so upset that we encourage people to do better in this forum, it’s almost surreal to me. But in the end it makes me feel fortunate that I've had the experience that I have had.

I wasn't trying to restate your position, just comment on how that I didn't have to imagine if the game was that way - that's how it was when I began. And it's basically the same today.

Sticking a label on something, or someone, isn't the best way to have a discussion. Calling a cache 'lame' or someone as 'anti-creativity' can raise hackles and create defensive responses.

Perhaps I owe you an apology Jester, this was your first post in this thread and I probably did some projecting and lumping in with some of the earlier discussion. I'm not trying trying to label you with anything but respect for your experience in the game. What I am asking you to understand is that what I am suggesting is not a change in the guidelines to mandate creativity. If you met me, you'd realize that the last thing a stranger would expect from me is an insult.

I'd like to ask you a question since I have no experience in Geocaching when all it was as you describe. Do you feel like the game has improved as it relates specifically to the caches we find since then? You've already mentioned the puzzle people in your circle trying to outdo each other and how you feel that might be over the top. If we can agree that everyone influences their own geo-culture in the places where they live, do you find yourself discouraging people to follow this model or what advice to give a new cacher if given the opportunity?

24.7k · November 20, 2008

All I have been suggesting is that we should encourage the development "a culture" of creativity, not mandate it. Nobody posting in this thread is trying to do that. I would really like to be clear about that.

TGB, you can clarify till your fingers turn blue, but the evidence indicates that, if you hint that, maybe, possibly, folks might improve the overall game by striving toward bettering their hides you'll run smack into the obfuscation wall put in place by The Defenders. No matter what you type, your thoughts will be twisted into something unrecognizable to you, simply so they'll have something worth railing against.

It's always comes down to defining the better that you wish to promote without at the same time crippling the creativity that you want to see. The harder you work at defining what you want, the smaller the box of what you are allowing.

24.7k · November 20, 2008

All I have been suggesting is that we should encourage the development "a culture" of creativity, not mandate it. Nobody posting in this thread is trying to do that. I would really like to be clear about that.

TGB, you can clarify till your fingers turn blue, but the evidence indicates that, if you hint that, maybe, possibly, folks might improve the overall game by striving toward bettering their hides you'll run smack into the obfuscation wall put in place by The Defenders. No matter what you type, your thoughts will be twisted into something unrecognizable to you, simply so they'll have something worth railing against.

The twisting is done by both sides. When someone suggests that tolerance of bland caches is OK, that's twisted into "anti-creativity".

The bottom line is that do the defenders think that the game would be better, no different or worse if a higher percentage of people hid more creative caches?
These debates get silly because I think people just like to argue instead of admitting the obvious.

Anyhow, the way TGB talks about Hawaii, it really makes me want to go there. On second thought if there were no caches in Hawaii there I would still want to go to there!

When you define creativity. You stiffle it. To get creative caches you have to allow the freedom for a person to place them. When you allow the freedom for creativity to blossom you are going to get all kinds of results.

20.7k · November 20, 2008

Imagine Geocaching if this was all there was to it for a moment. A game that only encouraged you to hide something so it can be found. All use of effort or imagination is frowned upon. We would quite possibly have the world's silliest game.

I've followed this thread since the beginning, but stayed out of it (as much as I wanted to jump on one comment or another) - until now. This quote is just too funny, because it describes geocaching as it was in the beginning. I've been to many of the early caches - some because that's when I started, others because they are an interest of mine (why? I don't know, they just are. In fact, I started the first History Challenge cache). Let's see ... a cache at a wide spot in the road without anything else to recommend it (no view, history, hike, etc.); a cache at a freeway intersection out a way from most everything (including view, history, hikes and the like); a cache in the woods under one of countless bushes (I still haven't found the right one, I'll keep probing bushes. You can hike to this one, or drive within 100 yards); a cache in a ATV playground out in near desert (the only view is the noisy machines that may run you down get to the cache); a cache under a tree in range land just off a dirt road (careful what you sit on); a cache under a sage bush next to a quarry with a nice view (and sound) of the newer quarry just over there. These are all caches that were set up very early on - when the whole idea was to "hide something so it can be found".

