A Limit Per Person?

[fuv90.7]

I want to place a cache but the same two people have monopoly in my area. They have every park covered with no room for anyone else. Why can't there be a limit as to how many you can place?

It's disappointing and frustrating.

[+Thrak]

I want to place a cache but the same two people have monopoly in my area. They have every park covered with no room for anyone else. Why can't there be a limit as to how many you can place?

It's disappointing and frustrating.

 

Your profile shows you as being a member since Saturday, February 12, 2005

 

It also shows zero finds or hides.

 

Socks? Do I smell socks? Sounds like someone just trying to stir things up.

 

I had a friend who was a new cacher who wanted to place a hide in a certain area. He whined and whined about another cacher who had the area "totally sewn up" and was "hogging it" to himself. (The other person had been caching for quite a while.) I got sick of the whining, went to the area, scouted it and then found a great spot that was .1 mile from any other cache and placed one there. The cache has been a great success and folks have liked it a lot. Needless to say that annoyed the whiner even more.

Edited March 14, 2008 by Thrak

[+mtn-man]

No hides. No finds.

 

Thrak, I think you are right. I smell something that smells like dirty feet.

[+gof1]

*Sniff*Sniff*Sniff*

 

I hear the "No good places left" argument around here every now and again. Yet if I want to find a place I just look.

[+kewfriend]

Every now and then people have a grumble and may want to keep their real persona hidden - I have no problems with that, though I think its a bit paranoid.

 

As for the issue itself - if an area is fully covered (unlikely) then that is a good and very rare event. It may be that the most 'obvious' locations have been 'seized'. In my experience as a setter that brings out the best in me as I research and setup interesting puzzles or multis - no casual cache setting. If its an issue of cooperating, then contact the other cachers and agree to meet up and plan even more interesting caches.

[+ReadyOrNot]

No hides. No finds.

 

Thrak, I think you are right. I smell something that smells like dirty feet.

 

Could you please show a little compassion,... I was born this way.

[+mtn-man]

[+TrailGators]

No hides. No finds.

 

Thrak, I think you are right. I smell something that smells like dirty feet.

[+Thrak]

No hides. No finds.

 

Thrak, I think you are right. I smell something that smells like dirty feet.

 

Could you please show a little compassion,... I was born this way.

 

No way. I'm jealous because you have more hair than me. Curses to the hairy socks.

[+PyrateWench]

 

Socks? Do I smell socks? Sounds like someone just trying to stir things up.

 

 

Ok... Maybe that's a term used around these forums, but I'm not familiar. I know about Trolls/Trolling - but what does the sock reference mean??

 

And as far as the topic - I don't see a difference between 2 people putting caches all over the place (as long as they are maintained) and 200 people taking up all the caching spots. First come, first served, imo. But then again, I doubt any city is completely monopolized ever 1/10 of a mile.

[+sbell111]

 

Socks? Do I smell socks? Sounds like someone just trying to stir things up.

 

 

Ok... Maybe that's a term used around these forums, but I'm not familiar. I know about Trolls/Trolling - but what does the sock reference mean??

 

And as far as the topic - I don't see a difference between 2 people putting caches all over the place (as long as they are maintained) and 200 people taking up all the caching spots. First come, first served, imo. But then again, I doubt any city is completely monopolized ever 1/10 of a mile.

Think of a sock puppet as an anonymous troll.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

I want to place a cache but the same two people have monopoly in my area. They have every park covered with no room for anyone else. Why can't there be a limit as to how many you can place?

It's disappointing and frustrating.

 

Okay, I'll play.

 

What number would you propose for a limit? Would you make that limit retroactive?

 

Is anyone else playing around with the "Google Maps with Clusters" GSAK plugin? It's very cool.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Think of a sock puppet as an anonymous troll.

 

That's not entirely accurate. Based on my experience participation in online forums since about 1984, my definition is that a sock puppet is distinguished from the run of the mill anonymous troll in that it is likely someone (or someone else posting anonymously on their behalf) already participating in the forum they are trolling.

[+Renegade Knight]

I want to place a cache but the same two people have monopoly in my area. They have every park covered with no room for anyone else. Why can't there be a limit as to how many you can place?

It's disappointing and frustrating.

