Winter Caching Issues

[+Fireguy106]

I started this topic in the Geocaching Groups by Country section of the forums and thought I'd post some concerns here.

 

It seems, unless I just totally missed it, that the cache page icon "available in winter" doesn't necessarilly mean that one can find it during the winter months. Several persons commented that they assumed that this icon meant that one can actually find the cache. The problem lies that in many parts of our region, especially this year, there are areas burried under several metres of snow.

 

Would it be of any value to lobby for changes to have specific criteria for winter accessible (findable) caches which may include only caches hidden above a certain level or possibly a different icon to indicate if the cache may be affected by ground cover (snow)?

 

Any thoughts or experiences on the subject?

[+briansnat]

It seems, unless I just totally missed it, that the cache page icon "available in winter" doesn't necessarilly mean that one can find it during the winter months. Several persons commented that they assumed that this icon meant that one can actually find the cache.

 

I would agree with the latter group. I take the icon to mean that one should have a reasonable chance of finding it in the winter.

 

With very few exceptions, most caches are "available" in the winter.

[+NeoAddict]

When I see the icon listed, I assume that it would be reasonable to find the cache without some serious digging of snow or chipping of ice. I don't usually carry a shovel with when I go out winter Geocaching, lol.

[+gof1]

If you are looking for an ammo can take a stab at it. No, really, pick up a longish stick along the way and poke it around in the snow at GZ. When the stick hits the ammo can you'll know it. Few caches become unfindable in the winter, although the difficulty and terrain ratings can go WAY up.

[+StarBrand]

Until last year, I always took it to mean that the cache was in an area that you could "get to" during winter months. A discussion here in the forums changed my mind and I could see the difference. But I honestly just was taking it at face value - "available" is certainly different from findable.

[+infiniteMPG]

It seems, unless I just totally missed it, that the cache page icon "available in winter" doesn't necessarilly mean that one can find it during the winter months.

I always thought "available in winter" was for any Florida cache located near an airport with direct connecting flights to Canada and the northeast during the colder monthes

 

15mph wind today giving us the wind chill factor temperature of 78F

[+beejay&esskay]

It seems that it should be available. Findable is too subjective. Half the winter here there is no snow. Sometimes there is several feet. Is a micro at the base of a tree findable? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

 

And for some, 2 feet of snow won't keep them from finding it.

[Ferreter5]

Around here I usually take that attribute to mean that if there is two feet or less of snow on the ground, then finding the cache won't require any digging through the snow for the container.

[+hydnsek]

If you are looking for an ammo can take a stab at it. No, really, pick up a longish stick along the way and poke it around in the snow at GZ. When the stick hits the ammo can you'll know it. Few caches become unfindable in the winter, although the difficulty and terrain ratings can go WAY up.

That's not entirely true, at least here in the Pacific Northwest. Ammo cans at ground level can be encased in 2 feet of ice under several feet of snow. Thunking them with a stick is not an option. Assuming you can even locate the cache under all that, then there's the digging and ice-breaking that would need to happen.

 

For example, read the logs from last year (2007) on Skyline Lake - after two groups snowshoed in and couldn't locate the cache under 8 ft of snow, Criminal went back with shovel and ice axe and finally found it and broke it out of a solid ice block. Or Skyline View - check out my photos of the 8-ft trench we dug (and still a DNF). Both of these caches are good examples of the winter access vs. retrieval issue. Yes, you can snowshoe to both of these locations, but the caches aren't placed for winter retrieval, despite having the Available in Winter attribute. Fortunately, many other caches in our mountains have been placed with winter caching in mind.

 

Not that the "Not Available in Winter" icon always deters the determined. Check out last weekend's logs and pics for Hadley Falls. I'm glad I stayed home....

Edited March 11, 2008 by hydnsek

[+StarBrand]

.....Not that the "Not Available in Winter" icon always deters the determined. Check out last weekend's logs and pics for Hadley Falls. I'm glad I stayed home....

I know what you mean - a snowmobiler reported to me late ast month that one of my caches is under approx 25 feet of snow (record amounts this winter - Snowy Range of Wyoming - 10,800 feet). He knows because he thought he would run up and try to find it.

[+The Pathman]

Winter available around here means that you can find them. You might need to ski, snowshoe or snowmobile in to them but once there they will be findable without any digging.

I plan on placing at least one later this year that will be "Winter Available" and I will see to it that no matter how deep the snow gets it will still be findable

[+Fireguy106]

Having only started caching this past December, winter caching has given me the opportunity to see some good caches and provide me with some thoughts on how to place my first one so that it is "available". To me "available" should be, and I think most people I spoken or chatted with, should be something that can be found without digging.