And when has a tolerance for ... let's see, how should I phrase this, hmm, you would probably say: "less creative" caches mean frowning on the use of creativity? If a hider doesn't have creativity and places a bland cache, because I (or anybody) don't condemn him for it that means I (or we) don't like/want (i.e. 'frown on') creativity??? Maybe that bland cache was the best he could do? So, because he isn't up to your standard he shouldn't be placing caches?

I've seen where that has gotten out of hand with some of the puzzle caches around here - every one has to be "new" and "creative" (you can't reuse an idea, that's old hat or as you would say "lame". How often is a Sodoko puzzle used any more? Too "lame.") - to the point where many of them are so obscure that without a nudge from the hider you can't solve it.

Thanks for your well thought out comments Jester but you took that comment out of context and it does not reflect what I am trying to say, as you present it. All I have been suggesting is that we should encourage the development "a culture" of creativity, not mandate it. Nobody posting in this thread is trying to do that. I would really like to be clear about that.

Geocaching has evolved in the past eight years into what it is today. So while citing “how it was” is an interesting history lesson, it’s really irrelevant to this discussion. When someone decides to hide a cache today, they have to start somewhere and there is emulation. Sure not every cache has to be new or creative (again nobody is saying that or condemning anyone's effort) but it almost seems to me that simple encouragement is being discouraged by you and others. Innovation is a key to the continued advancement of the game and trying to keep it where it was back in 2001 is not something I support.

I think I am working from a disadvantage in some respects as I began Geocaching in an area where the standard that I speak of was already set. That is the culture that I learned to cache in and it is just understood that if you put a cache out, you are going to make it the best you can. No, not all of them are exceptional and there is no snobbishness, just friendly encouragement and pride. But the effort put forth does show. Coming from this reality, I'm not sure that I would have even liked the game you describe back in the day. As has been suggested by others, I would have found something else to do.

When someone gets so upset that we encourage people to do better in this forum, it’s almost surreal to me. But in the end it makes me feel fortunate that I've had the experience that I have had.

I wasn't trying to restate your position, just comment on how that I didn't have to imagine if the game was that way - that's how it was when I began. And it's basically the same today.

Sticking a label on something, or someone, isn't the best way to have a discussion. Calling a cache 'lame' or someone as 'anti-creativity' can raise hackles and create defensive responses.

Perhaps I owe you an apology Jester, this was your first post in this thread and I probably did some projecting and lumping in with some of the earlier discussion. I'm not trying trying to label you with anything but respect for your experience in the game. What I am asking you to understand is that what I am suggesting is not a change in the guidelines to mandate creativity. If you met me, you'd realize that the last thing a stranger would expect from me is an insult.

Are you going to remove my label also, or is the cut off for your respect the month before I started playing the game? Edited November 20, 2008 by sbell111

3.9k · November 20, 2008

The Complainers seem to think the Defenders are limited to two choices. Either

1) Congratulate hiders on very creative caches and hope that more people hide creative caches too, or

2) promote lameness, discourage creativity, and try and keep people from encouraging creativity.

I've seen this over and over, and unless we're doing the first choice then we, by default, are in the second.

They don't see that they are actually in a third choice, which is

3) Enjoy creative caches and hope more people hide creative caches, but actively insult those that don't live up to the Complainer's arbitrary standards and try to force hiders, through intimidation, to stop hiding uninspired caches and put out more that the Complainers prefer.

The Complainers don't see that they're taking the 4th choice while somehow thinking all they're doing is the 1st choice.

They also don't see that the Defenders are in the fourth choice, which is

4) Enjoy creative caches and hope more people hide creative caches, but understand that not every cache can be something to write to TG and CR about and enjoy the cache anyway because maybe that cache IS the best that hider can do. But even if it's not the best they could do, it's what they did, and nobody is required to find them all anyway.