At one time it was in the guidelines to show some constraint and not dominate your area. I'm not sure if that's still mentioned or not. It's good policy though. However it's not retrocative. If NOBODY is placing caches then there really isn't much reason not to place them yourself.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

I want to place a cache but the same two people have monopoly in my area. They have every park covered with no room for anyone else. Why can't there be a limit as to how many you can place?

It's disappointing and frustrating.

 

Your profile shows you as being a member since Saturday, February 12, 2005

 

It also shows zero finds or hides.

 

Socks? Do I smell socks? Sounds like someone just trying to stir things up.

 

I had a friend who was a new cacher who wanted to place a hide in a certain area. He whined and whined about another cacher who had the area "totally sewn up" and was "hogging it" to himself. (The other person had been caching for quite a while.) I got sick of the whining, went to the area, scouted it and then found a great spot that was .1 mile from any other cache and placed one there. The cache has been a great success and folks have liked it a lot. Needless to say that annoyed the whiner even more.

Thanks for the story! Even though the OP appears to be a sock puppet troll, I enjoyed your tale!

[+ReadyOrNot]

The OP does own a TB. I can't imagine buying a TB for a sock account.... ???

 

Your travel bug has a stated beginning journey of the following:

 

"We are setting PTTS free on the highest point of Long island in New York, near the Atlantic Ocean."

 

If that's the location that you are scouting to place your cache, then no wonder you're having problems. I can't confirm your location or where you are trying to place your cache, but that's the best I can do. Perhaps you should start the TB on his journey in someone else's cache near there?

[Motorcycle_Mama]

The sock issue aside, the subject has certainly been already whined about (er discussed) in the past.

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...0&p=3169560

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...0&p=2353052

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...=0&p=978118

[+TeamGumbo]

I bet that as you go around finding all of those caches the two have placed that you find a whole bunch of cool places to put a cache of your own.

[+Knight2000]

Socks have a purpose. In this type of community anonymity can be very important for many reasons. As long as they aren't causing problems or acting maliciously- socks should be ok.

 

How would you feel if you got into the hobby and several local cachers have the area peppered with film cans, rusty altoid tins, skoal cans, and used deli containers from their last ham salad purchase? Oh yeah- none have permission. Worse yet, you speak up and you get ostracized from you local caching community.

 

If people like you, then things go better. Which means if you are a well liked person people will look the other way for bad caches and caches that clearly violate guidelines. Should you dare to speak up?

 

Someone asked a legit question/concern and everyone chimes in about being a sock. Who cares if it is a sock? Socks don't have feelings or concerns?

[+StarBrand]

Socks are sometimes like trolls - only trying to stir things up. It just adds an extra odor.

 

 

As for the OP - no I do not believe there should be a limit. As long as they are maintained and within guidelines. I have no reason to believe the 2 hiders you mention do otherwise.

[+gof1]

The OP does own a TB. I can't imagine buying a TB for a sock account.... ???

 

Really? Sounds like a $4.00 investment in "street cred.". Makes a sock look all lived in and what not.

[+briansnat]

WFUV 90.7 happens to be a pretty good radio station (I'm listening to it right now). Being that it's a NYC/LI/Northern NJ radio station I'll assume that the OP lives in that area. So do I.

 

I have 200+ hides in this area and off of the top of my head, I have ideas for probably two dozen good spots that currently do not have caches. I'm also constantly surprised by the great spots my fellow locals come up with for caches.

 

If you're willing to make the effort, you can find good spots for caches, so to complain that someone is hogging all the good spots simply means that the complainer is not motivated enough to go out and look for good spots.

[+ReadyOrNot]

Socks don't have feelings or concerns?

 

This is going into my list of all-time favorite quotes

 

Thanks!

[+Snoogans]

I want to place a cache but the same two people have monopoly in my area. They have every park covered with no room for anyone else. Why can't there be a limit as to how many you can place?

It's disappointing and frustrating.

 

I'm alllll FOR limits.

 

Where should we start? The most prolific hider I know of is King Boreas currently with 1,620. So let's give him his due and set the limit at 4,000.

 

There. Happy now?

[+Harry Dolphin]

Lessee... My furthest hidden cache is 31.9 miles away. A = π*r*r. That gives me 3186 square miles to hide caches in (Not counting part of the Atlantic Ocean.) Okay. For some strange reason, I only hide caches north, east and west. 1593 square miles. In that 1593 square miles, there are about ten million people living. I'm sure that there a few thousand geocachers here. There are about 2200 geocaches hidden in that 3186 square mile circle.