The past few winters, we've been spoiled with little snow. This year reminded me of the winters back in my childhood. I can't remember seeing so much snow in our forests. I'm sure that some of the caches I tried to find this year were probably easily found last year and then maybe not.

 

I will be sure to place my winter available cache at least eye level. I would hate to disappoint anyone hiking, skiing or snowshoeing a great distance just to end up logging a DNF.

[+whistler & co.]

We too have lamented the ambiguity of the "available in winter" attribute. We usually choose interpret it to mean "findable in winter" (i.e. not at ground level), but when you think about it, there are no promises of findability in the phrase "available in winter." This then makes it an almost meaningless attribute because generally GZ is always "available" (i.e. one can walk, drive, ski, climb, snowshoe, ice skate) to the cache site regardless of any snow or ice there might be. Perhaps the attribute was meant to refer to seasonal availability along the lines of "Not available in winter: The Happy Camper RV park is closed from November 1 to April 1, so the cache will not be available and you will be cited for trespassing if you are caught on the Happy Camper property during winter months."

 

Perhaps the attribute should be changed to"winter friendly" which implies that one should be able to locate the cache when there is snow on the ground.

[+briansnat]

We too have lamented the ambiguity of the "available in winter" attribute. We usually choose interpret it to mean "findable in winter" (i.e. not at ground level), but when you think about it, there are no promises of findability in the phrase "available in winter." This then makes it an almost meaningless attribute because generally GZ is always "available" (i.e. one can walk, drive, ski, climb, snowshoe, ice skate) to the cache site regardless of any snow or ice there might be. Perhaps the attribute was meant to refer to seasonal availability along the lines of "Not available in winter: The Happy Camper RV park is closed from November 1 to April 1, so the cache will not be available and you will be cited for trespassing if you are caught on the Happy Camper property during winter months."

 

Perhaps the attribute should be changed to"winter friendly" which implies that one should be able to locate the cache when there is snow on the ground.

 

I always assumed that they meant "winter friendly" and just use a poor choice of words.

 

There is one attribute that says "stealth required". Now what if I find it at 2 am and nobody is around? Do I still have to act stealthy? Will the owner delete my find if I don't act stealthy?

 

My point is that you can't read too much into the actual wording. You need to consider intent. Since nearly all caches are "available in winter" an attribute that literally means that it is "available in winter" would be kind of dumb. So I've always taken it to mean that you can reasonably find the cache in the snow. So actually rather than "available in winter" or "winter friendly" it probably should say "snow friendly".

Edited March 12, 2008 by briansnat

[+whistler & co.]

My point is that you can't read too much into the actual wording. You need to consider intent. Since nearly all caches are "available in winter" an attribute that literally means that it is "available in winter" would be kind of dumb. So I've always taken it to mean that you can reasonably find the cache in the snow. So actually rather than "available in winter" or "winter friendly" it probably should say "snow friendly".

 

I hate it when people don't say what they mean or don't mean what they say. Our language is so rich and varied that precision should be the norm rather than the exception. Ambiguity is a waste of time!

[+The Friendly Ghosts]

Glad to see I am not the only one with this problem. We JUST started caching... this week actually. We went out with a shovel- dug about 4-5 feet on some and gave up. It WAS an ammo box we were looking for, but even with poking the shovel into the ground completely, we still didn't hit bottom! The snow is DEEP here in some places(this was in a ditch!). There SHOULD be an icon that says "BRING A SHOVEL"!!!

[+Fireguy106]

Yes, I totally agree that there should be something else indicating that the cache may be buried under ice or snow.

 

I've put this topic on a few other groups and I'm pretty much getting the same response. I think a few have, I don't like to use the word offended and this was not intended to offend anyone putting in the time and energy to set up a cache, but I guess for some I hit a nerve and they disagree which I have no problem with and yes chances are you may have to log a DNF because of certain circumstances especially during the winter months in snow regions, but I believe that there should be an indicator of some sort to this fact that there is a chance that the cache may be burried. Driving a great distance because of the vagueness of a cache description isn't my idea of enjoyment. At least indicate that it's found on the ground. I take more care in trying to determine if it is a ground based cache, they don't all indicate this and some clues are vague, prior to going out. Given the amount of snow we've had this year, sounds like most of the Northern US and Canada is in the same boat, any hint of a ground cache and I won't even look at it. On the plus side, it will given me more to look for in the spring.