The Complainers don't see that by taking the 4th choice someone can completely avoid the 2nd, and they accuse anyone that does take the 4th choice of actually taking the 2nd.

And then the Complainers accuse the Defenders of twisting words. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

1.4k · November 20, 2008

Find the cache in this painting

Do you see the snowman? The carrot on his nose is actually a well sealed plastic carrot with some coords inside. The coords lead you out of town and onto a little side road.

You venture out onto the road not knowing what to expect but the anticipation is indeed building. About a quarter mile down the road, you encounter a much larger weather proof tub tucked inside a man made shelter. It has 4 pairs of snow shoes in it. You look at your caching partners and smile. There's no need for conversation because it is understood that you are now firmly inside an adventure. "What could possibly be next?" reverberates inside your head as you punch the new coords into your GPS. When you see that the coords lead to about a mile into forest towards some foothills, you realize that you are all in and it feels good.

You strap the shoes on and head into the woods. About a half mile into the trek you stop to get some water and you notice how still and beautiful the woods are here. The only disturbance to this pristine place is the tracks you have left behind. You and your friends understand something very special about Geocaching at this point. You would never have experienced this place and this moment if you had not checked inside that carrot. You push on and once you get inside 500 feet, you can see that you are very close to the hills.

As you enter a clearing you see IT. It's a cave. It's not just a cave but an ice cave carved into the hill. You go inside and easily find the cache. Looking around you appreciate the amazing amount of work it took to carve this place out. There's shelves and benches in a well planned out circular configuration.

Inside the cache you find a note. "Welcome to my cave. I've lived in this area for 45 years and every winter I make the trek out here and recreate this place. It is where I come to get away from it all and think. I've never shared it with anyone until now but since I am getting up in years, I decided to make it into a Geocache. I hope you will enjoy and respect this special place. Please keep it our secret"

Or... where you talking about the frozen film canister under lamp post skirt?

14.3k · November 20, 2008

The bottom line is that do the defenders think that the game would be better, no different or worse if a higher percentage of people hid more creative caches?
These debates get silly because I think people just like to argue instead of admitting the obvious.

Anyhow, the way TGB talks about Hawaii, it really makes me want to go there. On second thought if there were no caches in Hawaii there I would still want to go to there!

When you define creativity. You stiffle it. To get creative caches you have to allow the freedom for a person to place them. When you allow the freedom for creativity to blossom you are going to get all kinds of results.

Considering that 99% of people don't read the forums, nobody is hindering the freedom for creativity to blossom.

Edited November 20, 2008 by TrailGators

14.3k · November 20, 2008

Find the cache in this painting

Do you see the snowman? The carrot on his nose is actually a well sealed plastic carrot with some coords inside. The coords lead you out of town and onto a little side road.

You venture out onto the road not knowing what to expect but the anticipation is indeed building. About a quarter mile down the road, you encounter a much larger weather proof tub tucked inside a man made shelter. It has 4 pairs of snow shoes in it. You look at your caching partners and smile. There's no need for conversation because it is understood that you are now firmly inside an adventure. "What could possibly be next?" reverberates inside your head as you punch the new coords into your GPS. When you see that the coords lead to about a mile into forest towards some foothills, you realize that you are all in and it feels good.

You strap the shoes on and head into the woods. About a half mile into the trek you stop to get some water and you notice how still and beautiful the woods are here. The only disturbance to this pristine place is the tracks you have left behind. You and your friends understand something very special about Geocaching at this point. You would never have experienced this place and this moment if you had not checked inside that carrot. You push on and once you get inside 500 feet, you can see that you are very close to the hills.

As you enter a clearing you see IT. It's a cave. It's not just a cave but an ice cave carved into the hill. You go inside and easily find the cache. Looking around you appreciate the amazing amount of work it took to carve this place out. There's shelves and benches in a well planned out circular configuration.

Inside the cache you find a note. "Welcome to my cave. I've lived in this area for 45 years and every winter I make the trek out here and recreate this place. It is where I come to get away from it all and think. I've never shared it with anyone until now but since I am getting up in years, I decided to make it into a Geocache. I hope you will enjoy and respect this special place. Please keep it our secret"

Thanks for the fun dream cache, TGB!