Funny. I've never had any difficulty finding places to hide caches, when the fancy strikes me. And, most of them have excellent views!

I guess that life is what you make it. If you want to hide a cache, go find a nice place to hide one! If you want to spend your time worrying about imaginary problems, that's your prerogative too.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

There already IS a limit, albeit an informal one - you can hide as many as you can readily maintain and no more!

[+BlueDeuce]

There already IS a limit, albeit an informal one - you can hide as many as you can readily maintain and no more!

 

Bingo!

[Trinity's Crew]

I have 200+ hides in this area and off of the top of my head, I have ideas for probably two dozen good spots that currently do not have caches. I'm also constantly surprised by the great spots my fellow locals come up with for caches.

200 plus? Heck, you're probably one of the turf hogs (s)he's complaining about!

[fuv90.7]

Wow... lots of unwarranted and mean spirited replies posted. I wasn't expecting that.

No, no Socks, nor was I trying to stir anything up.

This was my first visit and post on the forum.

In answer to your question.....

I have found one or two caches, just never posted any comments before. I'm not very experienced with the way it all works yet and here's why:

My very best friend and I tried to place a cache a while ago and got shot down because it was too close to someone else's. Shortly after that, my friend found out he had colon cancer and the geocaching thing got sidelined. Unfortunately, he died last fall and in his honor, I wanted to place that same cache along with a Travel Bug we named 'Paddle to the Sea' after the book by Hollings which has special meaning for us. When I tried to find a spot, I noticed that almost every park around here is monopolized by two people. The parks aren't that big and I'm not experienced enough to get exactly so and so many inches from another one, nor do I have the time to keep placing and moving it.

What's wrong with having a limit and letting other people in?

 

 

 

I want to place a cache but the same two people have monopoly in my area. They have every park covered with no room for anyone else. Why can't there be a limit as to how many you can place?

It's disappointing and frustrating.

 

Your profile shows you as being a member since Saturday, February 12, 2005

 

It also shows zero finds or hides.

 

Socks? Do I smell socks? Sounds like someone just trying to stir things up.

 

I had a friend who was a new cacher who wanted to place a hide in a certain area. He whined and whined about another cacher who had the area "totally sewn up" and was "hogging it" to himself. (The other person had been caching for quite a while.) I got sick of the whining, went to the area, scouted it and then found a great spot that was .1 mile from any other cache and placed one there. The cache has been a great success and folks have liked it a lot. Needless to say that annoyed the whiner even more.

[+Annie & PB]

We live in a small town, in a small country. We have two very prolific cache hiders who hide in our area - in fact the two people in the WHOLE of our country who have the highest number of hides. Plus heaps of other keen cachers with a good few hides to their name. Every park, walking track, monument has its own cache. So, the scene if set for you --- right?

 

Somehow -- we have mananged to find 18 places so far (and plenty more ideas in the pipeline) to put caches. We have had to be creative, active, imaginative and sometimes just down right evil and devious as to our camo and puzzles. If anything over the 3 and a bit months that we have been geocaching, it has simply caused us to up the anti and become better hiders -- and we have we have caches out there now that our country's top finder has/is finding challenging.

 

So....... I don't see what the problem is myself .........

 

Annie

[Trinity's Crew]

Choose a park you like. Enter all the coordinates for caches in that park. Once you have found a decent spot check the distance on your GPS to the nearest cache (waypoint). If it's .10 or higher, you should be okay.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Instead of complaining about saturation why not ask for some help locating a place?

 

Tell us where you are (a zip code will work) and with a bit of map work I expect that I can find 5 interesting and available places within ten miles that perhaps you have overlooked.

 

That exercise might help you see a wider range of possibilities.

[+Snoogans]

What's wrong with having a limit and letting other people in?

 

What's wrong with going out and finding YOUR OWN spot to hide a cache rather than whining about someone else who got there before you?

[fuv90.7]

Thank you, Trinity's Crew.

 

 

Choose a park you like. Enter all the coordinates for caches in that park. Once you have found a decent spot check the distance on your GPS to the nearest cache (waypoint). If it's .10 or higher, you should be okay.