[+briansnat]

Yes, I totally agree that there should be something else indicating that the cache may be buried under ice or snow

 

Owners can use the "not available in winter" attrtribute, or you can assume that if the "available in winter" attribute is not selected, it's probably not easy to find under snow.

[Radman Forever]

Owners can use the "not available in winter" attrtribute, or you can assume that if the "available in winter" attribute is not selected, it's probably not easy to find under snow.

 

I've done that for caches located in Northern Michigan that are more than a half a mile down a two-track road that is almost impossible to get down to.

 

I also mention if a cache is winter accessible or is at least a big enough container that can be found by poking through the snow (like a giant water container).

 

Maybe I should go back and see if all of my caches need the icon or not.

[+Fireguy106]

Again, there seems to be varying opinions on this matter and I believe it is something that needs clarification for both sides not that one is right and the other is wrong. I think there just needs to be something in place to define the icon "available in winter".

 

I've made a "request for description review" on the Geocaching.com Web Site Group so if you have any suggestions, please add them to the post. The only way to get clarification is to get GC to lay down some parameters or to simply define the icon so that it is clear for everyone.

[+briansnat]

Again, there seems to be varying opinions on this matter and I believe it is something that needs clarification for both sides not that one is right and the other is wrong. I think there just needs to be something in place to define the icon "available in winter".

 

The overwhelming majority of people I've discussed this issue with are of the opinion that the icon means that you have a reasonable chance of finding the cache with snow on the ground.

[+StarBrand]

Again, there seems to be varying opinions on this matter and I believe it is something that needs clarification for both sides not that one is right and the other is wrong. I think there just needs to be something in place to define the icon "available in winter".

 

The overwhelming majority of people I've discussed this issue with are of the opinion that the icon means that you have a reasonable chance of finding the cache with snow on the ground.

I can't find it now but Jeremy and I once discussed this in the forums and he had trouble understanding why I saw it as anything but 'findable' in the snow.

 

That changed my mind. And I now know for sure how he felt about it and the intended meaning.

[kevrab]

Living in Michigan I like to hike in the woods during winter and also I like to snowshoe. I've found two caches this winter that were complete ice blocks (on the ground tupperware caches) and couldn't be opened. If these were my caches I'd want to take better care because when they thaw they probably aren't going to be in the best of shape.

That said if you place a cache on the ground where you know it'll be covered with snow once winter hits you should describe as such. The cache owner knows, or should know, the area and how much snow is received and how accessible the cache will be in a normal winter.

I'm pretty new to geocaching and I'm just gaining experience and want to start putting out a couple caches of my own but when I do I want to make them available year round so I'll do my homework and put them at waist or eye level out of the "snow zone".

Edited March 13, 2008 by kevrab

[+briansnat]

I can't find it now but Jeremy and I once discussed this in the forums and he had trouble understanding why I saw it as anything but 'findable' in the snow.

 

Many people are literalists. If you say "available in winter" then that's what they will go with. They don't reason or consider intent.

 

I can see why certain people would be confused, but if anybody really thinks it through an "available in winter" attribute taken literally would be as useful as an "available in daytime" attribute.

[+Fireguy106]

I can't find it now but Jeremy and I once discussed this in the forums and he had trouble understanding why I saw it as anything but 'findable' in the snow.

 

Many people are literalists. If you say "available in winter" then that's what they will go with. They don't reason or consider intent.

 

I can see why certain people would be confused, but if anybody really thinks it through an "available in winter" attribute taken literally would be as useful as an "available in daytime" attribute.

 

Wouldn't this just be another reason why GC should give "guidance" by explaining what is expected by the term? I doesn't matter to me which way their definition of the icon goes just so long as I know what is meant by available in winter. Simply looking for clarification. I think thats all everyone cares about.

[+simplyred]

Do a bit of research on the cache before you go and usually you'll have a better idea if it's attainable or not. By reading past logs usually gives a good indication. Some caches are not attainable in spring because water levels may be high and flowing, do we need attributes stating "not available in spring". Some research and common sense will go a long way, no need to change anything.

[+Fireguy106]

True, but some of the caches I've done recently haven't been visited since November. At that time, we had no snow here. I guess I could have gone back farther in the logs to see. Again, this year we've had lots of snow compared to the last, 10 years or so. Many call it unusually more but this is more of a traditional winter.

Anyway, that's why I've posted, to get a take on the situation from others. thanks!

[metherk]

I had another cacher email me a picture of one of my hides encased in solid ice with the corner of the container sticking up. He asked if he could still log it as a find even through he could not sign the log book. I told him yes and he agreed to sign the log book when it thaws.