8k · November 20, 2008

Find the cache in this painting

Thanks for the fun dream cache, TGB!

It's a cold winter day and we're hurrying home for Christmas dinner. We don't have time for a 5 star multi cache adventure. We want to find something that takes just a few minutes of time. Fortunately our route takes us down a snowy street passed homes decorated for the holidays. (Wal*Mart is closed so it's not as if we can go there to get some last minute presents and find the cache in the parking lot). While enjoying the holiday displays, we stop an lift the skirt on the street lamp to find a film can with a log sheet to sign. Just the perfect cache to find and get home for our family meal. (And besides the snowman is on private property. Do you really expect a geocacher to climb over the fence and start checking the snowman's nose? I'm pretty sure that sign says "No Tresspassing")

1.4k · November 20, 2008

Enjoy creative caches and hope more people hide creative caches, but understand that not every cache can be something to write to TG and CR about and enjoy the cache anyway because maybe that cache IS the best that hider can do. But even if it's not the best they could do, it's what they did, and nobody is required to find them all anyway.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with this provided that taking a new hider aside and showing them some caches that you've enjoyed and helping them understand the *basic architecture* of a good cache beyond the guidelines is acceptable and not considered stifling creativity.

I'm not talking about asking them to place the type of geocache that I like but getting it across that the sky is really the limit and it is okay to try new things if that is their desire or showing them how simplicity sometimes can be just as fun to use. If they see the joy I have when I find a great cache and it rubs off, so be it. But I've never said "do it this way."

Help with with information like *understanding what an appropriate container is for that area and the sharing of knowledge how the landscape can change seasonally is assistance I enjoyed early in my cache hiding career and it really helped me. Let me tell ya, my caches rock because of it! I see passing this type of information on as essential. This is the culture that I am describing.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Team GeoBlast

1.4k · November 20, 2008

Find the cache in this painting

Thanks for the fun dream cache, TGB!

It's a cold winter day and we're hurrying home for Christmas dinner. We don't have time for a 5 star multi cache adventure. We want to find something that takes just a few minutes of time. Fortunately our route takes us down a snowy street passed homes decorated for the holidays. (Wal*Mart is closed so it's not as if we can go there to get some last minute presents and find the cache in the parking lot). While enjoying the holiday displays, we stop an lift the skirt on the street lamp to find a film can with a log sheet to sign. Just the perfect cache to find and get home for our family meal. (And besides the snowman is on private property. Do you really expect a geocacher to climb over the fence and start checking the snowman's nose? I'm pretty sure that sign says "No Tresspassing")

That's funny but it was my cache dream and I own the rights to it. It's not on private property. In fact, on the way back from the cave, I found a perfect piece of wood that I was looking for a project that I was thinking about. I whittled it into a whistle for my Grandpa instead of jumping into the last minute shopping rush. On Christmas morning, he cried when he unwrapped it as he taught me to whittle when I was ten years old.

All attempts to interject angst will fail. It's just not happening man.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Team GeoBlast

14.3k · November 20, 2008

All attempts to interject angst will fail. It's just not happening man.

Good for you, TGB!

1k · November 20, 2008

Considering that 99% of people don't read the forums, nobody is hindering the freedom for creativity to blossom.

1% of the people reading the forums would be 67,200,000 people... wow! You'd think there'd be more posts...

hehehe

Thousands of books get submitted to publishers every year and only a rare few make best sellers. You can't control what books are written, only what books you choose to read. That's the way freedom of creativity works. Same goes for caches.... out of the thousands that get submitted some will be less then par, but even less turn out to be best sellers. We cachers only have the right to pick what we search, not what's created.

Innovative breakthroughs are driven by passion more than perspiration.....

3.1k · November 20, 2008

Find the cache in this painting

Thanks for the fun dream cache, TGB!