[Trinity's Crew]

Thank you, Trinity's Crew.

 

 

Choose a park you like. Enter all the coordinates for caches in that park. Once you have found a decent spot check the distance on your GPS to the nearest cache (waypoint). If it's .10 or higher, you should be okay.

You're welcome. I hope it helps. I forgot to mention that puzzle caches don't list the actual coordinates so you might still be too close without realizing it. Good luck!

[+NYPaddleCacher]

I have 200+ hides in this area and off of the top of my head, I have ideas for probably two dozen good spots that currently do not have caches. I'm also constantly surprised by the great spots my fellow locals come up with for caches.

200 plus? Heck, you're probably one of the turf hogs (s)he's complaining about!

 

That's not even close to the record. King Boreas, from the St. Paul, MN area has just over 1600 hides. I'm going to be in St. Paul on business in about a month and will be bringing along a King Boreas 1000th hide geocoin I picked up in a local cache. It's never been in any of his caches so I hope to drop it in one or even in the state of Minnesota.

[+Knight2000]

Wow... lots of unwarranted and mean spirited replies posted. I wasn't expecting that.

Expect it. Lots of unfriendly peeps here. (Many more that are not unfriendly.)But you already know that.

 

My best suggestion is read all about placing a cache. Think about it. You might be able to come up with something. When we were thinking about our first one we wanted to get the community involved. After talking to the appropriate people we were able to place a cache at the local police station and fire station.

 

I hope you can work it out. Sorry to hear about your friend.

 

I also do not think that there should be a limit. I can see how it is frustrating though. I would suggest on focusing on quality hides. It seems to many focus on quantity.

[Motorcycle_Mama]

Wow... lots of unwarranted and mean spirited replies posted. I wasn't expecting that.

No, no Socks, nor was I trying to stir anything up.

This was my first visit and post on the forum.

In answer to your question.....

I have found one or two caches, just never posted any comments before. I'm not very experienced with the way it all works yet and here's why:

My very best friend and I tried to place a cache a while ago and got shot down because it was too close to someone else's. Shortly after that, my friend found out he had colon cancer and the geocaching thing got sidelined. Unfortunately, he died last fall and in his honor, I wanted to place that same cache along with a Travel Bug we named 'Paddle to the Sea' after the book by Hollings which has special meaning for us. When I tried to find a spot, I noticed that almost every park around here is monopolized by two people. The parks aren't that big and I'm not experienced enough to get exactly so and so many inches from another one, nor do I have the time to keep placing and moving it.

What's wrong with having a limit and letting other people in?

Even if there was a limit, these cachers might still "take all the good spots". Limits really aren't the answer and wouldn't benefit the game.

 

Why not contact one or both of these other cachers and ask them for help placing your cache? Since you say they are so prolific, maybe they would have good ideas for a cache and cache location to honor your friend.

 

You admit that you aren't knowledgeable enough about the game and hiding so they might be a good resource. Your lack of knowledge and experience is also why you've received some of the responses you've received. Your previous cache submission didn't "get shot down". It didn't meet the guidelines.

 

Had you come in asking for help rather than complaining about something that you admit you don't have a lot of knowledge or information, you would likely have gotten a wealth of positive suggestions.

 

It's a huge world out there. And with a little thought and imagination, it's not difficult to come up with creative hides and caches. There's no way the every available location is taken up. As others have suggested, browse the cache maps for a while. Read a variety of cache pages. There's a wealth of information freely and readily available.

Edited March 15, 2008 by Motorcycle_Mama

[+gof1]

In your opening post you came in here (with near to zero caching experience) on the offensive. You wanted to change caching to suit your desires. Not the way to bring out the best in this crowd. Me included. You would have gotten a much more favorable response if you asked for help instead.

 

With your particular situation I would say you want to contact one of the cachers in question. It is quite possible, even probable, that one or both would be happy to work out a solution.

[+PhxChem]

Lots of unfriendly peeps here.

 

Compared to the rest of the internet.....it's a love-in here!!

[fuv90.7]

Thank you.

Yes, maybe it would help for the nasty posters to remember their first cache and how exciting and fun it was ~ both the finding and hiding.

I'm starting to regret this whole idea now but I don't give up easily, so I'll keep at it and try to find a good spot. It's important to me. My bf and I had a great time together hunting for our first cache and that's why I want to get 'Paddle' on his way. It's a way to stay close to him and I know he'd be thrilled that I did it. He was much better at using a GPS than I am.

I will only be putting out one cache in my lifetime, but the one I do put out will be a nice one.

All the best to you guys.

Bella

P.S. I was also thinking of maybe just putting Paddle into someone else's cache, just to get him going. We'll see.

 

Wow... lots of unwarranted and mean spirited replies posted. I wasn't expecting that.

Expect it. Lots of unfriendly peeps here. (Many more that are not unfriendly.)But you already know that.

 

My best suggestion is read all about placing a cache. Think about it. You might be able to come up with something. When we were thinking about our first one we wanted to get the community involved. After talking to the appropriate people we were able to place a cache at the local police station and fire station.

 

I hope you can work it out. Sorry to hear about your friend.

 

I also do not think that there should be a limit. I can see how it is frustrating though. I would suggest on focusing on quality hides. It seems to many focus on quantity.

[cloudyboy]

you may have forest in your area or you can but more than 2 cache in the same park no?

 

or why do not do the cache in your area and wait taht one was archived?

Edited March 15, 2008 by cloudyboy

[fuv90.7]

Thanks for your response and advice, MM.

 

You are right.. We didn't meet the guidelines.

 

I didn't come here with an agenda other than being frustrated and wanting to suggest that perhaps some people are over doing it.

I don't apologize for that.

I believe that sometimes 'less is more'. In my area, it's definitely overkill.

All the best to you.

 

 

Wow... lots of unwarranted and mean spirited replies posted. I wasn't expecting that.

No, no Socks, nor was I trying to stir anything up.

This was my first visit and post on the forum.

In answer to your question.....

I have found one or two caches, just never posted any comments before. I'm not very experienced with the way it all works yet and here's why:

My very best friend and I tried to place a cache a while ago and got shot down because it was too close to someone else's. Shortly after that, my friend found out he had colon cancer and the geocaching thing got sidelined. Unfortunately, he died last fall and in his honor, I wanted to place that same cache along with a Travel Bug we named 'Paddle to the Sea' after the book by Hollings which has special meaning for us. When I tried to find a spot, I noticed that almost every park around here is monopolized by two people. The parks aren't that big and I'm not experienced enough to get exactly so and so many inches from another one, nor do I have the time to keep placing and moving it.

What's wrong with having a limit and letting other people in?

Even if there was a limit, these cachers might still "take all the good spots". Limits really aren't the answer and wouldn't benefit the game.

 

Why not contact one or both of these other cachers and ask them for help placing your cache? Since you say they are so prolific, maybe they would have good ideas for a cache and cache location to honor your friend.

 

You admit that you aren't knowledgeable enough about the game and hiding so they might be a good resource. Your lack of knowledge and experience is also why you've received some of the responses you've received. Your previous cache submission didn't "get shot down". It didn't meet the guidelines.

 

Had you come in asking for help rather than complaining about something that you admit you don't have a lot of knowledge or information, you would likely have gotten a wealth of positive suggestions.

 

It's a huge world out there. And with a little thought and imagination, it's not difficult to come up with creative hides and caches. There's no way the every available location is taken up. As others have suggested, browse the cache maps for a while. Read a variety of cache pages. There's a wealth of information freely and readily available.

[fuv90.7]

That was the original place near where my bf was so he could maintain it. We removed it after being told it was too close to someone else's but then he got sick so we never got around to finding a new spot.

Now that he's gone, I want to put it nearer to me so I can do the maintaining.

I had already thought of putting Paddle into someone else's cache. May still do it. Thanks you for your thoughts.

Bella

The OP does own a TB. I can't imagine buying a TB for a sock account.... ???

 

Your travel bug has a stated beginning journey of the following:

 

"We are setting PTTS free on the highest point of Long island in New York, near the Atlantic Ocean."

 

If that's the location that you are scouting to place your cache, then no wonder you're having problems. I can't confirm your location or where you are trying to place your cache, but that's the best I can do. Perhaps you should start the TB on his journey in someone else's cache near there?