It's a cold winter day and we're hurrying home for Christmas dinner. We don't have time for a 5 star multi cache adventure. We want to find something that takes just a few minutes of time. Fortunately our route takes us down a snowy street passed homes decorated for the holidays. (Wal*Mart is closed so it's not as if we can go there to get some last minute presents and find the cache in the parking lot). While enjoying the holiday displays, we stop an lift the skirt on the street lamp to find a film can with a log sheet to sign. Just the perfect cache to find and get home for our family meal. (And besides the snowman is on private property. Do you really expect a geocacher to climb over the fence and start checking the snowman's nose? I'm pretty sure that sign says "No Tresspassing")

That's funny but it was my cache dream and I own the rights to it. It's not on private property. In fact, on the way back from the cave, I found a perfect piece of wood that I was looking for a project that I was thinking about. I whittled it into a whistle for my Grandpa instead of jumping into the last minute shopping rush. On Christmas morning, he cried when he unwrapped it as he taught me to whittle when I was ten years old.

Unfortunately, that lamp post micro is too close for you to place your carrot nose. No snowshoe ice cave cache for you!

1.4k · November 20, 2008

Are you going to remove my label also, or is the cut off for your respect the month before I started playing the game?

I'm prepared to start respecting you at any time. You know what you need to do to earn it. I don't even have to say it.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Team GeoBlast

1.4k · November 20, 2008

Unfortunately, that lamp post micro is too close for you to place your carrot nose. No snowshoe ice cave cache for you!

LOL. You guys are killing me. Get out of my dream now!

1.4k · November 20, 2008

Considering that 99% of people don't read the forums, nobody is hindering the freedom for creativity to blossom.
1% of the people reading the forums would be 67,200,000 people... wow! You'd think there'd be more posts... hehehe

Thousands of books get submitted to publishers every year and only a rare few make best sellers. You can't control what books are written, only what books you choose to read. That's the way freedom of creativity works. Same goes for caches.... out of the thousands that get submitted some will be less then par, but even less turn out to be best sellers. We cachers only have the right to pick what we search, not what's created.

Innovative breakthroughs are driven by passion more than perspiration.....

Standing O!

14.3k · November 20, 2008

Unfortunately, that lamp post micro is too close for you to place your carrot nose. No snowshoe ice cave cache for you!

LOL. You guys are killing me. Get out of my dream now!

Not to mention that it doesn't snow in Hawaii!

1.4k · November 20, 2008

Unfortunately, that lamp post micro is too close for you to place your carrot nose. No snowshoe ice cave cache for you!

LOL. You guys are killing me. Get out of my dream now!

Not to mention that it doesn't snow in Hawaii!

http://kamfamily.files.wordpress.com/2008/...akala_snow2.jpg

14.3k · November 20, 2008

Unfortunately, that lamp post micro is too close for you to place your carrot nose. No snowshoe ice cave cache for you!

LOL. You guys are killing me. Get out of my dream now!

Not to mention that it doesn't snow in Hawaii!

http://kamfamily.files.wordpress.com/2008/...akala_snow2.jpg

I stand corrected. The dream is back! :lol:

Edited November 20, 2008 by TrailGators

1.4k · November 20, 2008

Unfortunately, that lamp post micro is too close for you to place your carrot nose. No snowshoe ice cave cache for you!

LOL. You guys are killing me. Get out of my dream now!

Not to mention that it doesn't snow in Hawaii!

http://kamfamily.files.wordpress.com/2008/...akala_snow2.jpg

I stand corrected. The dream is back!

The dream never left. Long live the dream! :laughing:

1.4k · November 20, 2008

I am personally against people who insult and deride other cachers (and their efforts) simply because they didn't live up to our arbitrary preferences. Further, I am put off by people who demand that people who are playing the game within the guidelines change to suit their own arbitrary preferences.

Boy oh boy, do you sound angry.

14.3k · November 20, 2008

I am personally against people who insult and deride other cachers (and their efforts) simply because they didn't live up to our arbitrary preferences. Further, I am put off by people who demand that people who are playing the game within the guidelines change to suit their own arbitrary preferences.

Boy oh boy, do you sound angry.

No kidding... :laughing:

I was trying to figure out who these people are that 'insult and deride other cachers?' Who are these people 'who demand' that people playing the game 'change?' Do you have any idea TGB? I think someone is having a bad dream and thinking that their fictitious dream is reality....

I know that we like to dream also, but we prefer the good the snow scene dream! :laughing:

Edited November 20, 2008 by TrailGators

20.7k · November 20, 2008

Are you going to remove my label also, or is the cut off for your respect the month before I started playing the game?

I'm prepared to start respecting you at any time. You know what you need to do to earn it. I don't even have to say it.

I'm sorry, but I refuse to lose my self respect to gain the so-called respect of someone else.

20.7k · November 20, 2008

I am personally against people who insult and deride other cachers (and their efforts) simply because they didn't live up to our arbitrary preferences. Further, I am put off by people who demand that people who are playing the game within the guidelines change to suit their own arbitrary preferences.

Boy oh boy, do you sound angry.

Not to me.

Of course, I keep my PC's speakers turned off.

20.7k · November 20, 2008

I am personally against people who insult and deride other cachers (and their efforts) simply because they didn't live up to our arbitrary preferences. Further, I am put off by people who demand that people who are playing the game within the guidelines change to suit their own arbitrary preferences.

Boy oh boy, do you sound angry.

No kidding...

I was trying to figure out who these people are that 'insult and deride other cachers?' Who are these people 'who demand' that people playing the game 'change?' Do you have any idea TGB? I think someone is having a bad dream and thinking that their fictitious dream is reality....

Let's see, if we start at post one on this thread, we'd get all the way to post one before coming across such an instance. I could find plenty more in here, but there's really no point.

1.4k · November 20, 2008

Are you going to remove my label also, or is the cut off for your respect the month before I started playing the game?

I'm prepared to start respecting you at any time. You know what you need to do to earn it. I don't even have to say it.

I'm sorry, but I refuse to lose my self respect to gain the so-called respect of someone else.

I guess it bears revisiting the fact that you asked the question in the first place. A long time ago, you decided that you would make a career out of trolling me and you do it, unprovoked, at any opportunity you see. If you are not willing to stop doing that, I have no problem with it as you seem like you are pretty into your right to do anything you please. Just don't ask me to lift any labels I've put on you again.

Deal?

1.4k · November 20, 2008

I am personally against people who insult and deride other cachers (and their efforts) simply because they didn't live up to our arbitrary preferences. Further, I am put off by people who demand that people who are playing the game within the guidelines change to suit their own arbitrary preferences.

Boy oh boy, do you sound angry.

No kidding...

I was trying to figure out who these people are that 'insult and deride other cachers?' Who are these people 'who demand' that people playing the game 'change?' Do you have any idea TGB? I think someone is having a bad dream and thinking that their fictitious dream is reality....

Let's see, if we start at post one on this thread, we'd get all the way to post one before coming across such an instance. I could find plenty more in here, but there's really no point.

Yeah, it is much more productive to continue being angry and producing enough angst to start WIV huh?

Edited November 20, 2008 by Team GeoBlast

1.4k · November 20, 2008

Double dribble. Heh... there's a slow pitch over the middle of the plate for somebody.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Team GeoBlast

20.7k · November 20, 2008

Are you going to remove my label also, or is the cut off for your respect the month before I started playing the game?

I'm prepared to start respecting you at any time. You know what you need to do to earn it. I don't even have to say it.

I'm sorry, but I refuse to lose my self respect to gain the so-called respect of someone else.

I guess it bears revisiting the fact that you asked the question in the first place. A long time ago, you decided that you would make a career out of trolling me and you do it, unprovoked, at any opportunity you see. If you are not willing to stop doing that, I have no problem with it as you seem like you are pretty into your right to do anything you please. Just don't ask me to lift any labels I've put on you again.

Deal?

No. What are you talking about?