[Kyul_and_Carbon]

It was suggested to me to talk to one of the other cachers. Perhaps they would take one of theirs down if you explained why you wanted it in a certain location (memorium cache). If not, perhaps they would help you find a good and suiting spot for your cache.

 

I am sorry you are having these frustrations. While I live in a smaller city and I dont necessarily see a "monopoly" on who hides - we are definitely pretty saturated over here.

 

On a side note kinda related to this and people who have 1000+ hides.... Sure the base "limit" is only have as many as you can maintain SO.... do you all think that there will ever be an official "clean up" of junky, unmaintained caches?

 

I have ran into some caches that were just plain neglected and the only reason they were still there is because a muggle hadn't found them yet. These are the old rusty altoid cans, beat up and broken tupperware containers, and sadly taped film canisters. Of course, I think if a muggle did trash the cache, the owner wouldn't be anywhere around to actually archive it.

 

Dunno - has this ever been done? Do you think it will ever be done? A cleanup like this would not only open up areas to new hides and cache styles but kinda "spiff up" the face of caching in general. It would be a HUGE undertaking, but I have to admit, CITO applies to old, neglected caches as well... at least in my book. Get a responsible cache owner in and the neglected cache out.

 

OH, and before you all flame, I'm not saying that the OPs stated monopolizers ignore their caches or that anyone who has over 1000+ caches ignores them.... I'm talking IN GENERAL. No one specific.... not pointing fingers.... it was a thought.

 

*hides*

[fuv90.7]

No forests.. just small parks.

not to worry.... I'll find a way.

Thanks.

 

you may have forest in your area or you can but more than 2 cache in the same park no?

 

or why do not do the cache in your area and wait taht one was archived?

[+briansnat]

I didn't come here with an agenda other than being frustrated and wanting to suggest that perhaps some people are over doing it.

I don't apologize for that.

I believe that sometimes 'less is more'. In my area, it's definitely overkill.

All the best to you.

 

I personally don't care who hides the caches. If someone likes to hide a lot then its more for me to find.

 

You didn't say what Zipcode you are referring to that has these inconsiderate hiders.

 

Anyway, perhaps if you tell us what area you live in, some of the locals can help suggest some spots for your cache.

Edited March 15, 2008 by briansnat

[+HaLiJuSaPa]

Your forum name is a radio station in the Bronx (see my forum signature, the boro could actually use some MORE hides).....Fordham University to be precise. Is that where you're trying to hide? Believe me, no "saturation" issue here (and even if you're in any other part of the NY metro area, I don't really think there's a place where there's nowhere to hide a cache).

 

As others have asked, where are you trying to hide?

[fuv90.7]

Maybe one of the saturators would be willing to take a cache down, but I'll explore other avenues first. I'd hate to ask them to do that.

Thanks for your kind reply.

B

 

It was suggested to me to talk to one of the other cachers. Perhaps they would take one of theirs down if you explained why you wanted it in a certain location (memorium cache). If not, perhaps they would help you find a good and suiting spot for your cache.

 

I am sorry you are having these frustrations. While I live in a smaller city and I dont necessarily see a "monopoly" on who hides - we are definitely pretty saturated over here.

 

On a side note kinda related to this and people who have 1000+ hides.... Sure the base "limit" is only have as many as you can maintain SO.... do you all think that there will ever be an official "clean up" of junky, unmaintained caches?

 

I have ran into some caches that were just plain neglected and the only reason they were still there is because a muggle hadn't found them yet. These are the old rusty altoid cans, beat up and broken tupperware containers, and sadly taped film canisters. Of course, I think if a muggle did trash the cache, the owner wouldn't be anywhere around to actually archive it.

 

Dunno - has this ever been done? Do you think it will ever be done? A cleanup like this would not only open up areas to new hides and cache styles but kinda "spiff up" the face of caching in general. It would be a HUGE undertaking, but I have to admit, CITO applies to old, neglected caches as well... at least in my book. Get a responsible cache owner in and the neglected cache out.

 

OH, and before you all flame, I'm not saying that the OPs stated monopolizers ignore their caches or that anyone who has over 1000+ caches ignores them.... I'm talking IN GENERAL. No one specific.... not pointing fingers.... it was a thought.

 

*hides*

[+gof1]

Carbon N Kids

 

The problem you ask about has been discussed before. Do some searches, or start a new thread. The tools you need are out there.