20.7k · November 20, 2008

I am personally against people who insult and deride other cachers (and their efforts) simply because they didn't live up to our arbitrary preferences. Further, I am put off by people who demand that people who are playing the game within the guidelines change to suit their own arbitrary preferences.

Boy oh boy, do you sound angry.

No kidding...

I was trying to figure out who these people are that 'insult and deride other cachers?' Who are these people 'who demand' that people playing the game 'change?' Do you have any idea TGB? I think someone is having a bad dream and thinking that their fictitious dream is reality....

Let's see, if we start at post one on this thread, we'd get all the way to post one before coming across such an instance. I could find plenty more in here, but there's really no point.

Yeah, it is much more productive to continue being angry and producing enough angst to start WIV huh?

Ummm, I'm not angry. Also, what's WIV?

1.4k · November 20, 2008

I am personally against people who insult and deride other cachers (and their efforts) simply because they didn't live up to our arbitrary preferences. Further, I am put off by people who demand that people who are playing the game within the guidelines change to suit their own arbitrary preferences.

Boy oh boy, do you sound angry.

No kidding...

I was trying to figure out who these people are that 'insult and deride other cachers?' Who are these people 'who demand' that people playing the game 'change?' Do you have any idea TGB? I think someone is having a bad dream and thinking that their fictitious dream is reality....

I know that we like to dream also, but we prefer the good the snow scene dream!

I was trying to figure out who these people are that 'insult and deride other cachers?' Who are these people 'who demand' that people playing the game 'change?' Do you have any idea TGB? I think someone is having a bad dream and thinking that their fictitious dream is reality...

.

You know what? KBI asked me a similar question earlier in this thread about my own viewpoint. I'll bite on this one. It's us. The common perception from the defenders is that we spend our time in here talking down at people and or their hides. The other issues are varied but I believe this to be at the core of their angst.

I know you will say the same thing as I am going to here. I'm simply misunderstood as I don't feel this way at all. I'm just the kind of person that gets great satisfaction in seeing people be the best that they can be. In the case of hiding a geocache, I also feel this is something that doesn't just happen in some cases without some guidance. There's basic knowledge that is sometimes very hard to obtain and some of it is generally not intuitive.

Then there's folks like Rustic Scout a few posts back that is so nervous about placing her first cache is it is almost unbearable to her. I believe that sharing experience and encouragement at this "defining moment" could truly produce another other great cache hider with the will to "be all that they can be." Here a geo-culture that will allow the game to prosper and evolve is important and in my mind necessary. It is also a great way to make friends.

That's it really. I've never told anyone how to hide a cache before or have I ever spoken down to anyone. As for the caches, there's no denying that what is out there is out there. We've talked at length on how to manage the available data and figure out the best way to enjoy the game.

20.7k · November 20, 2008

Terrible

Cheap

Lazy

desire to pad their numbers

Lack of inspiration

haphazard

stinkers

pump up your numbers hides

solely for the sake of numbers

numbers hider

sole or specific purpose of inflating find counts.

terrible cache hider

14.3k · November 20, 2008

pretty view

nice walk/hike

historic/unusual

cleverly hidden

smile

adventure

good

special

carrot

amazing

dream

Edited November 20, 2008 by TrailGators

1k · November 20, 2008

desire to pad their numbers
pump up your numbers hides

solely for the sake of numbers

numbers hider

Guess I missed the reason people would want to pad their HIDE numbers. Geeze, my maintenance list stays populated and I spend a lot more time on that then finding caches. I do it because to me it's fun reading good logs, not because there are some kind of kudos for number of hides. And since I see the local reviewers are getting tougher on owners not maintaining their hides (at least here) I would think being a slacker owner is getting tougher.

I guess anyone wanting to point and complain about people in the GC community could not only look at people who hide supposedly "lame" or not-so-creative hides, could also equally complain about :

- People who cut-and-paste log entries

- People who type 4 letter or less log entries (TFTH)

- People who don't re-hide caches as they found them

- People who don't close cache containers tightly

- People who do not write appropriately on the log sheet (ie-full names and date on a nano log)

- People who do not trade swag equally

- People who do not log trackable items properly or in a timely fashion

- People who snag trackable items like coins for their personal collection

- People who never add photograph's to their log entires

- People who quote a mile long quote in a forum message so they can type a one line reply

- People who double post forum messages and don't delete the copy

- People who do not take the time to have a profile picture of some kind

- People who put their critique of a cache hide in their log entry

- People who do not rate the difficulty/terrain of their hides properly

- People who put food in a hide as a trade item

- People who log a cache is missing when they just couldn't find it

- People who make lists of things people could complain about

:laughing:

8k · November 20, 2008

Then there's folks like Rustic Scout a few posts back that is so nervous about placing her first cache is it is almost unbearable to her. I believe that sharing experience and encouragement at this "defining moment" could truly produce another other great cache hider with the will to "be all that they can be." Here a geo-culture that will allow the game to prosper and evolve is important and in my mind necessary. It is also a great way to make friends.

Perhaps Rustic Scout is nervous because she sees all the angst in the forum about terrible cachers and lame hides. If she felt instead that people would accept her cache graciously she would go ahead an hide what she would like to find. I have no problem with people posting recommendations or checklists for cache hiders, or privately talking with hiders about why they choose a certain location or style of hide for a cache. I have no problem with positive bookmark lists that point out caches that were particularly fun or memorable. I have no problem if Jeremy implements a system to reward caches and cache hiders that are worthy of special recognition. The problem I have is when people use terms like "terrible cache hiders" and complain about caches that don't meet their standards of creativity. The only standards a cache needs to meet are the one in the official guidelines. I'm not anti-creativity. I'll admit that a clever hide or one that take be to a interesting place is usually more enjoyable that another LPC in a Wal*Mart parking lot. I am against having a minimum standard of creativity, as it would be another Wow!! guideline like there was for virtual caches.

14.3k · November 20, 2008

I am against having a minimum standard of creativity, as it would be another Wow!! guideline like there was for virtual caches.

The site would never do that. They've actually made it very clear as to what they will and will not do.

8.4k · November 20, 2008

I am against having a minimum standard of creativity, as it would be another Wow!! guideline like there was for virtual caches.
The site would never do that. They've actually made it very clear as to what they will and will not do.

Ummm, they DID do that. It didn't work and virts bit the dust. :laughing:

BTW - I actually got a virt approved under the double secret WOW factor guideline.

1.4k · November 20, 2008

I am against having a minimum standard of creativity, as it would be another Wow!! guideline like there was for virtual caches.
The site would never do that. They've actually made it very clear as to what they will and will not do.

This is a key issue with everyone. I want to go on record (KBI loves when I do that) as saying that not only is this something I would never support, it's impossible. So now that I am officially on the record as saying this, does it mean that I won't be accused of it again?

If you believe the answer to this is absolutely yes, I've got some coords to an ice cave for ya.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Team GeoBlast

1.4k · November 20, 2008

Then there's folks like Rustic Scout a few posts back that is so nervous about placing her first cache is it is almost unbearable to her. I believe that sharing experience and encouragement at this "defining moment" could truly produce another other great cache hider with the will to "be all that they can be." Here a geo-culture that will allow the game to prosper and evolve is important and in my mind necessary. It is also a great way to make friends.

Perhaps Rustic Scout is nervous because she sees all the angst in the forum about terrible cachers and lame hides. If she felt instead that people would accept her cache graciously she would go ahead an hide what she would like to find.

I have inside knowledge that this is not the case. She was worried about her GPS being crappy and not having good coords. She is very new to the forums.

I think words like terrible and lame should not be used. I don't use them. They are not nice.

1.4k · November 20, 2008

pretty view

nice walk/hike

historic/unusual

cleverly hidden

smile

adventure

good

special

carrot

amazing

dream

Did you throw carrot in there to see if we were paying attention? If so, I'd like to add that is a water-tight carrot with an o-ring seal.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Team GeoBlast

Terrible cache hiders...

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